Help me make holiday decisions (Covid related)

[Moonhawk]

So, as I've shared on the board multiple times, my parents are anti-vax anti-mask pro-hoaxers. We tried a few times to have them see the kids during the summer (when numbers were low), the last one they broke every requirement I set with clear boundaries and so they have not seen the kids again. I said either until they were vaccinated or the kids were, there would be no more visits. My parents have turned this into "you're trying to make us stop going to daily Mass and hold the kids hostage from us" and no matter how many times I've told them Mass isn't the issue, this seems to be the story that they have set on to make me the bad guy. Whatever. We have moved towards having civil, even enjoyable, conversations so long as we ignore the elephant in the room.

Now, vaccinations for kids are available (not in my area yet but hopefully by the end of the week). By Christmas, 3/4 of my kids will be vaccinated. The youngest, though, will not be eligible until February. I know that while my parents completely disagree with my decision to vax the kids ("you're dooming them to a life of medical problems and infertility"), they expect this means we are on for Thanksgiving and Christmas. 

They will be extremely, extremely upset if they don't see the kids during holidays. We did see them last Thanksgiving/Christmas, before there were vaccinations available, but I also did a week quarantine leading up to the holiday and then 2 weeks after: this is not an option this year and frankly even if it was I don't think I'd be willing to give up my life for that long because they won't do basic mitigation measures.  They will not mask or stop going out to multiple stores a day leading up to the holidays. If anything, my parents are shopaholics, and despite their complaints about crowding and saying they don't go out to shop because of it, I know they up their shopping a ton. 

On the other hand: with all but 1 unvaccinated, and with her literally not having left the house for months, I feel like the 4yo's risk budget hasn't been used at all. I know she, out of all the kids, would love to see them for the holidays. The other kids would be vaccinated, and so the chances of Covid catching hold of the entire family, or of an older kid catching it from grandparents and giving it to 4yo, are greatly reduced. 

So, with 1 not vaccinated, what would you do in this situation? DH is against putting her at risk, but he is a highly anxious individual and is willing to usually trust my judgment on these things since he knows he tends to overreact about protecting kids and health issues in general. I lean towards letting holidays happen (not overnight trips like my parents want, but one-day events), but Idk if this is just fatigue on my end and if I am misjudging the risk scenario. I go to work every day (all vaccinated here, I wear a mask) but I also only go to the grocery store otherwise, so I feel like I'm being hypocritical for doing all this and then saying my parents are too risky. But OTOH, my parents go to multiple stores a day, often indoor restaurants, they refuse to take any mitigation measures, and so I feel are more risky than what I'm currently subjecting the family to. 

[MEmama]

Your parents have already made the decision.

Honestly, you’ve been upfront with them, have bent over backward for them, and the truth is they.don’t.care. They will happily place the blame on you without examining their own choices and actions. Spending time with them with them would be hard pass for me, personally. I wouldn’t waste another breath trying to get them to see the light. 
 

Sorry. It sucks all around. 

[SKL]

Is anyone in your household high risk for Covid?

I would go visit the folks with only your 4yo unvaccinated, unless there is an unusual risk you are managing.  I would avoid high risk situations with the 4 year old for a week or two prior to the visit, to reduce the risk of infecting your folks.

Edited November 9, 2021 by SKL

[regentrude]

It would be a no for me unless they are willing to take measures to make the gathering safer: reduce activities beforehand, wear masks when out in public, test before receiving visitors. Otherwise, visit outdoors only.
It's not just that you can infect them - they can infect you. Yes, vaccination protects against severe illness, but y'all can still get sick. If they don't care enough about your safety to take basic precautions, I would not go.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by regentrude

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

 I would avoid high risk situations with the 4 year old for a week or two prior to the visit, to reduce the risk of infecting your folks.

Visiting unvaccinated grandparents who are out and about all the time is a high risk situation for an unvaxxed child.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Nope.  They won’t do anything to protect an unvaccinated four year old?  Not going to happen.  

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Visiting unvaccinated grandparents who are out and about all the time is a high risk situation for an unvaxxed child.

Objectively the risk for a healthy 4.5yo of being exposed to someone who "might" have been exposed to Covid is extremely tiny.  Reasonably cautious parents take much bigger risks with their 4yos every day.

Personally I would read this as the mom of the 4yo disciplining the grandparent rather than managing risk, but that is just my opinion.

