WWYD “joke” edition

[Rosie_0801]

18 minutes ago, saraha said:

 I am ashamed of the way I ended up screaming at her,

Don't be. She earned it.

I offer my most sincere congratulations.

[Corraleno]

I'm sorry things got so ugly that she dragged your kids into it. Agreeing with others — don't talk to her tomorrow, or the next day, or at all until you feel calm and confident enough that she can't intimidate or hurt you. Cutting off a toxic relative that you've been caught in a dysfunctional dance with for many decades can leave you feeling shell shocked and wounded, but I promise the more distance and clarity you get, the lighter you'll feel, and eventually you'll wonder why you carried that burden with you for so long.  Sending you big hugs and warm wishes for a peaceful Thanksgiving at home with the family that love and appreciate you.

[Shoeless]

@saraha(((hugs)))

Rosie is right.

I don't want to hijack your thread with my story.  Just know that I get it. Briefly, when someone took a swipe at my kid...the stuff that came out of my mouth stunned me.  It was like an out of body experience, because half of my brain was listening to what I was saying and thinking "Oh wow...that's bad. There's no coming back from any of this".  It was really bad.  Yet I couldn't stop saying all the really awful stuff that needed to be said.  I had an emotional hangover for awhile.

I wish I lived near you because I'd come over with tea and just sit with you while you processed this. ❤️

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by MissLemon

[saraha]

2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

@saraha(((hugs)))

Rosie is right.

I don't want to hijack your thread with my story.  Just know that I get it. Briefly, when someone took a swipe at my kid...the stuff that came out of my mouth stunned me.  It was like an out of body experience, because half of my brain was listening to what I was saying and thinking "Oh wow...that's bad. There's no coming back from any of this".  It was really bad.  I had an emotional hangover for awhile.

I wish I lived near you because I'd come over with tea and just sit with you while you processed this. ❤️

 

Every bit of this. I wish you could come over with tea too. I just keep thinking if I had just kept my mouth shut it would all be fine, meaning going on like before. But there is no going back from screaming at my mother that she told a lie. Out of body experience is an accurate description.

[saraha]

15 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Don't be. She earned it.

I offer my most sincere congratulations.

Thanks

Edited November 23, 2021 by saraha

[SKL]

"No Mom, I don't think ___ would find that funny."

Next topic.

[Shoeless]

9 minutes ago, saraha said:

Every bit of this. I wish you could come over with tea too. I just keep thinking if I had just kept my mouth shut it would all be fine, meaning going on like before. But there is no going back from screaming at my mother that she told a lie. Out of body experience is an accurate description.

❤️

You did the right thing.  It may not feel like it right now, but you did the right thing. ❤️ It's never wrong for you to defend your children, even if the attacker is (mean) grandma.

[Tanaqui]

If you'd kept your mouth shut, it would NOT have been fine. It was NEVER fine.

Do you participate in any forums, subreddits, etc for people with toxic/abusive parents? They may be able to give you more targeted advice for how to handle things now.

[gardenmom5]

8 hours ago, saraha said:

I don’t want to play the joke but can’t figure out how to get out of this situation with no one being mad. I texted sis hoping she would say “ah, got it. I won’t be mad at him and he can play the joke so mom won’t be mad either” but she hasn’t responded to my texts for an unknown reason. Should I try texting her again? I texted yesterday and this morning.

Narcs will get angry when things don't go their way.  It's just one of the things they do.

Do NOT allow her to drag  your son into her web, she wants to use him for nefarious purposes.  He's 11, he doesn't understand the long term repercussions - but they are there.

if she's mad, so be it.  I'd not your problem if you refuse to play a narcissists petty and mean game of dissing her own daughter (and using her grandson to do it.) - and she's gets angry.  Tough cookies.  You do NOT have to be her audience when the tantrum ensues.  "talk to you later. gotta go mom"

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

It’s all so wrong. She has never used the kids like this before. She has set my sis and I at each other, I think there is even a mention on here somewhere where some one told me about triangulation. But the kids, never. I can’t believe she could tell such a bald face lie and think that my sister wouldn’t say anything to me about it. I am ashamed of the way I ended up screaming at her, but she just kept denying denying denying and then tried to turn it around and say the kids are liars and that was my undoing. She called all 6 of my kids liars. 

And now she's setting your kids against your sister. and it will be your sister against your kids.  (are you and your sister getting along?  is she afraid of you becoming confederate against her?)  I guess you just weren't giving her enough supply. . . 

the denial is gaslighting.

a couple pieces of advice:

Dr. Ramani on youtube.  You will be stunned by how she "gets" your family.  narcissists are not creative.  There are different types of narcs, but among each group, they tend to play the same games.  Very unoriginal.

Boundaries, when to say yes, how to say no by Townsend and Cloud.  It's a book.

 

pat yourself on the back for not allowing it.  My grandmother pitted us against each other.  My mother was a mentally ill single child - who taught us to make grandma happy.  It was not good at all.  It was evil.

yeah - it would have been better for her children if my mother had put her children first and didn't care about the middle age woman throwing a tantrum.

