What, to you, are racist actions?

[bibiche]

;) I might if I knew what you were talking about.

[Tanaqui]

So are you saying that the whole premise of the thread is flawed because you view the word racist as not referring to specific actions or people?

 

I'm saying that while I, at least, am perfectly capable of understanding that the word racist has two different, not entirely similar definitions and using the context to understand which one is being meant at any point in a conversation, I think it would be wiser if everybody stopped using that specific term entirely because every time we do, somebody comes along and derails the conversation from something productive into "please define this term for me, no, I think you're wrong". It's especially tedious when it's the same few people every single time.

 

This thread is about racial bigotry. Is "racism" the term I would have used to describe that? No, but I know what was meant. Are the described actions examples of racial bigotry no matter who does it? Yup, definitely.

 

 

It's people pretty much all saying, racism against African Americans is really, really awful, the worst and most far reaching around in the US.

 

Racial bigotry against minorities is certainly more common than racial bigotry against whites. That's part and parcel of the structural racism of our society. Are you really trying to claim otherwise? If so, then I must say I'm going back to my original strategy of not engaging with you. I don't know what your motive is, but the effect you're having is changing a productive conversation into one that revolves around you. That's not fair.

 

And then other people say, yes, it's so bad that there is no other racism.

 

Nobody said that. You are both equivocating and putting words in our mouths. Nobody is talking about "degree of badness". We are explaining that structural racism and racial bigotry are two very different concepts. The issue is not that one is worse than another. The issue is that they are different things.

 

The first people then say *in response only* wait, no, there IS other racism; of course it's not nearly as bad, but let's not be imprecise.  But at the same time let's keep the focus where it should be, on the worst, most far reaching racism of all.

 

Nobody said that either. You are still equivocating.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I am familiar with this line of argument.

I use the call it out call them in tactic quite a bit myself.

But I don't think it's helpful to put people into a box, and especially when class issues intersect with racial/ethnic ones in a non-overlapping way.  And in general, using pejorative terms more broadly (like, for instance, the old adage that 'all men rape' which is both literally untrue and deeply offensive), while defending indefensible behavior (like, for instance, Eldridge Cleaver saying that he raped WHITE women specifically, out of his rage at white people (especially IIRC at white men)) based on prior oppression, is a recipe for far worse relations between groups.  It's bad morals and it's bad strategy.  

 

Cleaver also renounced his own actions and his reasoning for them.

[bibiche]

The good news for me is that I realised I needed a new section on my anti-racism resource thread: "Can people of color be racist against white people?" So thanks for that all those who contributed to helping me see the need. :)

 

PS cheat sheet: the answer is a resounding NO!

Edited November 14, 2016 by bibiche

[obsidian]

Poking my head in to say thank you for the explanations of racism vs bigotry because I have a better understanding now. Anddd going back to reading now.  :leaving:

[Ausmumof3]

But people who reference "the dictionary definition" seem to leave the bolded part out. In my experience, when people of color express negative feelings towards white people, or act negatively towards white people, it's not based on a feeling of superiority. It's based on a feeling of anger at having been treated as inferior, whether by an individual, or by society as a whole. According to that definition, those actions are therefore not racism.

 

Have you had different experiences?

I personally haven't had any experiences but friends who lived in Malaysia have, also others in Thailand. Well, actually I suppose I have come across a couple of people that think Aussies have no idea how to eat healthily but that could be true.

 

I think it's somewhat natural to think "our way" or culture is the best culture subconsciously unless we are working to overcome it. I think exposure is a big part of it - learning about other ideas, religions and ways of life. But obviously it's not enough.

 

I also here plenty of negativity about European backpackers etc. while there is an element of racism a lot of it seems to be about jobs. People working for lower rates when the unions are trying to negotiate higher rates for local workers etc. I definitely don't think thinking your own race is superior is limited to white people - it's just that we've taken it to a horrible extreme.

[poppy]

The good news for me is that I realised I needed a new section on my anti-racism resource thread: "Can people of color be racist against white people?" So thanks for that all those who contributed to helping me see the need. :)

 

PS cheat sheet: the answer is a resounding NO!

