Jill Duggar Counting the Cost

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I really hope that a bevy of Eliot Ness like FBI and IRS agents descend upon James Robert Duggar like the plague that he so richly deserves!

Right?  If what she says is true there will at the very least be an investigation, right?

[Pam in CT]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

Please spoil the drive!

Sorry, will delete.

[Ottakee]

18 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Jill has been fiercely protective of her siblings' privacy in this matter. I don't know that she can clear up the sequence of events without bringing them into it. I am pretty certain since Joy was on her "buddy team", which is code for " Joy's real mother", she is willing to let people think what they think than hurt the other victims by discussing it in detail and bringing even more focus to it.

The interview was concocted by JB and Megan Kelly, and the girls were under TLC contract to follow the script. She didn't have a choice about what she said in that interview, and Josh was kept off screen but in their line of vision which I can only imagine was for intimidation purposes. Sick. I really hope that a bevy of Eliot Ness like FBI and IRS agents descend upon James Robert Duggar like the plague that he so richly deserves!

 

I get this.  With my own blog, I told the truth but many details were left out to protect the victims.  It is a fine line between telling the truth of what happened and not giving too many details that affect other people.

[AbcdeDooDah]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

I’m 32nd on the wait list for it. 
 

OK, I’m giving in. Kindle, here I come.

Same. 

Just finished Chapter 1. I am craving pickles now and we don’t have any😭

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

Sorry, will delete.

No don't delete, just tell me the spoiler. Please!

[freesia]

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

No don't delete, just tell me the spoiler. Please!

 

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

No don't delete, just tell me the spoiler. Please!

@prairiewindmomma posted the spoilers. Right before the one you quoted is probably the one about the midnight car ride. Click on the little eye icon to see it. 

[prairiewindmomma]

The midnight car ride issue is when Michelle drops off papers at Jill’s door.

Did Michelle sneak away and do this without JB knowing? If so, what happened to her when JB found out? If JB sent her, why the midnight delivery? Why then when he so adamantly refused to for months and months on end? Why didn’t he have his fixer, Chad, (who has strong Huckabee connections, and a firm that does fixing) handle it with her attorney? Or directly to her at a reasonable time?

Michelle is complicated, right? She clearly seems to disassociate a lot, she’s been manipulated by JB since she was 17, we know she has a history of eating disorders and anxiety, we know she has done things on demand of JB she didn’t want to do…..and also she’s an enabler of JB’s narcissism, and she parentified her children, and she has been pretty terrible in her own right. Jill clearly views her with rose colored glasses—is that because Jill is protecting herself emotionally from the fallout of really contemplating her mother’s actions (I did this for a long while, I get it)? Or does she consider Michelle more of a victim trapped in JB’s web? JB clearly has anger issues. Has it gone physical also? Like Bobye Holt ended up with a ten year restraining order. Ten years is almost unheard of. And I pictured JB as worse than Mr. Holt…

[DawnM]

What exactly happened with the Bobye Holt thing?   Everything I read is vague.    Anyone know?

[prairiewindmomma]

The records of the facts behind the restraining order remain closed, as is common in a lot of DV situations. One of her sons filed a similar action just before she did. 

Most of the other timeline of surrounding details is out there: https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/shiny-happy-people-duggar-family-secrets-arkansas-judge-grants-bobye-holt-order-protection-against-jim-holt-following-docuseries-involvement.html/

[DawnM]

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The records of the facts behind the restraining order remain closed, as is common in a lot of DV situations. One of her sons filed a similar action just before she did. 

Most of the other timeline of surrounding details is out there: https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/shiny-happy-people-duggar-family-secrets-arkansas-judge-grants-bobye-holt-order-protection-against-jim-holt-following-docuseries-involvement.html/

Thanks.  That is what I saw as well.

[prairiewindmomma]

NM

Edited September 13, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[Katy]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The midnight car ride issue is when Michelle drops off papers at Jill’s door.