Edited November 23, 2021 by gardenmom5

[Indigo Blue]

I hope you have a peaceful Thanksgiving with your family. Enjoy it. My suggestions: If your mom calls, don’t answer, or have Dh tell her you won’t be taking calls today. Make the day special for you and your family. Don’t forget to come back here to report how nice it was. Ensure that it’s a zero drama day. 

[HS Mom in NC]

You should be proud of yelling at her. There's a time and place for yelling at someone. Well done!

Refuse to be the drama queens' audience. Don't attend anymore performances. Don't reply to them. Block them because there is no "fine" with them.  "Fine" was an illusion. Start looking for a therapist.

[lauraw4321]

Oh my. So many hugs to you. Good job. I agree about finding a therapist. I hope you can invite your sister to your house and have a lovely TGiving with her. With turkey. 

[theelfqueen]

This totally sucks.

And I am even more proud of you.

Screw that nonsense. Have a lovely Thanksgiving at home. A meal without malice is sure to be better for everyone. 

Tell the kids Sorry, Grandma isnt able to host Thanksgiving after all. FULL STOP. 

The have everybody wear pajamas all day and have a Pajamagiving. Hang out. Play games. Enjoy one another's company. Take it easy. Or get out the China and go all out. Or make pizzas. Or whatever. But do it together. And it will be okay. 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by theelfqueen

[math teacher]

@sarahaMy heart hurts for you-you have absolutely done the right thing. I agree with the others about not talking to her this weekend-or until much later. Finding a therapist, youtube videos, and Boundaries is something for you to work on in the quiet of this weekend. 

Enjoy your family!! Make it as simple or elaborate as you feel like, but just enjoy the togetherness!! You have a lot of people on your side!!

 

[Indigo Blue]

I second the recommendation for Dr. Ramini. She is great. There are other good ones, too. Les Carter, for example. He advertises his workshops, but his videos are good. Dr. Grande is good, too. He is very deadpan, but he is SO full of knowledge. Sorry, I got a bit carried away and posted 3 for you. 

 

 

[saraha]

You guys have been so kind and supportive while I work through this. Yesterday did not go like I thought at all! For myself, I have to type this out so that I can reference this thread over the next few days as a source of strength.

Yesterday evening I call mom and choose my words carefully to say that sis might  not think the joke is funny, so we shouldn't do it. Make sure to use words that do not imply anything negative about mom. After trying to convince me otherwise, she leaves it at, well I only paid $5 for the shirt and ds11 can just have it. Your sister will never see it. Now, lets talk about dessert.

As soon as we hang up after talking about dessert, mom calls sis as fast as her fingers can dial. Sis says hello, and mom says I just got done talking to Sarah and she said you might not come for Thanksgiving (WHAT?!? I didn't say anything even close to that. Lie #1) Sis is like, um I just talked to you three days ago. I wish we were having Thanksgiving food but we're not and I am coming. Mom tells her, well you were outvoted. I want the kids to pick dinner (they didn't, she gave them a list to choose from and heavily hinted she wanted to have tacos, so the kids said yeah tacos) Sis says, mom you are the host, you are cooking it, you can pick whatever you want. Mom goes on insisting she didn't pick, the kids did. Sis is like ok... Mom gets to the real reason she called, she tells my sister that WE (her and the kids) got this taco t shirt to play a joke and wouldn't that have been funny? Oh and WE got her a turkey lunchable haha. (Because she wants to prove to me that I was wrong and she was right and sis would think it was funny. Also lie #2, we had nothing to do with that t shirt or the turkey lunchable) Sis says, well actually, Im glad you told me about that because that is kind of annoying and would have hurt my feelings that you were rubbing it in my face that we weren't having turkey. You know mom, this is my only chance to have a traditional thanksgiving and not only do we never do that, but you like to rub it in my face for some reason. Sis starts crying. Mom says, well you know, its been the kids teasing you all these years by picking nontradtional meals. (Huge HUGE lie #3) I was just playing along. Sis gets off the phone and immediately starts blowing up my phone with very convoluted texts.

I call sis and ask what is going on. She relays above conversation. I confirm, she said the kids have been planning these dinners all these years to "tease" you? At this point I am shaking I am so angry at her. She called sis to prove me wrong about the joke, finds out I was right, then throws my children under the bus. What the actual heck. Sis begs me not to say anything, she is just going to put up with it, don't ruin thanksgiving. I say nope, she can do what she wants to us, but she has crossed the line blaming the kids. Sis says, I know its not true, just let it go. Me- nope

I take 10 deep breaths and use the adrenaline shooting through me to stand up to my mom. I call her and calmly but firmly ask- Did you just call sis and tell her that the kids have been planning these nontraditional dinners all these years to get at her? Mom replies, no, I said they were doing it to tease her. I answer back that is a lie. Arguement ensues where she is trying to convince me that my own children have been masterminding this campaign against my sister and she has just been going along. Oh My Gosh, I feel like I am in some alternate reality and start screaming at her because she just keeps talking and doubles down on her story. The yelling on my part was ridiculous and I regret losing my cool. At one point my mom tries to change the arguement to I am a fantastic grandma who just wants her grandkids to have a great day and not eat food they don't like. I react like What are you even talking about?!?  This is not about food, this is about you telling sis a lie about my children to save face! She starts crying and repeating that she let the kids pick the meal because she loves them, she doesn't even like tacos (stupid lie #4, like why even?!?) She yells so sue me for loving my grandkids and my head literally explodes and I yell What?!? So you are the HERO now?!? She hangs up on me.

