How to respond to complaints from teen dd about treatment at volunteer gig

[saraha]

Dd17 is going through a goth/punk/black  clothing choice phase. She has a part time job babysitting every weekend, and two volunteer opportunities, one morning a week at a cat shelter and volunteering with a church sponsored childrens theater day camp that she has been a part of as first a camper, then a volunteer. 

She tones way down her clothing when she babysits wearing normal clothes mostly, but the rest of the time she wears her other stuff. She just informed me right after camp started that she quit the cat shelter. I asked why and she responded that they were picky about what volunteers wear to give a good impression said in a disdainful tone and using air quotes. I assumed they said something about her clothes and it made her mad. Then this week she told me that all of the sudden even though she is the oldest volunteer and been with the group the longest, the ladies running the camp have been passing her over for job assignments and feels like they don’t respect her or something, when before, she was a teachers pet kind of thing. I absolutely think it’s because of the way she dresses, but if I say that and imply she should dress differently for camp, she will not take that well. 
How should I respond to her complaints?

thanks!

Edited June 16, 2022 by saraha

[vonfirmath]

I'm wondering if it is more than the clothing -- if the attitude is also coming out somehow.

 

ETA: Is there anything you do (Esp volunteer work) that you still have requirements you have to meet?  Because I know that when I volunteer at the church, even though I'm a volunteer, there is still paperwork to fill out and expectations that I will be a asset to the church. They don't accept anyone just because they are volunteering.

 

Same with AHG -- where I actually get to pay for the privilege of volunteering! And there is a uniform -- not REQUIRED for leaders but we'd certainly say something to a leader that was consistently not modelling the purity we want in our girls. And an attitude about that would be an indication that this leadership position is not a good fit right now.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by vonfirmath

[Ottakee]

I think she has the right to wear what she wants but she also needs to realize that it will affect how people view her and might affect certain job opportunities, etc.  When you are representing the church group or animal place she needs to realize that they have the right to have certain guidelines that fit their needs/desires.

[saraha]

Knowing her the way I do, I’m absolutely sure she did not start out with an attitude but would definitely get her back up if she thought someone was challenging her in some way.

[saraha]

8 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

I think she has the right to wear what she wants but she also needs to realize that it will affect how people view her and might affect certain job opportunities, etc.  When you are representing the church group or animal place she needs to realize that they have the right to have certain guidelines that fit their needs/desires.

I totally agree 100%

When she brought it up, I just said “We’ll that must be frustrating.” But inside I was like well of course that is happening, how do you expect people to take you seriously and feel you are responsible if you are dressed like that. In social situations, wear what you want, but you limit your options by dressing in a way that makes people feel uncomfortable.

She brought it up again today and I just repeated that must be frustrating and I think she is upset with me because I didn’t get outraged on her behalf. Her sisters absolutely got all outraged so she got what she wanted there. I don’t want to give her ammunition to say I don’t support her, but at the same time, I’m not going to interfere with natural consequences.

[sassenach]

I wouldn't say a word. At 17, I think I'd just let her complain and make some non-committal noises. The most I would do is suggest she have a respectful conversation with the person in charge about her desire to take on more responsibility.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

14 minutes ago, saraha said:

I totally agree 100%

When she brought it up, I just said “We’ll that must be frustrating.” But inside I was like well of course that is happening, how do you expect people to take you seriously and feel you are responsible if you are dressed like that. In social situations, wear what you want, but you limit your options by dressing in a way that makes people feel uncomfortable.

She brought it up again today and I just repeated that must be frustrating and I think she is upset with me because I didn’t get outraged on her behalf. Her sisters absolutely got all outraged so she got what she wanted there. I don’t want to give her ammunition to say I don’t support her, but at the same time, I’m not going to interfere with natural consequences.

I think that your response is perfect 

[BusyMom5]

I think you are handling it perfectly,  not giving her the drama response she wants.  I'd say she knows what she is wearing isn't appropriate,  but she's getting away with it. 

My oldest dresses in clothes I don't like.  I have talked to her about how she should dress for the roles she wants at work- but I wait until its a casual conversation not related to what she's currently wearing.   I admit this week we had a family event and I sent her to her room to change.  She was in black jeans, high heeled combat boots and a low-cut black top with lace on it.  I just looked at her and said "Family event, not night out on the town.  Dress for the occasion."   Its 100 degrees out!!!! Who is wearing black skin-tight jeans?????  She doesn't look good in it either, black isn't a good color on her (or me).  

[saraha]

10 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

 

My oldest dresses in clothes I don't like.  I have talked to her about how she should dress for the roles she wants at work- but I wait until its a casual conversation not related to what she's currently wearing.   I admit this week we had a family event and I sent her to her room to change.  She was in black jeans, high heeled combat boots and a low-cut black top with lace on it.  I just looked at her and said "Family event, not night out on the town.  Dress for the occasion."   Its 100 degrees out!!!! Who is wearing black skin-tight jeans?????  She doesn't look good in it either, black isn't a good color on her (or me).  

I hear you. And be miserable the whole time because she’s hot but won’t admit it 🙄

[Katy]

The only other thing I might say is, "What are you going to do about it?"

[prairiewindmomma]

Have you ever done any explicit/direct instruction about dressing?

I did a stereotype afternoon:

draw a “karen”

draw an ole cowboy at the feed store

draw a corporate attorney

draw a “person of Walmart” 

draw a college girl who talks about beauty on TikTok

I hit the funny stereotypes and then we talked about why we made assumptions about what that person would wear. I talked about how we share ourselves with the world—and how stereotypes are kind of shortcuts mentally—assumptions people make. Those assumptions may or may not actually be accurate about a person.

