What, to you, are racist actions?

[Tanaqui]

Racist actions range from the gross - white kids lean out of car, shout at my dh, "Get f***ed, ya black poofter!' - or it can be subtle - not getting an interview because of your name.

 

And while the first person knows what they're doing, the second might not. Consider the effect of blind auditions on orchestras. Suddenly, their minority and female numbers jumped dramatically. But clearly, the people in charge of hiring hadn't been trying to exclude PoCs and women! If they had, they would not even try blind auditions. They simply couldn't get past their internal biases.

 

It's hard to do blind hiring practices all up and down the board, but we could institute some measures - for example, having resumes have a private number instead of a visible name, having the first "interview" be an online chat - using computers in the office if the interviewer doesn't have their own PC - instead of live. (Phone conversations still reveal gender and dialect.)

[ebunny]

Claiming non white people cant be racist or all white people are racist or that white people act racist but can't see it.

 

This discussion has already taken a racist direction and it is racist to not see it.

 

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I feel you're getting too defensive for an informative/educational discussion like in this thread. No one in this thread has claimed that "all white people" are racists.

I completely agree that other races can be racist too. For what its worth, I've observed/faced as many instances of racism in SE Asia as in continental U.S.

 

Racism, xenophobia and prejudice are so closely tied its difficult to separate what is what. Humans find all sorts of ways to be cruel and unjust to each other so if its not discrimination on the color of the skin, it could be the language, the culture, the clothes, food....

 

Racism can occur anywhere in the world where more than 2 races exist. Since this board is predominantly American, that's where the discussions usually end up. But, racism takes place *anywhere or everywhere*. No country is free from it, unless that country is extremely racially homogeneous.

 

ETA: To me, racism is when a racially dominant section in a country marginalize the racial minorities through overt, casual or systemic displays of power.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Ebunny

[Janeway]

Racist actions range from the gross - white kids lean out of car, shout at my dh, "Get f***ed, ya black poofter!' - or it can be subtle - not getting an interview because of your name.

 

It would be impossible to give an exhaustive list of racist actions.

 

There is no such thing as racism against whites, aka reverse racism. People can be prejudiced against us when we are white; they may dislike us and even harm us, but their actions are not based on an historic and systemic racism towards us.

 

Are you actually telling someone who is a portion Irish, and a portion of white non-Christian, that no white people have ever had systemic or historic racism against them? What about Jewish people? Are you going to tell them the same thing? And someone who has both Catholic and Protestant and Atheist ancestors that there has never been any sort of systemic or historic racism? And since when does anything have to be "historic and systemic" to qualify as racism?

 

Websters is the final word on definitions. This is how racism is defined. You cannot just make up your own definitions. Making up your own definition to fit your racist agenda is not ok. To say it is not racist to attack one racial group is not ok. Get used to it. This is a multicultural, multiracial world.  Even the word biracial is going by the wayside for multiracial and you might as well get used to it and stop telling yourself that it is ok to attack any race at all based on race.

 

noun

1.

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the varioushuman racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement,usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has theright to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior tothe others.

2.

a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such adoctrine; discrimination.

3.

hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Janeway

[idnib]

Kicking somebody off of a plane for doing algebra (assuming it's Arabic).

 

But it is!  :sneaky2:

 

Can I piggyback a question here:

how does it feel to you if well meaning people approach you to express their support? The obviously single you out because of your hijab and treat you differently. I was wondering whether this is perceived uncomfortably as well. (And yes, I am aware that you are not the spokes person for all Muslim women....)

 

I don't wear a hijab but I have in the past at various times. My preference is for people to interact with me like they would anyone else, but if people approached me to express support, they always came with a sense of purpose and it made me nervous until I found out what they had to say. So I guess it was a relief to find they were going to say something positive.

 

 

So you should definitely not assume any random Muslim you haven't met personally is from some particular ethnic group or has certain customs or speaks  certain language. They vary as widely as anybody else.

 

Here in CA we have many Muslims of Mexican and Chinese descent.

 

Didn't read the responses yet but two things I have seen personally: wiping your hand on your pants after shaking the hand of a black person and readjusting your purse straps when a black person walks by. 

 

 

I remember a black guy I know saying that the sound of him walking down the street is the sound of car doors locking.

[marbel]

Nm.