Oh thank you . I am so tired of the derailing and defensiveness and people thinking it's the most crucial thing in the world to get in there : 'someone was once mean to me too!' Every. Time.

[Tanaqui]

Oh thank you . I am so tired of the derailing and defensiveness and people thinking it's the most crucial thing in the world to get in there : 'someone was once mean to me too!' Every. Time.

 

For serious. That's right up there with "Oh, I would never do that horrible thing! Not all white people would!"

 

Great, well, if you wouldn't then we're not talking about you. Here's your cookie. Enjoy!

 

I mean, I get the impulse. I love being the center of attention too (in a good way). But sometimes it's not about me. Sometimes it's about other people. Being a good listener means you have to, you know, listen.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh thank you . I am so tired of the derailing and defensiveness and people thinking it's the most crucial thing in the world to get in there : 'someone was once mean to me too!' Every. Time.

 

Without trying to sound like I'm giving you the same line, I don't think it's fair to dismiss this line of reasoning entirely.  To me the real problem with racism isn't the obvious blatant actions.  But if we say it is (based on several of these posts people seem to think it is), then that's what we are discussing.  Blatant actions.  People can be quite terrible towards each other.  Some people endure years of bullying in school which has nothing to do with race.  So I can imagine the line of thinking of we need to figure out why people do mean things to each other in general.  It's just not that simple with racism though.  I personally have never encountered outrageous in your face bad treatment of someone based on their race (I live in a very diverse area).  But there are still issues and problems and results that point to racism of a subtle nature going on. 

[heartlikealion]

Why is so much energy going into 'proving' that white people are also the victims of 'racism' ?

 

Given this discussion in taking place in a US context, where no-one can possibly argue equivalence or anything close to it, why so desperate to make it clear that 'whites are victims too' ? 

 

Some of you really should watch the videos Bibiche and I posted, which actually, you know, have black people speaking.

 

watched the one with Aamer Rahman. He's not black as far as I know (Bangladesh descent). What I took from that was, I get where he's coming from but also think he and many other people in standup are perhaps simply acting like jerks. Did I laugh at anything he said? Probably. But does it make it right? That's the question in my head.

 

 

Having trouble multiquoting with two pages (Bibeche's quote):

 

The good news for me is that I realised I needed a new section on my anti-racism resource thread: "Can people of color be racist against white people?" So thanks for that all those who contributed to helping me see the need. :)

 

PS cheat sheet: the answer is a resounding NO!

 

I just want to say that as long as I know which definition we're using, I'm not in disagreement with anyone here. On your website, please be sure to make the definition you're using loud and clear. Doesn't matter that it's in the dictionary. Many people that I know use the definition in the sense of, "any prejudice based on race or skin color."

 

So as to your question in another part of this thread with fact vs opinion (not directed at me but I'm responding). I am not trying to dispute facts. I'm just saying those facts are not necessarily widely known or used by the average Joe. The Hive may have a lot more people that are privy of these things than other areas in our lives. This is, of course, my opinion lol.

Edited November 14, 2016 by heartlikealion

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

This thread is about racial bigotry. Is "racism" the term I would have used to describe that? No, but I know what was meant. Are the described actions examples of racial bigotry no matter who does it? Yup, definitely.

 

Then we agree on the fundamentals of those actions, and view the semantics differently.

 

Racial bigotry against minorities is certainly more common than racial bigotry against whites. That's part and parcel of the structural racism of our society. Are you really trying to claim otherwise?

 

Absolutely not, and I've said that more than once, very strongly.  I would add that not only is it more common, but it's far more destructive.

 

 

 

I just don't think it's strategically wise to assign a novel and esoteric meaning to 'racism', that has to do with structural rather than personal issues, and then use the term that way and yell at those who don't fall into line.  What does it accomplish?  All it does is make people think that the speaker is being disingenuous at best, and justifying their own racism at worst

 

It's important because it can do a lot more harm than good.

 

I guess I'm just older.  I remember the 'all men rape' thing and how much harm that did to actual progress that people were actually making, in terms of hearts and minds and actions.  I would HATE to see something similar happen to the actual progress that has been made, although we have  a LOT further to go, in race relations in this country.  

 

The ironic thing is that we want the same thing, both of us very badly.  Tactically the approach that you're taking worries me.  Please consider that.  I don't need an answer, but I hope that you think about this carefully.