Then we talked about how we could share things about ourselves through dress. We talked about dressing for the occasion, and so on. 
 

Sometimes teens only have a superficial understanding of things—but don’t really get the depth of the issue because they have limited life experience. If there is quirkiness in the family, I try to have the explicit instruction more and not assume that my kids coded all of those life lessons correctly, iykwim.

——signed, the mom whose kid last month wore combat boots, black ripped jeans, and a black tshirt to a music performance when told to “wear black”. 😉🤦

[elegantlion]

I can sympathize with her. People tend to wrongly assume goth is somehow a character issue, that people who choose a goth aesthetic are dishonest, drug users, and unrealiable. I dressed very "punky" in the mid 80s and it was amazing how differently people would treat you when you really weren't any different than you had always been. It was a fascinating exercise in social norms and biases and how people judge based upon appearance. 

So, on one hand she's right that people shouldn't assume based upon how you dress, but they do. My experience absolutely shaped my perception of some people. It was like an insight into the world as a teen. It felt like if people were going to judge me based upon my punk clothes and not my personality - even when they had a chance to know me - it was their loss. I still love self-expression and even some experimentation with clothing/hair etc. I live in a very conservative area dress wise. 

I think your response was fine. My only addendum would be if she wants to dress that way, then she will need to go above the norm to show that she is realiable and a good worker. She will have to be more proactive. 

[Garga]

In his early to mid teens, my son wore his Doctor Who cosplay costume to his weekly church youth group. 

I explained to him that he could wear what he wants, and that some kids will be cool with it, but others will feel that it’s too unique and since a lot of teens want to feel like they “belong” they will be uncomfortable hanging out with someone who doesn’t look like the rest of the group. I told him that humans are social and they like to feel part of the group and like to look alike in their groups. Anyone who looks different might be rejected, either overtly or subtly.

He wore his costume and told me I was wrong and that lots of kids came up to him and said they liked it. He would also wear sloppy clothes when he wasn’t wearing his cosplay outfit and just didn’t care what anyone thought. He continued with his sloppy clothes and costumes for a couple of years.

Ok. FIne.

And then a few years later, he started dressing with a bit more care; he didn’t let himself wear completely sloppy clothes. He wears simple jeans and tee-shirts that fit nicely. Not high-fashion, but nice.

One day he told me that while everyone was nice enough to him when he’d wear his costumes or whatever sloppy clothes he felt like, he started to realize that no one listened to him. He realized he didn’t have any respect. He was just the goofy kid that they weren’t actively mean to, but they dismissed as unimportant. He realized that if he wanted to garner respect and have a voice, he’d have to conform, just a little bit.

It was a hard lesson, but he learned it. I did tell him the truth to begin with, explaining that humans make assumptions based on clothing and they are uncomfortable around someone who doesn’t look like the others, but then I let it go and let him wear what he wanted, and the world taught him the lesson for me.

I wish the world wasn’t this way with all my heart, but it is. I wish he could have kept wearing his costumes without any negative outcomes, but that’s just not the way people are wired. At least not around here.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Garga

[vonfirmath]

8 minutes ago, Garga said:

 

I wish the world wasn’t this way with all my heart, but it is. I wish he could have kept wearing his costumes without any negative outcomes, but that’s just not the way people are wired. At least not around here.

I would guess its the way people are wired. Period.

It's just what is "expected" or "normal" is different in different locations. 

Our troop is going to be pushing this a little next year because our next Troop Coordinator is a hair dresser who dresses a bit -- out of normal. Still modest and respectful of the uniform rules. But different for sure. So we'll see how it goes.

[Garga]

It didn’t help that it was this particular Doctor Who costume. The costumer designer created it as a joke, but the director didn’t understand it was a joke and loved it. The director made the actor wear it, and that particular actor is a bit of a curmudgeon and hated the costume. It’s literally a clown costume. People don’t really treat you with respect when you wear your clown costume.

Poor kid. I wish we could all get away with wearing stuff like this whenever we want to.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Garga

[katilac]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

Dd17 is going through a goth/punk/black  clothing choice phase.  

I'm pretty surprised it's a problem at theater camp, of all places. 

Goth/punk/black can cover a lot of territory. I'm not picturing anything extreme, just bc you didn't mention anything extreme.

I think your responses are fine and that's what I'd stick with. She can decide on her own if she cares enough about these volunteer gigs to change what she wears. If the answer is no, she doesn't, I think that's fine. 

[BusyMom5]

1 hour ago, Garga said:

It didn’t help that it was this particular Doctor Who costume. The costumer designer created it as a joke, but the director didn’t understand it was a joke and loved it. The director made the actor wear it, and that particular actor is a bit of a curmudgeon and hated the costume. It’s literally a clown costume. People don’t really treat you with respect when you wear your clown costume.

Poor kid. I wish we could all get away with wearing stuff like this whenever we want to.

 

 

Your son sounds adorable!  Quirky and fun.  My DD also likes to cosplay and would love to see someone dressed like this out and about. ... but she would probably think he's a bit goofy.  She likes goofy!

Edited June 16, 2022 by BusyMom5

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, saraha said:

Knowing her the way I do, I’m absolutely sure she did not start out with an attitude but would definitely get her back up if she thought someone was challenging her in some way.

Well, that’s fine, but reality is reality, and if she wants to keep a certain job, she may have to learn that she might need to look the part. If she really objects to dressing more conservatively, maybe it’s time to find a different job or volunteer position. Employers and volunteer coordinators aren’t going to bend to her will just because she thinks they should, and work environments aren’t the only places where we sometimes need to modify our fashion and makeup choices in order to be accepted. It may feel unfair to her, but life isn’t always fair.

