Does anyone have experience with property fence issues?

[MEmama]

There is a standard, 6 foot fence dividing one side of our yard with the neighbors. The fence belongs to them and they are responsible for it. It has been standing for approx 20 years; our house has sold twice with it in place and theirs at least once but possibly more. We have lived here for 10 years, they moved in ~5 years ago, give or take a year.

When they moved in they insisted our pre existing garden shed was too close to the fence line, and in a good faith effort to not make enemies of new neighbors we paid over $500 to have it moved. Our yard is tiny, so in moving the shed even a short distance it changed the entire backyard. I’ve made the best of it and created a lovely garden in its place. Fine. 
 

The portion of the fence along the side yard is deteriorating and pieces are falling into my well established vegetable and flower garden. I haven’t said a word, though DH has done some emergency repair work to prevent its total collapse from heavy wind and snow.  Yesterday we were told the fence would be replaced in late summer and oh yeah, it isn’t along the property line so they’ll be “remedying” that as well. Meaning, they’ll be moving the fence line into what we know of as our property. Even if it moves a foot, I’ll have to dig out my entire side garden and it will become useless. If this were a portion of yard with a normal amount of space I wouldn’t be bothered, but I’m literally losing all my raspberries and herbs and space where I grow vegetables, and it will turn into a very narrow strip of wasteland between our house and their fence. I am profoundly distressed.

I think they are technically correct that the fence is not on the property line, just as ours on the other side is not (I think it’s common for some reason that they be offset slightly). I know the rules around disputes varies by state and probably town, but it seems to me that the fence line is well enough established that we ought to have some rights. Our neighbors are pleasant enough when held at arms length, but there is a simmering ruthlessness about both of them and I’d rather it not get nasty. He is a lawyer and I’ve always had an uneasy sense about him (not because of his profession and he’s not dangerous, but there’s something I don’t trust). 
 

If anyone made it this far, do you have any insight into how we can handle this?

[skimomma]

Check your city ordinances.  In all likelihood, they are online.  Despite still living mostly in the dark ages, even my small city has these online if you know where to look.  Ours requires an 18" set-back from the property line.  And we are required to make the back side of our fence as attractive as the front side if it is visible from a neighboring property.  I'd start with knowing the rules.  They can still apply for a variance so again, being up on the rules will be important.

[MEmama]

Adding, I will also lose my backyard garden (that was formerly shed space) as well. All my established lilacs, all my pretty flowers will have to be ripped out. I’ll have to remove our entire compost/yard waste area and there isn’t space to put it anywhere else so we'll have to go without. Instead of a stone pathway to the garden it will become a pathway to their fence. Even a foot will change the yard drastically. I am so sad.
 

 

[Brittany1116]

Just commiseration here. Not the same situation but again a sticky fence issue. We have a fence that needs repair and soon replacing and someone is building on the lot behind us now. We have already had the awkward "find your property line" talk, very early on, because our fence was built a foot inside our line per fencing co policy, and the stakes were moved behind us several times as different workers came in. Our fence cost quite a pretty penny when we built it nearly 15 years ago and the cost to replace now would be the price of a decent small car. We are going to have to go in stages and get over how it looks in the meantime. I don't know of any law that would say a landowner has to forfeit property of any size based on time a fence has sat.

[fairfarmhand]

Get a survey. Also in some places there is a something...can't remember the exact word, but if a boundary is accepted long enough, eventually the state/city accepts it as the property line.

[kristin0713]

Did they have it surveyed? If not, tell them they have to. This happened with my parents’ neighbors and it was a mess. 

[fairfarmhand]

6 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Get a survey. Also in some places there is a something...can't remember the exact word, but if a boundary is accepted long enough, eventually the state/city accepts it as the property line.

It's called acquiescence. Ask the legislators of Georgia and Tennessee

https://www.timesnews.net/news/state/sure-enough-the-georgia-tennessee-border-is-in-the-wrong-place/article_9ccee828-3d7b-11ec-9352-b72d25cba352.html

[happi duck]

This sounds terrible.  I hope you can find out they're not allowed to ruin your yard.

 

[MEmama]

7 minutes ago, happi duck said:

This sounds terrible.  I hope you can find out they're not allowed to ruin your yard.

 

Yeah, it really sucks. To make it worse, she is a master gardener (tho you’d never know it by the mess of her yard, but that’s neither here nor there). She knows how much time and effort I’ve put into my gardens. Yet when she offhandedly mentioned being able to “finally remedy” the fence line and how that will affect my garden she sounded gleeful. 
 