[bibiche]

 

 

I just want to say that as long as I know which definition we're using, I'm not in disagreement with anyone here. On your website, please be sure to make the definition you're using loud and clear. Doesn't matter that it's in the dictionary. Many people that I know use the definition in the sense of, "any prejudice based on race or skin color."

 

 

 

There are a number of articles with the explanation of what racism is in the resource thread that is linked in my signature.

 

Here is yet another article about anti-racism: 3 Reasons Why being Anti-Racist Isn't Code for Being Anti-White.  I get that people have a knee-jerk reaction to argue about this, but as the article says, "If a white person feels attacked by the basic premise of anti-racism, that person might be racist."  Conversations about race and racism are uncomfortable, but the only way we will become that "color-blind" society that white people talk about wanting to become (in the extremely clueless if not offensive "I don't see race") is by confronting it.

 

As for your other point, I'll let Sadie handle that one. :)

Edited November 14, 2016 by bibiche

[Daria]

I just don't think it's strategically wise to assign a novel and esoteric meaning to 'racism', that has to do with structural rather than personal issues, and then use the term that way and yell at those who don't fall into line.  What does it accomplish?  All it does is make people think that the speaker is being disingenuous at best, and justifying their own racism at worst

 

It's important because it can do a lot more harm than good.

 

I guess I'm just older.  I remember the 'all men rape' thing and how much harm that did to actual progress that people were actually making, in terms of hearts and minds and actions.  I would HATE to see something similar happen to the actual progress that has been made, although we have  a LOT further to go, in race relations in this country.  

 

The ironic thing is that we want the same thing, both of us very badly.  Tactically the approach that you're taking worries me.  Please consider that.  I don't need an answer, but I hope that you think about this carefully.

 

This definition?

 

 

 

b :  a political or social system founded on racism 

 

 

 

 

Is this the novel and esoteric meaning that you're referring to?

 

Racism has never been only about personal issues.  When people talk about racism as being about personal issues, they deny the enormous impact that systemic racism has and continues to have on our country.  

 

Saying that racism is an issue that's embedded in the structures of our society, is not the same as saying "all men rape".  It's the same as saying that misogyny is more than just rape.  

[heartlikealion]

There are a number of articles with the explanation of what racism is in the resource thread that is linked in my signature.

 

Here is yet another article about anti-racism: 3 Reasons Why being Anti-Racist Isn't Code for Being Anti-White.  I get that people have a knee-jerk reaction to argue about this, but as the article says, "If a white person feels attacked by the basic premise of anti-racism, that person might be a racist."  Conversations about race and racism are uncomfortable, but the only way we will become that "color-blind" society that white people talk about wanting to become (in the extremely clueless if not offensive "I don't see race") is by confronting it.

 

As for your other point, I'll let Sadie handle that one. :)

 

Why are you sharing this with me, though? I said I don't disagree with you. I said just be sure you know your audience before you speak. I will do the same from now on. I am really confused. I feel like you're saying, "oh, since you still don't know what racism is and since you asked about "anti-white" (I didn't)... here are some links."

 

:confused1:

 

[bibiche]

Why are you sharing this with me, though? I said I don't disagree with you. I said just be sure you know your audience before you speak. I will do the same from now on. I am really confused. I feel like you're saying, "oh, since you still don't know what racism is and since you asked about "anti-white" (I didn't)... here are some links."

 

:confused1:

 

 

Just thought it was an organic way to insert something important into the general conversation. Not directed at you. :)

[heartlikealion]

ok disregard my PM I guess lol

[poppy]

Why are you sharing this with me, though? I said I don't disagree with you. I said just be sure you know your audience before you speak. I will do the same from now on. I am really confused. I feel like you're saying, "oh, since you still don't know what racism is and since you asked about "anti-white" (I didn't)... here are some links."

 

:confused1:

 

If she puts a 'when I say racism I mean [disclaimer ]' , it's putting all views as equally valid. Or at least acknowledging many contradictory views as equally valid. She doesn't have to do that.

[heartlikealion]

If she puts a 'when I say racism I mean [disclaimer ]' , it's putting all views as equally valid. Or at least acknowledging many contradictory views as equally valid. She doesn't have to do that.

