Grandma in the tub with littles

[Bluegoat]

You're right. Maybe the 4 year old is washing herself, while the Grandma washes herself. I jumped to a conclusion.

 

I still think it's icky though.

 

I'm not quite sure I understand why the touching is a problem any more than seeing someone naked is.

 

Do people really think that all touch if you have your clothes off is sexual?

 

I think a lot of four year olds need some help with washing still.

[Guest]

I don't see any problem with that, as long as the child is not uncomfortable.

Why is this supposed to be a big deal? What's the hangup with nakedness in a situation where being naked is perfectly appropriate, i.e. in the bathtub?

Because bathing with another person is considered by most in this culture as highly intimate, just as sharing a bed with another person and being within someone else's personal space while naked is.

 

If I'm in a gym locker room and there are other women and girls around me in various states of undress = normal. No big deal. Eyes on your own plate. But if I go sit my naked butt down on the bench in the locker room right next to another woman putting her bra on = not normal. If she's polite, she'll probably give me the stink eye and move away. If she has no filter, she'll ask me what the f*%#@ I think I'm doing.

 

What people might do in another culture is immaterial, unless the OPs MIL is from a different culture. And in any case, grandma's reaction is concerning and the fact that she just considered this some activity on par with baking cookies or doing a puzzle increases the weirdness of it.

[Sneezyone]

Because it is quite normal for a sane-gender *parent* to bathe with a child, I can see how that could seem (to a grandparent) to be a 'normal way that you take care of kids'. I can see why a request to stop bathing a grandchild 'the normal way' might raise her feelings momentarily around "Why not? I'm not going to harm her!"

 

So, I think I could forgive both the mistake and the outburst -- but not a continuation of the activity if it makes you uncomfortable. If you are uncomfortable, it stops.

 

For the record, my kids' grandmother showered with them (unclothed) in the context of after swimming in a locker room, and/or during camping trips, until they were ten-or-so... just to wash their hair when I wasn't there to do it. I never got a sense that it was icky or inappropriate.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure my mom took both peeps to the showers after a pool day when they were pre-K, 2nd grade-ish to change, etc. #unbothered.

[Pen]

adding: It isn't just background like is the person Japanese or so on.  

 

Where I now live is an old house from depression era, where I am pretty sure from stories told, it was the common way of doing things for as many people to bathe together as possible, and to reuse the same bath water as many times as possible, starting with the cleanest people and working to the dirtiest, to conserve heating fuel, and water.  It was also only done once per week in general. So even in USA, things can be very different for rural vs. city, different eras, different socioeconomic groups.

 

 

And I'm not sure that it is a bad thing for a child to see a naked body that is not done up by plastic surgery, make up artists, and computer enhancement.  

 

It is of course a bad thing if granny is actually a pedophile

 

And doing what you have expressed you don't want behind your back is a problem

 

And I guess you and granny don't communicate well enough to talk about it and come to understand each other which is another problem

 

 

[bibiche]

But if I go sit my naked butt down on the bench in the locker room right next to another woman putting her bra on = not normal. If she's polite, she'll probably give me the stink eye and move away. If she has no filter, she'll ask me what the f*%#@ I think I'm doing.

 

Well yeah, because everyone knows you put your towel down on the bench before sitting on it with your naked butt! 

 

Americans do have weird issues regarding nudity, no question. Personally I find it a little unhealthy (the weird American issues, not the nudity), but whatever.

 

As for grandma, she is out of line because the parents asked her not to do something and she continues to do it.  The bathing thing is beside the point.

Edited October 9, 2017 by bibiche

[Bluegoat]

adding: It isn't just background like is the person Japanese or so on.  

 

Where I now live is an old house from depression era, where I am pretty sure from stories told, it was the common way of doing things for as many people to bathe together as possible, and to reuse the same bath water as many times as possible, starting with the cleanest people and working to the dirtiest, to conserve heating fuel, and water.  It was also only done once per week in general. So even in USA, things can be very different for rural vs. city, different eras, different socioeconomic groups.

