s/o when should your kids have sex?

[Guest]

This conversation has taken the weirdest of turns. :D

[Pam in CT]

Once again, I'm grateful -- a lot to think about here, and also talk about with my kids.

 

 

The issue of mismatched timing within the context of an existing relationship is one thing I haven't much discussed with them -- it maybe veers close to TMI pretty quickly, lol -- but this thread has convinced me that it's an important element in communication and relationship building.

 

I concur with many pp that in a healthy caring relationship, partners are attuned to one another's moods, responsive to one another's interests, able to "read" one another's non-verbal language much of the time, and game to go along with one another's proposed activities much of the time with the idea that it might well turn out to be fun even if at the moment of the proposal it sounds a bit meh.

 

At the same time, I also concur with other pp that an expectation that concurrence is necessary can cross a line into unhealthy territory, particularly when the expectation is coupled with beliefs that concurrence is necessary to protect against porn or affairs, or is coupled with teachings from a faith tradition. 

 

I am very uncomfortable with the idea that my kids -- OK, my daughters -- feel pressure to consent when they feel "meh" out of such fears or teachings.

 

For me, a verbal or non-verbal, playful or loving, hmm I dunno but go ahead and give it a try and let's see what happens is immensely different from it's my obligation to fulfill my partner's expectations.  The former is, to me, within the parameters of a healthy and mutual relationship -- along the lines of OK dear I'll watch the football game with you if that's what you want -- whereas the latter crosses over into creepy and potentially coercive territory that I really would not want my daughters to live in.

 

Part of the difference is communication styles (which obviously vary wildly between couples).  A number of pp suggested that a bald No without explanation or softening would seem cold and rejecting, and OTOH I totally understand that; OTOH I can also see within a relationship with a different style, an exhausted-tone No followed by rolling over and falling asleep would signal I'm exhausted, a complete sentiment that within a mutually respectful relationship is more than sufficient.  

 

Another part of the difference is frequency.  When there is an ongoing mismatch of desire over a long haul, that becomes a relationship issue that needs work -- almost certainly from both partners.  That to me is quite different from a given one-off where one partner's in the mood and the other is not, which strikes me as more like a one-off where one feels like going out to a ball game and the other like staying home and reading.

 

 

 

Back on the making-tea thread earlier this year, Nan mentioned a "tool" her son had brought home from a college session meant to raise awareness about sexual coercion, that I have been carrying ever since: 

 

 

-You practise saying, "Stop." You randomly say stop, giving no reason, and the other person has to stop immediately, no questions asked. If they don,t, then it is huge red flag. In a good relationship, anyone should be able to say stop at any time.

 

I think this is excellent advice.  (If you're reading this, Nan, please thank your son!)

 

Not repeatedly, to the same partner -- that would become manipulative and mean.  But it's essential information: within this relationship, do I (or, I'm thinking about my daughters here) does this partner respect my right to change my mind, at any time, without a reason?

 

If the answer is equivocal, there is IMNSHO a boundary problem.  The thought of my kids living in such territory (on either side of such a problem) makes me cringe... so I'm grateful for this rabbit trail of a thread for bringing it forth for me.

 

 

 

 

Quotable quote:

...... Don't use sex as a way to manipulate to get love.  Don't use love as a way to manipulate to get sex.  ...

:iagree:

 

As a woman who's been married longer than some of y'all have been alive :lol:  , I'll say:  In the long haul, neither works.

[marbel]

Once again, I'm grateful -- a lot to think about here, and also talk about with my kids.

 

The issue of mismatched timing within the context of an existing relationship is one thing I haven't much discussed with them -- it maybe veers close to TMI pretty quickly, lol -- but this thread has convinced me that it's an important element in communication and relationship building.

 

I concur with many pp that in a healthy caring relationship, partners are attuned to one another's moods, responsive to one another's interests, able to "read" one another's non-verbal language much of the time, and game to go along with one another's proposed activities much of the time with the idea that it might well turn out to be fun even if at the moment of the proposal it sounds a bit meh.