Did Michelle sneak away and do this without JB knowing? If so, what happened to her when JB found out? If JB sent her, why the midnight delivery? Why then when he so adamantly refused to for months and months on end? Why didn’t he have his fixer, Chad, (who has strong Huckabee connections, and a firm that does fixing) handle it with her attorney? Or directly to her at a reasonable time?

Michelle is complicated, right? She clearly seems to disassociate a lot, she’s been manipulated by JB since she was 17, we know she has a history of eating disorders and anxiety, we know she has done things on demand of JB she didn’t want to do…..and also she’s an enabler of JB’s narcissism, and she parentified her children, and she has been pretty terrible in her own right. Jill clearly views her with rose colored glasses—is that because Jill is protecting herself emotionally from the fallout of really contemplating her mother’s actions (I did this for a long while, I get it)? Or does she consider Michelle more of a victim trapped in JB’s web? JB clearly has anger issues. Has it gone physical also? Like Bobye Holt ended up with a ten year restraining order. Ten years is almost unheard of. And I pictured JB as worse than Mr. Holt…

Thanks, I read it now. I think JB sent her over. It was in the final few days of their lawyer’s deadline and JB made at least one additional attempt to get them to fire the lawyer and sign an NDA before they finally won. From my understanding from verified Ask Me Anything answers on the Duggar Snark Subreddit, the whole family stays up very late. Everyone typically goes to bed between 2-4am late. 

I’m pretty sure Katie Joy from Without a Crystal Ball once posted video of JB speaking positively about marital discipline in a marriage conference. So yes, it probably has gotten physical.

My guess is that Jill always felt Michelle’s love. Similar love languages probably. And because she was compliant and liked to help she hasn’t processed that child labor and parentification are abusive yet. And frankly because she is unlikely to have a girl at this point, she might never process that on an emotional level. 

Frankly my parents weren’t particularly religious until I was an adult. I was in a long line of parentified oldest daughters. I don’t think I understood how wrong that was until we started learning about foster care. And frankly even in foster care I’ve seen social workers justify it to an alarming degree just to reunite families that should not be reunited at all. “Oh, she’s 8. If she were 9 I could argue she’s old enough to take care of her little sister but 8 is too young in this state.”

And also from WACB, the Holt thing apparently involved an adult son making Bobbye choose to file charges against his dad or he would file charges against her too. I don’t remember all the details but I think it was a felony level assault that required hospitalization. 

[KeriJ]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Michelle is complicated, right? She clearly seems to disassociate a lot, she’s been manipulated by JB since she was 17, we know she has a history of eating disorders and anxiety, we know she has done things on demand of JB she didn’t want to do…..and also she’s an enabler of JB’s narcissism, and she parentified her children, and she has been pretty terrible in her own right. Jill clearly views her with rose colored glasses—is that because Jill is protecting herself emotionally from the fallout of really contemplating her mother’s actions (I did this for a long while, I get it)? Or does she consider Michelle more of a victim trapped in JB’s web? JB clearly has anger issues. Has it gone physical also? Like Bobye Holt ended up with a ten year restraining order. Ten years is almost unheard of. And I pictured JB as worse than Mr. Holt…

I have an aunt and uncle who are very similar.  My cousin considers her mom somewhat responsible,  but mostly feels her mom is a victim. It's super scary to go against your husband in that world!

[Faith-manor]

WOACB, Katie Joy, is not someone whose word is worth taking. She has been caught making up some egregious lies. She is suspected of being the anonymous source for "The Sun" and all of their endless speculation.

About the tax fraud, I just have to say, the level of "I am untouchable" narcissism from JimBob is just profound. Derrick has a Bachelor's degree in accounting and worked in accounting for Walmart. Of all the people to use in a tax scheme, an accountant is just beyond imagination. The sad thing is that Derrick was allowing JB's "accountant" which I think we can safely call, "JB's fixer" or Michael Cohen wannabe, to do their taxes while he was in law school. If he had been doing their taxes, he would have realized what was happening. And because of that fraudulent claim on their income, he was shut out of financial aid for law school.

