Psychology research? Kids with separated parents.

[Katy]

Years ago I heard that kids were best off if their parents stayed together, even if they are unhappy, unless there was abuse or addiction involved. Does anyone know where that came from and if it’s still considered true? 

No, not asking for me.  A friend is miserable, her husband cheated but confessed and apologized, and she isn’t sure what to do. Emotionally she’s out, but worried about her kids. There’s no abuse or addiction.

[Kassia]

I'm not basing this on any research only my own experience and those of others I know.  My parents had a terrible marriage and our house was always so tense because their relationship was strained.  It was awful way to grow up and I always tried to escape.  I found a mother's helper job when I was in middle school and was able to spend the summer away from home, always begged to stay at relative's homes, friends' homes, etc.  I moved out as soon as I could, too.  They did separate a few times and things were so much more peaceful when they did.  But that's just my own experience.  People I know who grew up in a similar situation had similar stories to mine.  

I'm very sorry for your friend.  What a horrible situation for her.  In my case, cheating wasn't the issue - that would take it to another level.  

DH's aunt cheated on his uncle.  She was very remorseful and wanted to keep the marriage together.  He didn't know what he wanted to do and put her through so much emotional abuse while figuring out how to handle it that the family ended up siding with her even though she's the one who cheated.  Eventually, they stayed together and have had a very long and happy marriage since then (this was over 30 years ago that she cheated).  Staying together was the right thing for them to do in the long run but it was a hard road to get there. 

Wishing your friend and the kids all the best.  ❤️

 

[Scarlett]

I would do almost anything to keep my kids FOO together.  Obviously that did not include staying with a serial cheating husband.  But divorce is difficult, blended families are difficult.  It just never ends……kids functions, weddings, births, etc…..

I love my husband, but I would have loved to have had the opportunity to keep my first marriage together for our son.  And Dh says the same thing about his first wife…

[Drama Llama]

. . . 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Farrar]

When I've read about this (and if you do a quick Google, you'll find some good summary articles), there are a ton of things that can be done to minimize the stress on kids and many bounce back really well with effects that aren't worse than other stresses that are common in life. Others don't and it does put kids at risk, but it's clearly about odds. It's really unpredictable.

In my own childhood, I'm glad my parents divorced. My father wasn't good to my mother. He used drugs and cheated on her and didn't really support her. Even though we experienced hardship after the divorce, it was good for both of them in the long run and I came out of it with plenty of resilience. My little brother was horribly harmed though. He was hurt by the divorce, missed his father, and suffered living in poverty after the divorce in ways that I did not. So even in the same household, there can be different outcomes.

My impression is that it's a balance. I don't assume that a risk of adverse effects on the children are worth the real time suffering of one or both the parents. You can't control everything - there are risks with everything and there are ways to mitigate these risks. If your friend is absolutely miserable, I don't think she's required to suffer just because she has kids. I think of it a bit like moving. A huge stress. Kids are often upset by switching schools midyear or losing friends. And it can cause a lot of bureaucratic issues. But, is it worth staying in a house with issues and leaks and major work needing to be done in order to avoid moving? Sometimes, yes, if you're moving to worse district, another bad situation, etc. Other times, no. And if the house is so bad that there's black mold everywhere, then the house itself may be making everyone sick.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Farrar

[fraidycat]

I think the biggest factor in how it affects the kids long term comes from how emotionally mature the parents can be when it comes to co-parenting. If there is vindictiveness and parental alienation, that puts the kids in the middle. If they can both just say "we're better off apart" and not discuss the other parent in a bad way, the kids will be better for living in two happy households vs. one miserable one.

 

[Wheres Toto]

My oldest daughter has said she's glad her dad and I separated/divorced.   Things were very tense when we were together and not good in many ways.   She had definitely benefited from seeing the healthier relationship dh and I have.

[ktgrok]

40 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I think that in many cases divorce leads to women and children living in poverty, which can expose kids to all sorts of things that put them at risk mental healthwise.

 

 

Definitely. As well as a worse school district, less time with adult family members, etc. 

11 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

I think the biggest factor in how it affects the kids long term comes from how emotionally mature the parents can be when it comes to co-parenting. If there is vindictiveness and parental alienation, that puts the kids in the middle. If they can both just say "we're better off apart" and not discuss the other parent in a bad way, the kids will be better for living in two happy households vs. one miserable one.

 

This! I tell ANYONE considering divorce to get couples counseling. Not because I'm saying they should stay together, but because even if they separate, you still have to coparent with that person for the rest of your child's life. So going to counseling to learn to do that in the most effective way with the least drama is only going to be good for the family - separated or otherwise. 