 

Maybe she should just post the definition above. It doesn't have to be seen as a disclaimer. Just like, "here you go, in case you need a reminder."

 

It was just a suggestion. I know if I was reading a website that conflicted with what I've been hearing all my life I'd probably click away in disgust possibly before digging deeper/opening a new tab.

 

*not literally with "here you go, in case you need a reminder."

Edited November 14, 2016 by heartlikealion

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

Saying that racism is an issue that's embedded in the structures of our society, is not the same as saying "all men rape".  It's the same as saying that misogyny is more than just rape.  

Actually, Daria, when 'all men rape' was floating around, it was saying exactly that--that all men benefit from the pervasiveness of rape, whether they do it or not.  This was quite a long time ago, I guess--the 70s IIRC.  And the thing is, the structural point was accurate, but the specific statement was not and caused a great deal of (fairly appropriate) backlash that derailed some fairly good stuff. I would hate to see that happen with the racial issues as well.  That's my point, and I'm done.  :)

[poppy]

Actually, Daria, when 'all men rape' was floating around, it was saying exactly that--that all men benefit from the pervasiveness of rape, whether they do it or not. This was quite a long time ago, I guess--the 70s IIRC. And the thing is, the structural point was accurate, but the specific statement was not and caused a great deal of (fairly appropriate) backlash that derailed some fairly good stuff. I would hate to see that happen with the racial issues as well. That's my point, and I'm done. :)

Was this something you personally believed , or something you were told other women believed ? Cause if it's the latter I would put a big grain of salt. Like the bra burning that never actually happened .

[Carol in Cal.]

Was this something you personally believed , or something you were told other women believed ? Cause if it's the latter I would put a big grain of salt. Like the bra burning that never actually happened .

It was asserted by women who were studying rape, drawn from books about it, particularly 'Against Our Will' by Susan Brownmiller.

 

You're right about the bra burning, that was an urban myth, but the 'all men rape' thing actually happened.  It was a summary version of longer quotes, and widely used at the time.

[Charlie]

I just don't think it's strategically wise to assign a novel and esoteric meaning to 'racism', that has to do with structural rather than personal issues, and then use the term that way and yell at those who don't fall into line.  What does it accomplish?  All it does is make people think that the speaker is being disingenuous at best, and justifying their own racism at worst

 

It's important because it can do a lot more harm than good.

 

I guess I'm just older.  I remember the 'all men rape' thing and how much harm that did to actual progress that people were actually making, in terms of hearts and minds and actions.  I would HATE to see something similar happen to the actual progress that has been made, although we have  a LOT further to go, in race relations in this country.  

 

The ironic thing is that we want the same thing, both of us very badly.  Tactically the approach that you're taking worries me.  Please consider that.  I don't need an answer, but I hope that you think about this carefully.

 

Do you think personal issues contribute to structural ones, or vice versa? Do you think understanding social behavior gets more sophisticated over time as general observations inspire analyzing certain details more thoroughly? If so, do you think the concept of racism is one of those concepts?

 

Earlier you had said racism is both unAmerican and unChristian, but we can see from history that racism has been formally and informally supported by both American and Christian ideas, expectations, rules, and law. In which ways, other than exploring an issue in novel ways, focusing on those ideas that get traction, do you think these sentiments change?

[Ravin]

oh, and a simple one: swastikas are racist. 

 

& yeah, that other flag of yours is too imo.  I think we had a big long debate about this here a while back with some arguments about culture and history but I remain unconvinced.  

 

 

People have been reporting many many sightings of both the last few days. Laura Drryfuss from Glee reports she saw swastikas on the way home in New York City.  It's absolutely mindboggling. 

 

I do think that in the proper context, swastikas are not necessarily racist. The most common one in the U.S. being Hindu use of the symbol, particularly at Diwali.

 

I know Asatruar who try and make the case for it not being racist when used in the context of our religion, but while I might use it for, say, a symbolic gesture over the drinking horn during Yule rites, I would not display it in public. It is decidedly more problematic for a Germanic heathen than for a Hindu for obvious reasons, not least of which is the white supremacist fringe who continue to draw on the same religious imagery co-opted by the Nazis.