She immediately calls sis crying and yells into the phone "What are you doing?!?" Implying that my sis is stirring up trouble. My sister, who at this point could have thrown me under the bus and become the golden child says, "Well, I don't know what you and Sarah are doing but I am driving home from the restaurant that I was at when you called me and started this." Mom tells her "Sarah just called me screaming and carrying on and saying I put the kids into a lie" Note she changed the syntax from I lied about the kids, to I put the kids into a lie. She goes on crying and repeating I just let the kids pick the meal. Sis replies, "Mom, we all know this is about you. You tell the kids what you want for Thanksgiving and they agree. You are allowed, you are the host. What is not nice is the mean teasing you do that hurts my feelings." Mom screams at her "Do not come to my house! Thanksgiving is canceled!" and hangs up on her.

Sis calls me and we exchange notes about all the phone calls, she reassures me she knows the kids have done nothing wrong or mean spirited toward her, and she cries because she is lonely and just wants us to be normal.

Dh comes home, I hang up with sis, we put the kids to bed and he gets a blow by blow. By the time I get done telling the story, I am an emotional mess. My mom calls my cell phone and I freak the heck out. Dh takes the phone away and says you can talk to her tomorrow if you want. Dh listens to the voicemail and gives me a rundown of what it says because I have gone into full blown panic mode.

I decide to listen to the voicemail, she left a super dramatic message in her best martyr voice. "Sarah, this is your mom. I don't know what the he11 is going on but Thanksgiving is canceled. You got my message wrong. (Wait, what message?) Tell the kids I will always love them, no matter what and I hope that they have a good day. (Pause) On thanksgiving (pause) at your house (pause) with you (pause) and Todd. Heavy sigh, because there will be no thanksgiving here. Good bye" Some how listening to this actually makes me feel better because she did not call to scream more, or to fake apologize like I was afraid of. It is super bizarre and Dh is like, your mom is crazy. I want you to listen to this message every time you start blaming yourself for this or start feeling sorry for your mom. She is already rewriting the history of this night. She knows exactly what happened, but now she is playing the wounded grandma who is being wronged by you and she has no idea why you have been so mean to her. Don't believe it, its not true.

Whew. Thanks for all of your help and support. I know how I end up playing mind games with myself until I end up taking on the blame for her behavior so that we can continue the relationship. I don't want to do that this time. I know this is a super public forum and that I am airing our dirty laundry, but I really need to do this. I really need to be able to access all of this support and an accurate rendering of the events so I don't fall back into old patterns.

Thanks so much everybody.

[maize]

Could you and your sister have a nice Thanksgiving dinner at your house?

[fairfarmhand]

5 minutes ago, maize said:

Could you and your sister have a nice Thanksgiving dinner at your house?

Do this.

Your sister and you have been caught up in some bizarre manipulations. Just get to know her without mom triangulating.  You sister sounds like she handled things okay.

[alisoncooks]

5 minutes ago, maize said:

Could you and your sister have a nice Thanksgiving dinner at your house?

That’s what I’d do. Sounds like it could be nice, since y’all are on the same page. Have turkey. 

[Scarlett]

Girl!  I am so proud of you and I feel soo bad for you as well.  And I am so glad you have such a supportive husband and that you and your sister are  on the same page basically.

I hope you can enjoy your day and not give your mom too much head space---zero head space will be impossible at this juncture....but you made big strides yesterday.

(((Hugs)))

[Catwoman]

Sarah, I know you are feeling badly about having yelled at your mom, but it was the best thing you could have done. Seriously. You are filled with so much emotion and you had to get it out, and she deserved every last word of it. She did TERRIBLE things. She said TERRIBLE things to you, and she said TERRIBLE things about your children. She LIED, often and repeatedly. She tried to turn you and your sister against each other. 

The best thing you can do is walk away. Don't take her calls. Let them go straight to voicemail, and then don't listen to the messages. If you want your dh to listen to them, that's fine, but don't get sucked into her drama by listening to them yourself. 

And because Christmas is right around the corner, make your plans now, and stick with them, and figure out how you can let your mom know that you won't be seeing her. Your dh sounds like a great guy, and he is not afraid to stand up to your mom, so if you're scared to confront her or to get caught up in her tirades (and it's understandable if you are,) let him take the reigns here and protect your family from her cruelty. It sounds like he will be more than willing to do that for you, and it would remove a lot of stress from your life to know that you don't have to talk to her, and that your dh will take care of things for you.

Sending you so many hugs! I know we are all incredibly proud of you for standing up to her and for defending your kids. It was so hard, but YOU DID IT!!!

[Pam in CT]

12 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

That’s what I’d do. Sounds like it could be nice, since y’all are on the same page. Have turkey. 

Have whatever the heck you want.  Or Turkey AND tacos AND tortellini AND takeout.

[Matryoshka]

14 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Do this.

Your sister and you have been caught up in some bizarre manipulations. Just get to know her without mom triangulating.  You sister sounds like she handled things okay.