Plus, so often I see people leave a bad marriage and hop into another bad marriage/relationship. Counseling helps you avoid the same pitfalls the second time around. 

8 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

My oldest daughter has said she's glad her dad and I separated/divorced.   Things were very tense when we were together and not good in many ways.   She had definitely benefited from seeing the healthier relationship dh and I have.

This as well...it was important to me that my kids see a healthy adult relationship if possible. 

That said, divorce IS very stressful on kids. It means going between houses, sharing holidays, etc. it's hard. It really is. But sometimes it is necessary. I look at divorce not as the breaking of a contract but like the amputation of a limb. If the limb is causing more harm than good you have to amputate, but that doesn't mean it will be painless, or without lasting consequences. It makes so many things harder. But, no one deserves to be miserable, and kids don't need to grow up thinking that a miserable marriage is normal. 

[frogger]

It is really personal and so much depends on individual circumstances from how parents navigate custody, to putting their needs first, to not having it be a competition, to economic circumstances and whether this puts one parent in dire financial circumstances, and stress factors. There are also circumstances surrounding staying together with tension, stress etc as you said there wasn't addiction or abuse. Really, how things work out is so personal and can vary so much, that I think general data conglomerating that is really unlikely to apply very specifically.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by frogger
Fixing an auto correct word mix up

[Scarlett]

The main thing I would say is to not act rashly to divorce.  Just because she is miserable with him today doesn’t mean she will always be. I have known many people who survived infidelity and went on to have great marriages.  

[Momto6inIN]

I was told that in a psychology course in college almost 25 years ago. I remember it because my aunt and uncle were going through a divorce at the time and my cousin had told me basically the same thing - that she would rather her parents stay together even if they were unhappy.

But I don't remember the psychological study it came from, sorry. Just that the finding surprised the people doing the study. They expected to find that kids were better off in a home without the fighting and tension, and that's not what they found.

[Carrie12345]

“Better off”, “happy”, etc. are pretty subjective things.

My parents had 3 kids together. Their split had very different impacts on each of us at the time, and very different perspectives from each of us as adults. We’re different people, not an average of statistics.

Also, I’ve already been an adult much longer than I was a child. I’d hate to think of my parents being stuck together for their 30s/40s in the name of our childhoods, only to face starting over in their 50s. NTTAWWT if that’s just the way it goes, but it can be more daunting.
Parents are people, too. Of course we have responsibilities to our kids, but I don’t believe being miserable “for them” is healthy for anyone.

[Katy]

37 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

I was told that in a psychology course in college almost 25 years ago. I remember it because my aunt and uncle were going through a divorce at the time and my cousin had told me basically the same thing - that she would rather her parents stay together even if they were unhappy.

But I don't remember the psychological study it came from, sorry. Just that the finding surprised the people doing the study. They expected to find that kids were better off in a home without the fighting and tension, and that's not what they found.

Yeah, I think I learned that in a psych course too, but I couldn't tell you which one or any details.  Thanks.

[fraidycat]

I wonder if this study was done in a time when divorce was more rare and judged harshly, so kids felt "weird" and "embarassed" about having two households and if the same study, done today, where divorce is more common and accepted would come to the same conclusion.

It seems to me that the "othering" of the kids by being different from the majority of their peers might have an impact on their emotional & mental development and wellness. Whereas now, they are more likely to find an understanding ear amongst their friend groups because some of the peers have already BTDT. 

IOW, how old is this study and which social norms outside of the home also had an impact on the outcome. Times have changed.

 

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, fraidycat said:

I wonder if this study was done in a time when divorce was more rare and judged harshly, so kids felt "weird" and "embarassed" about having two households and if the same study, done today, where divorce is more common and accepted would come to the same conclusion.

It seems to me that the "othering" of the kids by being different from the majority of their peers might have an impact on their emotional & mental development and wellness. Whereas now, they are more likely to find an understanding ear amongst their friend groups because some of the peers have already BTDT. 

IOW, how old is this study and which social norms outside of the home also had an impact on the outcome. Times have changed.

 

I wonder if there was actually a study? Because it really seems like common sense, that a stable home with stable parents would be much better than having two homes with all the things that have been mentioned. There's just not a good answer when the adults can't make it work, is there?

[ktgrok]

I will say that my ex was a way better part time dad than a full time dad. He had mental illness and physical health issues and could sometimes scrounge up the energy to parent for a day or two in a row, but when he had to parent daily he just couldn't (or wouldn't). 

Now, sometimes his time with DS was still not good, but at least that not good was only now and then, and not daily. 