They aren’t gaining anything. They have established plants along their side of the fenceline too, and their side yard is much bigger. It feels petty, just like with forcing us to move a garden shed that created them no issues. 
 

I know I have to keep my emotions out of it, but I don’t want to acquiesce if we don’t have to. 

[alisoncooks]

Oh, that sounds awful. I’d be very upset. 😟

Definitely get property records and a survey done, if you have any doubt at all about the actual boundary. If they are in the right…I don’t know. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Pay for a survey and figure out the setback ordinances.

[Katy]

Depending on the age of the homes, there might be buried stakes at each corner of the property line. When we called 611 or whatever the number is when you want to dig at our last house we mentioned the fence and wanting a survey to know where the line was. The guy marking in ground hazards did that for us for free. There was a piece of metal buried at the corners of every lot. He put flags up, took out a chalk line, and said if we marked the chalk line with spray paint that was the property line. And because he lived a few blocks over he could confirm we could put a fence on the property line, and said we should because if we set it back the 18” or whatever would go to the neighbors after 5 years or something. 

[Selkie]

That happened to us years ago at the first house we owned. We had to tear down a beautiful hedge that had been there for many years.🙁

[MEmama]

I’m searching in vain for any town specific residential fencing ordinances as far as set backs go, but it looks like unless there any, not only can they put up a fence on the property line, they can also force us to pay for half of it. So I might not just be losing part of my yard, I might get to shell out thousands of dollars to do so. 🤬

In the meantime, several pickets are about to fall into my raspberries and I’m afraid when they do they will break the canes. I’d just remove the rotting pickets but if I do their dog would be able to walk right into my yard (and from there the street). Not sure what to do, it’s a windy day and they are on borrowed time. 

 

[happi duck]

Mean people suck.

I hope you can quickly and easily find out that they can't move the fence.

Iiwm, I'd call the village hall to say I've lived here for 20 years with the neighbor having the same fence.  The neighbor is threatening to move the fence line into my yard.  

Do you know any good realtors you could meet with to ask questions?  It might be a simple way to get some idea of how to handle this.  If the realtor you bought or their office is still available hopefully they'd already be familiar.  You purchased the property the way it was with no thought that it would be ruined.

[wintermom]

What a head-ache for you. I wonder why they're suddenly doing this after living with the existing fence line for 5 years? 

All the best with this situation. Hope you can find the information you need. A real-estate lawyer might be worth the money to ask some questions to.

[JustEm]

I would contact a real- estate lawyer and ask them about acquiescence laws now before they have started the process.  In my state it is 20 years.  But I don't know what that means in terms of your property changing hands in those 20 years.

[MEmama]

16 minutes ago, happi duck said:

Mean people suck.

I hope you can quickly and easily find out that they can't move the fence.

Iiwm, I'd call the village hall to say I've lived here for 20 years with the neighbor having the same fence.  The neighbor is threatening to move the fence line into my yard.  

Do you know any good realtors you could meet with to ask questions?  It might be a simple way to get some idea of how to handle this.  If the realtor you bought or their office is still available hopefully they'd already be familiar.  You purchased the property the way it was with no thought that it would be ruined.

We contacted our realtor when they forced us to move the garden shed. I’m reasonably sure the shed should have been grandfathered in, but DH would rather give in and our realtor proved useless. I’m afraid this is going to be a repeat. 😞 

[amyx4]

I would suggest taking pictures and video of the fence now.  Then go to city/town hall and ask questions. Be very nice and wait cause sometimes sloths work there.😃 Finally, hire a surveyor and have the surveyor mark the property line with paint, chalk, etc.

This was enough to get a neighbor to stop verbally harassing us over where we parked our cars in our driveway in our first home. For some reason when the line was marked the guy stopped talking to us about our cars. We able to find someone that just charged for that one side.

Edited March 22, 2022 by amyx4

[JustEm]

4 minutes ago, MEmama said:

We contacted our realtor when they forced us to move the garden shed. I’m reasonably sure the shed should have been grandfathered in, but DH would rather give in and our realtor proved useless. I’m afraid this is going to be a repeat. 😞 

don't contact your realtor, contact a lawyer.  In regards to your dh, if he is likely to given in just accept that you are going to have to do all the legwork for figuring out what your legal rights are in terms of the fence line.

[MEmama]

20 minutes ago, wintermom said:

What a head-ache for you. I wonder why they're suddenly doing this after living with the existing fence line for 5 years? 