I actually kind of think JB is so convinced that he is not accountable to anyone or anything, that it is only a matter of time before he makes an actionable threat to them over this book...to his son in law, a county assistant D.A. who by virtue of job has some serious connections.

Does Seagoville house financial fraud felons? Karma. Josh and JimBob as roomies in the federal penitentiary would be the chickens coming home to roost.

[Faith-manor]

I don't have much sympathy for Michelle. I really don't. She beat her babies. She beat them and terrorized them, and she handed Josie over to her 18 year old daughter to be raised from the moment Josie came home from the hospital, a medically fragile preemie with a seizure disorders called it "Jose's glitches", and rushed to film Jackson when he fell into the orchestra pit and was injured, laughing at him while Jackson's sister mom took care of him. I know women who have been victims of DV at the hands of men like JB. You know what? Not one of them beat and terrorized their babies. Not one laughed at their children's pain. I know women who stayed with evil men so that their children would not be subjected to unsupervised visitation. And despite their trauma, they didn't beat their babies. 

For me, Michelle crossed lines so egregious that regardless of what she has suffered, she does not receive any compassion from me. Same with Debi Pearl. She married an evil bastard, but she didn't have to join him in physically terrorizing little babies and toddlers. She didn't. She did have a choice. These men go off to work, go off to be with friends. In their absence, these women still chose to do these things.

It is sad to me that Jill still panders for her mother's love and affection. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Katy]

25 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

WOACB, Katie Joy, is not someone whose word is worth taking. She has been caught making up some egregious lies. She is suspected of being the anonymous source for "The Sun" and all of their endless speculation.

I know you don’t like her, but I’ve never heard or seen anything to that effect except from people complaining on reddit that she reported on something posted there too. She tries to take down a few different religiously abusive cults, one being the IBLP. While I’ve been watching her over the past few years, her named sources have included Derrick, Amy, Deanna, Jed’s wife Katey’s brother, the Holts, and a handful of friends of the lost boys. 

The only named people I’ve seen accuse her of being a liar are Meri Brown before she gave up on Kody and that blonde reality show guy whose name escapes me who’s now in prison. Was it Todd Krissley? Chrisley? The lawsuits against her have been dismissed. And in Todd’s case her source was his daughter. 

The un-named sources with strange claims she quoted have either turned out to be true in Josh’s trial or probably came from Derrick since they were backed up with Jill’s book. 

[idnib]

Just spent an audible credit on it and I have an hour and a half wait for DD this afternoon so good timing.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/09/jill-duggar-tells-her-side-of-the-story
 

Interesting to me is that Anna has rebuffed all Jill’s efforts to have a relationship.

Jill clearly knows and accepts that Josh is guilty—she said point blank the safest place for both Josh and society is him being in prison for an extended period of time.  I doubt Anna has accepted this herself and doesn’t want relationships with people who don’t believe in Josh’s “innocence.”

[prairiewindmomma]

I wonder to what degree IBLP notions about generational sin play into the family dynamics. JB’s dad spent time in prison in the 80s, was an abusive alcoholic, and Mary (JB’s mom) never left her kids unattended in his presence—-presumably because of alleged sexual abuse perpetrated by her husband. 
 

(I am not in any way trying to excuse behavior/abuse.)

 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I wonder to what degree IBLP notions about generational sin play into the family dynamics. JB’s dad spent time in prison in the 80s, was an abusive alcoholic, and Mary (JB’s mom) never left her kids unattended in his presence—-presumably because of alleged sexual abuse perpetrated by her husband. 
 

(I am not in any way trying to excuse behavior/abuse.)

 

I doubt JB would ever blame anyone on his side of the family, especially a man. But I would not put it past him to blame Michelle because before she converted, as a teen, she dated, kissed boys, was a cheerleader. He alluded to it, though he did not say it outright, at Big Sandy conference post Ashley Madison. In IBLP, it exceptionally rare for a man to have any accountability. It is always women, always their fault, always female scapegoats. They even blame little girls for being "attractive" to men, then turn around and tell girls they have to be attractive to men so they can win a husband. It is twisted and vile. My sister was told when she was 8 that she couldn't wear sleeveless tops in the summer anymore because she would be tempting men into sin. The official "counseling" materials 💩, the victims of sexual assault are supposed to ask forgiveness of the perpetrators for tempting them, and if they do not, they are damned to hell because god cannot forgive them if they don't admit their sinful participation in the assault.