Edited November 9, 2021 by SKL

[skimomma]

Nope.  I would not.  We are having t avoid one set of relatives for the holidays for the same reason.  I hate it but aside from the real risk, I am also in danger of losing my temper over the whole hoax thing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The quarantine before seeing your parents  was for their benefit but doesn’t make sense if they are out and about without masks anyway. So I wouldn’t worry about the quarantine. 
 

Would your 4 year old be upset at wearing a mask for the non-eating part of the visit?  Would your parents be upset at someone coming in a mask?  That would be a safe compromise. Could your entire family mask?  That would be the safest compromise. 
 

That said, I do think while there is some risk of your parents exposing your 4 year old to Covid, the risk is fairly low. (I am basing my opinion on risk of symptomatic illness especially severe illness). I would do a one day visit for Thanksgiving and one for Christmas. 

[kbutton]

51 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I lean towards letting holidays happen (not overnight trips like my parents want, but one-day events), but Idk if this is just fatigue on my end and if I am misjudging the risk scenario.

I didn't read responses and will go back. I wish I had single day visit options for the unvaccinated family members we want to see. They have (at least up to a point) been more cautious than your folks too. I would be leery about eating with them, but I might be okay doing masked activities. I would be uneasy no matter what I chose since it's indoors. BUT, my DH has been working as a HCW almost this entire pandemic, and he's not come down with it that we know of. He wears an N95 around confirmed or suspected cases and a Happy Mask or KN95 around everyone else. That gives me pause about being too cautious. 

I think this can go either way reasonably, but for me to be personally comfortable, it would have to be masked, and I would stress about what to do about eating. 

[bibiche]

It would be a no for me unless they agreed to a strict quarantine ahead of time (and it sounds as if they would not). We also have a pandemic family rule that one no vote means a no vote for all, so by our rule, your husband’s no vote would have already decided the situation.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Objectively the risk for a healthy 4yo of being exposed to someone who "might" have been exposed to Covid is extremely tiny.  Reasonably cautious parents take much bigger risks with their 4yos every day.

Reasonably caring grandparents take much bigger steps to keep their grandchildren safe, especially when asked by their own kids to do so.

FWIW, before visiting my (fully vaccinated) mother, I did a PCR test a day prior to travel, wore an N95 mask for 18 hours, avoided close contact (hugs with mask only), until I tested negative five days after arrival. Because I care.
Refusing to take ANY sort of measure means the grandparent does not give a damn about their kids and grandkids. Nobody is forcing them to vaccinate against their will - but they could bloody well scale down activities and mask if they are sooo interested in having family visit.

Edited November 9, 2021 by regentrude

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Personally I would read this as the mom of the 4yo disciplining the grandparent rather than managing risk, but that is just my opinion.

This kind of talk perpetuates a victim mentality in those who want to continue to deny the pandemic is real or downplay the dangers. If this talk disappeared, it would be easier to navigate legitimate differences in comfort around mitigation strategies. 

The grandparents are perfectly free to meet them halfway with mitigation strategies. 

[SKL]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Reasonably caring grandparents take much bigger steps to keep their grandchildren safe, especially when asked by their own kids to do so.

FWIW, before visiting my (fully vaccinated) mother, I did a PCR test a day prior to travel, wore an N95 mask for 18 hours, avoid close contact (hugs with mask only), until I tested negative five days after arrival. Because I care.
Refusing to take ANY sort of measure means the grandparent does not give a damn about their kids and grandkids.

I would have been cautious before visiting your mother also.  The risks there are much different from the risks to a 4.5yo (assuming average risk factors for the age).

Differences of opinion about what is healthy are going to exist between the generations.  I personally would not keep the generations apart over this particular difference (the one described in the OP).  I would and do teach my kids about thinking for ourselves and that they will hear things at the grandparents' house that they don't agree with, but that is OK because it's part of living in human society.  In fact, it's an essential part of being human IMO.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Differences of opinion about what is healthy are going to exist between the generations.  

Of course. And a basic principle should be that grandparents respect the parents' wishes concerning their children.

My parents are free to have whatever different opinions they have. They are not free to inflict those on my children without my consent.
 

[catz]

Now that I know 4 under 25's who've been hospitalized that would be a hard no from me.  They have made their choice.  