[Rosie_0801]

It all depends on how much the participants are interested in destruction. 
People can choose to be matter of fact, reasonable and civilised, or they can choose not to be.
The problem is that being civilised won't make the other party be civilised if they don't wish to be.

[City Mouse]

I don’t know. When I was growing up it was obvious to me and my siblings that my parents were not happy with each other. There was no cheating or obvious abuse, but their unhappiness rubbed off on us even if it was indirect. My parents are still married, but I haven’t heard my mom say anything nice about my dad in many years. 
I don’t think them staying together did their kids any favors. There was very little physical affection in our family, and there is very little emotional connections either. There were no big fall outs with my siblings we just drifted apart. I don’t even know how to contact either of my brothers other than Facebook messenger. 
I think a happier, healthier family would have been better for us all even if that meant our parents were not together.

[Ausmumof3]

Generally I’d say yes, but I do know someone who has a step dad who he has more respect for than either of his biological parents who loves him like his own kid into adulthood and beyond.  So it’s not impossible.  
 

I always wonder why we don’t set it up so the kids stay in one house and the parents can move in and out on a weekly basis. Gives the kids stability.  Seems unfair that we always expect them to be the ones dealing with the sucky stuff when we adults can’t work things out. 

[Resilient]

The question was phrased as separation, which doesn't always mean divorce...  I don't have any studies to mention, but I think it would be a difficult topic to study, because a lot would depend on whether the separation was intended to lead to divorce, vs intended to give some time and separation to figure things out without a pre-determined destination.  Two friends are in separations now, one with the intention that it ends in divorce and the other trying to figure out where this goes.  This is much on my mind.  It probably depends on the spouses having a common and truthful understanding in this arena and a lot of civility no matter what.  Regarding societal norms, it is hard to imagine that there has been time to do a longitudinal study of the impact, given the dramatic changes in the definition of marriage even in the last 10 years.  It will always come down to how an individual child receives it, as has been noted upthread.

[Shoeless]

https://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark-Study/dp/0786886161/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=divorce+landmark+study&qid=1633916223&sr=8-3

Maybe this book is what you are looking for. I read it a few years ago and don't remember the details of it.

My mother cheated on my dad, and they divorced by the time I was 2. She went on to marry the a$$hole she cheated with, and they are still together to this day. 

I have zero memories of my mom and dad together, and have never wished for them to reunite. I *do* wish that any of the adults in my life would have acknowledged how hard it was to be the kid in this situation. I wasn't ashamed that they were divorced. I was just... exhausted by the situation.  There are so, so many things kids end up losing or having to compromise on when their parents divorce, and they have no agency in the situation.

It's exhausting.  

 

 

 

[TCB]

9 hours ago, Katy said:

Years ago I heard that kids were best off if their parents stayed together, even if they are unhappy, unless there was abuse or addiction involved. Does anyone know where that came from and if it’s still considered true? 

No, not asking for me.  A friend is miserable, her husband cheated but confessed and apologized, and she isn’t sure what to do. Emotionally she’s out, but worried about her kids. There’s no abuse or addiction.

Unless the situation is unbearable for her, I think it is really important to think very carefully about how she will feel having to share custody of her children. How will she feel not having them every Christmas etc, dealing with important occasions like graduations and weddings, grandchildren etc, when her children may have to take turns between their parents. That doesn’t just end when they grow up. There are still Christmas and other holidays and important life events to negotiate. 
I don’t know the right answer for everyone, but I think it is very good to consider those things when deciding what to do.

[Bootsie]

From the situations and research that I have seen, I think it is really difficult to make any generalizations.  Different children react differently to different types of stress.  Some adults handle being unhappy and disastisfied with their relationship differently than others; so different children experience having an "unhappy parent" differently.  Also, it depends upon how happy the parents are AFTER a separation or divorce.  Just because someone is unhappy in a marriage does not mean the person will be happy separated; I remember reading once (and it was a long time ago so I can't quote the source) that a study was done several years after divorce and 1/3 of the people reported that they were happier, 1/3 of the people reported that they were about the same level of happy, and 1/3 of the people reported that they were less happy than when they were married.  

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, TCB said:

Unless the situation is unbearable for her, I think it is really important to think very carefully about how she will feel having to share custody of her children. How will she feel not having them every Christmas etc, dealing with important occasions like graduations and weddings, grandchildren etc, when her children may have to take turns between their parents. That doesn’t just end when they grow up. There are still Christmas and other holidays and important life events to negotiate. 
I don’t know the right answer for everyone, but I think it is very good to consider those things when deciding what to do.