And frankly, the cult And theDuggar parents likely blame Anna for not satisfying Josh's "needs". As Josh put it before his wedding, " He was finally getting 'a working model'." That was the sole reason they bargained with the Kellers to get her. In their minds, if she did her "job", Josh would be cured.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I absolutely think JB blames women.  But I really wonder if Michelle blames JB's family.

[Ginevra]

Just adding my thoughts, apropos of nobody’s previous post:

I can appreciate how mixed the feelings could be/have been for Jill, especially early on. She didn’t get to pick and fall in love with her husband like a normal young woman, yet…she did get a good one. She lucked out so much more than Jessa, who AFAICT had nothing of his own to offer and just became JBs errand boy. Jill got the jackpot in getting Derrick, even if she got yelled at for riding a snow sled with him when she was twenty years old. 
 

Even just looking back on a life where you were protected from a lot of crap by being forbidden to explore - there’s an upside to that, I can say experientially. It was similar for me, though not to the same degree, and I am glad I never did a lot of the things others did, never had to pay the piper for doing those things, don’t even have a mental catalog of TV shows and movies where teens were having sex and using drugs and getting wasted. None of that was allowed in my home so I had no experience of it. 
 

Im sure there is some of that for Jill, too, but magnified a lot by extremes. 

[Clarita]

23 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Even just looking back on a life where you were protected from a lot of crap by being forbidden to explore - there’s an upside to that, I can say experientially. It was similar for me, though not to the same degree, and I am glad I never did a lot of the things others did, never had to pay the piper for doing those things, don’t even have a mental catalog of TV shows and movies where teens were having sex and using drugs and getting wasted. None of that was allowed in my home so I had no experience of it. 

I thought she was molested by her brother. I don't think allowing that is shielding your daughter from anything.  

[Ginevra]

12 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I thought she was molested by her brother. I don't think allowing that is shielding your daughter from anything.  

She was; I’m sorry, I’m not talking about that. I am talking about all the Gothard strictures. And the courtship thing. I mean, I don’t expect her whole life revolves around that abuse. 
 

I suffered in similar ways, and I think there is a direct line from that type of parental control and then being preyed upon by narcs. But I can be really sorry about that part and still be glad I never went down the path of addiction or criminal behavior or lots of exploits with my body. I expect Jill has thoughts about that too. 
 

And, she was paired up with a guy not of her own volition. I think that sucks. However, she got a good one. So that’s fortunate. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Ginevra
Toned down my word choice

[Danae]

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

Even just looking back on a life where you were protected from a lot of crap by being forbidden to explore - there’s an upside to that, I can say experientially. It was similar for me, though not to the same degree, and I am glad I never did a lot of the things others did, never had to pay the piper for doing those things, don’t even have a mental catalog of TV shows and movies where teens were having sex and using drugs and getting wasted. None of that was allowed in my home so I had no experience of it. 
 

Im sure there is some of that for Jill, too, but magnified a lot by extremes. 

I mean, I definitely read some inappropriate books as a pre-teen, and once flipping through TV channels when my parents weren’t home I got an eyeful that I still remember 40 years later.

But I’d a million times rather have that memory along with the generally healthy attitude toward sex and relationships that my family taught than the control-freak-to-sex-abuse pipeline that is the IBLP system. 

[Lecka]

It’s not fair to expect things to be 100% bad when it’s more complicated than that a lot of the time.  I do agree with that sentiment.  It doesn’t excuse things to acknowledge that, I think.  Unless people are excusing things, which also happens, but I think there’s room to say there were major issues but not everything was bad, and in fact some things were good or have become special memories or positive parts of someone’s identity.  
 

Edit:  I think it just depends and nobody should say “here’s what you should think” but people can feel like there’s a lot of nuance.  
 