Honestly, I would tell her what I really thought was going on, because I would rather have it be me telling her something she doesn’t want to hear, so she has a chance to think about it and decide what she wants to do, rather than possibly getting a nasty surprise when she is fired from a job or a volunteer position because of her appearance. At that point, don’t you think she will be angry with you for not clueing her in and advising her about how she should be presenting herself in different situations? I would have come right out and told her the things you told us you were thinking, because she really needs to hear those things, even if she won’t like being told that, unless she truly doesn’t care about the impression she makes on others and she doesn’t care about keeping jobs or volunteer positions, both now and in the future, she can’t always dress the exact way she wants and do her makeup exactly the way she wants. Compromises may need to be made.

I don’t understand the idea that we shouldn’t be open and honest with our own kids. If they can’t count on their mom to tell them the truth, who can they count on? In this case, your dd was outraged about something she had no real business being outraged about, and because her sisters supported her and you said nothing, she now has the mistaken belief that she was completely in the right. How is that helping her? I’m not saying you should be mean or critical, just that she needs positive guidance to help her navigate through these situations, and to help her realize what others’ expectations might be. I’m not suggesting you tell her she has to change, just that you let her know the potential consequences of insisting on dressing and wearing her makeup and hair in certain ways. She’s still just a kid and she needs information, because her choices seem to be coming back to bite her. 

 

[saraha]

6 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Well, that’s fine, but reality is reality, and if she wants to keep a certain job, she may have to learn that she might need to look the part. If she really objects to dressing more conservatively, maybe it’s time to find a different job or volunteer position. Employers and volunteer coordinators aren’t going to bend to her will just because she thinks they should, and work environments aren’t the only places where we sometimes need to modify our fashion and makeup choices in order to be accepted. It may feel unfair to her, but life isn’t always fair.

Honestly, I would tell her what I really thought was going on, because I would rather have it be me telling her something she doesn’t want to hear, so she has a chance to think about it and decide what she wants to do, rather than possibly getting a nasty surprise when she is fired from a job or a volunteer position because of her appearance. At that point, don’t you think she will be angry with you for not clueing her in and advising her about how she should be presenting herself in different situations? I would have come right out and told her the things you told us you were thinking, because she really needs to hear those things, even if she won’t like being told that, unless she truly doesn’t care about the impression she makes on others and she doesn’t care about keeping jobs or volunteer positions, both now and in the future, she can’t always dress the exact way she wants and do her makeup exactly the way she wants. Compromises may need to be made.

I don’t understand the idea that we shouldn’t be open and honest with our own kids. If they can’t count on their mom to tell them the truth, who can they count on? In this case, your dd was outraged about something she had no real business being outraged about, and because her sisters supported her and you said nothing, she now has the mistaken belief that she was completely in the right. How is that helping her? I’m not saying you should be mean or critical, just that she needs positive guidance to help her navigate through these situations, and to help her realize what others’ expectations might be. I’m not suggesting you tell her she has to change, just that you let her know the potential consequences of insisting on dressing and wearing her makeup and hair in certain ways. She’s still just a kid and she needs information, because her choices seem to be coming back to bite her. 

 

I hear what you are saying, and with my other daughters I have taken or would take a similar route. But with this one, even gentle guidance is seen as criticism and is grounds for conflict. 

[fairfarmhand]

6 minutes ago, saraha said:

I hear what you are saying, and with my other daughters I have taken or would take a similar route. But with this one, even gentle guidance is seen as criticism and is grounds for conflict. 

Yeah I was going to chime in with this. Some kids just can’t receive this kind of input without a blowup and really, they do best when the universe teaches them things as opposed to parents. I know my kid that was like this would have gone the extra mile in dressing wacky just to prove how wrong her parents were, despite the fact that it probably would have hurt her.

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

I hear what you are saying, and with my other daughters I have taken or would take a similar route. But with this one, even gentle guidance is seen as criticism and is grounds for conflict. 

Yep. Let the world outside your home do the teaching. 

[HomeAgain]

It's a touchy area, but I think focusing on how the business wants to be represented is just as valid as personal expression.

It's like when my kid puts on his scout uniform, he knows that he is representing scouts and his behavior/demeanor/etc is a reflection of the organization.  It's a similar train of thought - the business has a way they want to be represented and requests for that should be mulled over and seen if it's a good fit for the way you personally want to represent yourself.  There's no wrong answer, only seeking out better fits if one doesn't work.

[happi duck]

I wish how we looked could stop mattering.

I think I'm team "keep wearing what you want" because though fashion is easy to change prejudices against physical appearances that can't be changed are out there too.

Places can have a dress code of course but the leaders should be straight forward and not passive aggressive by just not giving responsibility.

 

[Jaybee]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

I hear what you are saying, and with my other daughters I have taken or would take a similar route. But with this one, even gentle guidance is seen as criticism and is grounds for conflict. 

I liked @Catwoman's post, but I understand this, as well. I have an 18yo who has been very resistant to advice and guidance for a long time--much more than usual. I have to be careful in discerning when and what to say. Sometimes I say/have said it, and then say something like, "I know you don't like hearing that, but that's part of a mom's job, to make sure you know these things." Now that he is 18, almost 19, I really don't advise or instruct at all, unless it is something very unusual. I care very very much, but because of his attitude, mostly he is going to have to learn from the school of hard knocks. I had much rather save him from the pain of that, but his own lack of teachability causes it. Thankfully, he does listen to adults outside our family, and I just pray that those adults will steer him in the right way.

[bolt.]