 

 

And I'm not sure that it is a bad thing for a child to see a naked body that is not done up by plastic surgery, make up artists, and computer enhancement.  

 

It is of course a bad thing if granny is actually a pedophile

 

And doing what you have expressed you don't want behind your back is a problem

 

And I guess you and granny don't communicate well enough to talk about it and come to understand each other which is another problem

 

Yeah, this is just it - it seems a pretty new thing even in North America.  

 

I mean, my mom grew up in a house with five kids, two parents, and one bathroom.  There was a lot of people using the facilities together.  And in my great-grandmother's house, which I remember, people bathed in the kitchen.  

 

The really wealthy might have had more access to some privacy, but OTOH it wasn't unusual for the really wealthy to be washed by servants.

[Bluegoat]

Because bathing with another person is considered by most in this culture as highly intimate, just as sharing a bed with another person and being within someone else's personal space while naked is.

 

If I'm in a gym locker room and there are other women and girls around me in various states of undress = normal. No big deal. Eyes on your own plate. But if I go sit my naked butt down on the bench in the locker room right next to another woman putting her bra on = not normal. If she's polite, she'll probably give me the stink eye and move away. If she has no filter, she'll ask me what the f*%#@ I think I'm doing.

 

What people might do in another culture is immaterial, unless the OPs MIL is from a different culture. And in any case, grandma's reaction is concerning and the fact that she just considered this some activity on par with baking cookies or doing a puzzle increases the weirdness of it.

 

That would not have been odd when I was a kid. I remember women standing in front of the mirror drying their hair in the nude, chatting.

 

My dh tells me that this sort of thing still happens more in men's change rooms.  

[TravelingChris]

I don't see it as a question of nudity.  As a few people have mentioned before, most American bathtubs are small.  They are certainly not big enough to hold a normal sized adult and a 4 year old.  The odd timing, the extreme reaction and the disobeying of parental objections are all troubling.  Do I think it is molestation?  Probably not but it isn't a right thing to do.  I agree with others that supervised visitation is needed.  The MIL's judgement is lacking or she just likes doing things to annoy the parents.  Either way, any visitation should be supervised.  ANd the fact that FIL doesn't see a problem makes him not a reliable supervisor. 

 

As some others have said too, as a four year old, I wouldn't have wanted someone to get in a tub with me.

[SKL]

Yeah, we had 8 people and 1 bathroom, but my parents did not bathe with me.  We children did share baths up to a certain age.

 

What people do when they have fewer bathrooms / less water etc. is bathe children less frequently - they don't have impromptu baths with their grandchildren at all hours of the day.

 

OK now that I think of it, I wonder if this is a case of Granny needed a bath and didn't know where else to put the kid during that time?  Still - preschoolers can play outside of arm's reach.  Unless the child herself asked to climb into the tub, but even then, I would try to talk the kid out of it and say "you can have your bath after mine."  And at the least, it sounds like bad planning.  I don't take baths when I'm babysitting other people's four-year-olds.

[Janie Grace]

No no no no no. Many narcissists have inappropriate boundaries like this. I'd be livid. (I'm the dd of a narcissist who did stuff like this all the time.)

[stephanier.1765]

Late to the topic but still blown away by a grandmother wanting to bathe with her grandchildren. Just wow. No way in hell.

[happi duck]

My kids didn't get watched by others very often.

 

However, I would have expected a request like "no baths" to be respected.

 

To me, respecting a simple request is the issue.

[StaceyinLA]

Well this is coming from a Granny who has bathed with all her grandkids at different times (my daughters' kids, and we've always kinda been like this - my kids always hung out with me in the bathroom when I was bathing to have pow-wows, and we still are very open - I should clarify that if my teenage son needed to talk, I DID close the shower curtain).

 

I wouldn't necessarily think anything was terribly wrong with it (though I'm pretty young for a granny and don't know that I'd still be bathing with toddlers/young children in my 70s), but the fact that she disrespects your wishes is a problem. Narcissist or no, you can't be undermined as a parent.

