Do you consider algebra a requirement for a high school education?

[Ausmumof3]

15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The people saying algebra is unnecessary are missing the POINT and don't have a solidly developed philosophy of education. Using their logic we could toss more of high school, mercy. Memorizing biology terms also isn't something you'll probably need to do in order to shop, work a job, do FB, etc. 

Much of education is about nurturing a thought process. There's a new study out that even the attempt, one time, to memorize a list of biology terms CHANGES BRAIN STRUCTURE. My bad, it wasn't bio, hehe. It was organic chemistry terms. https://neurosciencenews.com/organic-chemistry-changes-brain-hippocampus-10869/?fbclid=IwAR1MuQZ5gVsMC9X7Wx5ESIioMpB09ukEO0QAf7ANwETzh0eStgmLVdDJdnc   Just the ATTEMPT to think in a logical, orderly fashion is worthwhile, whether the student is going to be stellar at it or not. Realizing the world has order is worthwhile. Working at something hard, dealing with frustration, turning in projects on time, these are worthwhile.

There's MRI data out now showing that just the ATTEMPT to learn something makes new brain pathways, whether the person gets the correct answer at it or not. They're learning more by doing the work than just the algebra or just the whatever. Here's a link on that "mistakes grow your brain" idea. https://www.youcubed.org/evidence/mistakes-grow-brain/

The education was about way more than the content. So if people don't think their kids need to learn to think clearly and logically to the extent that they're able, then, you know, just walk away from that conversation. My kid has significant SLDs and probably a cap on what he'll accomplish that looks typical, despite his gifted IQ. I still want him to LEARN TO THINK to the degree he's able.

I guess my issue with these kind of debates is why organic chemistry?  Or math?  Or music?  Or whatever.  Why can’t my kid just develop orderly thinking by studying everything to do with fly fishing or drones if it’s just the process of learning or thinking that counts?  At some point there is a kind of arbitrariness about what we decide they should learn.

[lewelma]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

I guess my issue with these kind of debates is why organic chemistry?  Or math?  Or music?  Or whatever.  Why can’t my kid just develop orderly thinking by studying everything to do with fly fishing or drones if it’s just the process of learning or thinking that counts?  At some point there is a kind of arbitrariness about what we decide they should learn.

I completely agree. My point 2 of my previous point:

But to say that algebra is the *best* trainer of the mind is simply false.  People must be *engaged* to train the mind, so the best choice is a difficult subject that a student has some passion for.

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[geodob]

It is unfortunate that Algebra is first introduced, using a math model.
Instead of first introducing the idea of algebraic thinking.
As a method of thinking. Which rather than a deductive process, to arrive at an answer?
Begins with the answer.  Then identifies the elements used to arrive at it?
These 'elements', are then each considered for their 'possible variation'?
How would altering any of them effect the outcome?

Math is just one type, of Algebraic Thinking.
Where it would be better to first introduce it as a 'way of thinking'.
Then later,  explore how Math can be used with Algebraic Thinking?

[kiana]

8 hours ago, Garga said:

 

There are dozens of homeschool materials out there that can teach them the math they need to know.  CLE is a solid, inexpensive one that’s written to the student.  The door doesn’t have to be closed forever, though there will be a delay.  

 

Totally. But most people are not very good at self-teaching; it does effectively limit it to those with the gumption to go and find a good self-teaching book and go back through independently, or exchange work of some kind for tutoring. They exist -- I know some of them -- but they're not as common. 

However, I was originally primarily responding to the "the CC will teach it, " because that is becoming less and less of a possibility. It's more probable that someone who has not been exposed will *have* to find external sources to get themselves up to the end of algebra 1 if they expect to succeed even in CC classes. And unfortunately, they don't even realize that, so they sign up anyway. If your CC still has beginning algebra and intermediate algebra as separate courses, and especially if there's a pre-algebra class, you'll probably be fine. 

I'm not intending for this to shift into a "let's figure out how these other people could have solved the problem" -- all I'm saying is don't pretend that it's not going to be a problem. Because it is. 

Edit: I'm also not really talking about kids who by disability are prevented from understanding algebra. I just think it's doing a severe disservice to a child who IS capable to not teach it. So I would say it's a requirement for any capable child. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by kiana

[Ellie]

7 hours ago, lewelma said:

My primary school teacher friend teaches 6 year olds, and is a remedial reading teacher. She does not use algebra.

The builder that came to my house yesterday may be manipulating numbers in his head or on paper, but it is not in algebraic format or recognized as algebra. It is math intuition that was developed on the job in his apprenticeship that was 4 years long.

Exactly!

I can do all sorts of math-y things without writing them out in algebraic format. I had good basic arithmetic instruction (which included some geometry, btw).

[Ellie]

15 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Maybe we ought to clarify what "algebra" means. I think there are only so many things I think of as important algebraic concepts, and they are all conceptual leaps. For example, the idea that a variable stands for a number and can be worked with like a number is a conceptual leap and one that I think kids could be exposed to WAY before high school or even middle school. 

I mean a course where we learn to solve for X, a high school-level course called "algebra," which was the question: Should a course of algebra be required for high school graduation? I say no.

[Hilltopmom]

As a parent of a child with dyscalculia, who most likely won’t get a diploma in my state due to not being able to pass algebra, even if she passes everything else required for graduation (no we don’t have special ed diplomas- it’s all or nothing) ... my vote is no.

What would be useful for her? Consumer math. But it’s not considered high school math and not offered.

As a certified preschool special education teacher, required to have a master’s degree in order to be certified, I can tell you I do NOT use algebra in my job. Writing skills (lots of reports and IEPs), behavior management, being able to identify motivators, keep the attention of a room full of special needs 3-4 year olds, communicating with parents, yes. Algebra- no.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Hilltopmom

[hollyhock2]

14 hours ago, lewelma said:

Finally, I believe strongly that algebra takes time away from more valuable learning for many students. Qualitative statisitics is where we need to send these kids.  It is useful and foundation to many many careers and to being an informed citizen.