I would not provide any guidance (gentle or not). I would instead upgrade my reaction -- not to 'outrage' but to some really open and expressive sympathy / empathy. I agree with the perspective of not interfering with letting 'the world' do its own teaching, but I also actively teach that home is where people are 100% on your side when 'the world' is getting you down. Even when things are small-but-feel-big, or when people are actively causing their own problems... I get on side with them. Nobody wants sympathy from somebody who feels like they don't believe in their perspective.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, ScoutTN said:

Yep. Let the world outside your home do the teaching. 

This.

Let the world let her know that choices have consequences.

[Soror]

Both of my older ones have went through gothy phases. Ds more than dd and he is still there a bit. Even though I seriously don't care for it, at all I would have sympathy for them. It is passive aggressive as @happi duck mentioned to not have a dress code but punish people for their dress(it is one thing to have body parts showing but just wearing black?) and also the fact that none of us like to be judged based on how we look. I would complain along with her that it is crap that she has seniority and has done a good job but now they are skipping over her, that stinks.  I would empathize for them about the unfairness of it and brainstorm with them on what to do. What is more important wearing what you want or continuing in this gig/getting in line with expectations? Can they talk to the people about what they are looking for?

Now if they are doing something that has an explicit dress code that they are breaking I still can empathize that it stinks not to wear what you like but it is what it is. Sometimes we have to follow rules to be in society- schools and jobs often have dress codes.

(and as a mom with a kid that has done the whole goth thing it has made me empathize with other parents. I've heard comments implying that kids into goth must be doing drugs etc which is crap but whatever so many rich preppy kids into drugs too. I still have my preferences and biases and dress very tamely but as someone who has always hated arbitrary rules I commiserate.)

Edited June 16, 2022 by Soror

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, ScoutTN said:

Yep. Let the world outside your home do the teaching. 

 

9 minutes ago, EKS said:

This.

Let the world let her know that choices have consequences.

I don’t understand that mindset because I always felt like it was my job to prepare my kid for adulthood as much as I could, and that part of that preparation was talking about things like this. Why let my kid get hurt by “the world” when I could have at least explained how “the world” works in regards to situations like this? 

I’m not saying a kid is always going to listen, and I know some kids are very stubborn and have to find things out the hard way, but on a forum where so many people have their kids doing a ton of household chores to prepare them for adulthood, it seems odd that many aren’t also helping set them up for success in their future business careers by teaching them things like how to dress appropriately for a job and what kinds of demands and expectations their future employers and/or clients may have of them. We always taught our son things like that since he was a kid; we wanted him to be prepared and we wanted to set him up as best we could to be very successful — and knowing how to dress and how to behave in business interactions are very important things to know.

I guess I don’t understand why a teen should have to learn those things on her own without her parents at least trying to explain how “the world” works and how the teen can’t always do everything the way she wants all the time, if she also wants to have things like jobs and volunteer opportunities. And again, I know some kids aren’t receptive, but I wouldn’t feel right if I didn’t at least try.

[Catwoman]

55 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

I liked @Catwoman's post, but I understand this, as well. I have an 18yo who has been very resistant to advice and guidance for a long time--much more than usual. I have to be careful in discerning when and what to say. Sometimes I say/have said it, and then say something like, "I know you don't like hearing that, but that's part of a mom's job, to make sure you know these things." Now that he is 18, almost 19, I really don't advise or instruct at all, unless it is something very unusual. I care very very much, but because of his attitude, mostly he is going to have to learn from the school of hard knocks. I had much rather save him from the pain of that, but his own lack of teachability causes it. Thankfully, he does listen to adults outside our family, and I just pray that those adults will steer him in the right way.

I agree completely about it being part of a mom’s job. It seems like you gave your ds the advice, so if he chooses not to take it, there’s nothing you can do about that. But he will always know that you tried to warn him and protect him from having to learn the hard way (even if he doesn’t want to admit it!) and I think that means a lot.

 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, happi duck said:

I wish how we looked could stop mattering.

I think I'm team "keep wearing what you want" because though fashion is easy to change prejudices against physical appearances that can't be changed are out there too.

Places can have a dress code of course but the leaders should be straight forward and not passive aggressive by just not giving responsibility.

 

I wish it didn’t matter, either. 

But unfortunately, to be successful in many different careers, what you wear and how you present yourself does matter, and it matters a lot. I think kids and teens need to be prepared for that, because if dressing a certain way is a very important part of their identity and they aren’t open to modifying it when they go to the office every day, they might need to choose their future careers with that restriction in mind. There are a lot of careers where people are free to express their personal style — but there are a lot where that’s probably not going to be advisable. Kids need to realize that so they can plan accordingly and possibly adjust their expectations. 

I would probably just tell a teen who who isn’t desperate for money, but who wants to work, that she should just look for a part time job where she can wear what she wants. I would rather see the kid happy than making her feel like she can’t be herself.  But I would also try to prepare her for the future, when she may have to choose between her dream job and her goth style (or whatever,) so she doesn’t have unrealistic expectations. 

[Catwoman]

4 hours ago, saraha said:

I hear what you are saying, and with my other daughters I have taken or would take a similar route. But with this one, even gentle guidance is seen as criticism and is grounds for conflict. 

That’s tough, for sure. 😞 

I guess I just feel like I have to take one for the team and deal with the conflict if I think it’s important. If the kid goes out and does the opposite afterward, at least I will know I warned them — and they will know that, too, and they won’t wonder why I never warned them.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Catwoman

[Farrar]

I want to point out something as a former teen who had zero ****s to give about how I dressed (and still doesn't to some extent). I think your response is right on, Saraha. Don't engage, let the world do the teaching. It's okay to be realistic with her and don't get involved in trying to change her or trying to change any rules or reactions to her, but also be in her corner on a more personal level. 