All the best with this situation. Hope you can find the information you need. A real-estate lawyer might be worth the money to ask some questions to.

Well the fence really is in process of falling down, so they can’t very well ignore it. They have a new dog that they leave out in the yard and even though the dog really is very stupid, eventually it will figure out that walking through the broken fence and into my yard not only means fresh garden beds to dig up, but also freedom since our yard isn’t enclosed.

I think they’ve been gunning for “resolving” the property line issue since they moved in and created the weird fuss about our shed.

I think a real estate lawyer is a good idea but there is a 0% chance DH will agree.

[I talk to the trees]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Pay for a survey and figure out the setback ordinances.

Yep. This. Because we didn’t want neighbors of any kind messing with our dogs, so we deliberately placed our chain link fence 3 feet inside our property. This worked fine until the nice elderly woman next door was pressured by her stepsons into moving out, and then we had issues with new neighbors who turned the house next door into an Air BnB (which is illegal here.) Some of their “guests” held drunken parties and wandered all over our yard. We now have property line markers and “no trespassing” signs at regular intervals down the length of our property. 🙄It’s ugly to look at, but the property line markers did the trick! 
 

eta: Sorry you’re dealing with this! Neighbors can really make or break a house!

Edited March 22, 2022 by I talk to the trees

[skimomma]

I would just call the city/town/village clerk and talk it over.  They will be able to tell you (or tell you who can tell you) if there is a pertinent ordinance and will also likely be able to recommend a surveyor if needed.  I wouldn't assume anything until you have all the info.

[livetoread]

As a fellow gardener, I'd be upset too. As someone married to an attorney who deals with these sorts of messes all the time, get a survey. If people surveyed and then fenced according to whatever ordinance all would be well. It's when they don't that problems happen. I think it's unlikely you will be able to salvage your garden which breaks my heart for you, but if you were gardening on their land, and they want to reclaim it, they probably have every right to do so. The survey establishes the correct boundaries once and for all. Sounds like you are a victim of the people before you not surveying, and that really sucks. Honestly, if I were replacing a fence, I would want it along the correct boundary line. Replacing it on the current, wrong boundary might be a short term solution, but in the long run, it's just a bigger and bigger mess. But I would want to be sure myself - thus the survey.

[Loowit]

My parents had to hire a lawyer, who sent a letter to the neighbors to get them to stop.  They tried to claim that my parents driveway was on their property, but my parents driveway is clearly on theirs, and it has been established there for over 60 years, since the previous owners so even in the neighbors were correct (which they weren't) they have no legal remedy at this point.

I would, if you can, contact a property lawyer who will know the laws and ordinances.  I would not give up part of my established backyard without a fight.  I am tired of bullies who get their way, emboldening them to keep being bullies.  Sorry, a lot of personal baggage I suppose.  But I would not just roll over and cater to them, especially if you have such a small backyard as is.

[MEmama]

8 minutes ago, skimomma said:

I would just call the city/town/village clerk and talk it over.  They will be able to tell you (or tell you who can tell you) if there is a pertinent ordinance and will also likely be able to recommend a surveyor if needed.  I wouldn't assume anything until you have all the info.

Yeah, I think I’ll need to go pay Town Hall a visit soon. We are pretty sure they are correct about the survey but you all are giving me a lot to think over. I’m compiling quite a list of specific questions, namely finding out how long the fence has existed and whether that changes the metric as a reasonable boundary.

[livetoread]

Dh was home for lunch and I ran the scenario by him. He said in our state (which is not Maine) it is a state law that establishes takeover of property and it is twenty-one years of misuse that can make the property change hands. So you might want to check state law.

 

[ikslo]

Can you use the Maine “Spite Fence” law to your advantage here, maybe?

[Kanin]

Oh no, I'm so sad on your behalf. That would crush me. Why can't neighbors just be reasonable?!

[MEmama]

38 minutes ago, livetoread said:

Dh was home for lunch and I ran the scenario by him. He said in our state (which is not Maine) it is a state law that establishes takeover of property and it is twenty-one years of misuse that can make the property change hands. So you might want to check state law.

 

Thank you— to both of you! 
From what I can tell, it’s 20 years here which *might* actually be the situation, but we would also have to be paying property tax on it, which obviously we aren’t and can't Idk how that would even be possible, but property stuff can be weird I guess.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Agree with a survey.  Depending on the survey then you can reevaluate your options.  We've hired a real estate attorney before and it wasn't as expensive as I thought that it would be. 

[MEmama]

20 minutes ago, ikslo said:

Can you use the Maine “Spite Fence” law to your advantage here, maybe?