[Syllieann]

Would they be willing to do a binax test the morning of the gathering?  If that is negative and you run a couple air purifiers I would feel pretty good about it.

My mil and stepfil are anti vax too.  I want to ask them to do a binax before they come for Thanksgiving but I'm afraid dh will be too embarrassed to ask, ugh.

I wouldn't worry about quarantining to protect them.  Their risk is so much higher everywhere else, and they refuse to take reasonable measures to protect themselves-their choice.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Syllieann

[SKL]

Well OK ... maybe I'm just in an older generation or something.  My kids may lose their grandparents before Covid goes away.  It is not worth it to me to insist on a zero level of risk before exposing my kids to the only grandparents they will ever have.  And to be selfish, I don't want to effectively lose my mom now over something that is objectively very low risk to my kids.

[bolt.]

I don't know the answer, but I thought this way of charting the risks might help you think through the matrix of factors...

 

Risk from vaccinated adults and kids to unvaccinated grandparents = fairly low risk of infection from asymptomatic vaccinated carrier.

Risk from unvaccinated socially active grandparents to vaccinated kids and adults = fairly low risk of breakthrough infection; AND, if infected, low risk of severe covid; BUT, risk of long-term covid impacts unknown.

Risk from unvaccinated socially active grandparents to unvaccinated 4yo = moderate for infection; BUT, if infected, fairly low for severe covid; risk of long-term covid impacts unknown.

Risk from unvaccinated limited-activity 4yo to unvaccinated grandparents = fairly low risk of infection from asymptomatic carrier; BUT, if infected, moderate to high risk of severe covid with the possibility of mortality; risk of long-term covid impacts unknown.

[catz]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well OK ... maybe I'm just in an older generation or something.  My kids may lose their grandparents before Covid goes away.  It is not worth it to me to insist on a zero level of risk before exposing my kids to the only grandparents they will ever have.  And to be selfish, I don't want to effectively lose my mom now over something that is objectively very low risk to my kids.

Well my latest nibling is on anti-fungals for a residual fungal infection for the next 6 months after covid.  And who knows what the long term outcome of that is going to be. So when vaccination is within sight for those littles, I don't blame people who chose to be on the cautious side for a bit yet.  There are other outcomes besides vents and death.  This one was only hospitalized over night after recovering from covid and then pneumonia.  She missed over a month of school.  So I'm not even sure if something like that tallies into "possible covid issues for kids".  

I would consider like an outdoor campfire gift exchange for an hour or something if that is reasonable for your area.  I think binax testing would be reasonable, or even if they'd do drive through testing and isolate 72 hours.  If they aren't willing to meet you halfway, I don't see why it should be on you to totally bend if you aren't comfortable yet.

That said, I totally think it is fair and fine for other people to make other choices.  Personally, I would just have limited patience for someone who isn't willing to do a 3 second test or isolate for a few days to make it happen.  

[freesia]

While I do understand the viewpoint of the pp's who say they wouldn't, I have to be honest and say that I would do a single day trip in those circumstances.  I absolutely see the risk to a 4.5 year old as vanishingly small, and I think the OP's parents need to manage their own risk, as sad as it is to see them making those choices.  We did go to a wedding this summer knowing that there would be people there who agree with your parents, OP.  We all work KN95 type masks.  Sure enough people got covid, including close friends whose children played with my, at the time, unvaccinated dd.  None of us got Covid.   So, I would go and have dd wear a high quality mask except when eating and sit her to eat somewhere away from grandparents, preferably in a well-ventilated area.  And, to be completely honest, if the local rates of covid were really really low, I probably wouldn't insist on the mask.  I know other people's risk assessment is different, but that is where I am right now. 

[freesia]

Oh, and I meant to ask if they would be willing to take a rapid test.

[Moonhawk]

Jut to inform on the "would they be willing to..." or "could you compromise by..." ideas, which are all great: when I say my parents will not do any mitigation measures, I mean NONE. They will not allow masks in their house (they may not scold the kids since they're following my directions, but they certainly would refuse to talk to me if I was wearing one indoors), they will not open doors for air circulation, and they will not use an air purifier, and they will not visit solely outside. They will not change any of these things to bend the knee to a political hoax, etc. Just to be clear, if we go we cannot expect any mitigations during the visit.

I can do vitamin protocols with the kids leading up to the visit, I can have them shower when they're home but I cannot enforce mitigation there. 