BUT... there's a sort of assumption in some posts in this thread that the world will lead her to "get it" that she can't always dress how she wants. That's absolutely not how that worked for me as a teen. I wasn't goth, but I made other style choices that we're welcome in all places. And I was stubborn as all get out. And there are many contexts where a bit of a goth edge (or even a good bit more) will be totally fine. And she may just find her way to those corners of the world instead. And that's all the more reason not to get into it with her. Because if you say "you can't always..." and then she finds a way too - which is something that is actually totally possible! - then that's not a good setup for your relationship.

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I want to point out something as a former teen who had zero ****s to give about how I dressed (and still doesn't to some extent). I think your response is right on, Saraha. Don't engage, let the world do the teaching. It's okay to be realistic with her and don't get involved in trying to change her or trying to change any rules or reactions to her, but also be in her corner on a more personal level. 

BUT... there's a sort of assumption in some posts in this thread that the world will lead her to "get it" that she can't always dress how she wants. That's absolutely not how that worked for me as a teen. I wasn't goth, but I made other style choices that we're welcome in all places. And I was stubborn as all get out. And there are many contexts where a bit of a goth edge (or even a good bit more) will be totally fine. And she may just find her way to those corners of the world instead. And that's all the more reason not to get into it with her. Because if you say "you can't always..." and then she finds a way too - which is something that is actually totally possible! - then that's not a good setup for your relationship.

But I don’t think you have to tell the kid that they will never find a way to make it work. It’s more about telling them that they are limiting themselves, and that it’s ok to do that as long as they understand those limitations. 

I think it’s also important that they realize that the world will not bend to their will. In this case, saraha‘s dd seems to think that she should be able to wear whatever she wants to wear, and how dare anyone tell her otherwise, and how dare there be any negative consequences. That is both immature and unrealistic, and I wouldn’t encourage that line of thinking.

For a part time job, it doesn’t really matter because she can probably get a different job — and I would give her that option — but once she is an adult, she may not have that freedom if she has a specific career goal with certain norms of dress and appearance.

[fairfarmhand]

28 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I don’t understand that mindset because I always felt like it was my job to prepare my kid for adulthood as much as I could, and that part of that preparation was talking about things like this. Why let my kid get hurt by “the world” when I could have at least explained how “the world” works in regards to situations like this? 

I’m not saying a kid is always going to listen, and I know some kids are very stubborn and have to find things out the hard way, but on a forum where so many people have their kids doing a ton of household chores to prepare them for adulthood, it seems odd that many aren’t also helping set them up for success in their future business careers by teaching them things like how to dress appropriately for a job and what kinds of demands and expectations their future employers and/or clients may have of them. We always taught our son things like that since he was a kid; we wanted him to be prepared and we wanted to set him up as best we could to be very successful — and knowing how to dress and how to behave in business interactions are very important things to know.

I guess I don’t understand why a teen should have to learn those things on her own without her parents at least trying to explain how “the world” works and how the teen can’t always do everything the way she wants all the time, if she also wants to have things like jobs and volunteer opportunities. And again, I know some kids aren’t receptive, but I wouldn’t feel right if I didn’t at least try.

Most of us with these kinds of kids have tried for years only to be ignored and have big blowups over such things. So, in order to preserve the relationship, sometimes it's better to just let this stuff go and let other interactions give them the messages that are needed to be received. Often, it doesn't matter how much the parents have said stuff, these kids are determined to "prove the parents wrong" and generally make things harder on themselves.

If you've never had a kid like this, it's hard to understand, but I totally understand the calculus that a parent of these hard kids have to make. 

A comment about my dd's clothing choices could lead to an argument that would take days to subside. And even after that, it would be months of sulky comments and defiant glares. 

[Katy]

28 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I don’t understand that mindset because I always felt like it was my job to prepare my kid for adulthood as much as I could, and that part of that preparation was talking about things like this. Why let my kid get hurt by “the world” when I could have at least explained how “the world” works in regards to situations like this? 

I’m not saying a kid is always going to listen, and I know some kids are very stubborn and have to find things out the hard way, but on a forum where so many people have their kids doing a ton of household chores to prepare them for adulthood, it seems odd that many aren’t also helping set them up for success in their future business careers by teaching them things like how to dress appropriately for a job and what kinds of demands and expectations their future employers and/or clients may have of them. We always taught our son things like that since he was a kid; we wanted him to be prepared and we wanted to set him up as best we could to be very successful — and knowing how to dress and how to behave in business interactions are very important things to know.

I guess I don’t understand why a teen should have to learn those things on her own without her parents at least trying to explain how “the world” works and how the teen can’t always do everything the way she wants all the time, if she also wants to have things like jobs and volunteer opportunities. And again, I know some kids aren’t receptive, but I wouldn’t feel right if I didn’t at least try.

Unless the girl isn’t neurotypical there is almost no chance she doesn’t understand this. She just wishes it wasn’t true. At her age the only consequence for this small rebellion is not getting volunteer placements she wants. Let her keep doing it. It’s not a battle worth picking because she’s got a point and it’s really not hurting her right now. 
 

I’m probably biased because a few girls I knew as teens who were too controlled by parents ended up with addiction issues, whereas the smart girls who were fans of Marilyn Manson and dressed semi-goth all outgrew it and became wonderful compassionate people who learned both individuality and when to reign it in to conform. 

[Catwoman]

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

Most of us with these kinds of kids have tried for years only to be ignored and have big blowups over such things. So, in order to preserve the relationship, sometimes it's better to just let this stuff go and let other interactions give them the messages that are needed to be received. Often, it doesn't matter how much the parents have said stuff, these kids are determined to "prove the parents wrong" and generally make things harder on themselves.

If you've never had a kid like this, it's hard to understand, but I totally understand the calculus that a parent of these hard kids have to make. 