Edited October 9, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[nixpix5]

That is odd. I would offend her and tell her to stop.

 

I know in Korea and some other places this is normal and if it were cultural then I wouldn't be concerned but if it isn't due to different cultural expectations then hell no. I would offend her and draw a line.

[Sneezyone]

Well this is coming from a Granny who has bathed with all her grandkids at different times (my daughters' kids, and we've always kinda been like this - my kids always hung out with me in the bathroom when I was bathing to have pow-wows, and we still are very open - I should clarify that if my teenage son needed to talk, I DID close the shower curtain).

 

I wouldn't necessarily think anything was terribly wrong with it (though I'm pretty young for a granny and don't know that I'd still be bathing with toddlers/young children in my 70s), but the fact that she disrespects your wishes is a problem. Narcissist or no, you can't be undermined as a parent.

 

I think affinity, relationship and respect make a big difference. My mom was like a second mother to my kids when DH was deployed and I was working tons of overtime. She kept them for at least one night every week so I could rest. My peeps LOVED their time with 'Grandma Fun' and I credit those experiences with the close relationship they have today. Not sure how many pre-teens voluntarily FaceTime Grandma 2-3 days a week but mine do. LOL. That said, whenever I asked her to back off and give us space her feelings might be hurt but she respected my wishes and did her best to comply. I can't imagine her just ignoring my wishes and doing whatever the heck she wanted.

[Lady Florida.]

Well this is coming from a Granny who has bathed with all her grandkids at different times (my daughters' kids, and we've always kinda been like this - my kids always hung out with me in the bathroom when I was bathing to have pow-wows, and we still are very open - I should clarify that if my teenage son needed to talk, I DID close the shower curtain).

 

 

 

It sounds like you weren't asked not to by the parents, which is a big difference. It was accepted as part of your family culture and was not in any way untoward.

 

And I will confess I took showers with my niece when she was 7 years old. She had a weird home situation and no one taught her how to actually wash herself. So I got in the shower with her and we each bathed ourselves as I taught her, first you wash this part of you, then you do this, and lastly you rinse, etc. However, IIRC we took a total of maybe 3 or 4 showers together and once I was sure she knew what to do, I no longer joined her. I share that to say that there can be reasons why a non-parent adult would bathe/shower with a child. Still, if my brother or even her mom (they divorced when she was a baby) had asked me not to do that, I would have found another way to teach her what neither of her parents took the time to teach.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Trying to put a positive spin on this and understand it.  I think possibly this could be a fun activity.  Many kids like to play in the tub.  So maybe she sees it that way? 

 

(I'm REALLY trying here... :laugh: )

[KungFuPanda]

I'm on the side of the nudity and bathing a small child is fine. The fighting over it and insisting upon doing it anyway is the odd part. I do kind of want to know more of the story. Is this a grandma that the child visits occasionally or an on-call grandma that is relied upon for childcare frequently? I tend to think that grandparents who take a frequent, and regular caregiver role deserve more decision-making leeway. If your child is returned physically and mentally healthy AND happy then grandma has deserved more trust and maybe micromanaging her is not the way to go. Maybe she should have checked her emotions better, but it had to hurt to nearly be called a pedophile by her DIL. Did she raise the op's husband to be happy and well adjusted or is there damage there? If there's damage, why is the child left with the grandma repeatedly? Does the kid enjoy the bubble bath party? Is it possible she enjoyed it until the parents freaked out? Odds are, grandma did this with her kids and remembered it as a fun way to keep a small child entertained and in one place for more than a minute. At 70, climbing in HAS to feel better on your back than leaning over.

[LMD]

The nudity itself doesn't bother me so much, I bathe with my 4 year old pretty much every day. I could almost picture my in laws doing something like, everyone strips off under the outside shower after a fishing trip, or crossing paths to get in the bath next. The kids have walked around their house in underwear or less at older than 4. I have no reason to not trust them because they know our boundaries are rock solid and respect (if not agree with) them.