I wish! But I'm guessing they have the right, even if it’s a Bad Neighbor thing to do. 
 

When I read about Spite Fences I imagined a fence made out of gigantic T*ump Riding A Bull Shirtless sorts of billboards along a property line. 🤣. Actually, in the fishing community where I used to work there was an ugly property dispute—the houses and properties go back hundreds of years so it was extra ridiculous. One of the neighbors did install some kind of petty billboard along the line trash talking the other neighbor— it didn’t last long. At least it isn’t that bad! 

[shawthorne44]

That is standard where I live.    When it is your fence, you build it a bit into your land so that you can access the far side of the fence for repairs.   So technically your plants are on their property.    But, I'd also look into what you can do about forbidding them from building the fence on the property line.    The logic should work the same.  If it is their fence they need to be able to repair it from your side.  

Note, sometimes neighbors share the fence and then can agree to build it on the property line.   I remember my parents took photos of the cheap neighbor assisting with building the fence for about a half hour when they built it on the property line.  That way they had proof that it was shared and agreed.  

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by shawthorne44

[Brittany1116]

1 minute ago, shawthorne44 said:

That is standard where I live.    When it is your fence, you build it a bit into your land so that you can access the far side of the fence for repairs.   So technically your plants are on their property.    But, I'd also look into what you can do about forbidding them from building the fence on the property line.    The logic should work the same.  If it is their fence they need to be able to repair it from your side.  

This is why ours had to be built in a foot, for repairs.

[itsheresomewhere]

Pay for a survey.  Worth every penny. 

[Paige]

The cost for an hour consult with an attorney is likely less than paying for half a fence- it would be worth it to me to get a clear understanding of my rights. Also, if your neighbor is an attorney, and if you have no legal obligation to comply with their requests, a letter from another attorney may be more persuasive than your say so. 

When we bought our house, we had a survey done that said our fence was well past the property line. It's like half our yard is past the property line. Fortunately, it's HOA land. The attorney said it was fine because the fence had been there so long that we just get the use of the land. I don't know if we're paying tax on it but I doubt it because it's still not included in the plot.

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, Paige said:

The cost for an hour consult with an attorney is likely less than paying for half a fence- it would be worth it to me to get a clear understanding of my rights. Also, if your neighbor is an attorney, and if you have no legal obligation to comply with their requests, a letter from another attorney may be more persuasive than your say so. 

When we bought our house, we had a survey done that said our fence was well past the property line. It's like half our yard is past the property line. Fortunately, it's HOA land. The attorney said it was fine because the fence had been there so long that we just get the use of the land. I don't know if we're paying tax on it but I doubt it because it's still not included in the plot.

Our real estate attorney was too nice.  I read his first draft of a letter, wrote my own, and then he signed it.  🙂 I needed his signature as an attorney and he also gave good advice but he wasn't direct enough for the situation I was dealing with. 

[Katy]

Call the real estate attorneys in your town. Even if they don't have a free consult IME lawyers love to give advice and will often do so over the phone for free.

[kristin0713]

3 hours ago, livetoread said:

Dh was home for lunch and I ran the scenario by him. He said in our state (which is not Maine) it is a state law that establishes takeover of property and it is twenty-one years of misuse that can make the property change hands. So you might want to check state law.

 

This is so interesting. My parents’  neighborhood is over 30 years old and a lot of property lines have been blurred over the years as most people don’t have fences. I think if the neighbors knew this when the new people put up a fence, things would have went down differently. 

[TexasProud]

Yes, now when each of you bought the house as part of the title, there should have been a survey either done or referenced.  When we bought our first house in 1996 in this small town, we were all set to close. Then they discovered that the dog run and part of the fence was part of the property owned by people that lived diagonally from us in the back yard. The people selling the house built it in 1969 and were the original owners. The people living in the house that was diagonal had no issues whatsoever with it, but because they had a mortgage on it, we had to get clearance for it from the bank, not the people living there....  Well, it delayed our closing by 6 months. We rented the house from the owners.  It never did get resolved, but after 6 months, the mortgage companies finally just said oh well, I guess.  I was a little terrified in 1998 when we sold it to move into our current house, but that issue never came up.

So there should be a survey with your title somewhere. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by TexasProud

[MEmama]

28 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

This is so interesting. My parents’  neighborhood is over 30 years old and a lot of property lines have been blurred over the years as most people don’t have fences. I think if the neighbors knew this when the new people put up a fence, things would have went down differently. 