Yeah, your poor sister.   Please invite her for Thanksgiving (and if you could manage a couple of traditional things even as sides that would be so kind) - at least you have your family and kids, sounds like your sis will be all alone otherwise, and it sounds like she's been the victim of some really serious manipulation and cruelty for years.  Bravo to both of you for standing up to your mom.  She is nuts. 

I will echo others and say don't answer her calls or texts or emails - and don't read them or listen to the voice mails - at the very least till after Thanksgiving, heck, maybe not till after all the holidays.

[Spryte]

9 hours ago, MissLemon said:

@saraha(((hugs)))

Rosie is right.

I don't want to hijack your thread with my story.  Just know that I get it. Briefly, when someone took a swipe at my kid...the stuff that came out of my mouth stunned me.  It was like an out of body experience, because half of my brain was listening to what I was saying and thinking "Oh wow...that's bad. There's no coming back from any of this".  It was really bad.  Yet I couldn't stop saying all the really awful stuff that needed to be said.  I had an emotional hangover for awhile.

I wish I lived near you because I'd come over with tea and just sit with you while you processed this. ❤️

 

Oh yeh. Here, too. I was stunned by what came out, too. Years of being treated like a second class family member, the after-thought, wow, it adds up.

@sarahaYou are not alone!

Breathe deeply, and know you have support here. I hope you have an amazing day with your kids and family, possibly your sister. And eat anything you want, and she wants—if she comes to your place.

[Annie G]

Sarah, I’m so proud of you. It was a hard thing to do and you did it.  I hope your sis will come crash on your couch and enjoy some family time.  
 

[Shoeless]

Another person that is so proud of you! You handled this beautifully.

I know it feels awful to yell like that, but it was 100% justified. Post as much as you want. When the poo hit the fan with my narc, I ranted and posted about it a LOT. It helped to have other people say "Yeah, none of that was ok. No, you aren't crazy".

Invite your sister for Thanksgiving if you can! It's not too late to get everything for Thursday!

Also, don't be surprised if Thursday comes around and your mom calls you and your sister moaning about how she made alllll this food and no one came for Thanksgiving and she's a pooooor old grandma alone on the holidays blah blah blah. She'll keep trying to rewrite the narrative in the hope that she'll find one that sticks.

[saraha]

11 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Another person that is so proud of you! You handled this beautifully.

I know it feels awful to yell like that, but it was 100% justified. Post as much as you want. When the poo hit the fan with my narc, I ranted and posted about it a LOT. It helped to have other people say "Yeah, none of that was ok. No, you aren't crazy".

Invite your sister for Thanksgiving if you can! It's not too late to get everything for Thursday!

Also, don't be surprised if Thursday comes around and your mom calls you and your sister moaning about how she made alllll this food and no one came for Thanksgiving and she's a pooooor old grandma alone on the holidays blah blah blah. She'll keep trying to rewrite the narrative in the hope that she'll find one that sticks.

Dh said this very thing. He’s like you keep listening to that voicemail to remind yourself 

[saraha]

My house is in the middle of some repair work that has dragged on for months and sis lives 6 hours away so she would have to stay the night. Dh suggested we find a restaurant between us somewhere and we each make the three hour drive to meet. She is looking for someplace. She said she was calling mom after work. She wants to patch it all up. I do not, yet anyway 

[scholastica]

Your mother is mentally ill and does not how to get her needs met in healthy ways. She has conditioned you and your sister in her maladaptive ways of trying to get her needs met. Please seek help for yourself, please separate yourself from your mother until she gets help. You and your sister might benefit from counseling together.

[saraha]

My sister and I have communicated more in the last 24 hours than I’m the last 2 months. My only thing is she is ready to keep the drama going instead of giving it a few days to cool off

[Shoeless]

4 minutes ago, saraha said:

My house is in the middle of some repair work that has dragged on for months and sis lives 6 hours away so she would have to stay the night. Dh suggested we find a restaurant between us somewhere and we each make the three hour drive to meet. She is looking for someplace. She said she was calling mom after work. She wants to patch it all up. I do not, yet anyway 

Hmm, it's a little concerning that she's trying to patch things up. I'm concerned that you could show up for dinner at a restaurant, and surprise! Sister talked mom into going and now you're pressured into sweeping it under the rug.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

Hmm, it's a little concerning that she's trying to patch things up. I'm concerned that you could show up for dinner at a restaurant, and surprise! Sister talked mom into going and now you're pressured into sweeping it under the rug.

I agree.

Honestly, based on this new info, I'm not sure you should see your sister on Thanksgiving after all. Even if your mom isn't there, you might end up spending the whole day debating about whether or not to patch things up with her, and that would be very stressful for you (and your dh and kids, too.) 

If I were you, I wouldn't let your sister suck you back into the drama. I'm sure she isn't trying to hurt you in any way, but you have already said that both your mom and your sister are drama queens, and drama queens are exactly what you don't need right now. Take some time to yourself and enjoy your holiday season with your dh and your kids. Everyone else is optional.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Be careful.  If Sis has a history of narc tendencies as stated upthread, remember that she could easily interpret Mommy Dearest's cancellation and your yelling at Mommy Dearest as Sis winning you to Sis's side in the Narc Wars. You're emotionally vulnerable right now.  I again advise you to not invite her over for Thanksgiving. I know the wounded here have a hard time putting their lens of not bring accepted/included aside when replying to this situation. I'll be the voice of cold, hard reality from years of drawing and holding lines against a dysfunctional family. 

