Big Duggar news

[Moxie]

Forgive me, I'm sick in bed so I've spent the day on the internet. I believe I've found the end.

 

I apologize for the Daily Mail link.

 

So, the big news?!? Now that Joy Anna is engaged, she and her fiancé are officially.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait for it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holding hands!

 

 

Joy-Anna Duggar moves relationship with Austin Forsyth to next level - Daily Mail

https://apple.news/AatQBS9_RQum3sYNxIBYT5Q

 

Such strange people.

 

What is it like to go from holding hands (which every 1st grader does) one day to making tea the next?? That has to mess with your head.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Moxie

[Xahm]

I always click on these Not sure why. I guess I'm always hoping one is going to Ga Tech against all odds or something.

[katilac]

Oh, the scandal! 

[Audrey]

Mais, non! Comment risqué!

[Χά�ων]

I am still wondering what, if anything, has come of the surveillance footage of someone who looks exactly like Josh, who was accussed tlof stealing personal items from a store employee.

[Catwoman]

I am still wondering what, if anything, has come of the surveillance footage of someone who looks exactly like Josh, who was accussed tlof stealing personal items from a store employee.

I never heard about that!

 

Edited to add -- Google was my friend and I found it. I can't stand Josh, but don't think he's the guy in the photo.

 

http://www.inquisitr.com/3993116/josh-duggar-viewers-compare-robbery-suspect-to-reality-star/

Edited March 4, 2017 by Catwoman

[Rebel Yell]

One of the photos of her seated shows her KNEES! Isn't that kinda scandalous for them?

 

(Not picking on her personally, just pondering on the recent "dress codes" topic and remembering how some dress codes specify that the 'naughty bits' have to remain hidden while standing, sitting, bending over, walking, breathing, blinking, etc... )

 

Edited to admit I do not watch the show so I have no idea where their line of modesty is

 

Nor do I care

Edited March 4, 2017 by Rebel Yell

[Frances]

What is it like to go from holding hands (which every 1st grader does) one day to making tea the next?? That has to mess with your head.

I just can't comprehend this. It seems like they miss out on so much by not having the physical aspect of the relationship also develop slowly as they get to know each other better during courtship and engagement. I also can't fathom my first kiss being on my wedding day in front of thousands of people. It all just seems so hyper sexually focused. It's one thing for a couple to make these types of decisions on their own when they are dating or courting. But to declare it to all of your family and friends (and the world in the case of the Duggars) just seems bizarre.

[Χά�ων]

I never heard about that!

 

Edited to add -- Google was my friend and I found it. I can't stand Josh, but don't think he's the guy in the photo.

 

http://www.inquisitr.com/3993116/josh-duggar-viewers-compare-robbery-suspect-to-reality-star/

I am not so convinced. Similar build, hairline and so on. It looks like him and given the locatioj, it would not be wise for them to follow up. I find it a bitvtelking that they took the picture down so fast.

[Arctic Bunny]

Being super unknowlegeable, forgive me. Will it be the guy's first kiss, too?

[happi duck]

That stuff is such a weird prideful contest.

 

I know people who didn't kiss until their wedding kiss and they're sooo proud and it's such a weird thing to be vocal about. Do your own thing but do we all need to hear about it?

 

It's like weird purity Olympics...

We didn't have sex!

Oh, yeah? Well we didn't kiss!

Amateurs! We didn't hold hands!

Etc.

[nansk]

Such strange people.

 

What is it like to go from holding hands (which every 1st grader does) one day to making tea the next?? That has to mess with your head.

Millions of Indians, whose marriages are arranged, go from no physical contact to being married. It doesn't mess with _their_ heads; it's the cultural norm.

[Catwoman]

I am not so convinced. Similar build, hairline and so on. It looks like him and given the locatioj, it would not be wise for them to follow up. I find it a bitvtelking that they took the picture down so fast.

I thought the guy looked stronger and heavier than Josh, but maybe Josh has put on weight since the last time I saw a picture of him.

 

The picture may have been taken down because the police caught the guy (and it wasn't Josh.)

 

I honestly have no idea.

[LucyStoner]

An engagement. So a new season of their show must be coming up?  Color me cynical but I think these weddings and pregnancy announcements are timed to maximize ratings.