The holiday issue gets more complicated when the kids marry and have to share holiday time with in laws. Instead of holidays potentially being split 50/50, now you see your kids every 3rd holiday (one for the ex, one for the inlaws, one for you).  If the inlaws are also divorced, your share of the pie goes down to 1/4. 

One has to think very carefully about this.  Getting divorced solves one set of problems but brings in another set.

[Tap]

I don't know about the study you are looking for.

My own parents split, dated other people, and got back together many times. As an adult, I only remember a few fights, as they were good about hiding it from me. What I do remember was the lack of affection that occurred later in thier marriage. It almost seemed like it was thier own version of an open marriage. There was 17 years between my parents ages. One thing that I remember being a huge problem....when my dad retired, my mom still had 17 years of working. They should have split for good at that time. It was always a mess after that. 

My own marriage was very affection-lacking and I have wondered if I settled because that is what I saw modeled. 

My own marriage failed permanently when we were about 23 years in, we divorced at year 27. Dh traveled for work and spent 3/4 weekend on his own pursuits and hanging with friends. His priorities were work, his friends, extended family, the rest of us.  At one point he thought I had an affair but he never told me. I absolutely did not, and it is a joke that I would have even had time for that since I was so busy raising the kids alone. He treated me like crap for a few years instead of asking me about his suspicions. Those years were harmful to my kids because none of us understood why he was acting the way he was. DD22 was trying to talk me into leaving him and getting my own place when she was in high school. I can't imagine that was good for her. She knew I was staying because I didn't want to give up his financial support. She kept telling me she didn't care about things that two incomes bought (clothes, sr year activities etc) but she had no idea how hard it would have got to make it on just my income. To me, he was barely home, and when he was, he treated me poorly, so it was easy to ignore his absence. He was treating her poorly as an extension of his attitude toward me. She went from being his favorite, to him skipping entire seasons/years of watching her sports. She and I are super close, and I didn't realize it at the time, but I think she felt a lot of the same pain and confusion I did. I thought he was just being an absent dad with her, but he was actually purposefully punishing her. When I figured that out, it broke my heart, that he could be that cold. 

He and I divorced last year. Having only one child at home to work through the split household, makes it easier financially but I think my older kids definitely paid a different price.

DD22 is now 3 years into her own marriage. She understand more now. One thing I really, truly admire about her.  She started reading books on marriage within the 1st 6 months. She and her husband both come from broken marriages. They are actively trying to change that pattern! 

DS27 had a hard time due to his religious beliefs about marriage (he is a pastor). He went to counseling, not about his suffering through an unhappy marriage as a teenager, but due to the impending legal divorce. He may understand the 'why' but he doesn't agree with it. He is at peace with it now.

DD14 had a harder time with the logistics of divorce because she is the only one who has to deal with a split household. She doesn't care about the marriage, partially due to her autism. She doesn't understand relationships, so she didn't see the hurt and pain. 

 

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

It's not just holidays and graduations.
When you separate, the other parent doesn't have to give kids their medications if they don't want to, they can feed the kids things they're allergic to, expose the kids to most forms of abuse and allow others to abuse them too, refuse therapies, etc, and there's nothing much you can do.

[SKL]

My thought is that when the qualifier is "unless there was abuse or addiction involved," then that might miss the complexity where the source of the "unhappiness" eventually leads to abusive behavior.  I know of some marriages that stayed together, but they were just hateful.  There was emotional abuse, verbal abuse, sometimes physical abuse at some point.  At that point, would the researchers move the data point from "unhappy spouse" to "abusive" and maybe distort the study results?

[Jean in Newcastle]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/581656

[Jean in Newcastle]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240051/

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, City Mouse said:

I don’t know. When I was growing up it was obvious to me and my siblings that my parents were not happy with each other. There was no cheating or obvious abuse, but their unhappiness rubbed off on us even if it was indirect. My parents are still married, but I haven’t heard my mom say anything nice about my dad in many years. 
I don’t think them staying together did their kids any favors. There was very little physical affection in our family, and there is very little emotional connections either. There were no big fall outs with my siblings we just drifted apart. I don’t even know how to contact either of my brothers other than Facebook messenger. 
I think a happier, healthier family would have been better for us all even if that meant our parents were not together.

Dh’s parents stayed together while clearly unhappy (and children grown.) It took us a lot of time and money with a professional to talk about what a healthy relationship looks like! I came with my own baggage, of course, but he had zero reference for working out problems, and didn’t even see it as a relationship need.  Ignoring = doesn’t exist. 
Meanwhile, for me, not addressing anything and everything immediately = doom.

[Eos]

9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I always wonder why we don’t set it up so the kids stay in one house and the parents can move in and out on a weekly basis. Gives the kids stability.