This is hard for me, but I can’t just say “but remember this and this and this that was so messed up and wrong” if someone is thinking “that’s my mom and there were good things, too, and I get to remember the good things, too.”  

Edited September 15, 2023 by Lecka

[Pam in CT]

41 minutes ago, Lecka said:

... Edit:  I think it just depends and nobody should say “here’s what you should think” but people can feel like there’s a lot of nuance.  

This.

Even if we have experienced [d, e, f] and [x, y, z] that are quite similar to another person, we cannot possibly know the a, b, c, and g - w of their experiences. And even close-in-age siblings live through the same FOO and come out processing the same dynamics and events differently. Both positive and negative events "land" with different people different ways, and processing takes different forms and timeframes with different people.

[catz]

I just finished the audio book.  I am probably going to listen to it again because I ripped through it so fast.  

Some things that struck me in context of this latest discussion is how young Jill is yet. She is just 32 years old.  So this book is coming around while she is still a very young mother and still in therapy and still processing.  The book she would write and what she identifies as formative may evolve assuming she continues to process.  As her own kids grow, she will continue to processes her own childhood and upbringing.  I certainly feel that way now having young adult kids.

I think it's good is there are things she will talk about and things that are not open for discussion.  She owns her story and experiences and it's not easy to reclaim autonomy in that cult setting.  In these communities, I have ZERO doubt there are stories that will never see the light of day.  Do I think Josh and Gothard are likely unique among ILBP men?  No.  I found the part where she mentioned Jana being a "Gothard" type chilling  

What I absolutely don't think was good that was never clearly stated is that these kids childhoods and privacy were blatantly sold and exploited by their parents.  If were up to JB, he'd still be selling their adulthoods.  I think it's nice Jill some positive relationships with her mom and siblings and they are still working together as a family to evolve relationships.   JB doesn't strike me as the reflective and apologetic type.  Putting your family out on parade as a ministry and example while protecting a pedophile at home is just beyond the pale.  The part where Jill talked about JB caring more about Josh's privacy than hers made me so angry.  

I was a precocious reader and didn't have a lot of limits in terms of books or media.  Honestly, it made me a more empathetic, broader thinking person for the most part.   Yes, I did watch and read some less quality stuff but it didn't strike me as damaging or formative at all.  I just really don't see how that ties in here at all.  

 

[Ginevra]

13 minutes ago, catz said:

The part where Jill talked about JB caring more about Josh's privacy than hers made me so angry.  

Me too. 

[maize]

Jill clearly cares very much about protecting what privacy is left to her siblings; I appreciated that she was not out to air all of the family's dirty laundry and cause even further re-traumatization. I thought the narrative was well-crafted and sounded sincere--she and the ghost writer both did a good job.

I don't at all doubt that there were plenty of good parts to her childhood. We humans like to pigeon-hole people and their behavior as "good" or "bad" but people are always complex mixtures of both.

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Ginevra said:

She was; I’m sorry, I’m not talking about that. I am talking about all the Gothard strictures. And the courtship thing. I mean, I don’t expect her whole life revolves around that abuse. 
 

I suffered in similar ways, and I think there is a direct line from that type of parental control and then being preyed upon by narcs. But I can be really sorry about that part and still be glad I never went down the path of addiction or criminal behavior or lots of exploits with my body. I expect Jill has thoughts about that too. 
 

And, she was paired up with a guy not of her own volition. I think that sucks. However, she got a good one. So that’s fortunate. 

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but the vast majority of people don’t go down the path of addiction or criminal behavior or lots of exploits of their bodies, despite not being raised in a super strict religion with high parental control. One doesn’t need to be raised in a super strict religion, or any religion at all, in order to make good, healthy, mature decisions. 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Even just looking back on a life where you were protected from a lot of crap by being forbidden to explore - there’s an upside to that, I can say experientially. It was similar for me, though not to the same degree, and I am glad I never did a lot of the things others did, never had to pay the piper for doing those things, don’t even have a mental catalog of TV shows and movies where teens were having sex and using drugs and getting wasted. None of that was allowed in my home so I had no experience of it. 