[TranquilMind]

I'm not OP, but I'll give you one answer. I appreciate those who approach to offer support. We don't bite I promise.  All you have to do is just be yourself, how else would you approach a mom with kids in tow you met at the library/store/park. We have the same kid issues, same housekeeping/ scheduling/life issues as others. Like UmSami said, " biggest thrill to me was somebody actually smiling and talking to me about normal things, because it meant they saw me as normal." <<1000x this. 

 

The other day a lady stuck up a conversation with me at the grocery store. Cereal was on very big sale, so I stocked up. She saw all the boxes and  just talked to me about how many kids, ages, etc.... totally normal. We joked about this being my "quiet time" grocery shopping and she reminisced about when her kids were little. We said good morning and parted ways. Those encounters make be believe there are some Americans who can look and see people, not groups.

 

I have on 1 or 2 occasions, felt "singled" out. Those were weird encounters where while the words sounded positive, they felt fake, you could tell with body language/facial expressions.  And both cases the language was rather belittling under the surface. Like they were trying to show their friends who were sitting at the table "look how nice I am speaking to the poor oppressed foreign woman".  :lol: Oh, she doesn't know me at all. Both times they were shocked when I opened my mouth and spoke perfect English.

 

I have had all those UmSami mentioned (go home, lose the hijab, speak american) and the stares and finger pointing and the rolled eyes because I have 4 kids. 

I am also fair, green eyed and blond, typically wear pants/long tunics/shirts but most can't see past the hijab.

Well, I guess I do something right then.  I can't even imagine a grocery store trip without having in depth conversations with like 5- 10 people.  That's why I don't go much.  I talk to everyone and it takes all day   ;)

 

 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

Carol, are you reading what I post? I've already said - repeatedly - that I find it better to never use the term "racism" at all, for any definition, precisely because I prefer to avoid, well... this. Every single person posting on this thread has been on this forum long enough to have seen several race-related threads derail into a conversation on the definition of race. The claim that some of us have never been exposed to the common sociological definition is absurd.

Though, for the record, the definition of "racism" to mean only structural or institutional racism is not "novel" nor "esoteric". It's been the common usage among experts - that is, those who discuss this frequently - for well over 15 years. (And it is quite usual for terms to have one meaning in common parlance, and another technical definition. Consider the word "grammar", which for linguists has to do strictly with syntax and morphology and for the average person means "following the prescriptive/prestigious rules as they relate to spelling, punctuation, pronunciation, syntax, and morphology".)

[Maus]

It is interesting. As of right now I appear rather mannish if I am not wearing a skirt (I don't have much bust anymore, I'm rather muscular, and I tend to stride), and the different ways that people treat me in different clothes are rather fascinating. 

 

It's caused issues with people calling security on me in toilets though, especially at the height of the transgender bathroom hysteria. 

 

 

I have thought bout doing this before, just as a sociology experiment. I have also considered posing as a man, or maybe I would possibly appear to be a transgender man. I thought it would be interesting to see what my interactions would be like if I appeared very differently.

 

I inadvertently did a similar social experiment a year ago.  We took the same vacation we usually take, making the same pit stops, and eating at the same restaurants, etc., only we decided to ride down on my husband's motorcycle.  So instead of wearing the usual T-shirt, shorts, and flip-flops popular in that destination, we were in our leather vests and boots.  (DH was sporting a big, scruffy, biker's beard, too.)  It was very enlightening.  It was very odd to have other women skirt around me in the ladies room.  On the other hand, people I would have avoided previously, like the scruffy teenagers smoking in the back, were very friendly, so I came home thinking about biases I didn't know I had.

 

 

There is a difference between racism and prejudices of other kind. They are all awful, but the subject becomes very broad. It becomes how can we be unkind to each other. If there are no obvious external differences, people will find something else be it religion, language, whatever to use as an excuse as an us vs. them.

 

So adding this thought into what I was saying above, sometimes we are kind of using the same thinking we are protesting when we are protesting prejudice, in that, it's really focused on what the other people are doing.  "Look how terrible society is, because they are so bigoted," all while we are thinking we are above that.