It's called "bird-nesting".  Here is an Aussie publication with an article: https://beanstalkmums.com.au/no-nonsense-tips-for-bird-nesting-after-divorce/

[Excelsior! Academy]

I would quote/like Rosie’s post if I could.  Those are the main reasons I would stay together.  Do and I both come from divorced parents. We are in the stay together at almost any cost camp. It is not worth it to the kids to separate outside of extreme abuse.  The type where there is no question that custody will be a no go to the abusive parent. Remember that when one divorces, one has no control over what one’s prior spouse might say or do to the kids.  They most definitely could paint you in a bad light, raise them much differently religiously or not at all, allow media that you don’t approve of, or even just expose them to friends or situations that are not safe or ideal.

[Faith-manor]

I don't know if there was an actual, peer reviewed study of it, nor if they looked at other factors and outcomes. It seems like this could have some serious bias attached  if not done very carefully.

But, I can say that anecdotally, my two sibs and I do wish our mother had divorced our father and finished raising us. We have some major scars from the dysfunction of that marriage. My brother went on to have two, epically dysfunctional marriages that mirrored many of the same issues my parents had, yet he thought this was all normal and acceptable. His own kids are so scarred from the mess of those marriages that of the five adult kids, only one has communication and relationship with him, and she is an emotional disaster from continuing to try with her parents. My sister, fourteen years younger than I, had it the worst. She experienced such a horrible childhood, and her early twenties when she was trying to overcome the emotional and mental fall out of that was no picnic. She is in a great place now due to her hard work and therapy. But yikes! I made a conscientious decision to distance myself from my parents at 14, and managed to carve out two years of college classes plus all my performing and the many, many hours in the practice room so I was basically only at home to sleep, and then left for four year university and the dorms at 16. That space helped me work through a lot of stuff. I stayed on campus for breaks or went to my grandparents in order to minimize contact. That break was huge, and very helpful. It allowed me to eventually cultivate a somewhat okay relationship with my parents, something my sister and brother did no manage, though once our father died, they both then were able to draw close to mom.

Mom stayed because "God hates divorce". That was it. My sister grew up thinking, " God must really, deeply hate kids in order to hate divorce enough to subject them to this". The worst thing is, my parents had a very stable marriage before they found religion, and my brother and I do have wonderful, fond memories of those years, serious family contentment and joyful times. But oy! When they got religion (I was about 10 and my brother was 14), it just got so ugly. My sister never had any other experience with their pre-fundamentalist marriage, and had a childhood filled with crap, filled with sorrow. We can all look back and realize her anxiety and clinical depression went back as far as four or five years of age.

My mother staying with my father allowed him to be a full time negative, emotionally abusive jerk instead of part time had they separated. 

That said, when a marriage goes south and there are kids involved, it is all very, very complicated. I don't know how any psychologist/psychiatrist could make predictions of outcomes other than for egregious things like physical and sexual abuse for which I think they have a lot more data.

 

[Carrie12345]

52 minutes ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

I would quote/like Rosie’s post if I could.  Those are the main reasons I would stay together.  Do and I both come from divorced parents. We are in the stay together at almost any cost camp. It is not worth it to the kids to separate outside of extreme abuse.  The type where there is no question that custody will be a no go to the abusive parent. Remember that when one divorces, one has no control over what one’s prior spouse might say or do to the kids.  They most definitely could paint you in a bad light, raise them much differently religiously or not at all, allow media that you don’t approve of, or even just expose them to friends or situations that are not safe or ideal.

I think it’s also important to recognize that a legal marriage doesn’t prevent a parent from doing these things. It may keep the other parent more aware of goings on, but there’s no law requiring a husband (for the common example) to follow a wife’s parenting rules.  
 

[Scarlett]

27 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I think it’s also important to recognize that a legal marriage doesn’t prevent a parent from doing these things. It may keep the other parent more aware of goings on, but there’s no law requiring a husband (for the common example) to follow a wife’s parenting rules.  
 

All of these things are factors in making the best of two bad choices.   Every situation is different.  

It does seem to me most people on this thread have more positive than negative to say about divorcing.  That might be....confirmation bias?  I am not the best at identifying these things.

I am a child of divorce.  I did ok in life except for choosing my first husband poorly.  I really really really wanted to stay married. I am still sad that it did not work for my ds's sake. XH really gave me no option.   So when I hear of a woman whose husband confessed and is remorseful and wants to save his marriage......I just know there is hope there.  And the way she is feeling now is most likely a bi-product of the way he was treating her while he was in an affair.  If he has 'woken up' so to speak.....then things could really change. On the other hand, adultery is a bitter pill and no one should be forced to forgive it if they don't want to. 