They might be willing to come to our place if it means seeing the kids, where I could have doors open and air purifiers. I don't think they'd go for it but maybe if they're desperate enough. But DH probably wouldn't want them in the house, even with the purifiers. So I'll have to think about this. 

I am trying to keep in mind they are 77 & 75 and the mental issues that seems indicate in their particular cases. They are both have comorbidities which are not good for Covid, and while I'm not concerned I'm a risk to them considering their daily choices, I am weighing the fact that kids may have limited time with them. On the other hand, I am wary of being bullied into doing something that pts risk on my kids because my parents of sound mind refuse to be adults. 

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

 

Jut to inform on the "would they be willing to..." or "could you compromise by..." ideas, which are all great: when I say my parents will not do any mitigation measures, I mean NONE. They will not allow masks in their house (they may not scold the kids since they're following my directions, but they certainly would refuse to talk to me if I was wearing one indoors), they will not open doors for air circulation, and they will not use an air purifier, and they will not visit solely outside. They will not change any of these things to bend the knee to a political hoax, etc. Just to be clear, if we go we cannot expect any mitigations during the visit.

 

This would be impossible for me to get past. The fact that they are perfectly willing to expose your unvaccinated four-year-old, but not at all willing to make even the smallest mitigation measures, even going as far as not allowing other people the freedom to wear a mask. I just couldn’t get past feeling that they were putting their political beliefs ahead of love and care for the grandchildren and the rest of the family. Mitigation measures don’t have any negative impacts on them, so to be unwilling to do them is just a shocking misordering of priorities to me.

I realize the absolute risk to an unvaccinated four your old is very low. I’m still not willing to offer mine up as a sacrifice to people who can’t be bothered to do anything to keep him safe, though. We have worked too long and too hard keep everyone in the family protected until they can be vaccinated. For my own kid, I’m not willing to just decide oh well, and expose him. We still don’t know enough about long enough effects, and the chances of breakthrough infections in the rest of us are quite high for a four-year-old infected in the house. We vaccinate kids for a lot of diseases that have a much lower risk profile than Covid does.

[rebcoola]

I think covid risk wise it's really  not that high.  But I just wouldn't want to spend the holidays with people who show such little care for my family.  All the stress of worrying about it would also sour it.  You said when they or the kids are vaccinated all the kids aren't vaccinated.  

[sbgrace]

 The most ideal situation is if they would do a rapid before the visit (and rapid the 4 yo). If so, I would do it all as normal. I am assuming they will not rapid test.

If that is the case AND if they will not allow or will treat the 4 yo unkindly for wearing a mask, it would be a no go for me unless the weather was good enough for an outdoor get together. It would not be worth the (probably small) risk to me to accomodate people who will make no effort to protect my family. 

FWIW, I have a similar situation with my husbands parents and his sibling family. We did only outdoor visits until we could be vaccinated. Once we were vaccinated I felt ok with normal visits. Now that we are over 6 months from vaccines and break throughs are clearly possible (and my teens can't get a booster), our holiday this year is changed. We will visit in good KN95 masks. This visit will be shorter, because we will be eating lunch before we arrive and a late dinner after we leave. 

For me, this isn't just because indoor visits with them could expose us to COVID, but also because I don't want to potentially bring COVID to any of them, and my teens are taking some COVID exposure risks. 

 

 

[kbutton]

34 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

They will not allow masks in their house (they may not scold the kids since they're following my directions, but they certainly would refuse to talk to me if I was wearing one indoors), they will not open doors for air circulation, and they will not use an air purifier, and they will not visit solely outside. They will not change any of these things to bend the knee to a political hoax, etc. Just to be clear, if we go we cannot expect any mitigations during the visit.

I change my answer to Heck no. Outdoor visits only. 

[regentrude]

35 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

 They will not allow masks in their house (they may not scold the kids since they're following my directions, but they certainly would refuse to talk to me if I was wearing one indoors), they will not open doors for air circulation, and they will not use an air purifier, and they will not visit solely outside. They will not change any of these things to bend the knee to a political hoax, etc.

Nope. HELL no. Not "allowing" masks clearly means they value their ideology higher than your comfort and well-being. Dictating that you cannot do anything to protect yourself is bullying.
With this many breakthrough infections, I would not be socializing unmasked with an unvaccinated person indoors. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

If we take all of the covid issues and put them in a box and just look at---do I want to spend the holidays with these people who don't respect me, my wishes, or my previous choices, how do you feel? You have a long posting history of issues with your parents and this is just the latest issue in which your wishes and desires are the fuel for their bonfire. Having a civil conversation is not a great relationship, iykwim. 