 

When I examine my own thinking, I find some not right (and kind of odd) thinking.  For instance, two doors down, we have a mixed race couple.  She's from Cape Verde, Africa.  She and I have similar educational backgrounds, and we've both lived in Europe, and we go to the same church, so we are fairly good friends, but I find myself avoiding her white husband (I'm white), because he's big and he's a truck driver.  Something about him has turned him into a "them" in my mind, and I need to fix that.

 

The way I see it, healthy dialogue brings awareness, and awareness can be very productive if it starts first with what can I change about myself, then moves to influencing my children, and then spreads out from there.  I'm realizing I can tell my children all day long that it's wrong for the restaurant to refuse service to someone because of skin color, but if I'm still avoiding the truck driver, my kids are not hearing my words.

 

 

(And I hope no one thinks I'm calling you out.  I'm feeling that introspective today.  There's something I really, really want right now, and the biggest thing holding me back is me.)

[Joules]

 

 

Another good example related to that incident from last year of the teenage girl beaten by a cop for jumping a fence to get into a public school is how many people know why there are so few public pools in the south? Wonder why that is? Hundreds of pools in this country were filled in during the 1960's to avoid integrating them. I was shocked to discover that one of these pools was in my hometown. 

 

Yep, this happened to my swimming hole as a kid...at the time, all I was told was "The government made them close."  It was years later before I knew what actually happened.

[heartlikealion]

The explanation of the swimming pools being filled in was eye opening. That could potentially explain a lot about pool options in my state.

[hornblower]

OP, here's another example of racist actions: 


 A West Virginia county official posted on her fb page a comment saying she was glad about Melania because she was tired of seeing 'a ape in heels' in the White House

The mayor replied "you just made my day" 
 

 

   You can read more about it here http://clayberry.org/ 

 

[bibiche]

OP, here's another example of racist actions:

 

 

A West Virginia county official posted on her fb page a comment saying she was glad about Melania because she was tired of seeing 'a ape in heels' in the White House

The mayor replied "you just made my day"

 

 

You can read more about it here http://clayberry.org/

 

 

Absolutely vile. But we don't have a problem with racism in this country. :eye roll:

[LucyStoner]

Absolutely vile. But we don't have a problem with racism in this country. :eye roll:

And "she's sorry for any offense others may have taken" but "she is not racist".

 

Lady, when you call a black person an ape you are no longer able to gauge what is and isn't racist.

[Tanaqui]

I think I just threw up a little, hornblower.

[hornblower]

I think I just threw up a little, hornblower.

 

IKR? 

 

It used to be you had to go to breitbart or 4Chan or the seedy side of Twitter (like @nero before he got banned) *  but now it's 'suddenly' ok to just post this on your fb page because hey, the mayor will agree with you! 

 

 

*For those that don't follow this stuff Nero is Milo Yiannopoulos, a vile jerk who finally got banned from Twitter for violating abuse rules by endlessly racially harassing Leslie Jones, the black actor in Ghostbusters. He & his troupe of followers sent her many, many pictures of apes among other hate mail. 

 

& the reason this is all relevant is that Milo Yiannopoulos works at Breitbart, yes, the same Breitbart whose head, Steve Bannon, is advising your president-elect. 

[LucyStoner]

The woman who made the ape in heels post is now working with an attorney to sue the people she says have slandered her.

 

She also says that this has turned into a hate crime against her.

 

And that, in a nutshell is how much of white America sees racism. Somehow the white person becomes the victim.

[QueenCat]

The woman who made the ape in heels post is now working with an attorney to sue the people she says have slandered her.

 

She also says that this has turned into a hate crime against her.

 

And that, in a nutshell is how much of white America sees racism. Somehow the white person becomes the victim.

 

Makes me want to cry and scream at the same time. How absurd of her.

[regentrude]

The woman who made the ape in heels post is now working with an attorney to sue the people she says have slandered her.

 

She also says that this has turned into a hate crime against her.

 

And that, in a nutshell is how much of white America sees racism. Somehow the white person becomes the victim.

:banghead:

[Tanaqui]

The woman who made the ape in heels post is now working with an attorney to sue the people she says have slandered her.

 

Doesn't she even know that if it's in print, it's libel?