Edited November 13, 2016 by marbel

[Tanaqui]

Janeway, this may surprise you, but when people on this board attempt to discuss structural racism and racial bigotry they aren't actually asking "How can I spend the next several hours appeasing Janeway?"

 

It would have been better if everybody here had had the sense not to engage with you when you started attempting to derail the conversation, as usual. But they didn't, so I'll say this directly - nobody is interested in listening to you talk, again, about how you think we're all the real racists. We know you feel that way. We don't need to be told it every time we want to have a conversation on this subject, and we shouldn't have to go to a different forum to have that conversation either. You're welcome to start your own thread. Don't poop all over this one.

 

Also - you can go write to Merriam Webster and they'll tell you exactly what I'm about to tell you. They are not "the final word on definitions". WE are. Their job is to record how WE speak, not to tell us what the right way to speak is.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Tanaqui

[mykidsrmyjoy]

Thank you for all your responses! It has given me much to think about. Thankfully, I have never witnessed some of the horrific instances of racism that some of you have described.

[hornblower]

Thank you for all your responses! It has given me much to think about. Thankfully, I have never witnessed some of the horrific instances of racism that some of you have described.

 

I'm tempted to edit your sentence & replace 'witnessed' with 'noticed'. I just can't believe it - unless you're living in one of those homogenous enclaves. And even then, you'd hear racist comments....

 

Unless maybe you live in a UU summer camp year round.... 

[mykidsrmyjoy]

 

I'm tempted to edit your sentence & replace 'witnessed' with 'noticed'. I just can't believe it - unless you're living in one of those homogenous enclaves. And even then, you'd hear racist comments....

 

Unless maybe you live in a UU summer camp year round....

I don't. :)

 

I have never witnessed anything like painted swastikas, hanging a black doll by a noose, etc. Are actions like that just more common in certain parts of the country?

[regentrude]

I have never witnessed anything like painted swastikas, hanging a black doll by a noose, etc. Are actions like that just more common in certain parts of the country?

 

Extreme actions like this have surged in numbers over the past few days.

But using racial slurs has been fairly wide spread.

[Garga]

For the past few summers I've had students from China, aged 13-17, stay with me for two weeks in the summer. We were shopping in a store and they were struggling to speak English to the cashier. This cashier was someone I knew in passing from church and I told her, "They're on vacation from China for a couple of weeks." She told them, "You're in America, so you need to speak English."

 

Um? Who learns an entire language for a 2 week vacation?

 

When I told my uncle about the visiting students, he pulled his eyes into slants.

[lauraw4321]

Because I'm white and blonde and southern, people let their racism fly around me.

 

When I lived in Macon, a woman warned me to not go to the swimming pool because some black children had been swimming in it.

 

When I attended a HBC for a summer, the African professor told me privately how he wasn't like those "African Americans" and began to berate them for their laziness.

 

My grandfather told me racist jokes repeatedly when I was young until I finally got brave enough to tell him to stop.

 

Same grandfather tried to explain to me why PoC were proven scientifically to be dumber than white people when I was about 30 years old. I sat and reasoned with him as long as I could and then just told him he was wrong, racist, and he would never convince me.

[Tanaqui]

Thank you for all your responses! It has given me much to think about. Thankfully, I have never witnessed some of the horrific instances of racism that some of you have described.

 

I'm glad to hear that. Just remember, like anything else, there's a spectrum. I know some people like to think that only the most extreme and blatant cases of racial bigotry "count" and if you're not a cackling Grand Dragon then you're not really a bigot, and if people don't mean to be discriminatory and aren't motivated by hate then it's not really racism... but the little stuff matters too. It's death of a thousand cuts stuff.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Tanaqui

[Ausmumof3]

Racist actions range from the gross - white kids lean out of car, shout at my dh, "Get f***ed, ya black poofter!' - or it can be subtle - not getting an interview because of your name.

 

It would be impossible to give an exhaustive list of racist actions.

 

There is no such thing as racism against whites, aka reverse racism. People can be prejudiced against us when we are white; they may dislike us and even harm us, but their actions are not based on an historic and systemic racism towards us.

There is racism against white people living in predominantly non-White countries though.

[Carol in Cal.]

Definition of racism

1. 1:  a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2. 2a :  a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principlesb :  a political or social system founded on racism

3. 3:  racial prejudice or discrimination

( from Merriam Webster online)

 

 

[Ausmumof3]

It seems pretty common around where I live. Although people are generally kind face to face.