 

It's the get naked and in close physical contact with a naked adult, whenever the adult says so (ie, not regular bath time) and behind mom & dad's back. That is a dangerous thing to normalise imo. Did she tell your dd not to tell you about it after you asked her to stop? Because that would be my hill!

[Bootsie]

To quickly answer some questions... She didn't ask permission, she did it several times before we found out, and has done it at least twice since we asked her to stop.

 

She doesn't really watch DD at bath time (typically the times are around 1 - 7 pm, DD goes to bed at 8:30 and we usually bathe her at 8). The baths have just happened at random times in the afternoon.

 

Grandma doesn't come from a particular culture where this is practiced, except that she's in her seventies and maybe that was done when she was a kid.

 

FIL doesn't think it's weird, but he's completely in MIL's corner on just about everything.

 

I think supervised visits are going to have to be a must. I was afraid my own history was making me too sensitive to this issue, but judging from the responses, it really is atypical behavior and her disregard for our wishes means we can't put our trust in her.

 

Although these may seem like random times to you, they may not be so random to grandma.  8 may not be bath time to her.  Almost anytime I can remember my grandmother bathing, it was in the middle of the afternoon; if it was too late in the day she was afraid that you would catch cold from having wet hair when you went to bed.  And, I can't remember her bathing first thing in the morning--she would be busy getting grandfather off to work, cleaning house, doing laundry, etc.  Our hours for bathing would have probably seemed odd to those who had no indoor plumbing or electricity. 

[OrganicJen]

To quickly answer some questions... She didn't ask permission, she did it several times before we found out, and has done it at least twice since we asked her to stop.

 

She doesn't really watch DD at bath time (typically the times are around 1 - 7 pm, DD goes to bed at 8:30 and we usually bathe her at 8). The baths have just happened at random times in the afternoon.

 

Grandma doesn't come from a particular culture where this is practiced, except that she's in her seventies and maybe that was done when she was a kid.

 

FIL doesn't think it's weird, but he's completely in MIL's corner on just about everything.

 

I think supervised visits are going to have to be a must. I was afraid my own history was making me too sensitive to this issue, but judging from the responses, it really is atypical behavior and her disregard for our wishes means we can't put our trust in her.

 

Wow the fact that she has continued it after you made your feelings clear is disturbing and I think you are right to supervise their visits.  I personally wouldn't have thought nudity/changing clothes with the child in the room would be a problem or even a shower depending on the situation, but the bath with grandma at that age would be a problem for me and then for her to not care what your opinion on the issue was at all and to just continue doing it would be a major problem for me.  Wow it seems like she has made it clear that she thinks it is her right to decide how your children are raised and not yours.  

Edited October 9, 2017 by OrganicJen

[Pen]

Wow the fact that she has continued it after you made your feelings clear is disturbing and I think you are right to supervise their visits.  I personally wouldn't have thought nudity/changing clothes with the child in the room would be a problem or even a shower depending on the situation, but the bath with grandma at that age would be a problem for me and then for her to not care what your opinion on the issue was at all and to just continue doing it would be a major problem for me.  Wow it seems like she has made it clear that she thinks it is her right to decide how your children are raised and not yours.  

 

I might have misread prior post, but it sounded like the grandma cares for the dc from roughly 1-7pm frequently.

 

It isn't clear to me if these are visits, or reliance on the grandma for childcare.  Or if it could be perceived as one thing by some of the people and another by others involved.

 

I might have misread prior post, but it sounded like the grandma cares for the dc from roughly 1-7pm frequently.

 

 

1-7pm could make the grandma the caregiver for nearly half the child's waking hours. I presume that she is not a paid caregiver. If this is true, I'd think she might very well feel she has some right to decide how the child is being cared for / raised. And de facto would be actually nearly half raising the child.  Otoh, it may be that it is not necessary in OP's life, that from her POV it is just a visit and not especially helpful, and she is perfectly able to take care of her dd 24/7 without help from the grandma or able to hire outside help as needed.

[LarlaB]

No no no no no. Many narcissists have inappropriate boundaries like this. I'd be livid. (I'm the dd of a narcissist who did stuff like this all the time.)