[Crimson Wife]

An engagement. So a new season of their show must be coming up?  Color me cynical but I think these weddings and pregnancy announcements are timed to maximize ratings.

 

Given how much Michelle has delegated the raising of the younger kids to the older girls, I suspect the driving factor is a desire to escape from home. The only acceptable way for a Duggar daughter to leave is being married off. :(

 

[DawnM]

One of the photos of her seated shows her KNEES! Isn't that kinda scandalous for them?

 

(Not picking on her personally, just pondering on the recent "dress codes" topic and remembering how some dress codes specify that the 'naughty bits' have to remain hidden while standing, sitting, bending over, walking, breathing, blinking, etc... )

 

Edited to admit I do not watch the show so I have no idea where their line of modesty is

 

Nor do I care

 

 

TV fame has changed them.

 

They now wear make-up, cut their hair, wear tighter shirts, and yes, hold hands.

 

It is a slippery slope for sure.

[gardenmom5]

That stuff is such a weird prideful contest.

 

I know people who didn't kiss until their wedding kiss and they're sooo proud and it's such a weird thing to be vocal about. Do your own thing but do we all need to hear about it?

 

It's like weird purity Olympics...

We didn't have sex!

Oh, yeah? Well we didn't kiss!

Amateurs! We didn't hold hands!

Etc.

 

 

dh, bless him :glare: , has a rather warped sense of humor.  (military brat.)

 

"did I tell you about the first time I kissed my wife at the alter?"  before that, she wasn't my wife.    :tongue_smilie:   I ignore him.

 

one thing I have noticed about these groups - is the prurient interest  about other people.  blech.  it's not healthy.   but we've seen how JB and other males in these very patriarchal cults behave.  reminds me of a tom cat going around spraying.

[MercyA]

I'm happy for them and wish them all the best.

[HomeAgain]

May they have a life filled with love and adventure, and an ability to forge their own relationship away from well-meaning and over-involved parents.

[SparklyUnicorn]

that's hot

 

:laugh:

[Anne in CA]

Millions of Indians, whose marriages are arranged, go from no physical contact to being married. It doesn't mess with _their_ heads; it's the cultural norm.

I do think it is hard on these people, they just don't complain. Not complaining is the cultural norm.

[Annie G]

Given how much Michelle has delegated the raising of the younger kids to the older girls, I suspect the driving factor is a desire to escape from home. The only acceptable way for a Duggar daughter to leave is being married off. :(

 

Joy Anna was Jill's buddy so over on Free Jinger they're joking that three years ago Jill got married and now she'll be the mother of the bride to Joy Anna.   :lol:

 

And on the topic of going from hand holding to....well, everything...Jinger and Jeremy look totally at ease with that transition, at least based on their honeymoon episode. 

[bethben]

My dh and I intended our fist kiss to be at the altar because that is what we wanted.  We had a few slip ups along the way, but every time we got together did not involve kissing (or other things).  We have never had problems in that area and are still going strong after 22 years of marriage.  I don't think it odd that people choose this.  Now, to announce it to everyone that this is the couples first kiss at the altar is a little strange.  There are plenty of people who try to follow what the Duggars are doing because of various reasons.  As a pp mentioned, there are people all over the world who do this and it doesn't make them demented or repressed.  

[maize]

I also don't think not kissing before marriage would have to be some big stumbling block to a happy honeymoon or healthy marriage relationship. Dh and I kissed but didn't even come close to anything more than that before marriage. He (though not I :blushing:) had never even kissed anyone else. And he didn't kiss me until we were practically engaged. I don't see why drawing the line at a somewhat different point in physical interactions prior to marriage would be problematic.

 

I realize there's a lot more going on with control and restrictions in the Duggar's religion, but making a big deal out of no kiss before the altar seems unnecessarily judgmental. Has anyone researched whether kissing before marriage makes for a better marriage or are folks just making assumptions?

Edited March 5, 2017 by maize

[HomeAgain]

My dh and I intended our fist kiss to be at the altar because that is what we wanted.  We had a few slip ups along the way, but every time we got together did not involve kissing (or other things).  We have never had problems in that area and are still going strong after 22 years of marriage.  I don't think it odd that people choose this.  Now, to announce it to everyone that this is the couples first kiss at the altar is a little strange.  There are plenty of people who try to follow what the Duggars are doing because of various reasons.  As a pp mentioned, there are people all over the world who do this and it doesn't make them demented or repressed.  

