Do you consider algebra a requirement for a high school education?

[PeachyDoodle]

I'm following a couple of discussions elsewhere, and I was surprised at how many people think that algebra (and even pre-algebra) isn't necessary for a student who doesn't want to go to college. It never occurred to me that some people would think a neurotypical student shouldn't complete algebra as part of a basic high school curriculum. Obviously there are disabilities that exist that might make learning algebra impossible, but for an average student -- or even one that struggles some in math -- I can't imagine just chucking it because "you'll never use it anyway." I find that line of thinking kind of concerning, actually.

But I have one pretty advanced kiddo and one who is on target but not anywhere close to being ready for algebra yet, so maybe there's something I'm missing. Anybody want to weigh in?

[Rosie_0801]

I would understand if people were saying that about calculus. 
 

[Crimson Wife]

Passing Algebra 1 or a 2 year Algebra 1A & 1B should be a requirement for a general ed diploma IMHO.

Now I *DO* disagree with the push to require Algebra 2 for graduation.

[mom2scouts]

You may be seeing some of the same discussions I've been seeing. I can't believe how many people don't think they ever use algebra in their life and don't think their kids need algebra because they're going into the trades. I just started algrebra with my 12 year old and I frequently point out to her times we use algebra to solve daily problems.

[PeachyDoodle]

28 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I would understand if people were saying that about calculus. 
 

Right. Exactly. I find the ever-increasing push to do more-more-more troubling too. But algebra? That seems pretty basic to me. I don't think backing off to the point that kids don't at least try to get through it is the right call either.

 

4 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

You may be seeing some of the same discussions I've been seeing. I can't believe how many people don't think they ever use algebra in their life and don't think their kids need algebra because they're going into the trades. I just started algrebra with my 12 year old and I frequently point out to her times we use algebra to solve daily problems.

Yeah, that really concerned me. Like, really? You don't think you use algebraic thinking in everyday life? That's an argument I expect from a 12yo. I would hope for more from an adult who has accepted responsibility for educating children.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Algebra is absolutely necessary for college.  Our community college placement tests will not put you in a college level class without passing the algebra portion.  (That said, you can certainly take algebra in community college (even algebra 1) but it is costly and does not count towards a college degree. 

[Sherry in OH]

Yes, but then I think students should be required to take mathematics all four years of high school, pre-9th grade courses should be used for placement not credit.   Less able students could take pre-algebra, algebra 1 over two years, and then a year of consumer math.  The split algebra program could focus on real life applications of basic algebraic concepts.    More able students who choose to stop the traditional sequence with geometry should be offered statistics or other tangential math courses for their remaining high school years.

[73349]

Yes. I would exempt a student whose disabilities made it a no-go (and substitute some microeconomics if that would be better) rather than withholding the diploma, but I don't see any reason a typical student wouldn't take algebra (which is really useful in chemistry and physics, as well) and geometry.

[Skippy]

Yes, even if college is not a goal, I think algebra should be required for graduation for any student without a disability. 

[wendyroo]

I think algebra 1 should definitely be required, but for less able math students I would actually prefer to see a watered down algebra 1 spread over two years including lots of real-world applications, basic geometry and arithmetic review.

Obviously I would love all students to graduate with a strong understanding of algebra, but I think that is somewhat unrealistic when you have a lot of students entering high school without a strong understanding of arithmetic.  When the rubber meets the road, I do think calculating percentages will be more useful for most people than the quadratic formula.

Wendy

[MerryAtHope]

 Yes, absolutely. I see no reason why neurotypical kids couldn’t complete algebra one, and I think it’s very applicable to daily life situations. 

[Jackie]

4 hours ago, whitehawk said:

Yes. I would exempt a student whose disabilities made it a no-go (and substitute some microeconomics if that would be better) rather than withholding the diploma, but I don't see any reason a typical student wouldn't take algebra (which is really useful in chemistry and physics, as well) and geometry.

 

This is my answer as well.

[teachermom2834]

In our state you need 4 years of high school math and the lowest acceptable is algebra. What do these students do in high school if they never get to algebra?

[J-rap]

Yes, absolutely.  I believe that a very solid understanding of Algebra, actually, would be sufficient for a lot of students not going into careers that require math.   

[kiana]

12 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Algebra is absolutely necessary for college.  Our community college placement tests will not put you in a college level class without passing the algebra portion.  (That said, you can certainly take algebra in community college (even algebra 1) but it is costly and does not count towards a college degree. 

 

I want to comment on this specifically:

The college world is leaning more and more towards "corequisite remediation". In many states, colleges are being pushed or even legally forced to streamline or eliminate developmental mathematics in favor of placing students into college-level classes with the developmental material needed taught using "just-in-time remediation". This has a reasonable chance of working for people who took four years of HS math and just forgot it, but someone who has never learned it in the first place has virtually zero chance of success in this system.

I have pretty strong personal opinions about this, but none of that is going to change the way the climate in *general* is moving. I'm in a "streamlined" state right now, and I had several students last semester/this semester saying "Why does it have to be so FAST? Why can't we take this over two semesters?" All I could tell them is to write their state legislators and tell them how pissed off they were that there can't even be an OPTIONAL slow track. p.s. I have absolutely no problem with mandating that there has to be a "fast track" and I don't even have a problem with making it the default. I just have a major problem with not providing even a single section of a slower track. 

