What, to you, are racist actions?

[ktgrok]

 

I want to live in a colorblind society where someone's skin color is as unimportant as someone's eye or hair color.

 

But we don't live in that society. Skin color DOES matter in this day and age. It is effecting people. When you say you are colorblind, it sounds like you are refusing to acknowledge the daily difficulties people of color experience. 

[bibiche]

But we don't live in that society. Skin color DOES matter in this day and age. It is effecting people. When you say you are colorblind, it sounds like you are refusing to acknowledge the daily difficulties people of color experience. 

 

Exactly.  "Colorblindness" is damaging.  When a white person "doesn't see color" they are basically invalidating the experiences of those who experience racism. White people have the privilege of not seeing color, minorities do not.

 

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/02/colorblindness-adds-to-racism/

Edited November 15, 2016 by bibiche

[Tanaqui]

I feel so dense about this stuff. So what is the difference between racist jokes and jokes based on race and colour? I'm thinking that one is just based on negative stereotypes about race and the other is kinda poking fun at the stereotypes or what? We don't have a lot of diversity where I live so I actually feel really dumb about this stuff.

 

Short and simple way to tell? Is the person telling the joke part of the ingroup? If a black person is telling jokes about what black people are like or what black people do, or how some black person clearly acting dumb outwitted the white authorities - then that's great. (Insert whatever marginalized group you like.) If it's NOT a person from that group... then it's probably not okay, even if all they're doing is repeating a joke some famous black (or whatever) person told.

 

They might be a negative nickname based on race but are actually a sign of acceptance and your one of the group. The person with the nickname apparently doesn't mind. Is that ok or is it racist? I feel dumb to even ask but I am a bit clueless about stuff like that.

 

Probably better to ask the person in question. Cultural norms can vary wildly, and what is inappropriately racist in America might be perfectly acceptable in Australia. The important thing, in either place, is that the dominant group is not the one that gets to decide what is and is not appropriate.

 

On the subject of cultural norms varying wildly, the argument above about who is black is a good example. Generally in the US, only people with African heritage are considered black, however, I know that the term is used differently in other parts of the world. (And in the US, people with one black parent are generally considered black first, but I know that in some other countries people with one black parent are generally considered white.) Race is not a scientific concept, it's a cultural one. That means that different cultures have different ideas of how many races there are, or who is in which race, or what names go to what racial groups. It's really messy and complicated.

[idnib]

In case you don't know, plenty of people who are not African American self identify as BLACK. Including men from the subcontinent. It's a way of reclaiming what is used as a pejorative term against them by...that's right...white people!

 

And by other people from the subcontinent.

[Ausmumof3]

Are you thinking about people calling themselves wogs, stuff like that ?

 

In general, if someone has reclaimed a pejorative term - like wog, or dyke - and they use it to self identify, that's OK.

Yeah kinda like that.

[Scarlett]

Interesting thread. I didn't read it completely. It I did watch Sadies video. That was educational.

 

I live a very non diversified life I think. I was raised in an AR county where there were no non whites. None. Well there was a black foster boy in a white family...he graduated high school there but he was older than me and I have no really knowledge of how he was treated. But just for an idea of how little I knew about other races......I didn't even realize he was a black person. It is only in hind site and seeing his yearbook pic that I realize he was indeed a black person.

 

My religion is completely integrated.....so I saw black people at various big religious gatherings in other cities throughout the year....but I do remembering feeling awkward as a child and talking to my mom about it. She taught me right. That people are people and their value isn't determined by their skin color. She was and is a wonderful person who embraced that belief completely even though she was raised in the racist south by a racist father.

 

Then I moved to the city and still there were few blacks. 7% in the city along with other races....a lot of Vietnamese and Hispanic......but still not many in my life. A few blacks in my congregation and I am still friends with them 35 years later. There was one black man at my job. He ran the mailroom.

 

This town I live in now....more blacks than any town I have ever lived in. Only two black sisters in my congregation though.

 

Sorry for the rambling.....I am just realizing I have almost zero interactions with black people. But I do witness, quite often, very racist remarks. I am usually so stunned I lose my ability to speak. I wish I had better preparation for some of this stuff.