You have stated Sis has narc tendencies and is a drama queen too.  For example, the nonsense that Mommy Dearest's Thanksgivings are "[Sis's] only opportunity for a traditional Thanksgiving dinner."  Nope.  Not true. It's never been true.  It will never be true. She could choose to do her own traditional Thanksgiving and offer to host at a different meal than Mommy Dearest's, (so as to not make people choose between her and Mommy Dearest)  and whoever shows up shows up, but she decided not to for all these years.  She could order grocery store traditional Thanksgiving if she's too busy to do the cooking herself.  She's chose not to. She could plan to meet loved ones at a restaurant instead so it's neutral territory and there is no host to dictate anything. She chose not to. She could simply choose to bow out of Mommy Dearest's abuse and not be there. She chose not to.  People do all of the above every year whether they have functional or dysfunctional families. All are valid options in spite of what the latest brainless Hallmark movie is spewing out.  She needs to be viewed through the lens of her choices of the options available to all of us every year. Do not get suckered into pitying her as an innocent, helpless victim in danger of not having the essential need of turkey for dinner with her sibling present. That's a want, not a need.

Be very, very careful with your Sis. Do not rely on her for perspective or emotional support about any of this. Don't have her over and try to manage her if she turns it into a victory dinner over Mommy Dearest.  Keep some distance until you can get some licensed professional help for you to navigate all the crazy. There are decades of layers of crazy that you've been subjected to your whole life; that's going to take time to unpack.  No one will die missing out on Thanksgiving with you this year-not Mommy Dearest and not Sis.  Sis isn't in a desperate situation.  You gave her the gift of a cancellation at Mommy Dearest's.  She needs time to reflect and recuperate away from extended family just as much as you do.  It's good for her to take this holiday time on her own to think about how she wants to celebrate.  Let her. 

Don't be surprised if Mommy Dearest reinstates her invitation with a non-apology apology.  Don't be surprised if Sis finds a reason to attend at Mommy Dearest's Thanksgiving or resumes phone/text arguments with her.  Don't be surprised if some other new form of crazy comes from one or both of them. Don't be surprised if they try to pull you back in over the next holiday or something else. Stay away from the crazy.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Be careful.  If Sis has a history of narc tendencies as stated upthread, remember that she could easily interpret Mommy Dearest's cancellation and your yelling at Mommy Dearest as Sis winning you to Sis's side in the Narc Wars. You're emotionally vulnerable right now.  I again advise you to not invite her over for Thanksgiving. I know the wounded here have a hard time putting their lens of not bring accepted/included aside when replying to this situation. I'll be the voice of cold, hard reality from years of drawing and holding lines against a dysfunctional family. 

You have stated Sis has narc tendencies and is a drama queen too.  For example, the nonsense that Mommy Dearest's Thanksgivings are "[Sis's] only opportunity for a traditional Thanksgiving dinner."  Nope.  Not true. It's never been true.  It will never be true. She could choose to do her own traditional Thanksgiving and offer to host at a different meal than Mommy Dearest's, (so as to not make people choose between her and Mommy Dearest)  and whoever shows up shows up, but she decided not to for all these years.  She could order grocery store traditional Thanksgiving if she's too busy to do the cooking herself.  She's chose not to. She could plan to meet loved ones at a restaurant instead so it's neutral territory and there is no host to dictate anything. She chose not to. She could simply choose to bow out of Mommy Dearest's abuse and not be there. She chose not to.  People do all of the above every year whether they have functional or dysfunctional families. All are valid options in spite of what the latest brainless Hallmark movie is spewing out.  She needs to be viewed through the lens of her choices of the options available to all of us every year. Do not get suckered into pitying her as an innocent, helpless victim in danger of not having the essential need of turkey for dinner with her sibling present. That's a want, not a need.

Be very, very careful with your Sis. Do not rely on her for perspective or emotional support about any of this. Don't have her over and try to manage her if she turns it into a victory dinner over Mommy Dearest.  Keep some distance until you can get some licensed professional help for you to navigate all the crazy. There are decades of layers of crazy that you've been subjected to your whole life; that's going to take time to unpack.  No one will die missing out on Thanksgiving with you this year-not Mommy Dearest and not Sis.  Sis isn't in a desperate situation.  You gave her the gift of a cancellation at Mommy Dearest's.  She needs time to reflect and recuperate away from extended family just as much as you do.  It's good for her to take this holiday time on her own to think about how she wants to celebrate.  Let her. 

Don't be surprised if Mommy Dearest reinstates her invitation with a non-apology apology.  Don't be surprised if Sis finds a reason to attend at Mommy Dearest's Thanksgiving or resumes phone/text arguments with her.  Don't be surprised if some other new form of crazy comes from one or both of them. Don't be surprised if they try to pull you back in over the next holiday or something else. Stay away from the crazy.

Yes, and also don't be surprised if Mom and Sister reconcile and try to turn you into the enemy. 