Agreed.

 

It's not so much about the bath (which I personally feel is out of normal bounds) but the fact that parents have asked for something NOT to happen and person intentionally and repeatedly does it anyway- with a smirk. That's the issue.

 

MIL is NPD and we've had similar situations where we enacted reasonable, normalized boundaries and she went a wee bit off the rails....which in hindsight speaks volumes but at the time caused me to second guess my instincts and decision making abilities.

 

People who are entrusted with care of my kiddos have to earn that trust. Period

[Seasider]

To quickly answer some questions... She didn't ask permission, she did it several times before we found out, and has done it at least twice since we asked her to stop.

 

She doesn't really watch DD at bath time (typically the times are around 1 - 7 pm, DD goes to bed at 8:30 and we usually bathe her at 8). The baths have just happened at random times in the afternoon.

 

Grandma doesn't come from a particular culture where this is practiced, except that she's in her seventies and maybe that was done when she was a kid.

 

FIL doesn't think it's weird, but he's completely in MIL's corner on just about everything.

 

I think supervised visits are going to have to be a must. I was afraid my own history was making me too sensitive to this issue, but judging from the responses, it really is atypical behavior and her disregard for our wishes means we can't put our trust in her.

Random afternoon tandem bathing, continuing after you've asked for it to stop? Problem.

 

No more unsupervised time. Afternoon visits with Grandma are supposed to be for baking cookies, learning to crochet or enjoying tea and a good read aloud. Or the younger one (when a bit older than 4) helping out to serve an aging adult. Not for naked water escapades. Something definitely off about this situation.

[Seasider]

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were normal bathtime and Gma was doing it as a way of accomplishing bathtime. But the randomness of it seems weird - unless it were super hot and it was a way to cool down. And of course, she's ignored the parents asking her to stop.

 

My biggest problem with it in general is that Gma is 70 and you said had health issues. Which I would suppose would make falls something to watch out for. What happens if she slips while getting into the bath? What if she falls on top of the 4 year old? What if the 4 year old is fine but can't help Gma or doesn't know how to summon help?

Could this actually be it - grandma is afraid of falling and waits to wash herself when there's someone she can instruct to get a phone (maybe even call 911), should she fall in the bathroom?

 

Having this need covered by a child's presence may seem irrational, but it might be something done by a person who fears giving upnher independence - if her adult children suspect she's becoming less capable of living alone safely.

 

Just musing.

[OrganicJen]

I might have misread prior post, but it sounded like the grandma cares for the dc from roughly 1-7pm frequently.

 

It isn't clear to me if these are visits, or reliance on the grandma for childcare.  Or if it could be perceived as one thing by some of the people and another by others involved.

 

I might have misread prior post, but it sounded like the grandma cares for the dc from roughly 1-7pm frequently.

 

 

1-7pm could make the grandma the caregiver for nearly half the child's waking hours. I presume that she is not a paid caregiver. If this is true, I'd think she might very well feel she has some right to decide how the child is being cared for / raised. And de facto would be actually nearly half raising the child.  Otoh, it may be that it is not necessary in OP's life, that from her POV it is just a visit and not especially helpful, and she is perfectly able to take care of her dd 24/7 without help from the grandma or able to hire outside help as needed.

 

You have an interesting perspective.  I know where I live the law does not give caregivers, whether paid or unpaid, the right to decide how a child is raised and to go against the parent's wishes unless the child is in some kind of danger etc.  I think her doing it in the first place was likely just her doing what made sense to her while the child was under her care, but to then defy the mom on the issue after the mom made it clear she was not okay with it... I just don't think falls under something that is her right because she is caring for the child too, whether paid or unpaid.  

[OrganicJen]

Random afternoon tandem bathing, continuing after you've asked for it to stop? Problem.

 

No more unsupervised time. Afternoon visits with Grandma are supposed to be for baking cookies, learning to crochet or enjoying tea and a good read aloud. Or the younger one (when a bit older than 4) helping out to serve an aging adult. Not for naked water escapades. Something definitely off about this situation.