[bibiche]

Sorry for the rambling.....I am just realizing I have almost zero interactions with black people. But I do witness, quite often, very racist remarks. I am usually so stunned I lose my ability to speak. I wish I had better preparation for some of this stuff.

Ebunny added this and a couple other links to the thread on race, racism, and anti-racism (link in my signature). Maybe you will find it helpful: http://www.unitedagainstracism.org/archive/pages/info30.htm

[Daria]

Do you really think a brown Bangladeshi-Australian has zero insight into white racism ?

 

My HUSBAND  is of Indian heritage, and he calls himself BLACK.  Seriously, you want to lecture me on this ? I think I'll take his view over yours.

 

It's pretty clear to me in that video who Rahman identifies with, and who he doesn't.

 

You seem to be grasping at straws to reject his message.

 

Can I just say that the word black means something different in the U.S. than it does in England, I'm guessing from your post in Australia.

 

In the U.S. "black" means that you descend from Africans.  It can be direct (e.g. you yourself or your ancestors came to the U.S. from Africa) or indirect (e.g. your ancestors came from Africa to Jamaica, and then to England, and from there to the U.S).  Calling someone whose ancestors don't come from Africa black would be considered insulting.  Not because it's bad to be black (well, some people might feel that way) but because it's like calling a Korean person Chinese, it's an indication that you are lumping diverse together.

 

In England, and I'm guessing Australia, the word black is used the way Americans use the term "people of color", to mean people who are not white.  

[Ausmumof3]

Can I just say that the word black means something different in the U.S. than it does in England, I'm guessing from your post in Australia.

 

In the U.S. "black" means that you descend from Africans. It can be direct (e.g. you yourself or your ancestors came to the U.S. from Africa) or indirect (e.g. your ancestors came from Africa to Jamaica, and then to England, and from there to the U.S). Calling someone whose ancestors don't come from Africa black would be considered insulting. Not because it's bad to be black (well, some people might feel that way) but because it's like calling a Korean person Chinese, it's an indication that you are lumping diverse together.

 

In England, and I'm guessing Australia, the word black is used the way Americans use the term "people of color", to mean people who are not white.

Hmm I'm Aussie and I've not heard Indian people referred to as black before. That said, there is possibly worse racism against Indian than black people here from what I've seen.

[Rosie_0801]

Hmm I'm Aussie and I've not heard Indian people referred to as black before. That said, there is possibly worse racism against Indian than black people here from what I've seen.

 

Me either. Maybe it's a Sydney thing.

 

I think the 'Fear of a Brown Planet' guys are from Melbourne.

[mom of 2 boys]

I'm white, and I had a cashier (also white) apologize to me for having to wait in line behind a black family. 

[bibiche]

I'm white, and I had a cashier (also white) apologize to me for having to wait in line behind a black family. 

 

God I hope that was in the 1950s and not recently.

[regentrude]

Just saw that the mayor of Clay, WV, resigned and the county employee who made the racist post is no longer in her job.

Good.

[bibiche]

Just saw that the mayor of Clay, WV, resigned and the county employee who made the racist post is no longer in her job.

Good.

 

That is good, I was glad to see it. While I would hope there is some soul-searching now, I am guessing the (forced) resignation will just be blamed on "liberals" and their "political correctness."  But still, there is some progress because at least they are out of their jobs. Hallelujah.

[Ausmumof3]

Dh grew up in Melbourne, so no.

 

Maybe y'all don't spend a lot of time with Indian men ? Idk.

 

But it's not something I made up. Or dh made up.

 

And, ya know, it's not like racist white bogans make a distinction. "Get f*****, ya Bangladeshi Australian c***'. Nah.

 

If it's good enough for true blue Aussies to shout out from their hoon-cars, it's good enough for those discriminated against to reclaim the term.

 

The broader point is, the video rocks, and it's a shame that got lost in the deluge of 'Sadie you are WRONG!'

Yeah I am a bit culturally isolated. Semi rural mostly white community and mostly white church. Adelaide tends to attract less minority groups overall. Only Indians I know are doctors at our surgery and I definitely never had a conversation with them about skin colour. People can self identify as any colour/race they like as far as I'm concerned.