I'd opt to see them next at Easter, when everyone has been vaccinated and you can be outside.

[Moonhawk]

18 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If we take all of the covid issues and put them in a box and just look at---do I want to spend the holidays with these people who don't respect me, my wishes, or my previous choices, how do you feel? You have a long posting history of issues with your parents and this is just the latest issue in which your wishes and desires are the fuel for their bonfire. Having a civil conversation is not a great relationship, iykwim. 

I'd opt to see them next at Easter, when everyone has been vaccinated and you can be outside.

For myself, I don't want to go. 

I am trying to balance that the kids have seen them every Thanksgiving/Christmas before this, including multi-day sleepovers, and have traditions that they enjoy, and the 4yo is the perfect age for it. Even though we'd only do 1-day event, it seems just...  it's a big decision.

The 4yo asked me this morning when she could go to Nana's house and I think that was the straw that made me post. I need reality checks outside of myself, I want to make sure I'm not convincing myself "I'm right" if I decide no visit, when what I'm actually being is bullheaded. 

[prairiewindmomma]

What message does that send the 4yo though? It's ok to spend time with Nana, even though she treats people badly, because she showers us with presents? Why is 4 the perfect age to go? Is it presents? Is it that y'all will make cookies and have lovely conversation? What is it about the dynamic that you think makes it worth the tradeoff.........and then is there a way to create that same dynamic in your home?

How do your parents treat the 12 and 10 yos these days?

[Syllieann]

23 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

For myself, I don't want to go. 

I am trying to balance that the kids have seen them every Thanksgiving/Christmas before this, including multi-day sleepovers, and have traditions that they enjoy, and the 4yo is the perfect age for it. Even though we'd only do 1-day event, it seems just...  it's a big decision.

The 4yo asked me this morning when she could go to Nana's house and I think that was the straw that made me post. I need reality checks outside of myself, I want to make sure I'm not convincing myself "I'm right" if I decide no visit, when what I'm actually being is bullheaded. 

Don't go.  We are your reality check.  It's a physically unsafe environment, but it's even more unsafe emotionally.  The whole thing is super toxic, and I'm impressed at the forgiveness and grace you've already shown.  But being a good person doesn't mean you have to let people abuse you or play Russian Roulette with your kids to prove your love.

[WildflowerMom]

You don't want to go.  Dh doesn't want to go.   Your parents don't even really want to see everyone, because if they did, they'd have no problem wearing a mask or taking precautions.  It's their grandchildren, for goodness sakes.  If they can't wear a mask at the request of their children in order to see their grandkids, then that's on them, not y'all.  

[bolt.]

Since you are fairly sure they will refuse to come to your house for the visit... maybe I would invite them. This would change the narrative (because they have been invited and refused, therefore no one is keeping their grandkids from them) with only the slight chance of actually having the event occur. If they do come to your place for a visit, you can do all the things to minimize the risks.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Moonhawk said:

Jut to inform on the "would they be willing to..." or "could you compromise by..." ideas, which are all great: when I say my parents will not do any mitigation measures, I mean NONE. They will not allow masks in their house (they may not scold the kids since they're following my directions, but they certainly would refuse to talk to me if I was wearing one indoors), they will not open doors for air circulation, and they will not use an air purifier, and they will not visit solely outside. They will not change any of these things to bend the knee to a political hoax, etc. Just to be clear, if we go we cannot expect any mitigations during the visit.

I can do vitamin protocols with the kids leading up to the visit, I can have them shower when they're home but I cannot enforce mitigation there. 

They might be willing to come to our place if it means seeing the kids, where I could have doors open and air purifiers. I don't think they'd go for it but maybe if they're desperate enough. But DH probably wouldn't want them in the house, even with the purifiers. So I'll have to think about this. 

I am trying to keep in mind they are 77 & 75 and the mental issues that seems indicate in their particular cases. They are both have comorbidities which are not good for Covid, and while I'm not concerned I'm a risk to them considering their daily choices, I am weighing the fact that kids may have limited time with them. On the other hand, I am wary of being bullied into doing something that pts risk on my kids because my parents of sound mind refuse to be adults. 