[heartlikealion]

Well, he's sure as heck not white. 

 

No, but not all dark people are black and not all Asians are Chinese and so forth. This type of mislabeling can sometimes be very annoying if not offensive to people. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being any of these, but that if you're gonna take the time to link the guy's video because of a thread about race, maybe get his race right. Of course, maybe you were never referring to him when you said what you originally said and were referring to only certain videos. /shrug

[Spryte]

:(

 

No words. Just no words.

[Ellesmere]

That is exactly how it goes, though. I finally learned earlier this year not to ever try and even have a friendly discussion if a white person says or posts something that is racist. (And I mean among a closer-knit group of friends, not just random people online) Because inevitably the white person is the victim and somehow I'm no longer a friend but a trouble-maker.

I also learned from a white relative that any racial discrimination I've gone through is not that bad. I said something like, you know, I'm not white and I'm going to disagree on this one. I can't even go into the rest of the conversation. It was painful. It is painful.

[Carol in Cal.]

OP, here's another example of racist actions: 

 

 

 A West Virginia county official posted on her fb page a comment saying she was glad about Melania because she was tired of seeing 'a ape in heels' in the White House

The mayor replied "you just made my day" 

 

 

   You can read more about it here http://clayberry.org/ 

 

 

Absolutely disgusting, totally racist, entirely blatant.  Horrible.

[goldberry]

That link doesn't work. 

[heartlikealion]

OMG I KNEW he was Bangladeshi-Australian, and he self identifies that way and he has has lived experience of white racism.

 

Do you really think a brown Bangladeshi has zero insight into white racism ? 

 

My HUSBAND  is of Indian heritage, and he calls himself BLACK.  Seriously, you want to lecture me on this ? I think I'll take his view over yours.

 

A. I didn't say anything about his insight lacking.

B. I just said that lots of times people don't appreciate being called something they don't identify as

 

My comment was not meant to involve your husband, but thank you for his perspective. You could have just said that one post back, but you know, without flipping out. I had a close friend in college that always got called black, but she'd tell me she's not black, she's Panamanian.

 

Guess we won't know unless we ask him.

[heartlikealion]

Do you really think a brown Bangladeshi-Australian has zero insight into white racism ?

 

My HUSBAND  is of Indian heritage, and he calls himself BLACK.  Seriously, you want to lecture me on this ? I think I'll take his view over yours.

 

It's pretty clear to me in that video who Rahman identifies with, and who he doesn't.

 

You seem to be grasping at straws to reject his message.

 

Since you edited your post.

 

I DIDN'T REJECT HIS MESSAGE. I said that I ask myself if jokes of that nature are right, coming from anyone. You did read that I'm Mexican, right? Yeah, what would I know about anything. My mom had to fight to get my birth certificate because she didn't make it to the hospital in time when I was born.

[heartlikealion]

In case you don't know, plenty of people who are not African American self identify as BLACK. Including men from the subcontinent. It's a way of reclaiming what is used as a pejorative term against them by...that's right...white people!

 

But hey, I'm terribly sorry I didn't make absolutely clear that Rahman's form of not-whiteness is brown. Super important to know he's 'only' brown.

 

Worrying about whether black people should make jokes about white people is just so far beside the point it's not funny.

 

THAT WAS NEVER MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

That is why I'm still arguing with you.

 

My point was should ANYONE ON THIS PLANET make jokes about people based on race or color.

 

And my other point was when you casually referred to everyone in your video links as black, you could label someone in a dismissive way they don't appreciate. That was my point.

 

I'm done.

 

[heartlikealion]

Before anyone misconstrues yet another post of mine I will clarify (without editing my last post because I want to leave them intact). I don't mean being labeled black is bad. I simply mean that not everyone dark considers themselves black, not everyone that speaks Spanish considers themselves Latino, etc.

[bibiche]

 

 

My point was should ANYONE ON THIS PLANET make jokes about people based on race or color.

 

And my other point was when you casually referred to everyone in your video links as black, you could label someone in a dismissive way they don't appreciate. That was my point.

 

I'm done.

 

I'm not touching your second point there. No way.