I think you have a warped view of the experiences and behavior of others not raised in a strict religion with high parental control. It sounds a lot like prior discussions on this board where some very religious people think one can’t possibly be moral or raise moral children without God. Lots of people raised in homes with little or no religion don’t do drugs, get wasted, or have teenage sex. Just lots lots of kids raised in super strict religious homes do all of those things, including getting pregnant or getting arrested.

I think it’s fine to be thankful that you weren’t exposed to certain things or didn’t experience certain things, but I think you seem to be overgeneralizing  about the experiences of those raised differently. Plus, you may not be giving yourself enough credit for having the ability to make good, mature decisions even if you hadn’t been raised in such a sheltered and controlling environment.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Frances

[Catwoman]

6 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Even just looking back on a life where you were protected from a lot of crap by being forbidden to explore - there’s an upside to that, I can say experientially. It was similar for me, though not to the same degree, and I am glad I never did a lot of the things others did, never had to pay the piper for doing those things, don’t even have a mental catalog of TV shows and movies where teens were having sex and using drugs and getting wasted. None of that was allowed in my home so I had no experience of it. 

Or maybe what you consider to be an upside is something that others would consider to be a huge negative. I would have felt absolutely stifled in an environment like you describe. Most of the teens I knew were allowed to watch all kinds of TV shows and movies, and it doesn't seem to have hurt any of us. 

It almost sounds like you felt morally superior to the other teens who were watching movies and TV shows that you didn't approve of. And why would it be a problem to have a "mental catalog" of movies and TV shows where teens were having sex and getting wasted? It's not like everyone who saw those shows or movies rushed right out to have sex and do drugs. Honestly, the most promiscuous and wild girl I knew in high school was a pastor's daughter, and her parents kept her extremely sheltered from anything but wholesome TV shows and movies. They had very strict rules, but she was very good at finding ways around them.

 

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but the vast majority of people don’t go down the path of addiction or criminal behavior or lots of exploits of their bodies, despite not being raised in a super strict religion with high parental control. One doesn’t need to be raised in a super strict religion, or any religion at all, in order to make good, healthy, mature decisions. 

Yup. I had Liberal atheist parents, one of them Queer, both employed in the Arts, relaxed about information and bodies.

Me - leaning teetotal,  never addicted, still with the same man after 35 years. Raised my kids similarly. 

[Ginevra]

Geez, guys. I’m sorry I said anything. I would delete it except that it’s quoted a bunch of times anyway. 
 

My parents could have done better. Jill’s parents could have done better. But it wasn’t all bad. That, plus Jill lucking out in Derrick is all I meant. 

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

Geez, guys. I’m sorry I said anything. I would delete it except that it’s quoted a bunch of times anyway. 
 

My parents could have done better. Jill’s parents could have done better. But it wasn’t all bad. That, plus Jill lucking out in Derrick is all I meant. 

I think you're still processing things in your own life, and I'm honestly glad you didn't delete.  The things you wrote, and the responses to them give you more information about how the rest of us were raised/are raising our own kids and make it not so black and white.

I grew up in a house that just didn't discuss taboo subjects beyond "don't do them, it's a sin."  That experience led me to parent my own kids in a way that is more respectful and balanced: "hey, here are these things.  Here are common pitfalls.  Here are our own experiences with the things. Here's some possible plans, and ideas for you.  Let's talk."  It means I've gotten texts at 2am of a young adult getting out of a bad situation and picked up my kid in the middle of the afternoon when he wasn't comfortable. They've never had to hide things, but know they always have mentors around them. 

There were a lot of secrets in my family growing up.  Things we didn't discuss.  I had no idea how to adult when I left, and I think that was worse for me than a slow ramp up of age appropriate discussions and television would have been.

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

Geez, guys. I’m sorry I said anything. I would delete it except that it’s quoted a bunch of times anyway. 
 

My parents could have done better. Jill’s parents could have done better. But it wasn’t all bad. That, plus Jill lucking out in Derrick is all I meant. 