They may want to blame someone, and if they aren't going to blame each other, who's left? 😞 

 

[fairfarmhand]

32 minutes ago, saraha said:

My house is in the middle of some repair work that has dragged on for months and sis lives 6 hours away so she would have to stay the night. Dh suggested we find a restaurant between us somewhere and we each make the three hour drive to meet. She is looking for someplace. She said she was calling mom after work. She wants to patch it all up. I do not, yet anyway 

Sis, i see what you're trying to do, but I'm willing to drive to see you because I cannot be around mom for a few weeks. She tried to manipulate my CHILD into taking part of this craziness and I'm committed to keeping my kids out of this level of crazy. I understand if you want to be with mom,  but please know, that it's not about you. I love you and want to see you. But if you go to moms, have a great time and I'll see you some other time because I won't be there. 

If you end up meeting at a restaurant just say "I need this to be between my family and you. Please do not invite mom or even tell her about it. Because I need space from mom. I trust that you can respect that. I'm just now figuring out how terribly unhealthy some stuff is and I can't wade into that when I'm around her."

[saraha]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Be careful.  If Sis has a history of narc tendencies as stated upthread, remember that she could easily interpret Mommy Dearest's cancellation and your yelling at Mommy Dearest as Sis winning you to Sis's side in the Narc Wars. You're emotionally vulnerable right now.  I again advise you to not invite her over for Thanksgiving. I know the wounded here have a hard time putting their lens of not bring accepted/included aside when replying to this situation. I'll be the voice of cold, hard reality from years of drawing and holding lines against a dysfunctional family. 

You have stated Sis has narc tendencies and is a drama queen too.  For example, the nonsense that Mommy Dearest's Thanksgivings are "[Sis's] only opportunity for a traditional Thanksgiving dinner."  Nope.  Not true. It's never been true.  It will never be true. She could choose to do her own traditional Thanksgiving and offer to host at a different meal than Mommy Dearest's, (so as to not make people choose between her and Mommy Dearest)  and whoever shows up shows up, but she decided not to for all these years.  She could order grocery store traditional Thanksgiving if she's too busy to do the cooking herself.  She's chose not to. She could plan to meet loved ones at a restaurant instead so it's neutral territory and there is no host to dictate anything. She chose not to. She could simply choose to bow out of Mommy Dearest's abuse and not be there. She chose not to.  People do all of the above every year whether they have functional or dysfunctional families. All are valid options in spite of what the latest brainless Hallmark movie is spewing out.  She needs to be viewed through the lens of her choices of the options available to all of us every year. Do not get suckered into pitying her as an innocent, helpless victim in danger of not having the essential need of turkey for dinner with her sibling present. That's a want, not a need.

Be very, very careful with your Sis. Do not rely on her for perspective or emotional support about any of this. Don't have her over and try to manage her if she turns it into a victory dinner over Mommy Dearest.  Keep some distance until you can get some licensed professional help for you to navigate all the crazy. There are decades of layers of crazy that you've been subjected to your whole life; that's going to take time to unpack.  No one will die missing out on Thanksgiving with you this year-not Mommy Dearest and not Sis.  Sis isn't in a desperate situation.  You gave her the gift of a cancellation at Mommy Dearest's.  She needs time to reflect and recuperate away from extended family just as much as you do.  It's good for her to take this holiday time on her own to think about how she wants to celebrate.  Let her. 

Don't be surprised if Mommy Dearest reinstates her invitation with a non-apology apology.  Don't be surprised if Sis finds a reason to attend at Mommy Dearest's Thanksgiving or resumes phone/text arguments with her.  Don't be surprised if some other new form of crazy comes from one or both of them. Don't be surprised if they try to pull you back in over the next holiday or something else. Stay away from the crazy.

Crap. I wish I had seen this earlier. I texted sis this morning, asked how she was. Then told her dh’s idea of meeting at a restaurant. We talked about that a bit. Then sent a text saying she was calling mom after work. I responded don’t you want to give it a couple of days. She responded “no reason everyone needs to be suffering. It’s just crappy what she did “ I told her I don’t understand what she means but didn’t get any response, but she’s also at work so could be busy. Then later I sent a text that said if you do talk to her, please don’t mention alternative plans. But now I’m kicking myself for feeling like we were a team when that had never been the case before last night, and any of the above scenarios were I end up the bad guy are entirely possible. I was afraid of missing the opportunity to visit with her and jumped when I should have stood back and watchfully waited 🙄

[saraha]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

Yes, and also don't be surprised if Mom and Sister reconcile and try to turn you into the enemy. 

They may want to blame someone, and if they aren't going to blame each other, who's left? 😞 

 

I didn’t even think of this 

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, saraha said:

Crap. I wish I had seen this earlier. I texted sis this morning, asked how she was. Then told her dh’s idea of meeting at a restaurant. We talked about that a bit. Then sent a text saying she was calling mom after work. I responded don’t you want to give it a couple of days. She responded “no reason everyone needs to be suffering. It’s just crappy what she did “ I told her I don’t understand what she means but didn’t get any response, but she’s also at work so could be busy. Then later I sent a text that said if you do talk to her, please don’t mention alternative plans. But now I’m kicking myself for feeling like we were a team when that had never been the case before last night, and any of the above scenarios were I end up the bad guy are entirely possible. I was afraid of missing the opportunity to visit with her and jumped when I should have stood back and watchfully waited 🙄

Remember, nothing is carved in stone. You can cancel with your sister if you need to.