I would put the ball in their court.  "We would love to come for Thanksgiving but we will be wearing masks except for eating.  If you are unable to respect that then please let us know and we will make other plans."  It's not asking them to do anything other than to respect your choices. 

[mlktwins]

2 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

Jut to inform on the "would they be willing to..." or "could you compromise by..." ideas, which are all great: when I say my parents will not do any mitigation measures, I mean NONE. They will not allow masks in their house (they may not scold the kids since they're following my directions, but they certainly would refuse to talk to me if I was wearing one indoors), they will not open doors for air circulation, and they will not use an air purifier, and they will not visit solely outside. They will not change any of these things to bend the knee to a political hoax, etc. Just to be clear, if we go we cannot expect any mitigations during the visit.

I can do vitamin protocols with the kids leading up to the visit, I can have them shower when they're home but I cannot enforce mitigation there. 

They might be willing to come to our place if it means seeing the kids, where I could have doors open and air purifiers. I don't think they'd go for it but maybe if they're desperate enough. But DH probably wouldn't want them in the house, even with the purifiers. So I'll have to think about this. 

I am trying to keep in mind they are 77 & 75 and the mental issues that seems indicate in their particular cases. They are both have comorbidities which are not good for Covid, and while I'm not concerned I'm a risk to them considering their daily choices, I am weighing the fact that kids may have limited time with them. On the other hand, I am wary of being bullied into doing something that pts risk on my kids because my parents of sound mind refuse to be adults. 

Nope for me.  They aren’t even willing to meet halfway.  Make Christmas special for your family at your house!

[DreamerGirl]

OP, my DD5 got vaccinated today. I cried, so I get how hard it is to keep her safe especially. But pretty much all we come in contact be it friends and family are vaccinated. Still I am terrified.

You have compromised with the vaccines. But your parents have to wear a mask, isolate for a while and test. They must show they are sincere. 

This is a hill I will die on.

I have friends in our circle who are postponing a party until our child can be fully vaccinated so she can participate. We did not ask that. They wanted her there. She is the only one unvaxxed until now because of her age.

I am a big believer in relationships especially grandparents. But those have to be reciprocated , met half way or they do not get it just because they are old or like to make memories.

The health of your daughter is more important and she has only you to advocate for her. If they truly love her, they will do what is uncomfortable for them to keep her safe. This is not some stranger they are doing it for. This is their grandchild. This is what love is to me, actions not words.

Stand your ground OP. You have compromised enough. Time for them to show they actually care instead of demanding.

I am sorry. this is hard ((hugs))

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

Reasonably caring grandparents take much bigger steps to keep their grandchildren safe, especially when asked by their own kids to do so.

FWIW, before visiting my (fully vaccinated) mother, I did a PCR test a day prior to travel, wore an N95 mask for 18 hours, avoided close contact (hugs with mask only), until I tested negative five days after arrival. Because I care.
Refusing to take ANY sort of measure means the grandparent does not give a damn about their kids and grandkids. Nobody is forcing them to vaccinate against their will - but they could bloody well scale down activities and mask if they are sooo interested in having family visit.

This this this this this! So OP, it would be a 100% hard NO to these grandparents. I am sorry they are this way.

[Catwoman]

Don’t go, and don’t feel guilty.

If your parents insist on putting their personal politics above their relationship with their own daughter, SIL, and grandchildren, I don’t think you should feel sorry for them if they end up spending their holidays alone. 

Have you and your dh gotten your booster shots yet? Because if you haven’t, a breakthrough case of Covid could be far more serious than many people seem to believe, particularly if you were originally vaccinated several months ago and your original protection is waning. 

I would hate to have to tell your 4yo that she can’t see her Nana, but in this case, I don’t see any way around it. Keep reminding yourself that this is not your fault, because it isn’t. You aren’t asking your parents to do anything extreme or unreasonable. They are the ones who are being reckless with their health; they do not have the right to be reckless with your family’s health as well. 

I’m so sorry you have to deal with this.  😞 

[Ausmumof3]

Initially I was leaning towards maybe, but reading your second post, no way.  It’s one thing for them to decided for themselves not to mask but to insist you don’t mask is just bullying basically.  Not worth engaging with.