 

I think tribal feeling is innate to people and it's hard work to overcome.

 

One common think I hear is I'm not racist I just don't like xyz religion. Also there tends to be a lot of negativity about visas etc.

[SKL]

Telling someone to shut up when she has not said anything against the rules is not cool.

 

I agree that there are different definitions of racism that are used by different people.  Each in good will considers his definition correct.

 

I think an example of racism that hasn't been mentioned is when disagreement with someone is accepted or rejected based on the color of each party to the disagreement.  For example, the accusation that you only voted for/against xyz because of his or your color.

 

Another is when a person of color is attacked for having a viewpoint or preference that is different from what is expected based on his skin color.

[SKL]

In practice, where I live, intentional racist talk is now quite rare, though it used to be less rare.

 

Somewhat more common is talk that isn't intentionally racist, but subtly reflects a sense that the person spoken of is "less than."

 

Intentionally racist "actions" (other than talk) are also quite rare where I live.

 

Racist thoughts are certainly more common, but that isn't what the OP asked about.

[hornblower]

Instead of pointing to dictionary definitions, consider what sociologists say about it. 

It's not just race or noticing different races or even not liking some races; in another article the quick def said it's: race + power. 

http://sociology.about.com/od/R_Index/fl/Racism.htm

[bibiche]

There is racism against white people living in predominantly non-White countries though.

If the non-whites are in power. Racism = prejudice + power.

[Tanaqui]

Telling someone to shut up when she has not said anything against the rules is not cool.

 

Neither is popping up to derail every single thread on this subject, SKL. It's really shitty when several people are trying to have a conversation, and one person is standing around telling them they're stupid. There are a lot of threads on this forum where I'm convinced all the participants are in the wrong, but I don't pop up just to tell them, because I know the posters aren't interested.

 

Now, I'm perfectly happy to go back to my preferred approach of not engaging with that sort of thing. I feel certain we've already given this subject entirely too much attention.

 

Carol, we already addressed that. In fact, we address it every single time we have a thread on the subject of racism, structural racism, or racial bigotry. The dictionary is not the arbiter of correct speech - the speakers are. Dictionaries are always going to be a little behind the times, because it simply takes a while for lexicocography to catch up. There are two definitions of the word "racism". I myself prefer to never use the word at all because I am soooooo sick of having this rather inane conversation.

[Tanaqui]

Sadie, there is also structural racism in other countries that doesn't fall along American lines of power. For example, consider Japan. There's a lot of racism against Koreans, the Ainu, etc, and some not insignificant racism against non-Asians (including whites) and biracial individuals. Because ethnic Japanese are at the top, it's fair to say that there is racism against whites in Japan. (But not so much, because there simply aren't very many whites *in* Japan. It's more reasonable here to say that there's racism against non-Japanese rather than against whites in particular.)

[SKL]

Neither is popping up to derail every single thread on this subject, SKL. It's really shitty when several people are trying to have a conversation, and one person is standing around telling them they're stupid. There are a lot of threads on this forum where I'm convinced all the participants are in the wrong, but I don't pop up just to tell them, because I know the posters aren't interested.

 

Now, I'm perfectly happy to go back to my preferred approach of not engaging with that sort of thing. I feel certain we've already given this subject entirely too much attention.

 

Carol, we already addressed that. In fact, we address it every single time we have a thread on the subject of racism, structural racism, or racial bigotry. The dictionary is not the arbiter of correct speech - the speakers are. Dictionaries are always going to be a little behind the times, because it simply takes a while for lexicocography to catch up. There are two definitions of the word "racism". I myself prefer to never use the word at all because I am soooooo sick of having this rather inane conversation.

 

Janeway's opinion and my opinion are not the only ones in this thread that have been stated many many many times on this forum.  You keep quiet most of the time huh? ... well anyway I think this is an open forum and it's not cool to bully people into silence.  That's all, I've made my points.

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by SKL

[Ausmumof3]

Bigotry, yes.

 

Bigotry isn't the same as racism.