 

Awwww...you just made me think back to my time spent with my grandmother learning to knit and crochet :).

[Epicurean]

It's hard to respond to everyone individually, but I do want to clarify that she's not a regular caregiver. We come see the grandparents every two or three weeks or so on the weekends. We usually drop her off with them during that timeframe once or maybe twice that weekend we're visiting.

 

To be honest, we probably should have done supervised visits long ago, but she does this outrageous, over the top routine where she tries to prove to everyone in the room that she loves DD the most. If you've ever seen a narcissist with a golden grandchild, you know what I mean. It's so insufferable that we gradually found excuses not to be around her when she has DD. Now I'm thinking we probably chose the path of least resistance at the expense of DD. Live and learn I guess.

[Tanaqui]

Honestly? Given that last update, not only would I eliminate unsupervised visits but I'd start gradually tapering off all visits. Move to visiting once a month, then cut your visits down until they're a shorter length, then move to visiting every six weeks, then every two months.

 

I find that description vaguely nauseating, and even worse than the original part about her throwing a tantrum at what is a reasonable request and then deliberately overriding your wishes.

[Dazguti]

I would NEVER be ok with any adult wanting to bathe with my 4 year old, under any circumstances. There is just NO reason, and no excuse could justify it in my mind.

 

 

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[Sandwalker]

It is the taboos that are a cultural construct, not their non-existence. Nudity does not have inherent moral connotations unless humans choose to construct them.

I am still not understanding the reasoning (or belief) behind it.

Because children are vulnerable, some adults are sickos, and the sickos want to be naked with children.

 

ETA: where is dh in all this? It may be easier for all if he sets the guidelines, as it's his mother.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Sandwalker

[Sandwalker]

Thanks for clearing it up a bit. My mom and mil are in their 70s and both of then bathed with their small kids. We all agree thats normal, but I know neither of them would do this with grandkids..

 

Sorry Im hung up on this post. Just when I think Im dealing with crazies.

Please go back and edit your post, OP didn't want details quoted.<3

[KungFuPanda]

Could this actually be it - grandma is afraid of falling and waits to wash herself when there's someone she can instruct to get a phone (maybe even call 911), should she fall in the bathroom?

Having this need covered by a child's presence may seem irrational, but it might be something done by a person who fears giving upnher independence - if her adult children suspect she's becoming less capable of living alone safely.

Just musing.

OR the kid is there during Grandma's normal bath time and she's too tired when kid leaves, or too set in her ways to change her bath time. It's safer to keep kid where she can see her than it is to bathe without her.

[Pen]

with regard to your most recent post... not wanting to quote it though

 

 

supervise or head toward terminating visiting.  I didn't realize you already knew her to be a person with Ncsm.  I was thinking relatively nice granny who you trust to take care of your dd many days.  Leaving your dd unsupervised around someone with Ncsm seems like a poor idea quite aside from the baths.

[luuknam]

the fact that she just considered this some activity on par with baking cookies or doing a puzzle increases the weirdness of it.

 

 

Unless she is from another (sub)culture. 

 

I just Googled this stuff in Dutch. Some people think it's odd for grandparents to be in the bathtub with kids, or kids older than about 2, and others don't. Generally, they're okay with parents being in the bathtub with kids until parent or child doesn't want to anymore... I saw age 10 pop up fairly often. Daily baths are weird (seriously, how dirty do you get in a day?), but it's a great activity on par with baking cookies or doing a puzzle... who doesn't like to splash in water (with bubbles)? But, that's also more fun if you're not completely alone, plus, it's super wasteful to fill a bathtub just for one person. (Dutch bathtubs are generally maybe a foot longer than American bathtubs (so not huge or anything), maybe because the Dutch are so tall, but since we're a height challenged family, I remember being in the bathtub with my mom and my younger brother when I was maybe 8 and he was 6, and yeah, that was pushing the limit of crowdedness, but, (grand)parent and a 4yo really isn't crowded). Personally, I've never been in the bathtub with my grandparents (afaik), but they didn't have a bathtub, so, that would've seriously reduced the odds.