Otherwise feeling your dilemma.  We open in two weeks and no word on vaccines for the youngest.  Govt wants to see how it goes in the US first.  I’m pretty sure I will be seen as paranoid locally and I’m not great at dealing with that.  I will have four weeks of work before holidays and the situation is not great in terms of Covid precautions (airless, crowded, kids from multiple schools on multiple days).  No masking has been going on lately even though it’s technically meant to be.

[ktgrok]

Can you buy some home tests now, to have on hand, and have parents test before being near the 4 yr old? If they test positive, well, they can't argue with your reasoning that they need to go home. And if they test negative are probably safe to have near her, as long as they are not symptomatic. 

[ktgrok]

A reminder that my sister, who is now neurologically compromised, perhaps forever, got a breakthrough infection from caring for her young child who had Covid. Even with vaccination when you have the level of contact that comes with caring for a sick kid the risk of infection is pretty high. A LOT of parents have caught breakthrough infections from kids. 

So that would play into my thoughts. That, and the grandparents unwillingness to even let YOU mask. Forget it. Obviously their political beliefs are more important to them than seeing the kids. They made their choice. 

[Faith-manor]

19 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

Jut to inform on the "would they be willing to..." or "could you compromise by..." ideas, which are all great: when I say my parents will not do any mitigation measures, I mean NONE. They will not allow masks in their house (they may not scold the kids since they're following my directions, but they certainly would refuse to talk to me if I was wearing one indoors), they will not open doors for air circulation, and they will not use an air purifier, and they will not visit solely outside. They will not change any of these things to bend the knee to a political hoax, etc. Just to be clear, if we go we cannot expect any mitigations during the visit.

I can do vitamin protocols with the kids leading up to the visit, I can have them shower when they're home but I cannot enforce mitigation there. 

They might be willing to come to our place if it means seeing the kids, where I could have doors open and air purifiers. I don't think they'd go for it but maybe if they're desperate enough. But DH probably wouldn't want them in the house, even with the purifiers. So I'll have to think about this. 

I am trying to keep in mind they are 77 & 75 and the mental issues that seems indicate in their particular cases. They are both have comorbidities which are not good for Covid, and while I'm not concerned I'm a risk to them considering their daily choices, I am weighing the fact that kids may have limited time with them. On the other hand, I am wary of being bullied into doing something that pts risk on my kids because my parents of sound mind refuse to be adults. 

A lot of harm can be done to children as they age when they realize who their toxic relatives are and what they did and caused. These don't sound like good people for your children to be around. Sad to say. But not all grandparents are magical people much less good. It is okay to limit contact. Given their beliefs which run entirely counter to what you are trying to teach your children about how to act in a pandemic/crisis, personal responsibility, etc., the best I would suggest offering is A phone call on speaker phone so they know they are being supervised, or a zoom call with all of you so you or your dh can shut it down if they start into an inappropriate topic like, "Your parents are so mean and won't let me see you."

[Lecka]

You never say you want to see them, you say they are going to be really mad if you don’t.  
 

Or, that’s how it comes across.

 

I would be fine with seeing them, to be honest, but I think there are a lot of unhealthy dynamics here, and I don’t think you have to give them their way.  

[Idalou]

18 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

For myself, I don't want to go. 

I am trying to balance that the kids have seen them every Thanksgiving/Christmas before this, including multi-day sleepovers, and have traditions that they enjoy, and the 4yo is the perfect age for it. Even though we'd only do 1-day event, it seems just...  it's a big decision.

The 4yo asked me this morning when she could go to Nana's house and I think that was the straw that made me post. I need reality checks outside of myself, I want to make sure I'm not convincing myself "I'm right" if I decide no visit, when what I'm actually being is bullheaded. 

So they have fun, loving traditions and do gardparenty things with their little loves, but refuse to do a single thing to help you? That is sick. Literally sick. They're not being grandparents, they care MORE about their "team" and LESS about those children. They are making it crystal clear what they value more than their family. There is no way on earth I would step foot in their home. Let them visit outdoors while your child is masked is the most I could do. 

Someone said they would not keep their child away from an elderly grandparent that may not survive much longer. Why can't we say that the grandparent knows it may be the last time they see the child, so its  worth it least wearing a mask? 

[kristin0713]

I didn't read every post. I would see your parents. I would ask them if they are willing to test before coming and also tell them if they have symptoms of illness, you will have to postpone getting together until everyone is healthy. I agree with everything @SKL said. 