 

Racism is the system that allows the racial group that’s already in power to retain power. Since arriving on U.S. soil white people have used their power to create preferential access to survival resources (housing, education, jobs, food, health, legal protection, etc.) for white people while simultaneously impeding people of color’s access to these same resources.Though "reverse racism" is a term I sometimes hear, it has never existed in America. White people are the only racial group to have ever established and retained power in the United States.

I am thinking more of Malaysia, Japan etc. white people are discriminated against there where they are a minority group. Not in Aus or US obviously.

[Tanaqui]

it's not cool to bully people into silence.

 

 

SKL, you're right. It's not okay to bully people into silence. That's why I strongly objected to the blatant attempts to get us all to stop discussing racism. I know these conversations make some people uncomfortable, but they're welcome to just ignore us if they don't like what we're talking about. They don't need to come here and harass everybody until we shut up.

[LucyStoner]

SKL, you're right. It's not okay to bully people into silence. That's why I strongly objected to the blatant attempts to get us all to stop discussing racism. I know these conversations make some people uncomfortable, but they're welcome to just ignore us if they don't like what we're talking about. They don't need to come here and harass everybody until we shut up.

Imagine if they either answered the question in the thread topic OR scrolled past the thread if they don't want to discuss the question. A girl can dream.

[Tanaqui]

I think you're probably right, but I don't know enough about Japanese society to say for certain.

[Amira]

I'm probably still not gonna be bottom of the pile though. Sadly, as you say, that will be reserved for other 'others'.

This. I've spent a lot of time in countries where there weren't many white people, but I still had white privilege, especially in diverse countries with lots of "others." Whites will pretty much never be on the bottom of the pile.

[Elfknitter.#]

This may sound dumb if you are not Hispanic/ Latino/a/x or Mecha/ Mexicano/a... I have lived in the Southern CA region since I was 4. Around 18 yo I was asked if I would bring in some salsa. I said no because my culture nor my upbringing had any salsa in our food. It was expected simply because my last name seemed to indicate I spoke Spanish-- which I don't-- and therefore I'm must be a Mexican.

 

Btw, for those who don't know, the US holds a number of territories that are not states. Puerto Rico is one of them. For any territory that the US owns, the people there are citizens. That's my PSA for today.

[DawnM]

Anytime you use the rhetoric of "all" or "most" or "those people" or, "you know how THEY are", you are delineating a line between the said group and yourself.

 

I currently work in a school that is over 90% African American. We watched a history of the school in August. The school was integrated in the 70s and 80s. The white families were not happy about it, but it seemed to actually work for a while. The saddest part to me was that as soon as the white kids came, the school got a new gym, an indoor pool, a new football and baseball field, and new materials. Why did the white kids have to come for the school to get those things?

 

And I am sick, sick, sick of hearing "well, you know that more whites were killed last year by police than blacks, so they need to stop making such a big deal about it." I pointed out that African Americans comprise 14% of the entire US population, so proportionately, there were FAR more blacks killed than whites. She isn't really speaking to me anymore. Whatever.

[Free Indeed]

Anytime you use the rhetoric of "all" or "most" or "those people" or, "you know how THEY are", you are delineating a line between the said group and yourself.

 

I currently work in a school that is over 90% African American. We watched a history of the school in August. The school was integrated in the 70s and 80s. The white families were not happy about it, but it seemed to actually work for a while. The saddest part to me was that as soon as the white kids came, the school got a new gym, an indoor pool, a new football and baseball field, and new materials. Why did the white kids have to come for the school to get those things?

 

And I am sick, sick, sick of hearing "well, you know that more whites were killed last year by police than blacks, so they need to stop making such a big deal about it." I pointed out that African Americans comprise 14% of the entire US population, so proportionately, there were FAR more blacks killed than whites. She isn't really speaking to me anymore. Whatever.

I am finding this thread interesting and educational. Thank you for the civil discussion on this topic, and answering questions.

Dawn, this surprises me. Maybe because I live in the south, but I had no idea that black people made up such a small percentage of the population. I'm not sure if it was this thread or another, but I listened to a podcast on busing in minorities to predominately middle class schools - very "interesting". I can easily see both sides of the issue. I still believe it all begins in the home. I remember my mom was in school in Houston when forced integration started and it didn't go well. There was a ton of violence and territorial behavior on both sides. They didn't want to be there, but it was law so they made them. I do think the African Americans have to choose it, they have to want it. And it needs to start young.