At my last job, we had one, three-credit developmental course before students got into college algebra. It got into algebra in the first week and ended with quadratic equations. I had several bright, articulate, intelligent, and quite lovely students who were all from the same unschooling group and had literally never seen a variable before. They did fine in all of their humanities courses and struggled in their science classes, and many of them ended up dropping out before graduation because the math requirement was insurmountable. 

One of them was in my developmental math class two semesters in a row and then finally scraped a C in the third semester with someone else, only to then not pass college algebra on the first attempt. He was unusually persistent ... because he wanted to go to medical school. I feel so bad for him, because F, D, C in developmental math and then F, D, C in college algebra is never going to get him there 😞 

[PeachyDoodle]

8 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

In our state you need 4 years of high school math and the lowest acceptable is algebra. What do these students do in high school if they never get to algebra?

Four years is our plan as well, even though dd13 will complete Algebra 2 before she starts high school. But she is planning a STEM career at the moment.

The discussions I've seen were about homeschooled (so no state requirements in many cases), non-college-bound (so no college entrance requirements) students. The suggested replacements for algebra were things like accounting, consumer math, and geometry (?? not sure how you do that without algebra). The idea being that those are the maths needed for "real life," while algebra is not.

Nothing against accounting and consumer math. We will probably work one of those into dd's schedule when she needs a math break, especially since she has extra room, and I do think they are worthwhile to learn. And I could absolutely see them as useful options for non-mathy students in place of, say trig and calculus, or maybe even Algebra 2. But I still think Algebra 1 should be required of all but the most challenged students, if only for the logic training.

[HomeAgain]

I think a big part of the problem is how some people look at education.  They see individual classes and the content of the class, not the skills being used or the increased use of logic in the upper grades.  It's part of why Latin was slowly dropped from school programs, too.

I do like the way other countries do integrated maths - I think that might be a wiser approach, but there are always going to be outliers who complain that they "never use ____ now, so why should it be taught?"  Fill in the blank with chemistry, math, foreign language...whatever.

[8filltheheart]

@kianaI wonder if that is your state's legislators' way of trying to deflect poor outcomes from public k12. The outrageous percentage of students requiring remediation reflects back poorly  on the state. If those students cannot pass an intro level course, then who is really to blame, the school system ? Or is it just a really weak student who cannot swing collegiate level work?

Or, is it possible that they have done anaylysis to see what percentage of students taking remedial courses graduate and decided against offering them based on cost analysis without concern for those who can succeed?  I know that in one of the states we lived in that remedial courses went all the way down to basic addition/subtraction. They had 3 levels of remediation before basic alg. (But that was when 27 yr old Aspie ds was 18. He was in a special autistic support group and he was taking cal and most of the other students in the group were in various levels of the remedial math.)

[kiana]

11 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

@kianaI wonder if that is your state's legislators' way of trying to deflect poor outcomes from public k12. The outrageous percentage of students requiring remediation reflects back poorly  on the state. If those students cannot pass an intro level course, then who is really to blame, the school system ? Or is it just a really weak student who cannot swing collegiate level work?

Or, is it possible that they have done anaylysis to see what percentage of students taking remedial courses graduate and decided against offering them based on cost analysis without concern for those who can succeed?  I know that in one of the states we lived in that remedial courses went all the way down to basic addition/subtraction. They had 3 levels of remediation before basic alg. (But that was when 27 yr old Aspie ds was 18. He was in a special autistic support group and he was taking cal and most of the other students in the group were in various levels of the remedial math.)

 

It is because overall, the statistics (correctly) say that students who enroll in accelerated tracks are more likely to complete their college credit classes. Fewer of them pass each semester, but because fewer semesters are required more will complete it. The majority of students are more successful in this track; most of the students who are not successful would not have been successful in any track, because they are not passing due to not doing the work (whether it is due to personal negligence or external issues, it does not matter -- both are very common). 

But it sure does suck for the students who would have been much more successful in the old track, and for the students where it is genuinely new information and they have never, ever learned it before. 

[kiana]

6 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

Well, that's absolutely maddening, innit!

 

More depressing than anything else. I've seen the rhetoric in the radical forums where they insist that if your kid really wants to learn, they'll be able to pick up the knowledge. I've seen some extremely far-fetched stories. In reality, there's a limit to how much can be learned in a year by even the brightest and most motivated students. 

Edit: I can take someone who can understand a variable and is ready to begin to understand the concept of a function and get them through our streamlined track. But for a lot of students, there is a time gap between when they're ready to understand variables and when they're ready to understand the more abstract concepts, and they'll do okay in the beginning parts because they're ready to understand variables, but they're NOT ready to move to functions. 

And this is why algebra 1 is an absolute requirement, in my mind, for a student who is at all capable. It will often be required, even at the CC associate's in applied science courses, and it closes doors that someone may never be able to open again. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by kiana

[Jean in Newcastle]

39 minutes ago, kiana said:

 

More depressing than anything else. I've seen the rhetoric in the radical forums where they insist that if your kid really wants to learn, they'll be able to pick up the knowledge. I've seen some extremely far-fetched stories. In reality, there's a limit to how much can be learned in a year by even the brightest and most motivated students. 

Edit: I can take someone who can understand a variable and is ready to begin to understand the concept of a function and get them through our streamlined track. But for a lot of students, there is a time gap between when they're ready to understand variables and when they're ready to understand the more abstract concepts, and they'll do okay in the beginning parts because they're ready to understand variables, but they're NOT ready to move to functions. 