Lewelma, do you have a recommendation for a qualitative statistics course? Like others have said, it is difficult to find statistics courses in the homeschool market. Do you have any suggestions?

[Terabith]

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Actually, to me, it's not about being employed, as there are a ton of jobs a person can get without a high school diploma.  They aren't jobs that are all that skilled and without a diploma, they aren't going to offer much in the way of moving up or provide enough to really support a family well, but they do exist.

To me, the question is whether or not algebra should be required for a high school diploma.  A high school diploma, IMO, signals a particular level of education.  I think it's a given that not everyone is going to be using all the education they received in high school, nor will everyone remember all the education they were given.  But I think receiving XYZ basic level of education signals that you have received enough education to give you a good chance of having lots of options and routes to become a productive member of society (which, again, IMO, doesn't necessarily mean being employed.)   IMO, it's really mostly about what is the baseline of education that we want to say that we are aiming to send our children into adulthood with.   Not that everyone is going to need it, use it or remember it, but that providing that baseline and diploma to mark the achievement of that baseline is going to generally provide most adults with a wide variety of options.

*now, I say aiming, because I think that there should be different baselines for those who have disabilities or are otherwise unable to achieve the general baseline.  

In an ideal world, it would not be about being employed.  In real life, if you do not have a high school diploma, you essentially cannot be a functioning adult.  You cannot get a job that will even begin to support you.  Especially when the economy tanks, even fast food places and grocery store stackers will not hire anyone (especially a non teen) who does not have a high school diploma.  Don't kid yourself.  When you say, "This is what I'm mandating for a high school diploma," that you aren't essentially condemning people who cannot attain those standards to a life that is not really worth living.  

[Clemsondana]

There was a time when I would have answered that everybody needed some subset of the standard math path, and my own kids will have both taken algebra in middle school because they'll be ready for it at that point.  That being said...when my parents (who graduated from public schools in a large southern city in the 1960s) were in school, only the smartest made it to Algebra 2.  I'm not even sure that both of them took geometry.  I'm pretty sure that it was possible to graduate from high school without algebra, taking a 'consumer/practical math' pathway.  And, when I was in high school, I tried to help a couple of friends get through algebra.  I don't know if the problem was lack of background preparation or lack of ability to do abstract thinking, but they got nothing from the class even if they did manage to squeak by with a passing grade.  I know that one of them is now a truck driver, a job that my algebra-adept self would struggle to do but which friend probably couldn't get without a high school diploma that requires passing algebra.  Interestingly, this same friend took accounting and business math and did well at the high school versions of those classes...I'm pretty sure that they would have been better served by taking a statistics class than an algebra class.  

I think that one of the questions that we have to ask is whether a high school diploma should signify some sort of college-prep-readiness.  In some states, the licensing for things like cosmetology or a commercial drivers license seems to be linked to having a high school diploma.  It seems unreasonable to say that the requirement to be a cosmetologist is that one must pass a college-prep high school program, when the student is clearly indicating that they have chosen a profession that doesn't require a college degree.  I would agree that people who know algebra use it to simplify everyday calculations, that facility with algebra can be beneficial (and often develop with practical experience) in folks in trades like construction, but I also think that it is reasonable to say that some people will never use it.  

I once had a fascinating conversation with some of my high school upperclassmen about what classes should be required.  One said that he thought that students should have to learn something, and obviously there's a base set of info required for specific fields, but he felt (and I agree) that students are better off learning something outside of the proscribed plan than learning the normal things poorly.  

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

In an ideal world, it would not be about being employed.  In real life, if you do not have a high school diploma, you essentially cannot be a functioning adult.  You cannot get a job that will even begin to support you.  Especially when the economy tanks, even fast food places and grocery store stackers will not hire anyone (especially a non teen) who does not have a high school diploma.  Don't kid yourself.  When you say, "This is what I'm mandating for a high school diploma," that you aren't essentially condemning people who cannot attain those standards to a life that is not really worth living.  

This. 

My list of non-algebra jobs in my previous post were all high level.  They all require a high school diploma in the current American system even though they don't require algebra on the job.  I did not include low-skilled jobs: dishwasher, fruit picker, cleaner, trash collector, etc. 

Quote

minister, primary school teacher, counselor, artist, the associate concertmaster of the NZ symphony orchestra, builder, forester, preschool teacher, professional organizer, lawyer, writer, roofer, secretary of the prostitute's collective, UN aid worker, department of conservation project manager, outdoor educator, bed and breakfast owner, lifestyle farmer, TV producer, law librarian, community organizer, political activist, plumber, restaurant owner, valuer, museum curator, owner of car dealership, music teacher, professor in old testament, chef, and dog trainer.  

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

A high school diploma, IMO, signals a particular level of education.  I think it's a given that not everyone is going to be using all the education they received in high school, nor will everyone remember all the education they were given.  But I think receiving XYZ basic level of education signals that you have received enough education to give you a good chance of having lots of options and routes to become a productive member of society (which, again, IMO, doesn't necessarily mean being employed.)   IMO, it's really mostly about what is the baseline of education that we want to say that we are aiming to send our children into adulthood with.   Not that everyone is going to need it, use it or remember it, but that providing that baseline and diploma to mark the achievement of that baseline is going to generally provide most adults with a wide variety of options.

 

So why algebra over qualitative statistics?

Go look carefully at my links and come back an tell me that they do not show a base level of education. Explain to my why algebra would be a better choice.

I am not saying *math* should not be required, but I am arguing that *algebra* is the wrong choice for many many reasons. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, hollyhock2 said:

Lewelma, do you have a recommendation for a qualitative statistics course? Like others have said, it is difficult to find statistics courses in the homeschool market. Do you have any suggestions?

 

Yes, NZ has publishers who make cheap workbooks.  I'll get the links later today. 

[lewelma]

11 hours ago, hollyhock2 said:

Lewelma, do you have a recommendation for a qualitative statistics course? Like others have said, it is difficult to find statistics courses in the homeschool market. Do you have any suggestions?