[bibiche]

Just saw that the mayor of Clay, WV, resigned and the county employee who made the racist post is no longer in her job.

Good.

 

"My comment was not intended to be racist at all! ....Those who know me know that I am not of any way racist!"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/11/14/ape-in-heels-w-va-officials-under-fire-after-comments-about-michelle-obama/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.63ee33ba9559

 

[hornblower]

"My comment was not intended to be racist at all! ....Those who know me know that I am not of any way racist!"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/11/14/ape-in-heels-w-va-officials-under-fire-after-comments-about-michelle-obama/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.63ee33ba9559

 

 

so maybe this needs to be added to the list to be clear

 

-referring to black people as monkeys or apes is racist 

 

-photoshopping monkeys or apes into photos of Barack & Michelle Obama or any other black person is racist 

 

-photoshopping bananas into photos of black people is racist 

 

alt-right sites have been doing this for years

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

"My comment was not intended to be racist at all! ....Those who know me know that I am not of any way racist!"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/11/14/ape-in-heels-w-va-officials-under-fire-after-comments-about-michelle-obama/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.63ee33ba9559

 

 

Choke, sputter.. how ELSE can this comment be intended?

 

And

 

 

She added that she thought Hillary Clinton’s supporters were responsible for making the post go viral.

 

And that is relevant how? It should bloody well go viral, because a message needs to be sent that this kind of speech is not tolerated.

[LucyStoner]

Just saw that the mayor of Clay, WV, resigned and the county employee who made the racist post is no longer in her job.

Good.

Good. You can't be effective at pulling in development dollars if you are that unprofessional. The employee was responsible for securing grants and investment. None of those grants of which I am aware (government or private foundation) can be secured without certifying non-discrimination.

[Ravin]

Doesn't she even know that if it's in print, it's libel?

 

I'm an attorney and I mix those terms up in everyday language. Granted, I'm not a civil torts attorney. The point is, many people don't know the difference.

[Tanaqui]

Honestly, Ravin, if you can't be pedantic and snotty towards bigots, who can you be snotty towards?

[ktgrok]

Ugh, and now the official that compared Michelle Obama to an ape in heels, and the mayor that said the comment made her day, are saying they aren't racist, and didn't mean anything racist by it.And their constituents are saying the same. Y'all, that's racist. Comparing a black person to a monkey/ape in any way is racist. People seem to think you have to lynch someone for it to be racist. 

 

Also, the teacher here in florida that told the black students Trump would send them back to Africa...also racist. Telling someone who was most likely born here, to "go back" to some other place based on skin color is racist. Again, you don't have to shave your head and burn crosses to be racist. 

[ktgrok]

More subtly, things I've heard are "the dark part of town" or "those people" or  ANY slur. I was very isolated from that kind of thing growing up, I learned al my racial slurs in college (not to use, but I didn't even know which ones referred to which ethnicity, so a friend of friend gleefully informed me...sigh). But even then, it was there. 

[SKL]

Hmm I'm Aussie and I've not heard Indian people referred to as black before.

 

Me either, and I've lived with dark-skinned Indians for nearly 30 years.  And I dated an Indian guy who wanted to marry me.  Most of my friends are dark-skinned people and the only ones who call themselves "black" have African heritage.  And I agree, some of them would be offended to be called black - because it implies (to them) that you don't know the difference between South Asia and Africa.

 

If she says her husband calls himself black, I'm not going to call her a liar.  But I understand why others are confused by her calling a Bangladeshi "black."

Edited November 16, 2016 by SKL

[SKL]

While I 100% agree that the woman who called MO an "ape" was racist and should have known better and I'm glad that person was fired ...

 

Just to keep us accurate, there have been many times when a white politician was photoshopped to look like an ape or other animal.  If you google "bush monkey photoshop" you can see all sorts of clever examples.  It is also a popular way of insulting women with whom people disagree.  The other day I saw someone compare Chelsea Clinton to a donkey cartoon.  I am not a fan of this kind of insult, just pointing out that the people doing it are not limited to racists.