 

I think the key here is that it is what you wanted.  It was not a cultural expectation or pressure.

 

The Duggars seem to have interesting courtship practices.  I'm not sure my husband would have enjoyed filling out a 30-50page questionnaire for my father to see if he was allowed to have a relationship with me if it was something we both wanted.  And I'm not sure I would have enjoyed ceding control of my own well being to joint decisions made by my fiance and father.  

 

I wish them happiness.  It is what people deserve in this world.  How they get there might be a long journey or a short one, depending on the time they have to grow into these new roles.

[maize]

I think the key here is that it is what you wanted. It was not a cultural expectation or pressure.

 

 

But many people who remain sexually celibate before marriage do so because of cultural and religious expectations. Is this automatically a problem as well?

Edited March 5, 2017 by maize

[umsami]

An engagement. So a new season of their show must be coming up?  Color me cynical but I think these weddings and pregnancy announcements are timed to maximize ratings.

 

I read somewhere that she's their last marriageable daughter for a few years...so that could (praying) kill the show.

 

Other than Josh, I don't believe any Duggar boys have gotten married.

 

 

ETA... in most traditional Muslim societies, the not being alone together would also be the norm.  However, it really depends.  Often times, there are double standards regarding men and women (but not always).  In some cultures, they have a ceremony involving the Qur'an which is kind of like an engagement, and that gives the couple more freedom alone.  

 

There is, though, a big problem (or has been) about just plain ignorance regarding sex, foreplay, etc.  These are things that are not spoken about at all in many Muslim homes.  It's not unusual for somebody to get told the mechanics of sex the day before they get married, etc.  Sigh.  As you can imagine, it can lead to problems.   Of course these days, with the heavy p*rn problem in Muslim countries, I'm pretty sure most of the guys have some ideas...but whether or not those are conducive to a healthy, happy relationship is another story.  

Edited March 5, 2017 by umsami

[HomeAgain]

But many people who remain sexually celebate before marriage do so because of cultural and religious expectations. Is this automatically a problem as well?

 

Not unless combined with a non-personal relationship in which you never see your intended one on one, but always in a group setting that does not allow you to get to know each other intimately.  (Mentally, not physically)

[maize]

Not unless combined with a non-personal relationship in which you never see your intended one on one, but always in a group setting that does not allow you to get to know each other intimately.  (Mentally, not physically)

 

It certainly does not feel ideal to me.

 

But I have also lived in a culture where arranged marriages are traditional. My gut instinct is that it is best to choose one's own marriage partner based on close interactions; but I'm not 100% sure that this is not just cultural expectation on my part and necessarily leads to a higher rate of successful and happy marriages. I've seen plenty of personal choice marriages crash and burn, and plenty of arranged marriages that work out quite well. 

[J-rap]

Why would it mess with your head if it's what you thoughtfully choose or it's your social norm?  As others have said, many people/cultures throughout the world do this.  I can think of a lot of other things that would mess with my head in a relationship, but not that.  

 

 

[HomeAgain]

It certainly does not feel ideal to me.

 

But I have also lived in a culture where arranged marriages are traditional. My gut instinct is that it is best to choose one's own marriage partner based on close interactions; but I'm not 100% sure that this is not just cultural expectation on my part and necessarily leads to a higher rate of successful and happy marriages. I've seen plenty of personal choice marriages crash and burn, and plenty of arranged marriages that work out quite well. 

 

Slightly off topic, did you know that one of the 'failing' markers of an experiment with national basic income was that the divorce rate appeared to rise?  It was thought that a basic income would bring the downfall of the American family.

 

On the flip side, I wonder what it would be like if we gave people means to decide their own futures and not be tied into unhealthy relationships due to lack of education, choice, and financial hardship.

[maize]

Slightly off topic, did you know that one of the 'failing' markers of an experiment with national basic income was that the divorce rate appeared to rise?  It was thought that a basic income would bring the downfall of the American family.