 

This is what we use here in NZ for a qualitative report writing class.  Its focus is on asking good questions, figuring out how to collect data to answer it, analyzing data, graphing data appropriately, explaining bias, sampling, making inferences, understanding assumptions, planning future work,etc.  The ultimate purpose is to understand what can and can't be said with the data that has been collected.  

10th grade qualitative statistics workbooks include:

1.10 Multivariate data (analyzing data)

1.11 Bivariate data (analyzing data)

1.12 Chance and data (probability)

1.13 Elements of chance (experiments)

These booklets published by Sigma are very very good. They are about 40 pages each and have detailed written answers. 

http://www.sigmapublications.co.nz/math-workbooks/ncea-level-1/ (scroll down to the bottom of the list to find the statistics)

exemplars for all reports for 10th, 11th, and 12th grade units:

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/ncea/subjects/mathematics/exemplars/

Edited March 11, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Nulake is a good publisher for 11th and 12th grade, and has data online that you can use to analyze. A full year course would be 5 units.

 https://www.nulake.co.nz/products/nulake-year-12/

11th grade Units include:

2.8 Questionnaire

2.9 Statistical inference

2.11 Evaluate statistically based reports

2.12 Probability methods 

2.13 Simulations

12th grade units:

3.8 Time series

3.9 Bivariate data

3.10 Statistical inference

3.11 Experiments

3.13 probability concepts (quantitative unit)

3.14 probability distributions (quantitative unit)

https://www.nulake.co.nz/products/nulake-year-13/

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

21 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

If we take employable reasoning out of the equation, what sorts of educational elements do you believe are necessary for minor to graduate into adulthood with?  As a person crosses from childhood to adulthood.....what sort things does the adullt need to know to give the adult the best opportunities...........employable or otherwise................to make their way in life?

Two goals for a public education stand out to me:

1) Being an informed voter.  Statistics allows people to understand news about the environment, social issues, surveys, poverty, water quality, demographic trends, etc and thus make informed decisions when they vote. This requires statistical knowledge.

2) Understand mental and physical health issues to make informed decisions about your own life.  This includes understanding research in the news on medicine, food, mental illness, etc.; and understanding risk associated with different procedures on offer when one is injured or ill. Once again, statistics and probability.

Statistics in my book is way way way more important than algebra for the everyman. 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by lewelma

[Sneezyone]

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

To be perfectly honest.....I have never taken a statistics course in my life.  In fact, I don't even think that it was offered in my high school.  I did however take Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2, and have, in my every day life, solved problems for variables and other sorts of algebraic function.  In fact, I have used it to teach my 4th grader's math curriculum.  Given that I have never taken a stats course, I can't really say that I would have used it in every day life, as a parent, SAHM, etc.  I am a person who isn't using my high school level education for an employable reason.  

If we take employable reasoning out of the equation, what sorts of educational elements do you believe are necessary for minor to graduate into adulthood with?  As a person crosses from childhood to adulthood.....what sort things does the adullt need to know to give the adult the best opportunities...........employable or otherwise................to make their way in life?

In addition, what are the skills/knowledge required to ensure students can transition and move from one job/career to another (since that kind of flexibility is increasingly necessary among workers)?

[Terabith]

I think you can teach (and expect students to master) simpler components of algebraic thinking and variables, which honestly are the extent of algebra that I use in my daily life, without requiring completion of an algebra COURSE.  Algebraic thinking and simple variable stuff starts in first grade, when you start to introduce subtraction as the reverse of addition and instead of asking 6+4= what, you ask 6+ what = 10?  If we taught math well in upper elementary and middle school, the parts of algebra and geometry that most people utilize in their lives and non scientific careers could easily be covered.  

[Farrar]

I'm all for making stats more fundamental to American math. (And thanks for the links, Ruth!) And there are elements of an Algebra I program that I think possibly shouldn't specifically be gatekeepers for high school diplomas. Especially some topics in factoring polynomials, which isn't stuff that non-STEM folks typically use often. I do think using basic algebraic thinking is essential to most "real" jobs.

But I ask myself the same question as a couple of people have brought up. Why *any* specific thing for high school? Why biology? Why literature? Why thesis essays? Why world history? Part of me says that none of it is absolutely essential - that we should focus on critical thinking, etc. etc. But I feel like that approach has really robbed us of valuing basic information, which is sorely lacking in a lot of schools now. We need to learn things to think about before we can fully engage in learning those critical thinking skills. One way to do that is to require some basic things. But maybe there are ways to create different paths.

In a practical sense, because algebra is core to the way that every single STEM subject is taught in the US, I think the overhaul needed in our thinking would be so systematic that I don't see not requiring it happening any time soon.

[Lanny]

Many students take Algebra 1 in Middle School now.  I cannot imagine someone getting a High School diploma, who has not completed Algebra 1.  That would IMO be a very weak High School "education".  

[Clemsondana]

I'm not actually convinced that we can teach algebra to everybody if we just prep them well enough...and even if it's true, it may not be the best use of time.  It's like saying 'pretty much everybody could learn to pull themselves up on the rope climb if they just practice enough' or 'everybody can learn to listen to music and hear what time signature it's in if they just put in some time'.  It's probably true, but not the best use of time.  I'd rather people put effort into doing a mix of exercise that they'll continue over the long term, and listening to and learning to appreciate different types of music.  I sometimes think that problems arise when people who are good at something are the ones who determine what should be achievable for everybody.  Sometimes it's really hard to understand how somebody can have so much difficulty with something that you can do without thinking.  I still don't understand how my husband can't hear the difference between a musical piece in 3:4 time vs 4:4 time, but he can't.  

One of the fascinating things in Temple Grandin's book was her discussion of algebra.  She can't do it.  She's into brain scanning, and says that the part of the brain that does that sort of thinking isn't well developed in her.  If they hadn't let her sub geometry for algebra in college, she would have dropped out.  She's very self aware and willing to work, but you can't do what you can't do.  We can make the argument that she's an extreme case, but I think that there are a lot of people who have difficulty with specific types of thinking.  We have to decide if those are required for a high school diploma...and, if they are, we have to decide whether a high school diploma is a reasonable requirement for employment.  