I'm not sure the issue is completely racial or if it's more demographical because rural America has poorer schools as well, and they are mostly white and Hispanic.

[SanDiegoMom]

One instance off the top of my head  -- I was watching a friend's kid while her husband was in surgery, and the surgery was running over time so she asked me (and the women who had the other two kids) to meet a third friend at McD's who would pick up all the kids and bring them to their parents at the hospital.  Neither I nor the other mom knew this friend, but I was texted  his name (Akila) and the car he was driving.  When we got there and met him and saw that he was black, the other woman somewhat coldly started to quiz him about how he knew the kids parents. (meanwhile the kids were giving him big hugs and climbing all over him)  When she found out to whom he was married (a white woman from the church they attend) she immediately warmed up.  It was so embarrassing and shameful to witness. 

[Ottakee]

My friend's African American son took my daughter to her senior prom this year. Dd has special needs and they wanted her to have a "date" for prom. My MIL saw the pictures the next day and asked, " he is not BLACK, is he?".....yep, he is very obviously a dark black skinned male.

 

Sad coming from MIL. She herself is full.blood Native American and has experienced a lot of issues herself due to that including being sent to boarding g school to "civilize" her in the 1950s.

[Farrar]

I'm probably still not gonna be bottom of the pile though. Sadly, as you say, that will be reserved for other 'others'.

 

I have mixed feelings about this. I definitely feel like I experienced a sort of racism when I lived in Asia - I was sometimes harassed, especially sexually harassed, occasionally in ways that made me feel unsafe that were clearly tied to being white. Sometimes people refused to sell me things or provide services I was trying to get. I was once briefly stranded somewhere because of it. So I don't feel like it was nothing. I do feel like it was racism because there was an institutional support for it. And then there were the little things like people touching my hair or calling me names or asking me to speak for all white people.

 

But then there's this other layer where it wasn't my permanent home, I had the privilege to leave, I made - not an amazing salary by any means, but more than a lot of others. My company was sought out as a status symbol. So I was often obectified, but in a way where I was a valuable object. It was exhausting even when I wasn't at the bottom, but I wasn't at the bottom.

 

But then some of it is nationality too. Like, there are minority groups in China that you might call white - they're practically Russian - who are treated like the lowest rungs of society. I feel like my privilege is tied as much to Western power as race.

 

I think it's complex... but I will heartily agree that it's a side trip for this conversation. There is no institutional support for anti-white racism in the US, Australia, Canada, etc.

[Crimson Wife]

 

 

Claiming "I don't see your color, I just see you". That's right up there with "I don't see the fact that you're white, I just see you" or "I don't consider you a woman, I consider you a person". It's creepy and offensive.

 

This is the #1 problem I have with the whole "microagressions" concept. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. famously called for us to judge people by the contents of their character rather than the color of their skin. Today that noble goal is called "racist" :(

 

I want to live in a colorblind society where someone's skin color is as unimportant as someone's eye or hair color.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

This is the #1 problem I have with the whole "microagressions" concept. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. famously called for us to judge people by the contents of their character rather than the color of their skin. Today that noble goal is called "racist" :(

 

I want to live in a colorblind society where someone's skin color is as unimportant as someone's eye or hair color.

 

Acknowledging  /= judging.

[Farrar]

This is the #1 problem I have with the whole "microagressions" concept. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. famously called for us to judge people by the contents of their character rather than the color of their skin. Today that noble goal is called "racist" :(

 

I want to live in a colorblind society where someone's skin color is as unimportant as someone's eye or hair color.

 

To get to the point where we can live that dream, we have to acknowledge reality and not bury our heads in the sand. If you refuse to see that race does continue to affect how people are treated - often through unintentional bias that is proven in various studies - then you can't help dismantle the problem. We all want to get there, but refusing to talk about race won't help us do so. Martin Luther King talked a whole lot about race and racial issues actually.

[Crimson Wife]

Racism and bigotry/bias are not synonyms.

 

Racism and racial bigotry/bias are ABSOLUTELY synonyms, and historically marginalized races can ABSOLUTELY be racist against other races (both other historically marginalized ones and teh historically favored one).

 

Racism is treating people unfairly because of their skin color/ancestry and it is wrong no matter WHO does it.

[Crimson Wife]

If the non-whites are in power. Racism = prejudice + power.