And this is why algebra 1 is an absolute requirement, in my mind, for a student who is at all capable. It will often be required, even at the CC associate's in applied science courses, and it closes doors that someone may never be able to open again. 

I understand why some students can’t succeed in the fast track courses, but I wonder why the students don’t take the money and hire a tutor instead. Or go through Khan academy or do Chalkdust or any of the other ways to do algebra 1 more slowly on their own. Though maybe because they had written off “higher “ math, they just don’t know what is out there. 

[kiana]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

I understand why some students can’t succeed in the fast track courses, but I wonder why the students don’t take the money and hire a tutor instead. Or go through Khan academy or do Chalkdust or any of the other ways to do algebra 1 more slowly on their own. Though maybe because they had written off “higher “ math, they just don’t know what is out there. 

 

Financial aid won't pay for that. Cost is prohibitive for many in the population I'm working with. 

[Heathermomster]

Pre-algebra and algebra are typically taught in middle school.  That seems very young to limit a child’s future career choices by not teaching pre-algebra/algebra.  Unless one takes the conceptual science route through high school, the student cannot take regular algebra based chemistry or physics either.

Yes, algebra should be a mandatory high school math course along with geometry.  Finite Math should also be an option.  Alternative math options should be available to students with diagnosed SLDs.

 

[PeterPan]

The people saying algebra is unnecessary are missing the POINT and don't have a solidly developed philosophy of education. Using their logic we could toss more of high school, mercy. Memorizing biology terms also isn't something you'll probably need to do in order to shop, work a job, do FB, etc. 

Much of education is about nurturing a thought process. There's a new study out that even the attempt, one time, to memorize a list of biology terms CHANGES BRAIN STRUCTURE. My bad, it wasn't bio, hehe. It was organic chemistry terms. https://neurosciencenews.com/organic-chemistry-changes-brain-hippocampus-10869/?fbclid=IwAR1MuQZ5gVsMC9X7Wx5ESIioMpB09ukEO0QAf7ANwETzh0eStgmLVdDJdnc   Just the ATTEMPT to think in a logical, orderly fashion is worthwhile, whether the student is going to be stellar at it or not. Realizing the world has order is worthwhile. Working at something hard, dealing with frustration, turning in projects on time, these are worthwhile.

There's MRI data out now showing that just the ATTEMPT to learn something makes new brain pathways, whether the person gets the correct answer at it or not. They're learning more by doing the work than just the algebra or just the whatever. Here's a link on that "mistakes grow your brain" idea. https://www.youcubed.org/evidence/mistakes-grow-brain/

The education was about way more than the content. So if people don't think their kids need to learn to think clearly and logically to the extent that they're able, then, you know, just walk away from that conversation. My kid has significant SLDs and probably a cap on what he'll accomplish that looks typical, despite his gifted IQ. I still want him to LEARN TO THINK to the degree he's able.

Edited March 9, 2019 by PeterPan

[hollyhock2]

18 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

I think both Algebra and Geometry are absolutely necessary parts of the basic high school education for those without disabilities.    

Agreed. I have kids who will probably all end up in trades, and a husband who is a farmer. Algebra, geometry and basic trig are necessary even for trades and blue collar jobs. I think a person can probably get by in life with just pre-algebra, but why should that be the goal? That's aiming so low, especially when kids are capable of doing more. Besides, as someone else said, what else will you do in high school math? There aren't enough other options to fill four years.

[J-rap]

6 minutes ago, hollyhock2 said:

Agreed. I have kids who will probably all end up in trades, and a husband who is a farmer. Algebra, geometry and basic trig are necessary even for trades and blue collar jobs. I think a person can probably get by in life with just pre-algebra, but why should that be the goal? That's aiming so low, especially when kids are capable of doing more. Besides, as someone else said, what else will you do in high school math? There aren't enough other options to fill four years.

I (respectfully) disagree.  I really believe that a good, strong understanding of Algebra is perfectly adequate for the majority of people, along with just a very basic, probably 1/2 credit course of Geometry.  I don't think four years of math should be required.  I do think a consumer math class should be required, however, for those who opt out of advanced math (I mean, besides Algebra and very basic Geometry).  With my children, I spent two years on Algebra 1.  Then, about 1/2 year on Algebra 2 and 1/2 year on Geometry.  Only one took Trig.  They're all doing very well in their professional careers.  I'm not against higher level math, of course!  But I don't think it's as necessary as some people think.

[Sneezyone]

21 minutes ago, hollyhock2 said:

Agreed. I have kids who will probably all end up in trades, and a husband who is a farmer. Algebra, geometry and basic trig are necessary even for trades and blue collar jobs. I think a person can probably get by in life with just pre-algebra, but why should that be the goal? That's aiming so low, especially when kids are capable of doing more. Besides, as someone else said, what else will you do in high school math? There aren't enough other options to fill four years.

 

I also hate to see people push the military on unprepared youth like that’s an out. The services also need people with strong math skills.

[kiana]

For Geometry, basic results are usually not taught in college classes and are necessary.

Proofs aren't. I mean don't get me wrong, I love proofs and personally I believe that everyone capable should do them, but I don't think it's something that's going to completely mess you up if you don't have it. 