This is on my mind because I was chatting with another mom at my kid's karate class - she teaches high school biology and was showing me the newest version of the state-specific book and looking at the format for the test that I had just given.  Our local school uses block scheduling (100 min of each class each day for one semester instead of 50 min/day for a whole year).  The special ed or remedial students need more time, so they do the standard bio material for one block each day for the whole year... and they still struggle.  Well, of course they do.  My more advanced students have to work to think through DNA replication and how the leading and lagging strands work and how to get both going 5' to 3'.  I love teaching this and think it's really cool.  It will be helpful for students as they sit on juries and need to understand PCR use in forensics, or we as a society make decisions about the use of CRISPR or GMOs.  That being said...there is so much biology to learn, and for struggling students, I'd rather them learn pretty much anything else - more about organ systems (which, being more concrete, is easier for most students), practical nature study-type identification of local flora and fauna, applied botany through nature and gardening - than spend months on something that they can learn enough keywords about to pass the test but never actually understand.  I think that for many students, advanced math falls in the same category.  

[frogger]

I think American society doesn't even know what the primary goal of a high school or college education is other than, "it's something everyone should have" which quite frankly makes it kind of meaningless. I really dislike that employment is so closely tied to it. I mean obviously for  specific career paths you would need relevant information but to say that you can't do something that has nothing to do with what is learned in school, well, that seems nonsensical. 

It makes it difficult to navigate these kind of discussions.

[Jean in Newcastle]

14 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

If we taught math well before algebra, almost no one would have trouble with algebra... There's really nothing stopping you from solving for unknowns, talking about properties of numbers in more and more abstract ways, and even doing equation manipulation way before kids are ready for algebra. Algebra ought to be a way to formalize the ideas absorbed from arithmetic, not something new and mysterious. 

I agree with this so much. . Obviously there might be some with LDs or who are not NT for whatever reason who might not be able to grasp it but I don't think that it is universal.  In Japan, where math teaching is taught very well before algebra, even the vocationally tracked students take algebra (though because of how high school is divided in Japan into three years, it would be taken in what we would call 10th grade). 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Jean in Newcastle
I can't count

[shinyhappypeople]

If it's the group I'm thinking about, you're talking with parents whose students are far more likely than average to struggle with academics generally.  

Is algebra good? Yes.  Is it essential for life? No. 

The only algebra I use in my adult life is mentally solving for x.  I have a friend who was never able to successfully learn algebra at all, and she said she's never felt the loss, has been able to manage life just fine without it.  It's definitely useful for certain fields (some of which are very blue collar/trades oriented), but nearly every math problem I run into in my everyday life can be solved with arithmetic. So, I do find the pearl-clutching over the idea of no algebra kind of funny.  

I'm considering doing a year-long algebra & geometry concepts course for my struggling learner (not college-bound).  That will cover the tiny bit of algebra she'll actually use.  I think a course in understanding statistics in the real world would be really useful.  Logic puzzles are helpful, too. But, quadratic equations as necessary for successful adulting?  Spare me.  

[shinyhappypeople]

4 hours ago, square_25 said:

If the standard is “necessary for adulting,” then none of high school is. None of middle school, at that, probably. What do you really need in life? Lots of people get by without writing well, with knowing basically no math or science, etc. To function, you probably need to read and do arithmetic, if those.

But why is that supposed to be the standard for a high school diploma?

2

Why is it MY standard for a high school diploma?  Because I'm a homeschooler and I can.  Because I *do* care about not wasting her time with subjects that will have limited value to her life.  We could waste time painfully slogging through algebra (and for her, yes, it would be a waste) or we can focus on mastering all the math she'll actually use (including a small dab of algebra).

"To function you probably need to read and arithmetic, if those."  If those?  That comes across as pretty condescending.  Let me break it down for you.  Literacy, arithmetic, and being able to write coherently are essential if you want to make a living wage, and participate in community life.  History is important because it puts our lives and politics in context.  Scientific literacy is important because it helps us understand the world around us, make informed decisions about our health, and think critically about current events (e.g. climate change).   

But most of algebra isn't necessary unless your student is interested in it or is looking to enter a specific profession that uses it.  It's not wrong to require it, but neither is it wrong to choose another path.  Algebra as a specific, universal requirement is ridiculous.  Force-feeding all students a subject that has minimal practical use for most of them diverts their energies from building skills (cognitive and practical) that actually matter.  It's a public school mindset, and my daughter is not in public school.

[PeachyDoodle]

6 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

If it's the group I'm thinking about, you're talking with parents whose students are far more likely than average to struggle with academics generally.  

I've seen it in more than one place. These are pretty generic homeschool groups, some national and some local, so I don't know any reason why they would have a higher-than-average number of struggling math students, but I could be wrong. I don't belong to any groups that specifically cater to homeschoolers with struggling students, as that doesn't really apply to me. The posts I've seen aren't really about kids who can't (for whatever reason) do algebra. They're about parents who seem ambivalent (at best) about whether or not it's worthwhile to learn.

A lot of the discussion here has trended towards "should algebra be a UNIVERSAL requirement for graduation," which wasn't really the question I was asking. I was curious whether homeschoolers here, in the context of their own schools, believe that algebra is necessary to complete their homeschool's high school program. But I don't think I made that clear, and that's okay. Lots of good points on both sides, many that I hadn't thought of before.

[frogger]

21 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

It wasn't condescending, it was merely a statement of what I think is necessary to exist in our world. I think reading is absolutely essential. I'd guess lots of people can more or less get by without arithmetic beyond adding, and in fact do. My estimate is that more than 60% of adults in the US aren't comfortable with fractions, so obviously it's not a prerequisite for a successful life. My historical knowledge is incredibly spotty (a lasting regret), and I manage just fine. More than fine: I have a math Ph.D from a good school, I could have a good job if I wasn't homeschooling. That doesn't mean that I'm going to advocate for removing history from the curriculum because I haven't needed it. 