Divorce is hard though.  In all the ways.  

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

I would quote/like Rosie’s post if I could.  Those are the main reasons I would stay together.  Do and I both come from divorced parents. We are in the stay together at almost any cost camp. It is not worth it to the kids to separate outside of extreme abuse.  The type where there is no question that custody will be a no go to the abusive parent. Remember that when one divorces, one has no control over what one’s prior spouse might say or do to the kids.  They most definitely could paint you in a bad light, raise them much differently religiously or not at all, allow media that you don’t approve of, or even just expose them to friends or situations that are not safe or ideal.

I don't think you can make that blanket statement. You just can't. You have no idea what people are going through in the privacy of their homes. There was no "extreme abuse" in my marriage, but it was ABSOLUTELY best for my son to end that relationship. He was being emotionally neglected, and was going to grow up thinking that is how families operate, that is how relationships work. He was SO much happier and healthier after he was out of that situation. And my now husband, his stepfather, has been a HUGE blessing in his life. My son would be the first to say that. He also now has siblings, which he loves, and wouldn't have had if I'd stayed in that marriage, as well as much greater financial stability. 

Recently divorce was a topic at church. The paster was clear that it is not to be done lightly, or for less than serious reasons, and that God hates the idea. But, God doesn't want people in unhealthy circumstances either. I thought that was a good way to put it. 

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/581656

 

8 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240051/

Bumping because I am not sure people saw these.  Interesting reading.

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

I would quote/like Rosie’s post if I could.  Those are the main reasons I would stay together.  Do and I both come from divorced parents. We are in the stay together at almost any cost camp. It is not worth it to the kids to separate outside of extreme abuse.  

And you are wrong. You absolutely cannot make that statement as has been attested here by people like myself who were very wronged by our parents staying together, who have witnessed and experienced a life time of hurt. And I wasn't physically or sexually abused either. You have no idea what it may be worth to kids, and as marriage and family is complicated, you cannot make this claim because in some cases it will absolutely be worth it, and in others, not.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Faith-manor

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

I would quote/like Rosie’s post if I could.  Those are the main reasons I would stay together.  Do and I both come from divorced parents. We are in the stay together at almost any cost camp. It is not worth it to the kids to separate outside of extreme abuse.  The type where there is no question that custody will be a no go to the abusive parent. Remember that when one divorces, one has no control over what one’s prior spouse might say or do to the kids.  They most definitely could paint you in a bad light, raise them much differently religiously or not at all, allow media that you don’t approve of, or even just expose them to friends or situations that are not safe or ideal.

I absolutely agree with you.  I know everyone has their story and as I mentioned earlier seems like a lot on here prefer divorcing to staying together.  I would imagine if kids had the choice they would choose their parents to stay together and get healthy.  I think that is the missing third option.

[Junie]

My parents divorced when I was a preschooler and my mom remarried the same year.  Because of this, our family didn't experience the financial pitfalls that many divorced women face, but emotionally it was not ideal.  Truthfully, I think the first marriage would have been healthier than the second one turned out to be, but it's really impossible to say.

[Carrie12345]

56 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

does seem to me most people on this thread have more positive than negative to say about divorcing.  That might be....confirmation bias?  I am not the best at identifying these things.

I don’t know that anyone sees divorce as a positive thing in and of itself. The private details of such decisions vary widely. I’d like to think it typically comes down to which option is better than the other, when the goal (a healthy relationship) is no longer an option.  
I haven’t personally met anyone who has left a healthy relationship.

[Katy]

I have to question what is meant by “extreme abuse.”  I’ve brought home foster children from the ICU that we only got called for after weeks in hospital, when it finally appeared they would probably live. 

That’s my definition of “extreme abuse.”  Surely the people who agree with that use a far looser definition than toeing the line on murder?

ETA:  we also had a 3 year old with a medical file almost 3” thick. The more I think about this the more ridiculous a standard “extreme abuse” is.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Katy

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t know that anyone sees divorce as a positive thing in and of itself. The private details of such decisions vary widely. I’d like to think it typically comes down to which option is better than the other, when the goal (a healthy relationship) is no longer an option.  
I haven’t personally met anyone who has left a healthy relationship.

Right. In order to have a healthy relationship, it takes two. In my experience, it is exceptionally rare for both sides to be willing to change, to put in the work. It then becomes and issue of "which of the two bad options is the least bad".

I don't think anyone here is claiming divorce is a positive except when things really are that terrible. Many of us are trying to say we experienced the terrible, the actual circumstances in which a divorce would have been a net positive.