But knowing things like that to find a perimeter you just add up the lengths of the sides ... that messes with people. They want to try to memorize formulas for perimeters, and they can't find the perimeter of a triangle because they forgot the formula. The area of a rectangle. The volume of a box. They don't need to know the terminology, but I mean, that one is even applicable to real life when you're trying to find cubic feet of things. And more importantly, what does area mean. Why can't you measure area in feet or cubic feet? 

We don't formally teach similar triangles although I have written a handout dealing with them because I have found so many of my underprepared students do not know them, but it's still a "do this on your own". We don't teach vertical angles or transversals (although a handout on that is forthcoming too) but they're used all the time in trig/calculus word problems. The Pythagorean Theorem is also something they should know. We do teach supplementary and complementary but it requires some time to actually understand what they mean. 

What words like parallel and perpendicular mean. Or even what a right angle is, and what an angle is. What does an acute angle mean? Why can't you find the complement of an obtuse angle? 

Most of what I've listed shows up in pre-algebra (or at least in my pre-algebra book from 1989, lol) and the rest shows up in even a basic geometry course. A half credit would probably be plenty to be able to function in a developmental math class. But all of the above are things that I've had people have serious trouble trying to understand. 

In case it isn't obvious, we're in the middle of a developmental math semi-major redesign (fixing stuff following a major redesign) and I've been doing a lot a lot a lot of thinking about these types of things. 

[hollyhock2]

1 hour ago, J-rap said:

I (respectfully) disagree.  I really believe that a good, strong understanding of Algebra is perfectly adequate for the majority of people, along with just a very basic, probably 1/2 credit course of Geometry.  I don't think four years of math should be required.  I do think a consumer math class should be required, however, for those who opt out of advanced math (I mean, besides Algebra and very basic Geometry).  With my children, I spent two years on Algebra 1.  Then, about 1/2 year on Algebra 2 and 1/2 year on Geometry.  Only one took Trig.  They're all doing very well in their professional careers.  I'm not against higher level math, of course!  But I don't think it's as necessary as some people think.

I don't disagree with you at all. I had basic geometry in mind, and basic trig (which, in our experience, has only been needed when DH is building farm equipment, which most farmers don't do). Full courses in each may not be necessary.

ETA: I'm not in the US, so trigonometry here is integrated into math classes starting in Gr. 9 or 10, so it's pretty basic. I wasn't referring to pre-calculus or a full trig course.

Edited March 9, 2019 by hollyhock2

[Farrar]

6 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

Pre-algebra and algebra are typically taught in middle school.  That seems very young to limit a child’s future career choices by not teaching pre-algebra/algebra.  Unless one takes the conceptual science route through high school, the student cannot take regular algebra based chemistry or physics either.

Yes, algebra should be a mandatory high school math course along with geometry.  Finite Math should also be an option.  Alternative math options should be available to students with diagnosed SLDs.

 

The most recent statistics show that while it's increasing, only about half of American middle schoolers have completed all of or some part of an Algebra I credit (such as Algebra I part 1 or integrated math that includes algebra and geometry over two years). So, while very common, I don't know if typical is exactly the right word as it's also typical to take it in high school.

I'm with everyone else in this thread. Algebra and Geometry should be absolutely required for a high school diploma unless there are learning disabilities that preclude them.

[Hunter]

I do not think homeschoolers should be held to higher requirements than the REALITY of what is taking place behind closed doors at the local public school. Some moms with very few resources and a very spotty education manage to educate their children better than the local school, even though that looks like "educational neglect" to people living in other neighborhoods and areas of the USA with greater resources.

I also believe in the right of families to HOME educate for reasons other than academic reasons, even if that means their access to ACADEMIC resources are not as rich as the ACADEMIC resources available at the local public school. The laws of the USA have repeatedly given parents the right to rear their children according to their belief system.

The USA is a BIG place as diverse as multiple countries. I do not believe in a single USA model of education.

Algebra is not only useful, but it is beautiful. I have the ability to share the subject with any child that I would find myself responsible for, and would hope to teach it to the child, but I can imagine all sorts of circumstances where the child would leave my care without the subject having been prioritized and learned. I consider myself fortunate that I am able to teach the subject; not all parents have that ability.  

The question is so much wider than if algebra is useful in most mainstream areas of the USA.

For the most part, I give parents the benefit of the doubt that they are doing the best they can for their child, in the circumstances that they exist. A parent's ability or choice to articulate their reasons is not reflective of whether they are "right". People often maneuver by their guts without a full understanding of why they are doing what they are doing, but their gut is often leading them true.  Reality bites all too often, and reality is what we exist in. Theoretical "shoulds" can hurt more than help.                                               

 

[lewelma]

No, I don't. America in general has designed a high school math curriculum that leaves you with the haves and the have nots. You can either DO algebra and move up through Algebra 2, precalc, or calc; or you can't and then you languish in low level courses like consumer math.  There are other paths, and NZ has one of them. 