I feel like you're blaming yourself for not doing everything perfectly here, and I think everyone here agrees that you are doing just fine! You had no way of reading your sister's mind, and it's understandable that you weren't thinking she would immediately try to patch things up with your mom (because quite honestly, if she is, I think she is out of her mind.) If she seems very concerned with not being on your mom's bad side, I think you should seriously consider steering clear of her for a while, too, because you will be walking on eggshells with her if you know she's probably running right back to your mom and telling her everything you said.

Be careful, and put yourself first!

[lauraw4321]

2 hours ago, maize said:

Could you and your sister have a nice Thanksgiving dinner at your house?

YES!!!

[lauraw4321]

17 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Remember, nothing is carved in stone. You can cancel with your sister if you need to.

I feel like you're blaming yourself for not doing everything perfectly here, and I think everyone here agrees that you are doing just fine! You had no way of reading your sister's mind, and it's understandable that you weren't thinking she would immediately try to patch things up with your mom (because quite honestly, if she is, I think she is out of her mind.) If she seems very concerned with not being on your mom's bad side, I think you should seriously consider steering clear of her for a while, too, because you will be walking on eggshells with her if you know she's probably running right back to your mom and telling her everything you said.

Be careful, and put yourself first!

Ok, catching up, actually this. I’m so sorry, but I’m glad you are starting to be able to see things clearly. 

[Indigo Blue]

I think homeschool mom makes some good points. Maybe it would be better to take a complete break from it all and just be with your own family. Maybe it will be good for you. It will give you a chance to see how things go between your sister and your mom without your being involved. Later, you might have a clearer lens to see through, and make decisions and choices accordingly. And, of course, your children would be better off with a peaceful day. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Indigo Blue

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

You should be proud of yelling at her. There's a time and place for yelling at someone. Well done!

Refuse to be the drama queens' audience. Don't attend anymore performances. Don't reply to them. Block them because there is no "fine" with them.  "Fine" was an illusion. Start looking for a therapist.

And to those who say it's "unchristian" to yell - remind them you could use a whip and overturn tables . . . . 

 

Do not be afraid to say goodbye to a phone tantrum, or to LEAVE if you are there in person.  No where does it require you to be an audience for a tantrum.

2 hours ago, Spryte said:

Oh yeh. Here, too. I was stunned by what came out, too. Years of being treated like a second class family member, the after-thought, wow, it adds up.

@sarahaYou are not alone!

Breathe deeply, and know you have support here. I hope you have an amazing day with your kids and family, possibly your sister. And eat anything you want, and she wants—if she comes to your place.

One of the things I really liked about Ender's Game (the book) - The description of a "third" . . . . (I was the third, and very much "the third wheel" in how I was treated.)

2 hours ago, saraha said:

My house is in the middle of some repair work that has dragged on for months and sis lives 6 hours away so she would have to stay the night. Dh suggested we find a restaurant between us somewhere and we each make the three hour drive to meet. She is looking for someplace. She said she was calling mom after work. She wants to patch it all up. I do not, yet anyway 

For whatever reason - she is unwilling to let go of "the dream".  Maybe she will in the future, but not now.  You will need to be careful with your dealings with her if she chooses to be beholden to a narc. No matter what - you can never tell her anything you don't want to get back to your mother.  never, ever.

She may be a narc, or she may simply be so used to trying to get the narcs attention and approbation she engages in drama.  It took me years to realize my sister was as much of a victim as me - and that my grandmother was constantly pitting us against each other (my grandmother was very jealous and resentful).  But my mom did it too to a lesser degree, but I'm not sure she realized she was doing it.  (grandmother appeared to do so actively and with forethought.)

I basically had to cut my sister off while grandmother and my mother were alive.  It was several years after that before we were able to have friendlier visits.  She was in denial the entire time - even though she'd complain about things they did.  (She also thought I had an easy life - and only she had things hard.)  Now she's in therapy.  I've sent her some specific Dr Ramani links, I'm hopeful she'll listen to them and maybe even start putting two and two together.

[HS Mom in NC]

34 minutes ago, saraha said:

Crap. I wish I had seen this earlier. I texted sis this morning, asked how she was. Then told her dh’s idea of meeting at a restaurant. We talked about that a bit. Then sent a text saying she was calling mom after work. I responded don’t you want to give it a couple of days. She responded “no reason everyone needs to be suffering. It’s just crappy what she did “ I told her I don’t understand what she means but didn’t get any response, but she’s also at work so could be busy. Then later I sent a text that said if you do talk to her, please don’t mention alternative plans. But now I’m kicking myself for feeling like we were a team when that had never been the case before last night, and any of the above scenarios were I end up the bad guy are entirely possible. I was afraid of missing the opportunity to visit with her and jumped when I should have stood back and watchfully waited 🙄

Sis isn't trustworthy.  Neither is Mommy Dearest.  Stop trusting them to reasonable, civil, well behaved, mature, discreet, or anything else.  Stop.