 

On the flip side, I wonder what it would be like if we gave people means to decide their own futures and not be tied into unhealthy relationships due to lack of education, choice, and financial hardship.

 

It's an interesting question.

 

Social science research is incredibly messy--humans and human societies being extremely complex (begs the question of whether it is possible to ever really understand ourselves--maybe it takes an intellect superior to that of the species being studied in order to successfully analyse the behavior of that species?)

 

Changes of any sort tend to be destabilizing to a society/culture. Over time, a new equilibrium may be reached. Perhaps in the case of a guaranteed basic income marriages would initially destabilize as people (especially women and children) experienced more options and opportunities, but would eventually stabilize as new principles of relationship became established? Maybe, for example, with more incentive not to abuse spouse and children, people with an inclination to abuse would change their behavior? The effects a couple of generations down the road are what I would really want to know. Too bad we have no crystal ball...

Edited March 5, 2017 by maize

[Catwoman]

But many people who remain sexually celebate before marriage do so because of cultural and religious expectations. Is this automatically a problem as well?

If you think about it, how many people DON'T remain sexually celibate before marriage due to cultural and social expectations? I think that can be a problem as well, although people tend not to talk much about that.

 

I don't think I knew anyone who "waited for marriage," because there was a general feeling that sex before marriage was the norm. So I think the pressure can go in either direction depending on your personal circumstances, and I don't like the idea that some women feel dirty if they have sex before marriage while others are made to feel like prudes and freaks if they don't, and that men may be ridiculed for wanting to wait for marriage, as well. It's sad that people are pressured in either direction.

[Crimson Wife]

But many people who remain sexually celebate before marriage do so because of cultural and religious expectations. Is this automatically a problem as well?

There is a difference between having the opportunity to engage in physical intimacy but refraining from it and being isolated at home and not allowed even private phone conversations with the person courting you.

 

There is a lot to admire about independent adults voluntarily deciding to limit their physical contact prior to marriage but that is not what the Duggar girls are doing.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[maize]

There is a difference between having the opportunity to engage in physical intimacy but refraining from it and being isolated at home and not allowed even private phone conversations with the person courting you.

 

There is a lot to admire about independent adults voluntarily deciding to limit their physical contact prior to marriage but that is not what the Duggar girls are doing.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I will agree that someone else making all decisions for a mentally capable adult is a serious problem regardless of culture.

[Farrar]

Why would it mess with your head if it's what you thoughtfully choose or it's your social norm?  As others have said, many people/cultures throughout the world do this.  I can think of a lot of other things that would mess with my head in a relationship, but not that.  

 

Unless you're so isolated from the rest of the world that you're still in a very closed off society, I think you're going to end up with some very mixed messages and that's what makes it "mess with your head." Even in other countries. Umsami mentioned the p*rn problem in some Muslim countries, for example. Like, even if it's your social norm to abstain from all contact until a semi-arranged marriage, then you've still gotten messages about sex and romance and what it "should" be like. Except you usually have not gotten the other end of it - the practical advice and nitty gritty information that you need to help it be at all decent.

 

I suspect that centuries ago, most societies did a better job of sex ed. But that as education became more institutionalized and popular culture became more open and free, the reaction has been to shut off from talking about it at all and that sort of women sitting around in an all female space talking about things or being in such close quarters that sex is just happening in or being around home birth from a young age. We've separated these things out.

 

Of course, maybe it messed with people's heads back then too. I mean, "Young Goodman Brown" is 200 years old. And while it's obviously dripping in wacky metaphors, I can only assume Hawthorne was inspired by a real sense of disconnect that at least some young married people felt at the time.

[FaithManor]

There is a difference between having the opportunity to engage in physical intimacy but refraining from it and being isolated at home and not allowed even private phone conversations with the person courting you.

 

There is a lot to admire about independent adults voluntarily deciding to limit their physical contact prior to marriage but that is not what the Duggar girls are doing.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly. It is the entire concept of physicaly celibacy spilling over to being treated like little children, forced emotional celibacy because until they say I do they cannot even have a single private communication.