By the way, I don't think you can have true scientific literacy without exposure to variables and functions. Those are heavily used in science. Besides which, a good mathematical education is extremely helpful with critical thinking. To be clear, I don't think most people are getting a good mathematical education. But that doesn't mean I have to throw up my hands and say that it's not a valuable thing. 

 

 

In addition to the above I will add, I do know multiple people who have survived and worked and lived a very middle class lifestyle without being able to read.  One is in his 90's and you can say times were different in his era but one is in his 30's but is a good welder which is skilled work that pays decently.

I'm sure most of us would agree reading is important even if people can survive without it. Just being able to survive without something doesn't mean it isn't useful so I'm not sure that is a good gauge. 

[PeachyDoodle]

34 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I'm on this forum because there are way fewer people on here who are totally blasé about academics than in average homeschool groups.

Yes, this is one of the things I appreciate most about this forum, and one of the reasons that I wanted to ask the question here. And, as I expected, I've been given an abundance of well-thought-out opinions from people I've come to respect.

Edited March 12, 2019 by PeachyDoodle

[Farrar]

It's tough in these conversations on a lot of groups to strike a balance. I've seen things on some homeschool groups where people are encouraging each other not to care about anything in particular. And it's like, yes, you shouldn't get hung up on any one of those things. But when it all adds up, it makes it clear that some families don't feel any obligation to present an education that has progressive skills or content in any area at all. There's no sense of rigor. There's almost an anti-intellectualism that underlies some of it - a sort of rebellion against the whims and pointless requirements of schooling that somehow becomes a reductionist belief that no requirements are good. It's like, this rule was dumb... so all rules are dumb.

One of the key things about Ruth's description of a world where algebra isn't required is that other math skills are - things that aren't absolutely necessary to life/adulting/all careers either. However, students must still follow a path where skills deepen and build on each other - there are just multiple paths available. One of the things that "algebra shouldn't be required" is code for in American conversation is "nothing should be required."  No paths should deepen or build. I'm good with the idea that maybe multiple paths can be part of a high school education - but if the education stays on the absolute surface for all subjects - only progressing the barest step past the elementary level - then really THAT'S what I have a problem with.

ETA (Apparently I had more to say...): What that deepening looks like for individual students could be radically different - especially for students who aren't NT. And that's the brilliance of homeschooling. My fear when I look at schools is that when  we've been open ended about minimum requirements and goals, it's become a lack of goals, a lack of any kind of rigor or push except for the students who will always get that because families push for it and expect it. So without specific, laid out requirements of some kind, we lose something in education.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Farrar

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

One of the things that "algebra shouldn't be required" is code for in American conversation is "nothing should be required."  

 

Very good point.

[PeachyDoodle]

7 hours ago, Farrar said:

It's tough in these conversations on a lot of groups to strike a balance. I've seen things on some homeschool groups where people are encouraging each other not to care about anything in particular. And it's like, yes, you shouldn't get hung up on any one of those things. But when it all adds up, it makes it clear that some families don't feel any obligation to present an education that has progressive skills or content in any area at all. There's no sense of rigor. There's almost an anti-intellectualism that underlies some of it - a sort of rebellion against the whims and pointless requirements of schooling that somehow becomes a reductionist belief that no requirements are good. It's like, this rule was dumb... so all rules are dumb.

One of the key things about Ruth's description of a world where algebra isn't required is that other math skills are - things that aren't absolutely necessary to life/adulting/all careers either. However, students must still follow a path where skills deepen and build on each other - there are just multiple paths available. One of the things that "algebra shouldn't be required" is code for in American conversation is "nothing should be required."  No paths should deepen or build. I'm good with the idea that maybe multiple paths can be part of a high school education - but if the education stays on the absolute surface for all subjects - only progressing the barest step past the elementary level - then really THAT'S what I have a problem with.

ETA (Apparently I had more to say...): What that deepening looks like for individual students could be radically different - especially for students who aren't NT. And that's the brilliance of homeschooling. My fear when I look at schools is that when  we've been open ended about minimum requirements and goals, it's become a lack of goals, a lack of any kind of rigor or push except for the students who will always get that because families push for it and expect it. So without specific, laid out requirements of some kind, we lose something in education.

You've put your finger on it right here. It is tough to strike a balance. So often you can't tell which angle a person is coming from, and you end up talking past one another. But I think I have a better idea how I would respond to such a question in the future, if asked.

I agree that algebra isn't *necessary* if you have another rigorous route in mind that is better suited to the student's needs and goals. And I certainly don't think every high school student needs to be dragged through trig and calculus. But unfortunately I don't think that the homeschoolers I know IRL and online in general have the kind of background that allows them to put together an alternative pathway like the ones we're discussing here. They are used to the traditional American math sequence, and the choice seems to be either that, or just do a smattering of consumer math, bookkeeping, etc. and call it good. I know that I wouldn't be able to devise a rigorous alternative sequence without a lot of research, starting with asking all of you!

People with the knowledge to come up with that kind of alternative wouldn't be the ones asking "should I bother with algebra (or even pre-algebra)?" anyway.

So yeah. It's not the algebra per se. It's, as you say, the idea of rigor (as appropriate to the student) vs. the borderline anti-intellectual, why-bother-with-anything-after-arithmetic approach.

[Ravin]

I personally would like to see Algebra 1, Geometry, Consumer Math, and Statistics as the required standard 4-year run for diploma requirements for high school math. Students on a STEM track can take Algebra 2 after taking Algebra 1 in 8th grade, and could make room for Pre-Calculus if Consumer Math and Statistics were offered in condensed format of 1 semester each for accelerated/strong math students.