I grew up in a similar household to you.   Christian school, super conservative (maybe not Duggar conservative, but close enough), and I can point out a LOT of things that were wrong, but there are a lot of good things about my childhood as well, and Jill is probably talking about all the joy she had with her siblings and family time.   The kids did have fun together from what I could see on the show.

I rejected a lot of what I grew up with.   I didn't leave Christianity, but I don't think dancing or wine are the great evils.   I wasn't allowed either growing up and my parents still thought both were a sin when they died

[maize]

2 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Geez, guys. I’m sorry I said anything. I would delete it except that it’s quoted a bunch of times anyway. 
 

My parents could have done better. Jill’s parents could have done better. But it wasn’t all bad. That, plus Jill lucking out in Derrick is all I meant. 

When I was in the Air Force everyone knew I was a Latter-day Saint because I didn't drink when everyone else did. I remember several of my friends and acquaintances at the time asking me about the religious guidelines I followed and telling me they wished they had had similar guidelines to follow growing up because they could have avoided a lot of pain. 

I did feel protected by the guidelines of my religion. I still do. I attended high school in a location where drinking was legal for teenagers and excessive drinking was actually a huge issue among my peers. I  had one friend in particular who really struggled with navigating peer pressure to do many things she hadn't intended to do--I knew her struggles because she would talk about them with me. She had personal convictions and parental guidance,  but they didn't have the same protections my religious convictions did and she repeatedly ended up doing stuff-- sometimes stuff with long-term negative consequences--she had meant to avoid. There were two ways that my religious convictions protected me: 1--they were backed by deep, personal conviction that I was following the will of a God that I believed in and trusted, something that was more significant to me than following the expectations of my peers, and 2--my peers themselves recognized and respected the significance of my religious convictions and protected them as well by avoiding pressuring me to behave in ways that were outside of those standards.   That actually seemed to be the biggest difference between my experience and that of my friend who had far more pressure put on her to go along with the crowd. 

My parents,  like all parents,  were not perfect and I don't parent exactly as they did (for better or worse!) but I have never regretted growing up with what seemed and still seems to me to be protective standards and guidelines. 

[City Mouse]

5 hours ago, Ginevra said:

opps, I erased the quote and don’t want to fix it, but it was just the statement that it wasn’t all bad.

I don’t want to pick on you or your parents, but this part stuck out to me. There are probably a few kids whose entire childhood was “all bad”, but most kids raised in abusive home, or who experienced abuse at the hands of family members, can pick out specific events or times that “weren’t all bad”. Most kids still love their parents and want parent approval even after experiencing abuse. That is evident on these boards from all the threads where people talk about their narcissistic parents. I think that is a really low bar with which to judge a parent-child relationship. 

Religious conservatism doesn’t have to be abusive (I don’t really know, I am just assuming). In the case of the Duggars, I think the religious aspect of their family has been used by certain members of the family to as a smoke screen to cover up the abuse, but even if the family had not chosen those religious beliefs, the abusive people would still have been abusive, just maybe in different ways, but maybe the adult children would have had the resources to get away from the abuse earlier. Maybe the abusers would have faced consequences earlier. However, that is a whole lot of  maybes.

Edited September 15, 2023 by City Mouse

[Lady Florida.]

9 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Honestly, the most promiscuous and wild girl I knew in high school was a pastor's daughter, and her parents kept her extremely sheltered from anything but wholesome TV shows and movies. They had very strict rules, but she was very good at finding ways around them.

 

Yep. When I went away to college most of my new college friends and I tended to do things that our new found freedom allowed, things that wouldn't be allowed at home. However, the only one who went overboard was the pastor's daughter. Unlike the rest of us, she had trouble self regulating because everything was regulated for her externally up until then. We knew when and how to reel ourselves back in but she didn't.

[Faith-manor]

4 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I think you're still processing things in your own life, and I'm honestly glad you didn't delete.  The things you wrote, and the responses to them give you more information about how the rest of us were raised/are raising our own kids and make it not so black and white.