A comment about my dd's clothing choices could lead to an argument that would take days to subside. And even after that, it would be months of sulky comments and defiant glares. 

Oh, I don’t mean you keep badgering the kid forever about it — if you tried and failed, you have done your part until the kid decides to be more receptive.

You can only do what you can do. 🙂 

[Catwoman]

Just now, Katy said:

Unless the girl isn’t neurotypical there is almost no chance she doesn’t understand this. She just wishes it wasn’t true. At her age the only consequence for this small rebellion is not getting volunteer placements she wants. Let her keep doing it. It’s not a battle worth picking because she’s got a point and it’s really not hurting her right now. 
 

I’m probably biased because a few girls I knew as teens who were too controlled by parents ended up with addiction issues, whereas the smart girls who were fans of Marilyn Manson and dressed semi-goth all outgrew it and became wonderful compassionate people who learned both individuality and when to reign it in to conform. 

I’m not saying anything about controlling the kid. Giving a kid information isn’t controlling them.

And I wouldn’t assume that the kid does know these things; some kids are truly clueless and they haven’t had the exposure to business situations, so they don’t understand how the business world works. I think it is a parent’s responsibility to explain those things, and there’s nothing wrong with commiserating with a kid at the same time, and agreeing that it’s unfair that they can’t express their individuality the way they want to, and still get the jobs or volunteer opportunities that they want. I think it’s all about helping them realize that, in order to get what they want, they may need to make some concessions.

[fairfarmhand]

3 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Oh, I don’t mean you keep badgering the kid forever about it — if you tried and failed, you have done your part until the kid decides to be more receptive.

You can only do what you can do. 🙂 

Yeah.

My dh is this personality. I asked him about it once. He said he'd rather fail on his own and figure out how to succeed on his own. He is that independent minded. Unwanted advice (this is advice that he did not specifically ask for) in his case actually prolongs the learning curve. He is so resistant to people telling him what to do, that if someone tells him what to do, he will do the opposite, even if it isn't what he wants. As an adult he is aware of his tendency and can force himself to not behave this childishly, but his natural impulse is "I'll show them" He wasn't that aware as a teen.

When you have a kid like this, you're telling and telling and telling from the ages of 2-14 or 15. After that point, you reserve your advice for life or death, big deal situations. Even then, they may not listen.

[Farrar]

9 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

But I don’t think you have to tell the kid that they will never find a way to make it work. It’s more about telling them that they are limiting themselves, and that it’s ok to do that as long as they understand those limitations. 

I think it’s also important that they realize that the world will not bend to their will. In this case, saraha‘s dd seems to think that she should be able to wear whatever she wants to wear, and how dare anyone tell her otherwise, and how dare there be any negative consequences. That is both immature and unrealistic, and I wouldn’t encourage that line of thinking.

For a part time job, it doesn’t really matter because she can probably get a different job — and I would give her that option — but once she is an adult, she may not have that freedom if she has a specific career goal with certain norms of dress and appearance.

You don't need to be the one to tell them. They are literally experiencing those limitations already. They are figuring out that the world won't bend to their will. You don't need to rub it in. Because that's what it will feel like. You think you're doing them a favor, but you're really just being a jerk from their perspective.

And realistically, everyone's style evolves. And some people go into jobs where they can wear what they want and their desire to wear what they want sometimes shapes that. Or shapes moving somewhere where people are much less judgmental about it. Or going to college somewhere like that. Seriously, it's an organic process. If you insert yourself wagging your finger as a parent - even, as you seem to think you can masterfully do - just once, without it seeming like nagging - I can promise that won't go well for a lot of kids. Then they'll go off and learn the lessons and figure out when they want to modify if ever and how to get by and they won't thank you for it. They'll be annoyed that you weren't on their side in that process.

[Beth S]

Great advice here.

Our short advice to our kids is "Dress Like Your Boss" . . . which gets you in the framework of envisioning a successful future.

[SKL]

I said to my daughter something like this:  "people are usually more conservative when it comes to working with younger kids.  Like when you were in elementary school, this wouldn't have gone over at all, right?  Young kids' brains aren't yet complex enough to understand that what they see outside doesn't tell much about what's happening inside.  We need to meet them where they are in their development."

Also, how to dress for a job should be thought of as more or less a uniform.  It's expected of everyone on that job, not just them.  The uniform may not be spelled out in words, but there always is one.  It's nothing personal.

At 17 I really think dressing for a job is a life skill.

[Catwoman]

Just now, Beth S said:

Great advice here.

Our short advice to our kids is "Dress Like Your Boss" . . . which gets you in the framework of envisioning a successful future.

Yes!**



**Unless your boss is 90 and wears doubleknit polyester suits. 

Then you should not dress like your boss. 😉 

[bolt.]

38 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I don’t understand that mindset because I always felt like it was my job to prepare my kid for adulthood as much as I could, and that part of that preparation was talking about things like this. Why let my kid get hurt by “the world” when I could have at least explained how “the world” works in regards to situations like this? 

I’m not saying a kid is always going to listen, and I know some kids are very stubborn and have to find things out the hard way, but on a forum where so many people have their kids doing a ton of household chores to prepare them for adulthood, it seems odd that many aren’t also helping set them up for success in their future business careers by teaching them things like how to dress appropriately for a job and what kinds of demands and expectations their future employers and/or clients may have of them. We always taught our son things like that since he was a kid; we wanted him to be prepared and we wanted to set him up as best we could to be very successful — and knowing how to dress and how to behave in business interactions are very important things to know.