[Idalou]

20 hours ago, SKL said:

Well OK ... maybe I'm just in an older generation or something.  My kids may lose their grandparents before Covid goes away.  It is not worth it to me to insist on a zero level of risk before exposing my kids to the only grandparents they will ever have.  And to be selfish, I don't want to effectively lose my mom now over something that is objectively very low risk to my kids.

But you are saying things the OP did not say. She is not asking for Zero Risk, she's asking for them to put a mask over their face, or at least act like a decent person if they choose to mask. You have chosen to respond with a falsehood, because she isnt insisting on that. Now if you are saying you'd never keep your kids away, that being a zero risk, then that's a different story. You must understand this.

You don't want to lose your mom over something that is deemed low risk, but what if a grandparent is selfish enough to perhaps pass away before seeing their grandchild because they will not put a mask over their face holes?

Edited November 10, 2021 by Idalou

[TechWife]

20 hours ago, SKL said:

 

Personally I would read this as the mom of the 4yo disciplining the grandparent rather than managing risk, but that is just my opinion.

I don’t think emotionally healthy people think of their relationships like this. The grandparents are making a choice. No one lives in a vacuum. To assume their choices wouldn’t  impact the way others relate to them is shortsighted. Families have gotten into huge arguments over who gets Aunt Sally’s China cabinet after she dies. This is much more serious. 

We do ourselves a disadvantage when we think in terms of serious illness or deathwhen it comes to covid. We would all be angry if someone refused to take simple precautions and exposed our children to chicken pox or the flu. Covid is not different in that respect. I’m not sure when it became culturally acceptable to engage in behavior that puts the health of other people at risk. 

[TechWife]

20 hours ago, SKL said:

 The risks there are much different from the risks to a 4.5yo (assuming average risk factors for the age).

Have you ever had a child dependent on a ventilator? I have. 
Have you ever taken care of a child who can’t breathe easily? I have. 
Have you ever wondered if your child was going to wake up? I have. 
Have you ever held your breath & paced a room while meds were titrated to allow an attempt at weaning from a ventilator? I have. 
Have you ever worried about whether or not your child was able to get enough nutrients? I have. 
Have you ever wondered when your child’s feet hit the floor if they would be able to bear his weight? I have. 
Would you do anything possible to prevent any of the above scenarios from occurring? I would.

Most parents enter “mama bear” and “papa bear” mode when it comes to protecting their kids from potential harm. We don’t think I’m terms of risk mitigation.  I’ve never known a parent to decide it’s okay for their child to ride in a car with a dangerous driver because the risk of accident or death is fairly low because most of the other drivers on the road are safe. Instead, the parent says a firm “no” to allowing their child to get into a car with a dangerous driver. No debate. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by TechWife

[Faith-manor]

35 minutes ago, Idalou said:

But you are saying things the OP did not say. She is not asking for Zero Risk, she's asking for them to put a mask over their face, or at least act like a decent person if they choose to mask. You have chosen to respond with a falsehood, because she isnt insisting on that. Now if you are saying you'd never keep your kids away, that being a zero risk, then that's a different story. You must understand this.

You don't want to lose your mom over something that is deemed low risk, but what if a grandparent is selfish enough to perhaps pass away before seeing their grandchild because they will not put a mask over their face holes?

This, and the Delta variant is NOT some wilting cold. It is more transmissible to and from children, and causing more complications in children than alpha or beta did. So this is a risk and especially to the unvaxed four year old. A bit like taking your baby to someone who insists despite the fact they may have RSV, they are going to kiss that little infant. No thanks. These people could test twice and meet outdoors while OP and family mask. They are willing to do nothing! These are not good people.

If the grandparents die without seeing the grandkids again, that is on them, not the OP. And while it might be upsetting for the kids to have that happen, it would be way worse to have something happen to their sibling. On top of which, it is actually very covid responsible for OP and family to not visit grandparents who refuse to vax, won't mask, won't quarantine for a visit, etc. If one of the kids transmitted covid to their grandma who has comorbidities plus age against them making death or severe disability more likely, how will that child feel? It isn't just a one way street here. Plus, the possibility is way worse of something happening to those grandparents because what we are seeing here is that the "covid is a hoax" people are refusing remdesivir, monoclonal antibodies, and already saying they will not take the new Merck drug because politics comes before being alive. This is wide spread. 

I would not go near them.