NZ uses integrated math in 8th, 9th, and 10th grade including geometry, algebra, and statistics.  This means that although ALL students are exposed to algebra, they can pass an integrated math course and still fail algebra, and be allowed to move forward.  In 10th grade, they can even stop the integrated course, switch to statistics, and avoid algebra all together starting in 10th. But in contrast to America, the lack of algebra will not stop their math progression. What this system allows then is for students who do not like algebra and math in general, to still be learning quantitative techniques, mathematical interpretation, questioning skills, etc.  They don't get stuck taking a geometry and Algebra 2 class that they hate that turn them off of math forever.  Instead, they can switch to a not-lower, just-different stream and focus on qualitative report writing in statistics.  This course teaches kids to interpret statistical claims rather than to DO statistics.  And it is NOT low level.  Kids walk out of these statistics classes being able to deeply understand question formulation, sampling techniques, bias, interpretation, questionnaires, bootstrapping, distributions, probability, technical writing, rejecting hypotheses, understanding medical claims, etc, etc.  The kids in these classes can be pure math haters, but because of the way it is designed, often high-level kids take both math and statistics, so there is no sense that it is a 'cabbage' class. But for the algebra-hating kids, New Zealand gives them the opportunity to take a high-level well-designed course that does not require algebra.  These kids have been *exposed* to algebra for 2-3 years, but in the end they don't have to pass it to move on in statistics.  If they had been forced to pass algebra, once it was done, they would quit math forever, or consider themselves "bad" at math.  Instead, there is a great option here and about 1/3rd of students take it (including high level kids). Students build confidence and skills, and don't hate math because they see it is both useful and effective for answering their questions about data and life.  

Here are examples of the statistical reports that they can write - notice the high level required for an 'excellence'. No algebra at all required for these reports.  

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/assets/qualifications-and-standards/qualifications/ncea/NCEA-subject-resources/Mathematics/91580/91580-EXP.pdf

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/assets/qualifications-and-standards/qualifications/ncea/NCEA-subject-resources/Mathematics/91583/91583-EXP.pdf

These are the two quantitative exams from 2018.  Notice that they are also very high level, but there is very little to no algebra required.

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/nqfdocs/ncea-resource/exemplars/2017/91585-exp-2017-excellence.pdf

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/nqfdocs/ncea-resource/exemplars/2017/91586-exp-2017-excellence.pdf

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by lewelma

[Tanaqui]

Yes, Algebra 1. Yes, Geometry. Yes, Algebra 2 - and I increasingly think we all should see more teaching of statistics in HS and somewhat less teaching of calculus! (As in, I strongly think it should be required or at least very heavily encouraged.)

I am perfectly happy teaching those same concepts in an integrated manner than in discrete courses so long as the same subject matter is being covered by the end of 12th grade. In fact, I think it may be better based on the evidence of "this is what most of the world does, and their general math proficiency doesn't seem to be worse than ours and is often better"... but I also think we could use a total overhaul of how we teach math, starting with arithmetic. ("We" is a very general term - as noted, results vary so much from state to state that it's hard to make broad statements, but I'm doing it anyway!)

As for when to teach algebra, in NYC about half of all kids in public school - not counting those with severe disabilities - take the Algebra Regents in 8th grade and the rest take it in 9th.

[Farrar]

40 minutes ago, Hunter said:

I do not think homeschoolers should be held to higher requirements than the REALITY of what is taking place behind closed doors at the local public school. Some moms with very few resources and a very spotty education manage to educate their children better than the local school, even though that looks like "educational neglect" to people living in other neighborhoods and areas of the USA with greater resources.

I also believe in the right of families to HOME educate for reasons other than academic reasons, even if that means their access to ACADEMIC resources are not as rich as the ACADEMIC resources available at the local public school. The laws of the USA have repeatedly given parents the right to rear their children according to their belief system.

The USA is a BIG place as diverse as multiple countries. I do not believe in a single USA model of education.

Algebra is not only useful, but it is beautiful. I have the ability to share the subject with any child that I would find myself responsible for, and would hope to teach it to the child, but I can imagine all sorts of circumstances where the child would leave my care without the subject having been prioritized and learned. I consider myself fortunate that I am able to teach the subject; not all parents have that ability.  

The question is so much wider than if algebra is useful in most mainstream areas of the USA.

For the most part, I give parents the benefit of the doubt that they are doing the best they can for their child, in the circumstances that they exist. A parent's ability or choice to articulate their reasons is not reflective of whether they are "right". People often maneuver by their guts without a full understanding of why they are doing what they are doing, but their gut is often leading them true.  Reality bites all too often, and reality is what we exist in. Theoretical "shoulds" can hurt more than help.                                               

 

Most states allow private schools and homeschoolers to set our own graduation requirements (not all, obviously - some states have minimums). So I don't feel like anyone was discussing whether homeschoolers should be held to the same standards. I think the question was more whether or not they should be requirements for any diploma and most people seem to agree that they should, whether or not such requirements are implemented well is maybe another matter and whether such requirements should apply to homeschoolers is yet another one (I would say maybe not, just for logistical reasons, though I'd have to think about it).

I think you're right that the reality is that many schools are pushing kids through who have not really achieved a minimum of mastery in these basics. However, I also think this is better in many areas than it was in the past.

It's nice to see you here, Hunter. Your voice is definitely missed.

[Farrar]

37 minutes ago, lewelma said:

No, I don't. America in general has designed a high school math curriculum that leaves you with the haves and the have nots. You can either DO algebra and move up through Algebra 2, precalc, or calc; or you can't and then you languish in low level courses like consumer math.  There are other paths, and NZ has one of them. 