 

There are other categories of acts that are considered fair game if the actor or victim falls into one group, but __ist if they fall into another group.  That's not always accurate IMO.

 

ETA I can remember times when black people have called other black people "ape" or similar.  I'm pretty sure Fred Sanford called Aunt Esther more than one such name (and vice versa).

 

Please know I'm not saying this is OK or that it's never racist.  But I don't agree with adding it to a list of acts that are "definitely racist."  It's obnoxious but not always racist.

 

I don't like any insult that is based on how a woman looks, regardless of who she is.  I don't think either Melania or Michelle is especially beautiful, but what does that have to do with anything?  Also IMO it's just as stupid to fawn all over a woman's physical plusses as it is to insult their looks.  But I guess this is an aside into sexist acts vs. racist acts ....

Edited November 16, 2016 by SKL

[hornblower]

I really think comparing white people to monkeys and other animals is very different from comparing black to people to apes. 

[SKL]

I really think comparing white people to monkeys and other animals is very different from comparing black to people to apes. 

 

I think that in the case in the news, the woman was equating black features with subhumanness and that is racist.

[ktgrok]

While I 100% agree that the woman who called MO an "ape" was racist and should have known better and I'm glad that person was fired ...

 

Just to keep us accurate, there have been many times when a white politician was photoshopped to look like an ape or other animal.  If you google "bush monkey photoshop" you can see all sorts of clever examples.  It is also a popular way of insulting women with whom people disagree.  The other day I saw someone compare Chelsea Clinton to a donkey cartoon.  I am not a fan of this kind of insult, just pointing out that the people doing it are not limited to racists.

 

There are other categories of acts that are considered fair game if the actor or victim falls into one group, but __ist if they fall into another group.  That's not always accurate IMO.

 

ETA I can remember times when black people have called other black people "ape" or similar.  I'm pretty sure Fred Sanford called Aunt Esther more than one such name (and vice versa).

 

Please know I'm not saying this is OK or that it's never racist.  But I don't agree with adding it to a list of acts that are "definitely racist."  It's obnoxious but not always racist.

 

I don't like any insult that is based on how a woman looks, regardless of who she is.  I don't think either Melania or Michelle is especially beautiful, but what does that have to do with anything?  Also IMO it's just as stupid to fawn all over a woman's physical plusses as it is to insult their looks.  But I guess this is an aside into sexist acts vs. racist acts ....

There are other animal comparisons, that are rude for whatever reason (donkey=jackass), etc. But I am going to say that comparing a black person to an ape is pretty much always racist. Or at least, so likely to be racist that one should know better and not use it. 

[Guest]

I really think comparing white people to monkeys and other animals is very different from comparing black to people to apes.

I don't. Remember when Cruz was still running and there was a political cartoon of him as a street organist with his leashed monkeys, presumably meant to be his daughters? That's a disgusting "joke" to frame someone's children, no matter your race.

 

Why is it different if it was a black person's children?

[bibiche]

LKS, stop being an apologist. You can try to contort it anyway you want, but it is always racist and you know it. There is no explaining it away. It is comparable to nothing else. Comparing black people to apes is racist. Full stop.

[SKL]

LKS, stop being an apologist. You can try to contort it anyway you want, but it is always racist and you know it. There is no explaining it away. It is comparable to nothing else. Comparing black people to apes is racist. Full stop.

 

This will be my last post on the subject of apes.

 

If it is always racist and must be off the table when applied to black people, then it should be off the table period.  It is discrimination to accept it for some people and not others.  (I would be in favor of taking it off the table period.)

[Amira]

It didn't see this posted yet, but it might help explain why it is racist to call a black person an ape when it isn't to call a white person an ape.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-conversation-africa/comparing-black-people-to_b_9345322.html

[hornblower]

This will be my last post on the subject of apes.

 

If it is always racist and must be off the table when applied to black people, then it should be off the table period.  It is discrimination to accept it for some people and not others.  (I would be in favor of taking it off the table period.)

oh for heaven's sake; now you're going full tilt into 'everyone should be treated the same' (reverse discrimination is just as bad, affirmative action is racism yadayada) which goes against pages of what's been explained here & in other threads.  When black people are photoshopped with monkeys and bananas it is not the same as when white people are.  