I grew up in a house that just didn't discuss taboo subjects beyond "don't do them, it's a sin."  That experience led me to parent my own kids in a way that is more respectful and balanced: "hey, here are these things.  Here are common pitfalls.  Here are our own experiences with the things. Here's some possible plans, and ideas for you.  Let's talk."  It means I've gotten texts at 2am of a young adult getting out of a bad situation and picked up my kid in the middle of the afternoon when he wasn't comfortable. They've never had to hide things, but know they always have mentors around them. 

There were a lot of secrets in my family growing up.  Things we didn't discuss.  I had no idea how to adult when I left, and I think that was worse for me than a slow ramp up of age appropriate discussions and television would have been.

Same. My dad's "talk" with my 13 year old brother was , "Do you know why we are taking the boy dog to visit the girl dog?" Brother: "Geez, dad of course!" "In Dad: " Okay then". That was that. Nothing else. I got even LESS from my mother. I had to go to my grandmother when I got my period because I had no idea what to do, and my mother made it very clear she could not handle any discussion of anything related to the reproductive system and sexuality. Once my father got involved with IBLP, it got even worse, and NOTHING of any kind was discussed, just always "No. no. No. This family does not do x, y, z and you will be severely punished if you do any of the things on the no list." And for four straight years, the NO list got laid longer and longer. 

I left home at 16 to attend college with my cousin, living with my dear aunt and uncle, lovely people. That was when was given the information I needed to function as an adult. There is "protecting from harm" and that is one thing. But the "sheltering  to keep you ignorant because we live in fear and think controlling your every thought, emotion, and choice is the way to go" leads to a hell of a lot of depression and young adults who profoundly unprepared for life.

[Indigo Blue]

This is so ugly of me, but I will say it in the privacy here of my safe space. 
 

I am 3/4 of the way through the book. It’s so cathartic to see JB’s sick, abusive, and narcissistic behaviors exposed for the world to see by the writing of this book by a daughter who was so deeply impacted by his hidden abuses. 

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

This is so ugly of me, but I will say it in the privacy here of my safe space. 
 

I am 3/4 of the way through the book. It’s so cathartic to see JB’s sick, abusive, and narcissistic behaviors exposed for the world to see by the writing of this book by a daughter who was so deeply impacted by his hidden abuses. 

It's not ugly at all!!! 🙂 

[Indigo Blue]

I can’t believe what I am reading right now. What a disgusting human being. 

[EKS]

I honestly don't understand why TLC thought it was appropriate not to have separate contracts with all of the involved adults.  

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, EKS said:

I honestly don't understand why TLC thought it was appropriate not to have separate contracts with all of the involved adults.  

I know! So weird!

[maize]

Maybe this book will be one step on the path towards better protections for reality TV actors,  both children and adults?

The contract stuff was very,  very sleazy.

Edited September 16, 2023 by maize

[freesia]

35 minutes ago, maize said:

Maybe this book will be one step on the the path towards better protections for reality TV actors,  both children and adults?

The contract stuff was very,  very sleazy.

I agree. There should be rules as there are for child actors. ( Also for hours—the schedule with the Korean film crew was crazy!)When I read the part where JB itemized everything I felt like—ok, I can see some of his point in that he paid for a lot of things that she would have had to pay for out of a salary. However, she should have been paid ( and the kids should have the money put in trust) and then he could have charged her or not discounted rent, etc and decided what he as a dad was just giving her vs what he was providing as part of her salary. The way he handled the whole thing—not showing the adults what they were signing, not giving her the contract was horrible. And she got way less money than she should have!

Not on the same topic—but it seems like most ( everyone but Jinger and Jill??) signed NDA’s which may be why we don’t here much from them or support/not support for Jinger and Jill. 

[Scarlett]

Can someone post the details of the contract again? I am sure I saw it in this thread but can’t find it now 

[TechWife]

I finished the book yesterday. Between watching the documentary and what I've heard over the years, none of it was surprising. Maybe it's because I was on the perimeter of some GKGW & Vision Forum circles when ds was a baby. It's all very familiar.