 

Racism = racial prejudice and power just enables those with prejudice to act on the underlying racism. Someone who lacks power can still be racist but is not able to hurt as many people by it.

[hornblower]

Racism and racial bigotry/bias are ABSOLUTELY synonyms, and historically marginalized races can ABSOLUTELY be racist against other races (both other historically marginalized ones and teh historically favored one).

 

Racism is treating people unfairly because of their skin color/ancestry and it is wrong no matter WHO does it.

 

CW, did you read the sociology link I posted? And the other links posted in the thread? Because you are missing part of the functional definition used by sociologists & race scholars. 

 

I'm also not sure that using the words and even ideas of a man who lived over 50 years ago is a strong foundation for any argument. It may or it may not be. His views were formed by his experiences, by his understanding of social structures, by a certain vision and expectations of how interventions would work. We have learned lots since. The words of people before us may inspire us, may give us tantalizing visions for possibilities, but I don't think they're road maps. 

 

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

The most blatent racism I have ever personally witnessed was:

1.  White American on Native American

2.  German white on German Jewish white

3.  Chinese American on African American

 

These all 'count'.  They are all wrong.  Period.

 

1.  A restaurant chain I had been to many times treated me very differently when I showed up with my friend is a obviously Native American, and not in a good way.  We were seated in an unheated room with the lights off (although it was lunch time and there was a window, so it wasn't dark) and not served (even water) until I went a made a big fuss.  

2.  A friend of mine assumed that I would feel the same way as she apparently does about someone who bragged about his skill and had a name 'Shapiro, or, you know, something like that', with a meaningful look.  (Natch I set her straight.)

3.  A good friend of mine in high school who was African American was absolutely spied on and vilified by her Chinese American boyfriend's family, who didn't care who he went out with as long as she was Asian.  Nutsy long story that extended into their college years.

[Carol in Cal.]

CW, did you read the sociology link I posted? And the other links posted in the thread? Because you are missing part of the functional definition used by sociologists & race scholars. 

 

 

 

That 'functional definition' is not accepted throughout academia, let alone throughout society.

And if this is a moral issue, and I think it is, then to give anyone a pass because of their ethnicity or skin color is morally defective.

 

No question about it, racist behavior carries more (obnoxious) force when it's accompanied by history or current societal or state power, but when it's not, it still meets the moral definition of racism, which is the one that the OP refers to and the one that carries the most weight with the most people.

[Farrar]

Okay, even if we acknowledge that all acts of dislike based on race or ethnicity are racism (which I don't, but let's just say)... does anyone really want to argue that one of my corner homeless guys calling me a cracker is somehow on the same level of societal problem as the deep, institutional bias faced by African-Americans in this country?

[Guest2]

There is a difference between racism and prejudices of other kind. They are all awful, but the subject becomes very broad. It becomes how can we be unkind to each other. If there are no obvious external differences, people will find something else be it religion, language, whatever to use as an excuse as an us vs. them.

[shinyhappypeople]

Examples of Bias:

 

* Being watched with suspicion while you walk through certain stores or in certain neighborhoods.  

 

* Being told what you think/believe/feel or even how to vote because you're a certain race or ethnicity.

 

* Being on the "them" side in an us vs. them conflict based solely on skin color or ethnicity.  

 

* Being referred to as "That Mexican" or "That White Girl" or "That [ethnic/racial group]" 

 

* Having your motivations constantly questioned based primarily on your race/ethnicity.

 

* People making assumptions about your likes, dislikes, goals, values, etc. because "All black people are good at basketball."  

 

* Assuming that because someone looks Mexican they speak Spanish or that because they look Asian they speak Chinese, etc.  (On behalf of my husband and every other brown-looking American out there... KNOCK IT OFF.  It's annoying.)

[LucyStoner]

Racism and racial bigotry/bias are ABSOLUTELY synonyms, and historically marginalized races can ABSOLUTELY be racist against other races (both other historically marginalized ones and teh historically favored one).

 

Racism is treating people unfairly because of their skin color/ancestry and it is wrong no matter WHO does it.

Not in a sociological sense.

 

We will not agree on this issue and no further discussion will be fruitful.