 

When white people are it's about being foolish or it's a screed against evolution.  When black people are it's about their inequality & a slur against their humanity.  That's why it's not the same, that's why it's racism in some cases & just sheer stupidity in others. 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by hornblower

[ktgrok]

I don't. Remember when Cruz was still running and there was a political cartoon of him as a street organist with his leashed monkeys, presumably meant to be his daughters? That's a disgusting "joke" to frame someone's children, no matter your race.

 

Why is it different if it was a black person's children?

 

It is offensive no matter who it is aimed at. But it is racist, in additional to whatever other level of offense there is, when used for a black person - because there is a LONG tradition of calling black people apes, porch monkeys, etc and a history of considering them less evolved primates. 

 

So not okay either way. But not racist with a white person because it lacks that context. Does that make sense?

[poppy]

This will be my last post on the subject of apes.

 

If it is always racist and must be off the table when applied to black people, then it should be off the table period. It is discrimination to accept it for some people and not others. (I would be in favor of taking it off the table period.)

I question why this is so important to you. It's really an odd response to a a couple of public officials comparing the black First Lady to an ape.

[Ravin]

Are you thinking about people calling themselves wogs, stuff like that ?

 

In general, if someone has reclaimed a pejorative term - like wog, or dyke - and they use it to self identify, that's OK. 

 

Wog is a racial pejorative? For whom, where? (I looked it up) Urban dictionary says it's a Brit pejorative for a nonwhite person.

 

As an American, the only familiarity I had with that term was from the Navy--a wog is someone who hasn't crossed the line (as in, the equator). Once you do (and participate in the initiation festivities), you're a shellback, and there's a whole bunch of ridiculousness and ceremony about it.

[Ravin]

I question why this is so important to you. It's really an odd response to a a couple of public officials comparing the black First Lady to an ape.

 

I will say, as someone who was an aficionado of the "Bush or chimp" website, which basically lined George W. Bush with various facial expressions alongside chimpanzees and bonobos with the same expressions, a particularly dense and/or naive person might not understand why such comparisons and analogies are racially insensitive when made of a black person.

 

Really dense, really naive. Some things that are considered racist coding, like references to watermelon, are totally lost on a lot of white people. 

[SKL]

Name calling.

 

 

I said that was gonna be my last post about apes and I meant it.  Don't bait me.  What I wrote in my posts above was clear enough.

Edited November 16, 2016 by SKL

[bibiche]

Looking for something to explain to me how so many people who are very clearly racist don't think that they are, I came upon this article.  I suppose this insistence that real racism = burning crosses on lawns of PoC while walking around in little pointy capped white costumes and nothing less might explain why people who are so blatantly racist can justify to themselves that they are not. 

[Amira]

I will say, as someone who was an aficionado of the "Bush or chimp" website, which basically lined George W. Bush with various facial expressions alongside chimpanzees and bonobos with the same expressions, a particularly dense and/or naive person might not understand why such comparisons and analogies are racially insensitive when made of a black person.

 

Really dense, really naive. Some things that are considered racist coding, like references to watermelon, are totally lost on a lot of white people. 

 

This.  It happens.  Not every white person knows every piece of racist coding.  But if you are naive or if you make a mistake, the answer isn't to get offended when someone educates you or to say you're not racist.  That's not the point. Your reaction to that education makes all the difference.  You can apologize, say thank you, and not forget what you've learned.  They're not trying to force political correctness on you or define you as a racist forevermore.  

[hornblower]

Wog is a racial pejorative? For whom, where? (I looked it up) Urban dictionary says it's a Brit pejorative for a nonwhite person.

Wikipedia:  "Wog is a slang word in the idiom of Australian English and British English, usually employed as an ethnic or racial slur and considered derogatory and offensive.

In British English, wog is an offensive racial slur usually applied to Middle Eastern and South Asian peoples. In Australian English, wog is a term used as a racial slur for people from Southern Europe, Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean region in general, and the Mediterranean region of the Middle East."