I think that’s really common. My direct neighborhood has houses from pre-Revolutionary War to new builds and everything in between. I’m sure the lots today are a mishmash of properly surveyed and partitioned to “well, that’s just how it’s always been”. 
 

Our property was originally part of our neighbors land. The owner of their house built our house for his sister back in 1950 and divided the property. I’d like to find out when the fence was built, and for that matter, if there was a fence in the same place preceding the current one. It might very well be that part of our yard technically belongs to them, but if it’s been fenced in the same place for 70 years, I wonder if that might give us some rights to it. 

[shawthorne44]

42 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Our property was originally part of our neighbors land.

 

Same as ours but even more so.  The houses on either side of us were owned by the original owner.   One his mother lived in and the other he used as an electronics shop.   Fortunately we haven't had a problem.   But the boundary is a bit fuzzy.    Our real problem is with the other next door neighbor (very deep property) that is insane.   

Plus we bought the nice house next to us (probably better than ours) and the owner of the other knows we'd like theirs.  
 

[Ausmumof3]

We have had the opposite drama. We figured out when looking on Google earth that our fence was about 15 m into our property. It was a pretty big chunk of flat land which is at a premium here so we moved it. It was only being used to store junk and we moved that for the guy as well. The other neighbours fence is set into our property a metre as well and their shed is on it but we didn’t do anything about that. They are nice neighbours and we didn’t want them to have to move their shed etc and it’s no big deal.

I do kind of get it though. If they bought and paid for a certain size block they probably want that size block. If they ever want to subdivide have a specific size might work for or against them. That sucks for you with your flowers though 😞 There is squatters rights laws here but I’m not sure how they work with fence disputes. I do know that you have to pay half for a replacement fence. However you have to pay half the cost for a standard fence - if one neighbour wants to put up something fancy or different they have to pay the difference. 
 

If you have the money, a survey might help to make sure everything’s right from now on so you can don’t have to deal with it. You might find you block is bigger in the other side (this happened to friends). All the houses on the street were shuffled down a bit from where they should be.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[MEmama]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I do kind of get it though. If they bought and paid for a certain size block they probably want that size block. If they ever want to subdivide have a specific size might work for or against them

Yeah, I *think* we are talking like a foot or two, though. Our lots are small, there’s definitely no subdividing going on here!

I measured our side yard today—it faces south so that’s where I grow most of my veggies, and where my raspberry and herb/flower boxes are. It is a whopping 14 feet wide from our foundation to the current fence. In that area is squeezed a 3-4 foot gravel drip line/French drain area where I keep my veggie boxes, the raspberry etc boxes (lengthwise), and a couple feet of hostas, day lilies and so on along the fence. If the fence is placed past the hosta bed, I won’t have access to the far side of my raspberries or herbs. They’ve been in place for the better part of 10 years and can’t just be moved, plus I have nowhere to move them to.

Sigh. This is making me sad. 

[MEmama]

The narrow side yard for reference, taken last summer

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

The narrow side yard for reference, taken last summer

This is beautiful! I am sad for you! 😥

[livetoread]

So pretty. I would be heartsick.

 

[ikslo]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

I wish! But I'm guessing they have the right, even if it’s a Bad Neighbor thing to do. 
 

When I read about Spite Fences I imagined a fence made out of gigantic T*ump Riding A Bull Shirtless sorts of billboards along a property line. 🤣. Actually, in the fishing community where I used to work there was an ugly property dispute—the houses and properties go back hundreds of years so it was extra ridiculous. One of the neighbors did install some kind of petty billboard along the line trash talking the other neighbor— it didn’t last long. At least it isn’t that bad! 

Can also be otherwise legal/normal fence put up with malicious intent from what I read. Not that I think they are doing this maliciously, but if she gleeful tells you she’s doing it out of spite for some currently unknown to you reason, well then, it might play into how this plays out.

[Eos]

Damn they are being so annoying.  Could you ever buy that strip from them?  Agree with getting a new survey if there's any doubt.

[J-rap]

I'm really sorry.  Ugh.  My dh was an attorney and he worked with relatives who had a similar situation.  They first needed a survey done before anything else, so I'd start with that.  I'm not sure who pays...  Maybe you could split the cost?  Depending on the state laws, it can play out differently, sometimes depending on how long it's been going on.  Even with the best attorney, the survey is what it is.  In our state, people are allowed to build a fence right on the property line, but they pay for it all if they want it.    Your yard looks beautiful!  It reminds me of our last home, small yard but lovely little garden.