I guess I don’t understand why a teen should have to learn those things on her own without her parents at least trying to explain how “the world” works and how the teen can’t always do everything the way she wants all the time, if she also wants to have things like jobs and volunteer opportunities. And again, I know some kids aren’t receptive, but I wouldn’t feel right if I didn’t at least try.

For me, it's about the faint absurdity of trying to make a family mimic a workplace (in order to teach them how a workplace works for adults) while not noticing that that actively sabotages the goal of teaching a child how a *family* will work when they are adults.

When they become adults, having healthy family relationships bursting with love, fortified with boundaries, and populated by thriving individuals is going to be a very challenging thing to accomplish. Learning the skills and instincts to make that happen actually takes the unconditional care of your parents for the better part of two decades.

Figuring out that you can't always wear what you want and also get the results you want in a workplace or other authoritarian environment takes, like, two weeks to learn. It doesn't require a guided tour!

It's easy for me to prioritize modeling 100% on-your-side family behaviour over the completely unnecessary and counter-productive conflict-inviting option of guiding an unreceptive but neurotypical adult to a conclusion that would otherwise make itself blindingly obvious in a very short period of time.

As a parent, building skills of adult family-health-creator is both more challenging and more meaningful than building the skills of a workplace-ready young adult. It's going to impact their happiness 1000x more to be in a healthy family, even though being a successful wage earner is important for happiness too.

Sure if you can do both: give a few tips and teachings along the way, without creating a lot of hard feelings around 'not supporting' a kid who is suffering something at the hands of 'the world' -- absolutely go for it. That's great and I'm glad some families can have it both ways. On the other hand: lots of us have the kind of teens where you have to make a prioritized decision for one goal above the other. In this case that prioritization choice is a no-brainer.

[SKL]

Maybe off topic, but the other day, one of the young women who helped us at the vet clinic had so much dark makeup on, I really didn't know what to think.  I mean like bright blue, 3/4" wide coloring under her eyes and multiple unusual, clashing colors in her hair (and a lot of other unusual fashion choices).  TBH I have always understood it to be a possible symptom of a mental health issue, when someone goes well beyond social norms to cover up or alter how they look.  I understand if you're going to a concert or something, but at a traditional job?  Something feels off.  (Not saying OP's daughter has a mental health issue, but this could possibly be something the employers wonder about.)

Edited June 17, 2022 by SKL

[Jann in TX]

Another mom here with similar issue..

My youngest is 20 and is starting her Jr year in college.  She is currently going through a K-pop phase... she is also one to wear her cosplay outfits around campus and on the last day of class every semester she has worn FORMAL attire...

We were not thrilled with her choices (we are fairly conservative) as she had been interviewing with faculty for research jobs (she is a Neuro-Biology major going into medical research).  DH and I wondered if her clothing choices would hold her back as she would be speaking at major medical conferences if hired...

It turned out that one of the girls in her K-pop club (an 'official' university sponsored club!) was working in a research lab and got DD an interview!  The week DD was scheduled to interview she dyed her hair PINK-- like a bright deep PINK! Thankfully it lightened up a bit after a washing -- This was in preparation for a recent K-pop concert (Ateez) as well as for her K-pop cover videos...

Despite what DH and I saw as a 'flaw' (flaw as in possibly making a poor first impression in a professional environment) DD was hired and even has faculty fighting over her!

DD's K-pop club now has some videos that are becoming popular on Instagram... I'm learning how to accept them as 'good exercise'... I'm even getting used to the pink hair (DH still HATES it!) PM me if you would like the links to her dance videos...

Here are the before and after pictures (I will remove-- please do not quote pictures).   Yes- the light brown/blond is her NATURAL color!

Edited June 16, 2022 by Jann in TX

[Catwoman]

12 minutes ago, bolt. said:

For me, it's about the faint absurdity of trying to make a family mimic a workplace (in order to teach them how a workplace works for adults) while not noticing that that actively sabotages the goal of teaching a child how a *family* will work when they are adults.

When they become adults, having healthy family relationships bursting with love, fortified with boundaries, and populated by thriving individuals is going to be a very challenging thing to accomplish. Learning the skills and instincts to make that happen actually takes the unconditional care of your parents for the better part of two decades.

Figuring out that you can't always wear what you want and also get the results you want in a workplace or other authoritarian environment takes, like, two weeks to learn. It doesn't require a guided tour!

It's easy for me to prioritize modeling 100% on-your-side family behaviour over the completely unnecessary and counter-productive conflict-inviting option of guiding an unreceptive but neurotypical adult to a conclusion that would otherwise make itself blindingly obvious in a very short period of time.

As a parent, building skills of adult family-health-creator is both more challenging and more meaningful than building the skills of a workplace-ready young adult. It's going to impact their happiness 1000x more to be in a healthy family, even though being a successful wage earner is important for happiness too.

Sure if you can do both: give a few tips and teachings along the way, without creating a lot of hard feelings around 'not supporting' a kid who is suffering something at the hands of 'the world' -- absolutely go for it. That's great and I'm glad some families can have it both ways. On the other hand: lots of us have the kind of teens where you have to make a prioritized decision for one goal above the other. In this case that prioritization choice is a no-brainer.

Wow. 

You completely misunderstood what I have been trying to say here. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I never even remotely suggested that preparing a kid for business success should be more important than having a happy family. How did you ever get that idea? I come from a family of highly successful people, but we are all incredibly close to our kids. 

I have no idea what made you think that I was suggesting that anyone should be, "trying to make a family mimic a workplace (in order to teach them how a workplace works for adults.)" Who would do that??? My ds has known how a workplace works for adults and how professionals deal with colleagues, employees, and clients since he was a kid, because he was always included in our professional practice, but we certainly never tried to make our home "mimic a workplace." What does the even mean?