 

That said, while my mom has been in the bathtub with my kids, I think only when they were about 2 and younger. And I'd feel weird if MIL got into the bathtub naked with the kids, because she's American, she didn't do that with DW when she was a kid, and yet, when DW was a teen, she made DW give her foot and neck massages that left DW feeling icky. So, no to that. 

 

Wrt OP, I agree with (some of) the others that it's not the initial baths that are weird, per se, but rather everything else. 

[OneStepAtATime]

As others have mentioned, the issue here is more complex than whether Granny should be bathing with her granddaughter. 

 

The biggest issue here is that Granny has been told NOT to bath with the child and yet she continues to do so, and at random times during the day, NOT when the child would normally take her bath.  I don't know why Granny felt she needed to bathe this child in the first place, and frequently, possibly nearly every time she visits, and not at her normal bath time, but perhaps there is a very innocent reason for it.  Who knows?  Without her actions being recorded and an ability to sit inside Granny's head to hear her thoughts, I doubt anyone will ever truly know why this is happening.  But not only is this potentially odd behavior occurring, now that the parents have asked Granny not to and Granny continues to do so, that changes the situation.  She is proving she can do what she wants with this child and the parents have no control over what happens to their child when that child is at Granny's house.  That is deeply concerning to me.  Granny has boundary issues.  

 

Since OP has stated that Granny is a narcissist, and Granny quickly escalates ANY challenge to her choices, I would ONLY be allowing very carefully supervised visits and they would be pretty short.

 

Hugs OP.  

[Pen]

You have an interesting perspective.  I know where I live the law does not give caregivers, whether paid or unpaid, the right to decide how a child is raised and to go against the parent's wishes unless the child is in some kind of danger etc.  I think her doing it in the first place was likely just her doing what made sense to her while the child was under her care, but to then defy the mom on the issue after the mom made it clear she was not okay with it... I just don't think falls under something that is her right because she is caring for the child too, whether paid or unpaid.  

 

 

 I did not think it was right for the grandma to defy the mom (as I had put in a prior post), but was trying to see it from a possible other perspective.  

 

The reality  of a mom leaving a 4yo with someone (relative or not, paid or not) whom the mom does not trust and thinks is mentally ill, well,....that  had not crossed my mind, and is worrisome, but I guess that OP is ready to stop that now.  I guess control of others is part of the narcissists way of operating in the world, and it is probably lucky that probably nothing totally terrible happened.  Once knowing that the MIL is a narcissist and not a trusted person, anything is possible.  And more may have already happened than just a bath together either physically or emotionally.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I find the latest post to be more troubling because she is trying to demonstrate that "she loves Dd the most". Couple that with doing something very intimate with her (notice that I did not say sexual) and it takes on a significance that I find troubling.

 

 

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[Guinevere]

I find this whole thing inappropriate. If the child unexpectedly needed a bath, and was upset about it for some reason, I can see myself wearing a bathing suit for a quick shower with them, but certainly not naked, and not sitting in the tub! I also would encourage the child to wash themselves, and would hurry the whole thing along. I've never had to take it to that level, tbough, just was trying to give some benefit of the doubt.

 

I don't think other people should bathe other people's children unless it is truly necessary, like a major bathroom or vomiting incident. I think it's pretty weird that granny has picked this dd to be so special, and has started naked hang out sessions with her.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Guinevere

[Ausmumof3]

Yep with the added posts I think you are going to have to only do visits when you are there. Especially as DH also doesn't stand up to her. That sucks. My kids adore my Mil and she is not npd but there are times I haven't left them with her because she's quite fragile and it's not always best for both. She had a messy upbringing where she ended up responsible for her siblings way too early in life.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ausmumof3

[Pen]

I would not want a known narcissist hanging out alone with my child in the first place.

[happypamama]

I find the latest post to be more troubling because she is trying to demonstrate that "she loves Dd the most". Couple that with doing something very intimate with her (notice that I did not say sexual) and it takes on a significance that I find troubling.

 

 

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That.