The best time to tell her you're just having Thanksgiving with your immediate family (spouse and kids) this year was the last time you communicated with Sis.  The next best time is right now. Strive for progress, not perfection. Sis and Mommy Dearest can do whatever they want including eating at the restaurant or at their own homes away from each other, or at Mommy Dearest's, or whatever.  Stop worrying about them.  Stop. Their Thanksgiving is none of your concern. They'll manage something on their own-they're adults. Stop trying to manage any of this.  Stop. Bow out.  Stay out. Don't communicate with Sis or Mommy Dearest anymore after sending a group text that reads something like:

"Won't be there at the restaurant.  Celebrating with my household this year." Stop.

Don't reply, explain, clarify, justify, argue, persuade, cajole, elaborate, for think about it anymore. Stop. Block them.  Don't answer their phone calls. Don't answer their texts.  Don't answer their emails. Don't discuss this with other family members outside your household.  They're just going to try to suck you back in.  This is what they do.  You already know that. You've always known that, you just haven't admitted it to yourself. Don't fall for it.  Don't play along. Just. stop. Stop the cycle of crazy.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving with your household this year at home or at a local restaurant or get turkey lunch meat, sandwich rolls, cook some frozen sweet potato fries, a store bought/cooked pie/cake, and have a picnic. Whatever suits you. You deserve a peaceful holiday. 

[LMD]

oh wow, well done @saraha 

Don't beat yourself up for how you handled this stuff - in 'dealing with narc' circles it's called the FOG - Fear, Obligation and Guilt. You were never going to handle this perfectly, because you were set up to fail from the beginning (probably your whole life) - your options were either 1. do exactly as mom wants all the time or 2. end up the fall guy who has personally attacked her. There is no middle ground with a narc, you either do their bidding or you are a threat.

Let your dh screen your calls, you are actually under no obligation to submit yourself to being gaslit by her. Space to finally be able to know your own mind is incredible (as I found out when my narc mum cut me off in a tantrum.)

[BlsdMama]

21 hours ago, saraha said:

I don’t want to play the joke but can’t figure out how to get out of this situation with no one being mad. I texted sis hoping she would say “ah, got it. I won’t be mad at him and he can play the joke so mom won’t be mad either” but she hasn’t responded to my texts for an unknown reason. Should I try texting her again? I texted yesterday and this morning.

You can't.  Why? Because involved parties are unreasonable.  The only thing you can do is ensure you're hit with the fire and not DS.  Make it plain you will not allow DS to be a part of it and let it be known that you won't be a part of it.  If you can't stop people from behaving badly, at least receive the comfort of the high road.  I'm so sorry.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

 
Don't reply, explain, clarify, justify, argue, persuade, cajole, elaborate, for think about it anymore. Stop. Block them.  Don't answer their phone calls. Don't answer their texts.  Don't answer their emails. Don't discuss this with other family members outside your household. 

They're just going to try to suck you back in.  This is what they do.  You already know that. You've always known that, you just haven't admitted it to yourself. Don't fall for it.  Don't play along. Just. stop.

 

Stop the cycle of crazy.
 

#1 - any "reason/excuse" you give, is a wedge a narcissist will use to cudgel you to come back to the fold.  no 'excuse/reason' is EVER good enough. 

    If you talk to them - "That doesn't work for me" - stop.  Do not give a 'reason'. ("I don't want to be exposed to your drama" - or even an I am soaking at the spa - is enough reason to say "that doesn't work for me".)

#2 - that's love bombing, narcs get very unhappy when they lose supply (or think they are about to lose it.)    They don't do it because they love you - they do it because they want to suck you back in to keep giving them their supply.  

I remember the day I was talking to a narc and thinking - you're being nice. what do you want?

#3 you don't play their game. Don't dance to their tune, don't be an audience.

eta: yes, that will anger the narc. (narc wants their supply)  not. your. problem.!  Not. your. responsibility.

Edited November 23, 2021 by gardenmom5

[prairiewindmomma]

Drive by posting…your mom is wanting to weaponize son as a flying monkey to put pressure to get her way.

Nope, no way, not a good idea.

If you aren’t aware of the dynamics of narcissistic relationships, please go study up. 

[GoodGrief3]

You are handling this all very well!

100%, do not make plans with your sister for Thanksgiving. Stay home, do something with husband and kids. Don't respond to phone calls and texts from them. Take a few days just for your family.

[saraha]

So she just called and left a voicemail. She just said this is all a big mistake. It’s all a big misunderstanding. Are you going to let this come between us? You can’t believe everything you hear. Long pause, big sigh, well, you are a grown person, I guess you are going to do what you are going do.

Not sure what this means. It’s not an apology, right? And is she now saying my sister lied by saying I can’t believe everything I hear? She’s the one who canceled thanksgiving. Ugh. I’m sorry to be working this out in real time with all of you but dh won’t be home til late and now the dread and second guessing and just wanting to smooth it over is here

ETA: she left a similar, less patient message on house phone. I was in the shower and luckily ds11 asked if he should answer it for some reason, so I was able to say no. I wonder what made him ask if he should answer instead of just doing it? The kids don’t know a thing yet

Edited November 24, 2021 by saraha