In many cases, it is a gamble on which is the least worse. Nobody knows until they come out the other side. It would be helpful though if people listened to the adult kids who are on the other side of it now which might help in the future especially for the psychological community as it seeks to counsel married persons needing advice.

 

 

[Excelsior! Academy]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I think it’s also important to recognize that a legal marriage doesn’t prevent a parent from doing these things. It may keep the other parent more aware of goings on, but there’s no law requiring a husband (for the common example) to follow a wife’s parenting rules.  
 

True.   

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I don't think you can make that blanket statement. You just can't. You have no idea what people are going through in the privacy of their homes. There was no "extreme abuse" in my marriage, but it was ABSOLUTELY best for my son to end that relationship. He was being emotionally neglected, and was going to grow up thinking that is how families operate, that is how relationships work. He was SO much happier and healthier after he was out of that situation. And my now husband, his stepfather, has been a HUGE blessing in his life. My son would be the first to say that. He also now has siblings, which he loves, and wouldn't have had if I'd stayed in that marriage, as well as much greater financial stability. 

Recently divorce was a topic at church. The paster was clear that it is not to be done lightly, or for less than serious reasons, and that God hates the idea. But, God doesn't want people in unhealthy circumstances either. I thought that was a good way to put it. 

Even functioning relationships can be messy, so I do not pretend to know everyone else's situation.  I am glad that you found a solution that worked well for you and your family.

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

And you are wrong. You absolutely cannot make that statement as has been attested here by people like myself who were very wronged by our parents staying together, who have witnessed and experienced a life time of hurt. And I wasn't physically or sexually abused either. You have no idea what it may be worth to kids, and as marriage and family is complicated, you cannot make this claim because in some cases it will absolutely be worth it, and in others, not.

Since my only life example is divorced parents, I cannot clearly see through the lens of parents that stayed together.  While I value your perspective and it doesn't change my opinion, it does help me see your very valid point.

[HS Mom in NC]

My parents separated when I was a week old and my bio brother was 11 months old due to Dad's ongoing adultery and alcoholism.  My father remarried when I was 4, divorced again when I was 7, remarried again when I was 12, and divorced when I was 16.  My mother remarried when I was 3 and often said she would be divorced again if my step-dad didn't work the late shift. They're not people would function well in marriage, so the divorce was the least of the evils because they're just high conflict people.  

I got married to my husband 28 years ago.  We were on the same page with religious/philosophical views, childrearing, lifestyle, and finances, the things most likely to factor into marital harmony or conflict. 12 years into the marriage he left the faith when the kids were 1, 8, and 10.  The practical result was no longer being in agreement on those issues.  We did see a marriage counselor several years after that who told us there was no point in staying married or coming to counseling, there was no hope in this type of situation.

The first several years were incredibly difficult and full of tension as we had to grieve the loss of that marriage and renegotiate a new one. (We didn't divorce or separate, but for all practical purposes, it was a new marriage neither of us would've chosen if we hadn't already been married with children.) Things like this get better slowly over time. When the oldest was in her early teens she told us out loud she wished we would just get divorced. At about 10 years into the "new marriage" things improved to a consistently comfortable level most of the time. It's now a very good marriage. It's never going to be the same as it was in those first 12 years, but we've thriving.  At 15 years after that new marriage started oldest (now 25) has told us she's soooooooo glad we didn't get divorced.

I wouldn't have taken that route if there were abuse going on.  One time adultery with evidence he might be repentant, I don't know. I know some couples recover from that, but it would be hard to get over.

My point is, if they're going to stay together, they have to be very realistic about what an uphill climb it will be, and how long it could take.  Are they willing to play the long game for real?  It's truly a marathon rather than a sprint.  It's going to be incredibly lonely and emotionally demanding for a long time, and it will seem even longer. Are they disciplined enough to keep the focus on the kids and not themselves and their pain? How are they at delayed gratification as it is? Is the husband prepared to do what it takes to rebuild trust without whining about the level of scrutiny and accountability that he'll have to submit to? Are they prepared for the mental and emotional exhaustion of articulating issues, negotiations, and continual conscientious relationship maintenance that I imagine will be required?  I'm sure there are other things to consider too.
 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Homeschool Mom in AZ
added backstory

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I absolutely agree with you.  I know everyone has their story and as I mentioned earlier seems like a lot on here prefer divorcing to staying together.  I would imagine if kids had the choice they would choose their parents to stay together and get healthy.  I think that is the missing third option.