 

 

Wiki has a whole list of ethnic slurs, for anyone who wants to make sure they're not inadvertently being offensive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

Edited November 16, 2016 by hornblower

[poppy]

I will say, as someone who was an aficionado of the "Bush or chimp" website, which basically lined George W. Bush with various facial expressions alongside chimpanzees and bonobos with the same expressions, a particularly dense and/or naive person might not understand why such comparisons and analogies are racially insensitive when made of a black person.

 

Really dense, really naive. Some things that are considered racist coding, like references to watermelon, are totally lost on a lot of white people.

I know some folks are really sheltered and ignorant of history-- and I do react differently to that than to the crowd who turns every mention of racism into a 'how can we make this about white people suffering unjustly ' discussion.

 

It's just a derail. And hey look at me, I fell for it too. Sigh.

[bibiche]

I know some folks are really sheltered and ignorant of history-- and I do react differently to that than to the crowd who turns every mention of racism into a 'how can we make this about white people suffering unjustly ' discussion.

 

It's just a derail. And hey look at me, I fell for it too. Sigh.

Pointing it out is not falling for it.  I think we have to take it as a gift. "Thank you for once again bringing up 'reverse racism.'  It allows us to once again point out that Racism = Power + Privilege and therefore 'reverse racism' cannot exist in our white privileged society.  I notice that you bring up 'reverse racism'  every time we discuss racism, which leads me to believe that you do not, in fact, wish to be educated/ change your views about racism. I infer that this is because you don't have a problem with racism, which would indicate to me that you are yourself a racist.  Thank you for once again demonstrating this. It is good to be able to name things."

 

Call it out. Name it. Shine a light on it.

Edited November 16, 2016 by bibiche

[Scarlett]

When we first bought our fixer, the elderly neighbors stopped in their car and chatted to me through their car window when I was in the yard one day. They complimented the progress and we discussed fixing up houses. They told me they had restored an old Victorian a town over. I said oh I bet that was pretty....she lowered her voice to a hush and said with a tilt of her head in her best southern drawl, 'yes but the blacks bought it.' And then tsk tsk. Shaking her head.

 

I was so stunned....I literally could not speak. Several things ran through my mind.....not the least of which was oh my God we bought a house next to crazy racists!

 

I have often replayed that moment in my mind and I honestly still don't know what I should have said. But I felt icky that I said nothing.

[Tanaqui]

I have often replayed that moment in my mind and I honestly still don't know what I should have said. But I felt icky that I said nothing.

 

"How wonderful! :D "

 

[Guest]

It is offensive no matter who it is aimed at. But it is racist, in additional to whatever other level of offense there is, when used for a black person - because there is a LONG tradition of calling black people apes, porch monkeys, etc and a history of considering them less evolved primates.

 

So not okay either way. But not racist with a white person because it lacks that context. Does that make sense?

It does; I would not try to make a case that it is racist when applied to a white person, however offensive it is in any case.

[Tanaqui]

It does; I would not try to make a case that it is racist when applied to a white person, however offensive it is in any case.

 

Right. The difference is this:

 

If I call Donald Trump a monkey, I'm insulting Donald Trump by saying that he's not very smart.

 

If I call Michelle Obama a monkey, I'm insulting all black people by saying they're subhuman.

 

These two things are not really comparable. I can see why it might seem like they ought to be, but they're not.

[Guest]

Nevermind.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Kinsa

[bibiche]

Regarding the ape comment...

 

I'm not in any way saying what she did was okay, and it is right that she is no longer mayor of that little town, BUT...

 

I remember when Obama was first campaigning for the POTUS, and one of his campaign workers (black) was making a stink about how someone yelled at her son to get out of a tree and called him a monkey. IIRC, she sued that person.

 

I was completely shocked by that, because until that point in my life (I was in my late 30's by then), I had NEVER heard of or known that calling a black person a monkey was a racist epithet. I was shocked because I call my kids monkeys ALL THE TIME, and it would have NEVER occurred to me NOT to call another child who is in a tree a monkey, black or not.

 

It is scary that if I would've done so, I would be labeled a racist and forced to quit my job (if I had one). Even in my ignorance and innocence.

 

Yeah, she had a lot of nerve "making a stink", didn't she. 

[Guest]

Nevermind. Done.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Kinsa