Of course, I also think the maths required in college should have more bearing on the degree track the student is pursuing. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

If you are asking for my personal requirements for my homeschool, I absolutely require algebra 1. I also require geometry and algebra 2. My son was able to go from that into pre-calculus in college. We just couldn’t manage pre-calculus at home  

My feelings on high school education in my homeschool is that I wanted to provide a well rounded liberal arts education so that no matter what my kids did afterwards they would have that as a foundation. I strongly believe that education changes us as people in allowing us to think mathematically and analytically and globally etc and that a strong liberal arts education that includes math and science is one time tested way to do it. 

[vonfirmath]

On 3/8/2019 at 5:20 PM, Sherry in OH said:

Yes, but then I think students should be required to take mathematics all four years of high school, pre-9th grade courses should be used for placement not credit.   Less able students could take pre-algebra, algebra 1 over two years, and then a year of consumer math.  The split algebra program could focus on real life applications of basic algebraic concepts.    More able students who choose to stop the traditional sequence with geometry should be offered statistics or other tangential math courses for their remaining high school years.

 

The only reason I didn't take math every year of high school was the school ran out of courses to offer and my parents could not afford for me to go to the local college. I did end up with 4 years of math (I took Geometry in summer school) -- so maybe that would count?  It did hurt me though.

[vonfirmath]

22 hours ago, square_25 said:

If the standard is “necessary for adulting,” then none of high school is. None of middle school, at that, probably. What do you really need in life? Lots of people get by without writing well, with knowing basically no math or science, etc. To function, you probably need to read and do arithmetic, if those.

But why is that supposed to be the standard for a high school diploma?

 

In many areas of the world, it is not assumed every child will go to high school. They drop out at 6th. Or at 8th, when their labor is needed elsewhere. Families really struggle to allow one child to go to higher levels of school to hopefully get a better job in the future.

Even here in America, high school has not been mandatory at all times. It was made mandatory because society thought it was necessary... or to keep kids out of the job force a little longer.

 

[Hilltopmom]

This is sort of an aside, but I’ve beenlooking into jobs in my area that can be obtained without a high school diploma.

Im in NY where there is no special Ed diploma- if you can’t pass all the classes you don’t get a diploma.

Dish washer or laundry or kitchen help  at the nursing home? Need diploma or GED to apply.

Mop floors at hospital? Diploma or GED

nurses aide? Diploma or GED

daycare classroom aide? Diploma or GED

factory floor worker- diploma or GED

It’s not a pretty world out there for kids who can’t pass algebra. Especially for kids “not disabled  enough” to qualify for dev disability employment or stipend programs.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Hilltopmom

[wendyroo]

2 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

This is sort of an aside, but I’ve beenlooking into jobs in my area that can be obtained without a high school diploma.

Im in NY where there is no special Ed diploma- if you can’t pass all the classes you don’t get a diploma.

Dish washer or laundry or kitchen help  at the nursing home? Need diploma or GED to apply.

Mop floors at hospital? Diploma or GED

nurses aide? Diploma or GED

daycare classroom aide? Diploma or GED

factory floor worker- diploma or GED

It’s not a pretty world out there for kids who can’t pass algebra. Especially for kids “not disabled  enough” to qualify for dev disability employment or stipend programs.

That is ridiculous, but I don't think things are always as they seem.

My dad ran a heating and cooling business for most of his adult life.  He was constantly looking for entry-level furnace mechanics.  He did require a high school diploma, but the vast majority of applicants, who did indeed have their diplomas, were functionally illiterate and lacked even basic arithmetic skills.  Before hiring someone my dad would give them a basic skills test.  He needed them to read at about a 3rd grade level (just well enough to comprehend repair manuals which are heavily illustrated) and be able to reliably add and subtract integers and money.  The one "hard" skill he required was adding halves and quarters; he needed mechanics who could add 23 1/2 inches and 14 1/4 inches and come up with a total length of 37 3/4.

Of each batch of applicants, again, all of whom had a high school diploma, my dad found no more than 25% could pass his test.

These were fairly good job opportunities he had available - safe, steady work, good hours, paid lunch time, health care and benefits, overtime opportunities, with an initial salary comparable to a nurses aide or kitchen help, but with quite a bit of room for advancement.  His senior mechanics were earning above the median income for the area. 

I doubt any of the applicants my dad rejected had any algebra skills, but that did not prevent them from getting a diploma, and that certainly wasn't what was losing them the job opportunity.

Wendy

[Jean in Newcastle]

I was hired by a national company at one time to get some employees to where they could pass a basic math test that went through pre-algebra.  They might have hired other people for literacy skills but they did not approach me about that so I don't know for sure about that.   For this company, it did not include algebra skills as such but I know from the VP who hired me that they had significant problems because employees couldn't do their jobs adequately even on a factory floor and they had to institute this way to ensure that standards were met because a high school diploma ultimately didn't mean that they could meet the standard.  Employees who didn't meet the standard after attending classes were fired.  I know that because one of my students got so close but then didn't pass and lost her job.  All other students passed and kept their jobs.  I was only hired and paid by the company to teach those students who didn't pass the test the first time.  I was given three months to get them up to snuff and then they were given a similar test to see if they passed. I presume that subsequent hires had to pass the test to begin with. 

[Farrar]

Every school system that I've worked in or am familiar with has a super slow, pretty watered down algebra class that kids who have LD's can usually pass. I would think that if a student had documentable dyscalculia to the extent that they couldn't pass that, it would be a violation of IDEA to not allow them some path to a high school diploma. I'll also point out that there isn't really algebra on the GED, though it does contain pre-algebra topics like exponents.

Not having an honors/college bound and a "regular" diploma path does all kids a disservice, whether algebra is required specifically on either or not.

[Sherry in OH]

8 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

 

The only reason I didn't take math every year of high school was the school ran out of courses to offer and my parents could not afford for me to go to the local college. I did end up with 4 years of math (I took Geometry in summer school) -- so maybe that would count?  It did hurt me though.