[SKL]

I have mixed feelings about this. I definitely feel like I experienced a sort of racism when I lived in Asia - I was sometimes harassed, especially sexually harassed, occasionally in ways that made me feel unsafe that were clearly tied to being white. Sometimes people refused to sell me things or provide services I was trying to get. I was once briefly stranded somewhere because of it. So I don't feel like it was nothing. I do feel like it was racism because there was an institutional support for it. And then there were the little things like people touching my hair or calling me names or asking me to speak for all white people.

 

But then there's this other layer where it wasn't my permanent home, I had the privilege to leave, I made - not an amazing salary by any means, but more than a lot of others. My company was sought out as a status symbol. So I was often obectified, but in a way where I was a valuable object. It was exhausting even when I wasn't at the bottom, but I wasn't at the bottom.

 

But then some of it is nationality too. Like, there are minority groups in China that you might call white - they're practically Russian - who are treated like the lowest rungs of society. I feel like my privilege is tied as much to Western power as race.

 

I think it's complex... but I will heartily agree that it's a side trip for this conversation. There is no institutional support for anti-white racism in the US, Australia, Canada, etc.

 

Interesting points.  I felt very uncomfortable in China when not with the tour guide, as people glared at me in a shop.  Also I've definitely seen white women being targeted for sexual harassment/assault due to their color alone, in more than one context.

 

And in those cases, you could say that the power balance is different when you're a few vs. many, or when it's male vs. female in many contexts.

Edited November 13, 2016 by SKL

[Laura Corin]

 

Telling somebody to just speak English.

 

 

When that backfires:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36580448/welsh-woman-on-bus-shuts-down-racist-who-told-muslim-passenger-to-speak-english

[Farrar]

Interesting points.  I felt very uncomfortable in China when not with the tour guide, as people glared at me in a shop.  Also I've definitely seen white women being targeted for sexual harassment/assault due to their color alone, in more than one context.

 

And in those cases, you could say that the power balance is different when you're a few vs. many, or when it's male vs. female in many contexts.

 

In the end, I didn't walk the streets in China afraid (in Malaysia a little, because I was alone and had experiences that weren't great). Quite the opposite. The power and race dynamic is pretty complex. I don't want to argue that my situation was anywhere near as bad as someone experiencing racism as part of a society that they were born into and will continue to live in.

 

On the other hand, I think they were valuable experiences that - I hope - help me understand a little what it's like to experience systemic racism. Like, imagine feeling that way all the time, like every store you go in, you're watched, every interaction could turn into someone saying or doing something offensive - and sometimes you know it's not intentional or it's actually meant to be positive. It's still just deeply tiring. One time I took a new to China American family across the border to Hong Kong for a weekend. The mom was like, holy crap, you should see how your whole body just relaxed. I was really surprised. I was like, really - because you adjust to feeling slightly on edge, slightly watched, slightly ready to deal with whatever it is. And that was within a foreign culture still - but to a place where whites clearly were privileged with a lot less complexity than in China.

 

I think for a lot of minorities in the US, it's the same sort of experience, but much worse because it's day in and day out without the privilege of being able to say, I can leave when I want, I'm nearly always a valuable object even when I'm an object, and I have economic privilege.

[CF6]

You can call it racism, bigotry, prejudice, bias, or any other term. The fact is, certain behaviors and comments are rude, unnecessary, and speak volumes about a person's mentality.

 

I'm Hispanic. Born and raised in south Texas. My parents were born in Texas, my grandparents were born in Texas, and my great grandparents were born in Texas. When my light-skinned husband and I moved to northwest Texas brown people were the minority. He got treated way better than I did. I got followed at the store when he wasn't with me. People would speak to me in Spanish before speaking in English, then they would ask me why I didn't speak Spanish. I've been stopped and questioned by airport security for carrying odd-shaped items, when the group of white people I traveled with to Africa were all next to me carrying the same odd-shapes items. (We all bought painting from an art gallery we visited on our trip) I've even had a cashier at the grocery store, who was ringing up the person in front of me, turned towards those of us in line and said, "Honey, you're gonna have to go to register 3. We can't accept food stamps in this line." I didn't know who she was talking to, so I just ignored it, but he cashier kept staring at us. Then the lady behind me tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Sweetie, she's talking to you. Do you understand what she said? Do you speak English?"

 

For a couple of strangers to call me out because she assumed that the brown lady with three kids in tow is on food stamps and doesn't speak English, is rude. So, no matter what term you choose to apply to this type of behavior, it is a misplaced bias.