 

It may be observed in other cultures. It may be normal for that culture. It is not healthy and as we see so often in patriarchial paradigms, it is the female that tends to suffer the folly of such things as the pressure to marry the one daddy approves of is very high. The males seem to have a bit more personal agent in the situation as they are the initiators of the courtship and often do not suffet stigma for calling off the courtship, as two Duggar boys have done in the past.

[Mergath]

Why would it mess with your head if it's what you thoughtfully choose or it's your social norm?  As others have said, many people/cultures throughout the world do this.  I can think of a lot of other things that would mess with my head in a relationship, but not that.  

 

If both people choose it and are on the same page about how quickly the physical aspects of the relationship progress after the wedding, I'm sure it would be fine.

 

If, however, you're in a culture that expects you to wait until the altar for your first kiss and then allows your new husband to demand that you put out six hours later because he's your authority and you have to obey him, imo that's not far from rape. That could definitely cause some psychological issues.

[mamakelly]

I get their kids all mixed up. Who is married and who isn't?

[Crimson Wife]

I get their kids all mixed up. Who is married and who isn't?

 

The oldest daughter is single. Jana (?)

 

Josh, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger are married.

 

Josh had a failed courtship and one of the other boys had one as well.

 

[Crimson Wife]

If, however, you're in a culture that expects you to wait until the altar for your first kiss and then allows your new husband to demand that you put out six hours later because he's your authority and you have to obey him, imo that's not far from rape. That could definitely cause some psychological issues.

 

Unless she's so antsy from not being allowed any sort of even PG-rated making out that she can't wait for them to be alone. One of the girls was apparently caught AT THE CHURCH with her new hubby right after the ceremony before the reception. :smilielol5:

 

Just because a bride is a virgin does not mean that when she gives herself to her new husband it would be coerced. She could very well be all "FINALLY!"  :001_tt1: 

 

[mamakelly]

Oh that's right, Jana isn't married. I've read a few articles that claim that she probably will never get married and that she's been the designated daughter to take care of the parents in old age. Anyone else read that?

[FaithManor]

Oh that's right, Jana isn't married. I've read a few articles that claim that she probably will never get married and that she's been the designated daughter to take care of the parents in old age. Anyone else read that?

I have not read a statement from her or her parents to this effect. However it is the teaching of Bill Got hard that families with multiple daughters designate the eldest for this. A local got hard family has done this. They have three daughters and two sons. The eldest girl is allowed no privileges or outside access compared to the other four as she is required to remain at home forever with the eldest boy understanding that it is his responsibility to care for his maiden sister when mum and dad are gone.

 

The young lady, according to people who attend church with t he family, is very depressed, very under educated in order to keep her under their thumb. She took a beating at 17 for writing a letter to a boy in the youth group. The substance of the letter was curiosity. What is it like to drive a car or ride a bike or go to a friend's house or talk to other girls. Very sad, very sad.

[Mergath]

Unless she's so antsy from not being allowed any sort of even PG-rated making out that she can't wait for them to be alone. One of the girls was apparently caught AT THE CHURCH with her new hubby right after the ceremony before the reception. :smilielol5:

 

Just because a bride is a virgin does not mean that when she gives herself to her new husband it would be coerced. She could very well be all "FINALLY!"  :001_tt1: 

 

 

Well yes, obviously if the bride is all for it and ripping the groom's clothes off before they're out of the church, that's great and more power to her. ;)

 

But in a culture like the Duggars' that demonizes anything sexual, I'm sure there are at least a few women who aren't ready to go from first kiss to bow chicka wow wow in a matter of hours. I think it would be horrible to be put in a place where you're expected to be ready for sex so quickly after the initiation of the physical relationship and are also supposed to obey your husband, who's probably pretty horny at that point, given that a lot of these marriages happen at the age when the guy is in, shall we say, peak hormonal readiness.

 

I would hope the husband would be patient and willing to wait until his wife is ready, but from what I've seen of how women are treated in this culture I'm not holding my breath.

[Mergath]

I have not read a statement from her or her parents to this effect. However it is the teaching of Bill Got hard that families with multiple daughters designate the eldest for this. A local got hard family has done this. They have three daughters and two sons. The eldest girl is allowed no privileges or outside access compared to the other four as she is required to remain at home forever with the eldest boy understanding that it is his responsibility to care for his maiden sister when mum and dad are gone.