The problem is schools are not offering enough math courses.  I have encountered several students whose senior year in high school was an English class, an elective, and study hall.  The student needed the English class to graduate, the elective to have enough classes to qualify to play sports, and study hall because the student had fulfilled all other graduation requirements.  The school district felt that as long as state minimum requirements were met, it was under no obligation to provide additional classes for its high performing students.

3 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

This is sort of an aside, but I’ve beenlooking into jobs in my area that can be obtained without a high school diploma.

Im in NY where there is no special Ed diploma- if you can’t pass all the classes you don’t get a diploma.

Dish washer or laundry or kitchen help  at the nursing home? Need diploma or GED to apply.

Mop floors at hospital? Diploma or GED

nurses aide? Diploma or GED

daycare classroom aide? Diploma or GED

factory floor worker- diploma or GED

It’s not a pretty world out there for kids who can’t pass algebra. Especially for kids “not disabled  enough” to qualify for dev disability employment or stipend programs.

 

Students who have no algebra, geometry, or basic statistics would have a hard time with the GED exam.    Perhaps the minimum requirement for a general diploma should be enough math to pass the GED.

 

[Hilltopmom]

10 hours ago, Sherry in OH said:

The problem is schools are not offering enough math courses.  I have encountered several students whose senior year in high school was an English class, an elective, and study hall.  The student needed the English class to graduate, the elective to have enough classes to qualify to play sports, and study hall because the student had fulfilled all other graduation requirements.  The school district felt that as long as state minimum requirements were met, it was under no obligation to provide additional classes for its high performing students.

 

Students who have no algebra, geometry, or basic statistics would have a hard time with the GED exam.    Perhaps the minimum requirement for a general diploma should be enough math to pass the GED.

 

Right.

my point is that there really aren’t jobs anymore that don’t require a diploma or GED.

i mean do you really need a diploma to sweep floors or wash dishes, no. And if you can earn a diploma, why would you want to wash dishes for a meager living?

[homemommy83]

On 3/9/2019 at 5:14 AM, kiana said:

 

I want to comment on this specifically:

The college world is leaning more and more towards "corequisite remediation". In many states, colleges are being pushed or even legally forced to streamline or eliminate developmental mathematics in favor of placing students into college-level classes with the developmental material needed taught using "just-in-time remediation". This has a reasonable chance of working for people who took four years of HS math and just forgot it, but someone who has never learned it in the first place has virtually zero chance of success in this system.

I have pretty strong personal opinions about this, but none of that is going to change the way the climate in *general* is moving. I'm in a "streamlined" state right now, and I had several students last semester/this semester saying "Why does it have to be so FAST? Why can't we take this over two semesters?" All I could tell them is to write their state legislators and tell them how pissed off they were that there can't even be an OPTIONAL slow track. p.s. I have absolutely no problem with mandating that there has to be a "fast track" and I don't even have a problem with making it the default. I just have a major problem with not providing even a single section of a slower track. 

At my last job, we had one, three-credit developmental course before students got into college algebra. It got into algebra in the first week and ended with quadratic equations. I had several bright, articulate, intelligent, and quite lovely students who were all from the same unschooling group and had literally never seen a variable before. They did fine in all of their humanities courses and struggled in their science classes, and many of them ended up dropping out before graduation because the math requirement was insurmountable. 

One of them was in my developmental math class two semesters in a row and then finally scraped a C in the third semester with someone else, only to then not pass college algebra on the first attempt. He was unusually persistent ... because he wanted to go to medical school. I feel so bad for him, because F, D, C in developmental math and then F, D, C in college algebra is never going to get him there 😞 

I guess I must really misunderstand their unschooling mentality, as I was under the understanding that unschooling didn't limit a child's education, but instead taught them and focused on their interest and if they had goals the parent helped them reach them by giving them resources. 

I am a math lover and require Algebra 1, 2, and Geometry....and more importantly Finance before graduation, but if any of my kiddos desired a STEM career I would push further mathematics and science studies.  I am only requiring my kiddos do Health with Human Anatomy and Physiology, Physical Science, Biology, and a very basic Chemistry....but hope they go further as their interest lies.

I cannot understand not requiring a simple basic framework for English, Maths, and Sciences....and then allowing them to explore, intern, or apprentice in whatever they are most interested in.  It makes me incredibly sad to hear about the unschooled kiddos really being nonschooled😢.

 

Brenda

[homemommy83]

5 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

To be honest, I have a hard time imagining exactly how one does unschool in a way that winds up making it easy for kids to reach their goals.

Let me illustrate with my daughter, who is 6.5. She's very good at math (everything comes easy) but not particularly interested. On the other hand, she's a very natural engineer and scientist. She spends tons of times building things out of LEGOs, building contraptions out of paper, tape and cardboard, and generally creating things. She's also extremely curious about how things work. 

I think that given her natural talents and interests, it would be a complete shame if she didn't get a very sound mathematical education that would later enable her to do what I think she'll want to (I could be wrong, of course. Just a guess from observation.) However, as I said... she's not asking to do math. If I were a radical unschooler, I'd probable help build things but teach her almost no math. And while she's extremely bright, I do think mathematical habits need to be trained. I know some kids catch up if they start, but it's a much harder slog. 

Which is why, I think, a lot of people on this forum are so insistent on math and reading and writing, even if they have some sympathy with the unschooling movement. I have a LOT more unstructured time in a day than a classical education, for example, would require. But I think that these skills are so essential that it would be wrong not to focus on them... 

I agree in teaching solid basics😉 as well no matter what they want to go into.   I guess I thought unschoolers looked at what their children want to do with their lives and set up objectives and goals to reach it and then provided materials and tutoring necessary-but may spend a lot more time on those things than others....but I think this is what I want to think it is....as it seems I have seen a lot of those saying they are unschooling which just means free range to do whatever they want without help in reaching those goals.  That makes me sad as the kids are missing out on so much that would allow them to reach their personal goals.

 

Brenda

[lewelma]

Ah, unschooling.

I was an unschooler, and perhaps I still am. It was when my older son *invented* algebra at the age of 6 that I had to change my plans and move beyond playing shop. 