NZ uses integrated math in 8th, 9th, and 10th grade including geometry, algebra, and statistics.  This means that although ALL students are exposed to algebra, they can pass an integrated math course and still fail algebra, and be allowed to move forward.  In 10th grade, they can even stop the integrated course, switch to statistics, and avoid algebra all together starting in 10th. But in contrast to America, the lack of algebra will not stop their math progression. What this system allows then is for students who do not like algebra and math in general, to still be learning quantitative techniques, mathematical interpretation, questioning skills, etc.  They don't get stuck taking a geometry and Algebra 2 class that they hate that turn them off of math forever.  Instead, they can switch to a not-lower, just-different stream and focus on qualitative report writing in statistics.  This course teaches kids to interpret statistical claims rather than to DO statistics.  And it is NOT low level.  Kids walk out of these statistics classes being able to deeply understand question formulation, sampling techniques, bias, interpretation, questionnaires, bootstrapping, distributions, probability, technical writing, rejecting hypotheses, understanding medical claims, etc, etc.  The kids in these classes can be pure math haters, but because of the way it is designed, often high-level kids take both math and statistics, so there is no sense that it is a 'cabbage' class. But for the algebra-hating kids, New Zealand gives them the opportunity to take a high-level well-designed course that does not require algebra.  These kids have been *exposed* to algebra for 2-3 years, but in the end they don't have to pass it to move on in statistics.  If they had been forced to pass algebra, once it was done, they would quit math forever, or consider themselves "bad" at math.  Instead, there is a great option here and about 1/3rd of students take it (including high level kids). Students build confidence and skills, and don't hate math because they see it is both useful and effective for answering their questions about data and life.  

Here are examples of the statistical reports that they can write - notice the high level required for an 'excellence'. No algebra at all required for these reports.  

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/assets/qualifications-and-standards/qualifications/ncea/NCEA-subject-resources/Mathematics/91580/91580-EXP.pdf

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/assets/qualifications-and-standards/qualifications/ncea/NCEA-subject-resources/Mathematics/91583/91583-EXP.pdf

These are the two quantitative exams from 2018.  Notice that they are also very high level, but there is very little to no algebra required.

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/nqfdocs/ncea-resource/exemplars/2017/91585-exp-2017-excellence.pdf

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/nqfdocs/ncea-resource/exemplars/2017/91586-exp-2017-excellence.pdf

 

I don't know if I fully agree with you... I think students should still have to do basic algebra. It seems to me that if you fail a full quarter to a third of the material for a year of integrated maths, that you maybe don't have a good enough grasp to move on. And I think the skills involved in the vast majority of algebra I content are basics that most people need. However, I'm glad to hear your voice on this issue. And I desperately wish there were more options for American students to move in a different direction once they have done basic algebra and geometry. The number of programs and options is very limited. Just looking at homeschool options, there are not a lot of online providers or texts for a student who wants to do statistics instead of calculus unless they want to do AP. Students who don't want to push the traditional American progression shouldn't have to languish in consumer math if they can do more.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Farrar

[Hunter]

It is nice to be back and see familiar names and faces!

[Pen]

@Hunter hey, good to see you!

! @PeachyDoodle Algebra1 , yes.  

Not sure about Algebra2.  It is required for regular high school diploma in our state, but I’m not if it should be for kids who aren’t stem oriented.  

[Terabith]

I don't think Algebra 1 is necessary for a non college bound college student.  I do think mathematics should continue in high school, but I actually think a course that includes statistics, geometry, and algebraic thinking (but not necessarily algebra), along with review of arithmetic and some training in logic would be a more productive use of time for students who are going into a lot of the trades.  (Of course, certain trades might need a different sequence.)  I honestly think a class on UNDERSTANDING statistics is essential to be a productive, educated citizen, and our school system is doing a great disservice not teaching that (and yet pushing algebra and calculus ever downards).

Edited March 10, 2019 by Terabith

[EKS]

It depends on what a "high school education" means.

If it is being used as a proxy for consciousness, then no.

If it is being used as a proxy for knowledge one needs to function at a basic level in the world, then no.

If it is being used as a proxy for intelligence, then yes.

[lewelma]

Quote

I don't know if I fully agree with you...

Well I could be more persuasive......

I have tutored the widest range of students probably possible. From my son, who is currently at MIT taking a Graduate level math course as a Freshman, all the way to a student with dyscalculia who at 17 when I asked her to calculate 9-7, took 2 full minutes with a tally chart to get 3. So I have seen a LOT.  Sure there are students who actually *can't* do algebra (like the girl I just described), there are also many students who just hate it, or who will learn it because they have to, only to forget it 6 months later.  In order to say that algebra 1 is *required* for highschool, we need to do a proper analysis and not just fall back on cultural expectations.

First of all, a highschool diploma is a base requirement for work today.  By saying algebra 1 is required, we are saying that you cannot get a proper job without passing algebra.  Let's just put that out there.

Next, I can name seven people I know personally who use algebra, and they include an IT specialist, a high school teacher, a geophysicist, a CEO, civil engineer, and 2 computer scientists.  Now here is the list of jobs of people I know personally who don't use algebra: minister, primary school teacher, counselor, artist, the associate concertmaster of the NZ symphony orchestra, builder, forester, preschool teacher, professional organizer, lawyer, writer, roofer, secretary of the prostitute's collective, UN aid worker, department of conservation project manager, outdoor educator, bed and breakfast owner, lifestyle farmer, TV producer, law librarian, community organizer, political activist, plumber, restaurant owner, valuer, museum curator, owner of car dealership, music teacher, professor in old testament, chef, and dog trainer.  These are my friends and family. They do NOT use algebra, even basic algebra. 