 

But as to your first, my answer is yes, absolutely. Humor is a great way to get people to think about things that they might not otherwise think about. Aamer Rahman's skit is great. Key & Peele also use humor to treat ethnic stereotypes and race relations.  Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock used humor to deal with race and how it relates to current events on SNL the other night.  You can be really funny while still dealing with something really serious.  So yeah, people on this planet should absolutely make jokes based on race or color.  Racist jokes, no. Jokes that deal with race, yes.

[Scarlett]

You can call it racism, bigotry, prejudice, bias, or any other term. The fact is, certain behaviors and comments are rude, unnecessary, and speak volumes about a person's mentality.

 

I'm Hispanic. Born and raised in south Texas. My parents were born in Texas, my grandparents were born in Texas, and my great grandparents were born in Texas. When my light-skinned husband and I moved to northwest Texas brown people were the minority. He got treated way better than I did. I got followed at the store when he wasn't with me. People would speak to me in Spanish before speaking in English, then they would ask me why I didn't speak Spanish. I've been stopped and questioned by airport security for carrying odd-shaped items, when the group of white people I traveled with to Africa were all next to me carrying the same odd-shapes items. (We all bought painting from an art gallery we visited on our trip) I've even had a cashier at the grocery store, who was ringing up the person in front of me, turned towards those of us in line and said, "Honey, you're gonna have to go to register 3. We can't accept food stamps in this line." I didn't know who she was talking to, so I just ignored it, but he cashier kept staring at us. Then the lady behind me tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Sweetie, she's talking to you. Do you understand what she said? Do you speak English?"

 

For a couple of strangers to call me out because she assumed that the brown lady with three kids in tow is on food stamps and doesn't speak English, is rude. So, no matter what term you choose to apply to this type of behavior, it is a misplaced bias.

Oh my word! That is so messed up on so many levels. Wow!

[Ausmumof3]

I'm not touching your second point there. No way.

 

But as to your first, my answer is yes, absolutely. Humor is a great way to get people to think about things that they might not otherwise think about. Aamer Rahman's skit is great. Key & Peele also use humor to treat ethnic stereotypes and race relations. Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock used humor to deal with race and how it relates to current events on SNL the other night. You can be really funny while still dealing with something really serious. So yeah, people on this planet should absolutely make jokes based on race or color. Racist jokes, no. Jokes that deal with race, yes.

I feel so dense about this stuff. So what is the difference between racist jokes and jokes based on race and colour? I'm thinking that one is just based on negative stereotypes about race and the other is kinda poking fun at the stereotypes or what? We don't have a lot of diversity where I live so I actually feel really dumb about this stuff.

 

I also have a weird thing where I'm trying to figure out whether some stuff is racist or not. In Aus there's a certain kind of culture where basically if you've got a nickname your accepted in the group. And the more negative the nickname and the more teasing you get the more accepted you are. It's kinda messed up but that's how it is. Anyway sometime the nicknames are based on race. They might be a negative nickname based on race but are actually a sign of acceptance and your one of the group. The person with the nickname apparently doesn't mind. Is that ok or is it racist? I feel dumb to even ask but I am a bit clueless about stuff like that.

[bibiche]

I feel so dense about this stuff. So what is the difference between racist jokes and jokes based on race and colour? I'm thinking that one is just based on negative stereotypes about race and the other is kinda poking fun at the stereotypes or what? We don't have a lot of diversity where I live so I actually feel really dumb about this stuff.

 

I also have a weird thing where I'm trying to figure out whether some stuff is racist or not. In Aus there's a certain kind of culture where basically if you've got a nickname your accepted in the group. And the more negative the nickname and the more teasing you get the more accepted you are. It's kinda messed up but that's how it is. Anyway sometime the nicknames are based on race. They might be a negative nickname based on race but are actually a sign of acceptance and your one of the group. The person with the nickname apparently doesn't mind. Is that ok or is it racist? I feel dumb to even ask but I am a bit clueless about stuff like that.

Did you watch the video that Sadie posted? 

I think that is really valuable because it is using humor to explain what racism is.

Racist jokes are more like jokes told by someone in a position of power (ie white) at the expense of a minority. The kind you problem wouldn't tell if the minority in question were there, you know? Mean and damaging.

 

Not quite sure I follow you on the nickname thing. Could you give an example?