I have written before about the difference between unschooling and not-schooling. There is a difference no matter what people say. 

[RenaInTexas]

I think more people use algebra and algebraic thinking than they realize. Since they had to learn it, it became part of their intuition and in the areas that they have to use it, it is so intuitive at this point that they don't even think about it as such. Get math out of the -its a problem involving numbers and symbols that you work out on paper or mentally- box. I have entire math books that don't have a number in them or don't require one calculation to do a problem. The better a person is in Algebra, the better they would be able to handle such problems that require analytical/logical reasoning and critical thinking - without doing one calculation. Most adults use this type of thinking and reasoning every single day, especially when making a major decision. Arithmetic only requires a calculator, but Algebra requires coming up with the problem to solve - becoming a problem solver. Adults problem solve every day; no one is presented with a math problem. They are presented with known information and unknown information and they have to figure out how to organize the known information to figure out the unknown: algebra. BTW: none of this information has to involve numbers or symbols. Algebraic thinking is not just about numbers.

When I went for my first jobs with my degree in Math, I could apply anywhere I wanted. I went on 3 interviews and was offered 3 jobs. Each person told me, if you can learn math, I can teach you anything. They understood that math wasn't just about numbers.

I think a lot of the requirements to have a GED to sweep floors has to do with competition (they would lower the requirements if they had trouble filling those jobs or they would up the pay to get the people they want)  or its because employers feel that the effort to get a GED or diploma shows something about your character that makes you an attractive employee. Perhaps they went through a period where they hired high school dropouts and it was a disaster because of employee quality. I say this from experience because I was involved with a decision to move a company because of the quality of the workforce available (read: high school dropouts) and all they had to do was factory work. They weren't very teachable and struggled with effort. 

But I am on the fence about Algebra being required. To me, you are actually asking should society conform to education or should education conform to society. If it is the latter than Algebra must be required. Our workforce needs to be able to think at that level or we will keep importing it. We stop requiring Algebra and we may end up importing more employees. If it is the former than the question is: should certain jobs require a diploma? I think the competition for those jobs have and will make that decision because there is no law saying that you must require a GED for this job. The companies decided to require it based on the workforce available to them. If you have a company and you get applicants with and without a GED/diplmoa, who would you hire - all other equal? Competition is making that decision and I think competition should continue to make that decision. 

A GED is not a death sentence. Many use the GED to go to community college to learn a trade or get an associates. So if someone stops at a GED, that was their circumstances or their choosing. 

Another angle to this question is: are students having trouble passing the Algebra course or a state Algebra end of course exam? In my state, it is the exam. Perhaps the exam needs to be looked at. The state exam has done more to ruin mathematics education than anything. Teaching to pass a math test and teaching math can be very different. So I say get rid of the exam and let colleges and society decide if they know enough math to succeed there. Then teachers can teach the students and not the test. At the very least the test should be much easier -like basic algebra not advanced topics like synthetic division. 

So passing an Algebra course really only requires that you know basic algebra well (the 1st half of the book) and you treaded water through the more advanced polynomial stuff (2nd half). The first part is mostly a review of middle school math. So yes, you should have to pass Algebra for the society we live in. No, you should not have to pass an Algebra exam that focuses mostly on the 2nd - more advanced part of Algebra.

Sorry I rambled some.

[homemommy83]

On 3/13/2019 at 8:06 AM, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, which comes back to what I was saying upthread. Yes, I think everyone should learn algebra. But even more importantly, everyone should be solid with arithmetic so they are prepared for algebra. 

I can you that maybe half of college freshmen in calculus classes I’ve taught can add fractions, and I mean numerical fractions, not ones with variables. I don’t care what diploma they got: that’s totally unacceptable.

I have found the exact same thing when I tutor High School math students, that arithmetic especially fractions, eecimals, and percentages are very weak.  Our schools in the area are pushing algebra and geometry into elementary and middle school, but arithmetic isn't strong at all.

Brenda

[homemommy83]

8 hours ago, lewelma said:

Ah, unschooling.

I was an unschooler, and perhaps I still am. It was when my older son *invented* algebra at the age of 6 that I had to change my plans and move beyond playing shop. 

I have written before about the difference between unschooling and not-schooling. There is a difference no matter what people say. 

I agree that there should be a difference between unschooling and nonschooling.  What I wonder is whether nonschoolers are claiming the unschooling label or are people labeling nonschoolers unschoolers...kinda like our area public school that wants to label dropouts as homeschoolers....when they have no plans to homeschool at all.

Brenda

[Farrar]

There is an attitude I've seen from some well-meaning unschoolers that "if they want to learn it, they'll figure it out." So it's not that they're actively putting up barriers to their kids learning maths, it's that they aren't facilitating it because they believe that doing so would somehow interfere with their kid's ability to discover it and learn it on their own. The problems with this are relatively obvious... kids can't learn things that they don't even know exist, for one thing. I know many, many unschoolers who absolutely do facilitate learning - they just do it in partnership, by strewing and offering opportunities instead of insisting on specific things, and by waiting for the kid to ask and actively want help.

 

[shinyhappypeople]

On 3/12/2019 at 2:02 PM, Hilltopmom said:

This is sort of an aside, but I’ve beenlooking into jobs in my area that can be obtained without a high school diploma.

Im in NY where there is no special Ed diploma- if you can’t pass all the classes you don’t get a diploma.

Dish washer or laundry or kitchen help  at the nursing home? Need diploma or GED to apply.

Mop floors at hospital? Diploma or GED

nurses aide? Diploma or GED

daycare classroom aide? Diploma or GED

factory floor worker- diploma or GED

It’s not a pretty world out there for kids who can’t pass algebra. Especially for kids “not disabled  enough” to qualify for dev disability employment or stipend programs.

 

That's awful. What a stupid hill for the Dept of Ed to die on.  No wonder John Taylor Gatto was disgusted by the whole system.  If we lived in New York, I'd have to have my daughter get her diploma through Beach High School or another organization like that.