 

The young lady, according to people who attend church with t he family, is very depressed, very under educated in order to keep her under their thumb. She took a beating at 17 for writing a letter to a boy in the youth group. The substance of the letter was curiosity. What is it like to drive a car or ride a bike or go to a friend's house or talk to other girls. Very sad, very sad.

 

:crying:

 

[Frances]

Exactly. It is the entire concept of physicaly celibacy spilling over to being treated like little children, forced emotional celibacy because until they say I do they cannot even have a single private communication.

 

It may be observed in other cultures. It may be normal for that culture. It is not healthy and as we see so often in patriarchial paradigms, it is the female that tends to suffer the folly of such things as the pressure to marry the one daddy approves of is very high. The males seem to have a bit more personal agent in the situation as they are the initiators of the courtship and often do not suffet stigma for calling off the courtship, as two Duggar boys have done in the past.

Exactly. Plus add the fact that in some patriarchial cultures the women's virginity is so important that she can be killed if it is lost before marriage, even if she was raped.

[wonderchica]

Well yes, obviously if the bride is all for it and ripping the groom's clothes off before they're out of the church, that's great and more power to her. ;)

 

But in a culture like the Duggars' that demonizes anything sexual, I'm sure there are at least a few women who aren't ready to go from first kiss to bow chicka wow wow in a matter of hours. I think it would be horrible to be put in a place where you're expected to be ready for sex so quickly after the initiation of the physical relationship and are also supposed to obey your husband, who's probably pretty horny at that point, given that a lot of these marriages happen at the age when the guy is in, shall we say, peak hormonal readiness.

 

I would hope the husband would be patient and willing to wait until his wife is ready, but from what I've seen of how women are treated in this culture I'm not holding my breath.

Plus the elephant in the room, the fact that a few of the girls were molested as children. That can often have some impact on your sexual expression, especially if you are receiving mixed signals on sex in general as it seems the Duggars are. I am all for waiting until marriage, but I feel sorry for those girls.

[Guest]

I also don't think not kissing before marriage would have to be some big stumbling block to a happy honeymoon or healthy marriage relationship. Dh and I kissed but didn't even come close to anything more than that before marriage. He (though not I :blushing:) had never even kissed anyone else. And he didn't kiss me until we were practically engaged. I don't see why drawing the line at a somewhat different point in physical interactions prior to marriage would be problematic.

 

I realize there's a lot more going on with control and restrictions in the Duggar's religion, but making a big deal out of no kiss before the altar seems unnecessarily judgmental. Has anyone researched whether kissing before marriage makes for a better marriage or are folks just making assumptions?

No problems here either.

[ktgrok]

I think the problem is getting naked and such with someone you've never even had a single private conversation with. 

[FaithManor]

Plus the elephant in the room, the fact that a few of the girls were molested as children. That can often have some impact on your sexual expression, especially if you are receiving mixed signals on sex in general as it seems the Duggars are. I am all for waiting until marriage, but I feel sorry for those girls.

Yes.

 

It is a host of issues. No privacy. No unsupervised conversations. Women without agency - owned by the father until such time as he chooses to surrender his authority to a husband of  his choosing - sexual abuse, abuse counseling through "Journey of the Heart" which uses the gothard materials in which women are always the fault of all male sexual sin and must beg their abusers' forgiveness for being a harlot, a temptress, a Jezebel. And the abuser receives no professional help and is given access to the girls again, so that yup, you guessed it, it keeps happening. The gothard counseling also demands that the female admit her sin as a public confession to the house church, and beg the abuser for forgiveness in front of the congregants.

 

Children beaten into submission through Pearl blanket training techniques that Michelle readily admitted to using - includes whipping infants legs with rulers for crawling off the blanket and screaming at them so they are petrified of the parent - mother who posts her menstrual cycle on the refrigerator so the older kids can double check it, and remind their parents to have sex that night, being up to the older kids to make sure that dinner and all of the younger children are taken care of such that the parents can go to bed early to make sure sex happens,...

 

All of this taken together does not give one any confidence that these young adults are very emotionally or mentally healthy.

 

Add to that the timing that there is like clockwork a wedding every year for four straight years for the "reality" tv. show, it seems pretty darn suspicious.