We need a *good* reason that these people *have* to pass algebra in order to be employed and to contribute to society and provide for their families.

In order to say that algebra is required to be employed, we must do more than just say it is useful, or beautiful, or foundational, or good for the mind, or needed so kids aren't limited in the future.  We must say that it is *better* than something else that could take its place. 

1) Useful and foundational : well, clearly it is both useful and foundational for people going into fields that require it, but it is simply neither useful or foundational for the list of all the jobs mentioned above.

2) Good for the Mind: There are many things that will train the mind. Latin, philosophy, technical drawing, to name a few.  But to say that algebra is the *best* trainer of the mind is simply false.  People must be engaged to train the mind, so the best choice is a difficult subject that a student has some passion for.

3) Beautiful: To say that algebra should be required because it is beautiful undermines the definition of beauty.  Just go look into the philosophy of aesthetics to see what all the possibilities are.

4) Limiting students' options without it:   Only. because. we. make. it. so.  If we designed it, students who decide on a more mathy career later in life could learn the required math later in life.  I am doing this with two 17 year olds -- they are currently learning algebra 1. (One has decided that instead of a hair dresser, she wants to be an economist; the other is applying to American universities and must take the SAT. Neither have passed algebra. ) So yes, lacking algebra will delay entry into certain fields of study, but to say we require *all* people to take algebra even if they hate it, in order to make sure that those few who change their minds aren't too far behind, is very unfair to the ones who suffer.  I see the sufferers.  I see them cut, rip their fingernails off, burn their hands, abuse alcohol, take illegal drugs, drop out of school.  These students suffer when required to do something they hate.  Children have rights and to limit their future employment by holding their diploma hostage to algebra is ridiculous.

Finally, I believe strongly that algebra takes time away from more valuable learning for many students. Qualitative statisitics is where we need to send these kids.  It is useful and foundation to many many careers and to being an informed citizen. It allows you to understand what you read and hear about studies in health, culture, food, politics, and current issues.  It allows you to consider if the study is biased or the sample is not reflective of the population.  It allows you to think critically about how studies are designed and what they can actually tell us. It is way more useful than a year of algebra half learned.  My 9-7 dyscalculia girl passed 12th grade statistics including the quantitative units (see exemplars in my previous post) because she could use a calculator. She continued all the way through high school in statistics because she believed it was valuable.  She gained entrance into university *without* passing algebra, and is now studying political science and Maori. Students like her and those who simply hate algebra, will quit math the moment they can. When other options are on offer, they will take mathematical courses for longer into their school careers. Requiring algebra for those who hate it does not help them. They learn to dread math and forget anything they ever learned the moment they are allowed.

I will stand by my firm believe that Algebra should NOT be a requirement for a highschool diploma. 

Ruth in NZ

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[Ellie]

No. Nope. Nuh-uh.

[lewelma]

The strength of your argument, Ellie, is somewhat lacking.  😀

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[Garga]

15 hours ago, kiana said:

 

More depressing than anything else. I've seen the rhetoric in the radical forums where they insist that if your kid really wants to learn, they'll be able to pick up the knowledge. I've seen some extremely far-fetched stories. In reality, there's a limit to how much can be learned in a year by even the brightest and most motivated students. 

Edit: I can take someone who can understand a variable and is ready to begin to understand the concept of a function and get them through our streamlined track. But for a lot of students, there is a time gap between when they're ready to understand variables and when they're ready to understand the more abstract concepts, and they'll do okay in the beginning parts because they're ready to understand variables, but they're NOT ready to move to functions. 

And this is why algebra 1 is an absolute requirement, in my mind, for a student who is at all capable. It will often be required, even at the CC associate's in applied science courses, and it closes doors that someone may never be able to open again. 

 

There are dozens of homeschool materials out there that can teach them the math they need to know.  CLE is a solid, inexpensive one that’s written to the student.  The door doesn’t have to be closed forever, though there will be a delay.  

14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I understand why some students can’t succeed in the fast track courses, but I wonder why the students don’t take the money and hire a tutor instead. Or go through Khan academy or do Chalkdust or any of the other ways to do algebra 1 more slowly on their own. Though maybe because they had written off “higher “ math, they just don’t know what is out there. 

 

Ah—you just said the same thing I was thinking.

[lewelma]

7 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I feel like the right answer to “kids hate algebra” is to make algebra more engaging, not cut it out altogether. Our world is built on science and there are many, many things you can’t hope to understand if you’ve never seen a variable. Not teaching basic algebra closes doors.

In NZ, we expose students to algebra in 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th grade. But they do not have to pass it in an integrated course to move forward in statistics or to university.  They have multiple years to have it sink in. For some, it never will.  I am NOT suggesting students should not be exposed.

Not teaching basic algebra closes doors only if we allow it to.  The math requirement to enter university in NZ is 10th grade math with or *without* algebra, and there is no math requirement in NZ in university to fulfill some distributed requirement.

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Interesting. Dyscalculia aside, what prevents it from sinking in?