I also find it incredibly amusing that you think a kid can learn the ins and outs of how to navigate a workplace in about two weeks, when I have been saying the same thing for years about things like housecleaning, and people told me I was crazy and that it takes years of training and chores and practice to know how to do the laundry and load the dishwasher. LOL! I guess it depends on your perspective! In our firm, we have seen highly qualified job applicants in their 40s with professional degrees and certifications who still don't know how to dress for an interview and who still don't have a clue about business etiquette, so don't assume these things are necessarily easily learned for everyone. (And I'm not talking about people on the spectrum; I'm talking about people who think they are so important and valuable that they shouldn't have to even try to fit in with the firm's culture.)

I'm probably sounding so rude here. Please don't take it that way, bolt! I'm just kind of incredulous that I must have phrased my posts in a weird way or something, because I feel like my point has really been lost. 

My entire point is that I feel like it's a parent's job to try to prepare our kids and do our best to try to teach them the things that will hopefully help set them up for future business/career success. I'm not saying that we have to hammer it into their heads and never know when to shut up about it, and of course if we have a kid who isn't at all receptive, we need to be aware of that and accept that we did our best, and let the chips fall where they may. Obviously, the parent-child relationship is far more important than what the kid wears to a part time job. It's more important than ANY job. 

Anyway, again, I hope I'm not coming across as rude here!!!

[Catwoman]

Not quoting because I know you want to delete the photos, but @Jann in TX -- your dd is absolutely BEAUTIFUL!!! (And her pink hair looks great on her!)

[Jann in TX]

OP,

I think you are doing a great job handling the situation.  

My DD was/is working through identity issues--and is using her clothing choices to express herself-- sounds like your DD is as well.

I've found that if I try to 'counsel' my DD she either pushes back or moves away (emotionally).  If/when she asks me for my opinion I will (and do) speak honestly... but not all of my fears have become reality. 

Keep loving on your DD-- I've noted that my DD responds well when I speak words of encouragement (even little positive comments about her atire "great way to decorate a simple black face mask-- it really works with the rest of your look").

[bolt.]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Wow. 

You completely misunderstood what I have been trying to say here. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I never even remotely suggested that preparing a kid for business success should be more important than having a happy family. How did you ever get that idea? I come from a family of highly successful people, but we are all incredibly close to our kids. 

I have no idea what made you think that I was suggesting that anyone should be, "trying to make a family mimic a workplace (in order to teach them how a workplace works for adults.)" Who would do that??? My ds has known how a workplace works for adults and how professionals deal with colleagues, employees, and clients since he was a kid, because he was always included in our professional practice, but we certainly never tried to make our home "mimic a workplace." What does the even mean?

I also find it incredibly amusing that you think a kid can learn the ins and outs of how to navigate a workplace in about two weeks, when I have been saying the same thing for years about things like housecleaning, and people told me I was crazy and that it takes years of training and chores and practice to know how to do the laundry and load the dishwasher. LOL! I guess it depends on your perspective! In our firm, we have seen highly qualified job applicants in their 40s with professional degrees and certifications who still don't know how to dress for an interview and who still don't have a clue about business etiquette, so don't assume these things are necessarily easily learned for everyone. (And I'm not talking about people on the spectrum; I'm talking about people who think they are so important and valuable that they shouldn't have to even try to fit in with the firm's culture.)

I'm probably sounding so rude here. Please don't take it that way, bolt! I'm just kind of incredulous that I must have phrased my posts in a weird way or something, because I feel like my point has really been lost. 

My entire point is that I feel like it's a parent's job to try to prepare our kids and do our best to try to teach them the things that will hopefully help set them up for future business/career success. I'm not saying that we have to hammer it into their heads and never know when to shut up about it, and of course if we have a kid who isn't at all receptive, we need to be aware of that and accept that we did our best, and let the chips fall where they may. Obviously, the parent-child relationship is far more important than what the kid wears to a part time job. It's more important than ANY job. 

Anyway, again, I hope I'm not coming across as rude here!!!

You're not coming across as rude. It's all good.

I think I'm responding to some things that you weren't mentioning and probably aren't doing just because there are, indeed, a culture of people out there who think developing workplace skills is a major component of child raising -- at the expense of warmth, connection, and unconditionality in their homes. I'm glad that's not you!

I think you are very lucky (and possibly strategic, since you've been doing 'business talk' from a young age) that your kids are still 'advisable even when under duress' about these things.

Many of us have to choose our moments carefully, or let the moment go without providing valuable advice. This is because many (most?) teens are prickly, and their extreme sensitivity to the slightest advice or 'criticism' ("Did you notice you dripped your breakfast on your shirt?") can result in a huge blow-up (conflict) or the quiet sense that, "Nobody's got my back, I am alone in the world, my parents support the world's rejection of my identity". Those are big risks to take in a fragile relationship with a sensitive kid.

Also, I agree that there are things about workplace life that take more than a few weeks to figure out. I was just thinking in this case, about these clothes, where the issue has already surfaced -- it probably won't be more than a couple of weeks before the penny drops completely.

In other cases, if a teen or young adult is truly missing 'something' and it matters -- even those of us most reluctant to 'poke the bear' will try to pick a good moment and get the point across in as low-confrontation way as we can. There's plenty of middle ground between 'hands off' and 'hands on' here. But if you've never raised a particularly thorny rose, you really won't get why we want the let the world play the teacher for some harsh lessons (whenever that's a reasonable choice) so we ourselves can be a place for recovery, rather than a participant in the things that are harsh.

[ikslo]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

Yes!**



**Unless your boss is 90 and wears doubleknit polyester suits. 

Then you should not dress like your boss. 😉 

Man, I wish my mom would have told me… 🤣🤣