I think that is EVERYONE'S choice, lol. Trust me, if that had been an option, I'd have taken it! But I couldn't force my spouse to get healthy. I tried...I scheduled the therapy appointments, the psychiatry appointments, the cardiologist appointments, etc. I made all sorts of compromises, including dropping out of school to work so he could go to school, even borrowing money from my boss to cover tuition for him, only to find out later he wasn't actually GOING to class, just heading to the library to nap. I gave up on the idea of having more than one child, because he didn't want more . But at the end of the day, he flat out did not want to change, and he was not a healthy person to have around my child full time. No kid should grow up watching their loved one self destruct on a daily basis, not should they be told "go away" so Daddy can sleep all day and watch TV all night while mom is gone at work 12-14 hours a day. That's not healthy, and I couldn't force it to be healthy. And that's not uncommon. 

[GracieJane]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My parents separated when I was a week old and my bio brother was 11 months old due to Dad's ongoing adultery and alcoholism.  My father remarried when I was 4, divorced again when I was 7, remarried again when I was 12, and divorced when I was 16.  My mother remarried when I was 3 and often said she would be divorced again if my step-dad didn't work the late shift. They're not people would function well in marriage, so the divorce was the least of the evils because they're just high conflict people.  

I got married to my husband 28 years ago.  We were on the same page with religious/philosophical views, childrearing, lifestyle, and finances, the things most likely to factor into marital harmony or conflict. 12 years into the marriage he left the faith when the kids were 1, 8, and 10.  The practical result was no longer being in agreement on those issues.  We did see a marriage counselor several years after that who told us there was no point in staying married or coming to counseling, there was no hope in this type of situation.

The first several years were incredibly difficult and full of tension as we had to grieve the loss of that marriage and renegotiate a new one. (We didn't divorce or separate, but for all practical purposes, it was a new marriage neither of us would've chosen if we hadn't already been married with children.) Things like this get better slowly over time. When the oldest was in her early teens she told us out loud she wished we would just get divorced. At about 10 years into the "new marriage" things improved to a consistently comfortable level most of the time. It's now a very good marriage. It's never going to be the same as it was in those first 12 years, but we've thriving.  At 15 years after that new marriage started oldest (now 25) has told us she's soooooooo glad we didn't get divorced.

I wouldn't have taken that route if there were abuse going on.  One time adultery with evidence he might be repentant, I don't know. I know some couples recover from that, but it would be hard to get over.

My point is, if they're going to stay together, they have to be very realistic about what an uphill climb it will be, and how long it could take.  Are they willing to play the long game for real?  It's truly a marathon rather than a sprint.  It's going to be incredibly lonely and emotionally demanding for a long time, and it will seem even longer. Are they disciplined enough to keep the focus on the kids and not themselves and their pain? How are they at delayed gratification as it is? Is the husband prepared to do what it takes to rebuild trust without whining about the level of scrutiny and accountability that he'll have to submit to? Are they prepared for the mental and emotional exhaustion of articulating issues, negotiations, and continual conscientious relationship maintenance that I imagine will be required?  I'm sure there are other things to consider too.
 

This is a really tough story. What made him leave your faith? 

[Pam in CT]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

I have to question what is meant by “extreme abuse.”  I’ve brought home foster children from the ICU that we only got called for after weeks in hospital, when it finally appeared they would probably live. 

That’s my definition of “extreme abuse.”  Surely the people who agree with that use a far looser definition than toeing the line on murder?

ETA:  we also had a 3 year old with a medical file almost 3” thick. The more I think about this the more ridiculous a standard “extreme abuse” is.

I have nothing to add to what's already been said on the OP topic, but...

thank you for serving as a lifeline to these kids. 

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Junie said:

My parents divorced when I was a preschooler and my mom remarried the same year.  Because of this, our family didn't experience the financial pitfalls that many divorced women face, but emotionally it was not ideal.  Truthfully, I think the first marriage would have been healthier than the second one turned out to be, but it's really impossible to say.

My sister is on her 4th marriage.  She is happy with him.  But she really really regrets not trying harder with her oldest kids dad.

[Excelsior! Academy]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

I have to question what is meant by “extreme abuse.”  I’ve brought home foster children from the ICU that we only got called for after weeks in hospital, when it finally appeared they would probably live. 

That’s my definition of “extreme abuse.”  Surely the people who agree with that use a far looser definition than toeing the line on murder?

ETA:  we also had a 3 year old with a medical file almost 3” thick. The more I think about this the more ridiculous a standard “extreme abuse” is.

Extreme abuse is exactly what you describe, but could be physical, s@xual, mental, etc.  I purposely left the definition ambiguous, because trying to define every abusive scenario is too much of a challenge.  Josh Duggar has been extremely abusive to Anna.  Dh and I adopted and are raising kids with fas and rad, and I absolutely agree that they have experienced extreme abuse.