Dyscalculia is a sliding scale, so where do you draw the line?  Other factors:  ADHD, so they can never focus long enough to get it.  Poor working memory, so they can't remember what to do.  Slow processing speed, so they get frustrated and lose interest.  And the big one is clear career goals that do not require algebra--.  so there is no reason to pursue it.

And it is not all students.  I have remediated one kid from not knowing 1/10 was 0.1 at age 15 to Calculus in 3 years.  He is now a fine arts major. And I have also remediated a girl at age 14 who did not understand how to answer "you have 8 apples and I give you 6 more", now 3 years later she is starting algebra 2. So I know how to bring kids up, and up fast.  And to motivate.  But for some kids, it is just not going to work.  Better to use their math time for something more productive like qualitative statistics.  They feel empowered and keep going.  I am currently tutoring a kid who plans to be a fashion designer, and I've convinced her to do 12th grade statistics even though she cannot do algebra. Teens are unique, and we cannot force them into little square boxes.

Quote

in terms of closing doors, I just meant that you can’t pursue or understand lots of fundamental things about the world without it.

Just an FYI, in NZ the equivalent of AP physics is a qualitative course (with just a bit of algebra).  My ds who is a freshman at MIT took calculus-based, Honors physics last term with a bunch of kids who had studied calculus-based physics in school in America.  He got the top grade in the MIT HONORS physics class.  He told me that the math was easy; it was the concepts that were hard.  And all the students who had focused on calculus-based physics in high school just didn't know physics as well as he did even though he had taken a mostly qualitative, algebra-based physics course in high school.

My point is that a lot is learned without math. For a kid who struggles in math to the point of dread, there are other paths forward.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

Well I could be more persuasive......

I have tutored the widest range of students probably possible. From my son, who is currently at MIT taking a Graduate level math course as a Freshman, all the way to a student with dyscalculia who at 17 when I asked her to calculate 9-7, took 2 full minutes with a tally chart to get 3. So I have seen a LOT.  Sure there are students who actually *can't* do algebra (like the girl I just described), there are also many students who just hate it, or who will learn it because they have to, only to forget it 6 months later.  In order to say that algebra 1 is *required* for highschool, we need to do a proper analysis and not just fall back on cultural expectations.

First of all, a highschool diploma is a base requirement for work today.  By saying algebra 1 is required, we are saying that you cannot get a proper job without passing algebra.  Let's just put that out there.

Next, I can name seven people I know personally who use algebra, and they include an IT specialist, a high school teacher, a geophysicist, a CEO, civil engineer, and 2 computer scientists.  Now here is the list of jobs of people I know personally who don't use algebra: minister, primary school teacher, counselor, artist, the associate concertmaster of the NZ symphony orchestra, builder, forester, preschool teacher, professional organizer, lawyer, writer, roofer, secretary of the prostitute's collective, UN aid worker, department of conservation project manager, outdoor educator, bed and breakfast owner, lifestyle farmer, TV producer, law librarian, community organizer, political activist, plumber, restaurant owner, valuer, museum curator, owner of car dealership, music teacher, professor in old testament, chef, and dog trainer.  These are my friends and family. They do NOT use algebra, even basic algebra. 

We need a *good* reason that these people *have* to pass algebra in order to be employed and to contribute to society and provide for their families.

 

You're not using algebra as a primary school teacher or builder? Really? I had the devil of a time finding a finance person for our office who could do basic (really basic) formulas in Excel to calculate sums and averages. This explains a lot. Those formulas were nothing but algebraic expressions with 'cells' in place of variables. I spent 15 minutes with DS last week explaining he could solve a bonus problem/puzzle using algebraic reasoning. Algebra (as opposed to Trig or Calc) is the one math topic I've consistently used in my adult life.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Sneezyone

[lewelma]

57 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

You're not using algebra as a primary school teacher or builder? Really? I had the devil of a time finding a finance person for our office who could do basic (really basic) formulas in Excel to calculate sums and averages. This explains a lot. Those formulas were nothing but algebraic expressions with 'cells' in place of variables. I spent 15 minutes with DS last week explaining he could solve a bonus problem/puzzle using algebraic reasoning. Algebra (as opposed to Trig or Calc) is the one math topic I've consistently used in my adult life.

My primary school teacher friend teaches 6 year olds, and is a remedial reading teacher. She does not use algebra.

The builder that came to my house yesterday may be manipulating numbers in his head or on paper, but it is not in algebraic format or recognized as algebra. It is math intuition that was developed on the job in his apprenticeship that was 4 years long.

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

We are not talking about whether algebra is useful to learn.  The question is whether algebra should be *required* for a high school diploma.

Basically, should every. single. student. regardless of job interest be required to pass algebra to be employed?

I say NO.

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

dp

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[Ausmumof3]

I think there’s a lot more math in primary school that requires what might be called “algebraic thinking”. It’s not actual algebra using x and y as we think of it but uses similar techniques to find an unknown quantity.  I think this skill is important for all kids unless there’s a learning difficulty that prevents it but actual algebra through caculus not so much.  I do use algebra very occasionally in my adult life but my dh will often solve the same problem on a different way or just intuit the answer.  My kids solve stuff using bar diagrams that I want to use an x and a y for.  

There were kids in my high school for whom algebra was pure torture and they never got it.  For them I think it was just a waste of time.

to be honest our schools follow a different path though with a mix of algebra/geometry/statistics right through all the high school years whereas it seems like US does one subject then the next then the next.