 

At the same time, I also concur with other pp that an expectation that concurrence is necessary can cross a line into unhealthy territory, particularly when the expectation is coupled with beliefs that concurrence is necessary to protect against porn or affairs, or is coupled with teachings from a faith tradition. 

 

I am very uncomfortable with the idea that my kids -- OK, my daughters -- feel pressure to consent when they feel "meh" out of such fears or teachings.

 

For me, a verbal or non-verbal, playful or loving, hmm I dunno but go ahead and give it a try and let's see what happens is immensely different from it's my obligation to fulfill my partner's expectations.  The former is, to me, within the parameters of a healthy and mutual relationship -- along the lines of OK dear I'll watch the football game with you if that's what you want -- whereas the latter crosses over into creepy and potentially coercive territory that I really would not want my daughters to live in.

 

<snip>

 

Re: the first bolded: This is where the conversation veered, isn't it?  Things that work in a long-term relationship aren't going to work when people are just starting to get together.   I wouldn't expect to talk to my kids about that, because that develops over time.  Also, good premarital counseling will always cover that sort of thing - less personal than mom and dad talking about it.

 

Of course no has to mean no, and that's where you start in a relationship. 

 

Re: the second bolded:  I wouldn't teach my kids to ignore the "meh" feeling out of fear of porn, affairs, or divine retribution.  But I would advise them to take a moment (in their own heads) to analyze the "meh" feeling and see where it's coming from, how frequent it is, etc, because that can be a signal for other problems.  In a good relationship, "meh" for no other reason than "I don't feel like doing this with this person right now" should be pretty infrequent (relative term).  

 

[Χά�ων]

I think I see some of the disconnect.

 

If one of us is doing something, the other is not going to approach them for sex.

 

I'm in the middle of doing dishes or laundry? He's not going to suggest anything. He can see I'm doing something. More likely, he's got his own work happening; he's not sitting around doing nothing but daydreaming about sex while I am doing chores.

 

If one of us isn't feeling well, the other will know it. We live together; if he's sick, I know it. He doesn't have to say "no, I'm sick." If I am in a foul mood for whatever reason, or stressed about something that is going to happen the next day (for example), he's not going to approach me because he knows I wouldn't be amenable. If one of us is clearly exhausted at the end of the day and practically falling asleep standing up, the other can tell it would be a non-starter.

 

So there's not much opportunity to say no. Even if we did, it wouldn't be a flat no with nothing else. I think that is rude in a marriage [ETA: a loving, not abusive, one]. "No, I'm exhausted tonight." "No, I think I'm coming down with something." "No, I am too distracted thinking about the meeting I have tomorrow, once that's over I'm pretty sure I'll be more enthusiastic." That's the kind of communication I think some of us are talking about.

 

On the other hand, if one of us is feeling down and could use some extra affection, and the other is feeling "meh, I am not really into this right now but I can see it would make him/her happy" then... we'll go for it and more likely than not, the "meh" feeling will go away. Even if the "meh" feeling doesn't go away, it's still worth it. If the feeling was beyond "meh" and into "this is torture" then there is another problem and that has to be addressed.

 

Dishes or laundry is an example. I do not sit and just chill or watch tv/movies. I am always busy. I always have a project going, currently I am reorganzing the kitchen and pantry and moving the wine into a makeshift wine room in the basement. If I am sitting still I am sick or working on the computer. If he did not initiate while I was doing something then sex would be limited to bedtime, and where is the fun in that? Sex is not limited to one time of day.

[Joker]

boy, sometimes reading threads are a real eye opener. I must be a sex crazy hussy. I have never said no ever. Neither has DH to me. If one of us feels like it the other is more than willing.

 

 

One thing I realized is that even though I sometimes say no, I could still be saying yes more than others. So, maybe part of the issue is that dh and I have no problem sometimes saying no because of how often we say yes.

[Dmmetler]

You obviously had the wrong type of car!

 

Most of my high school friends got the family station wagon as the kids' car, and mom got something new and smaller. I often wonder, looking back now, if parents realized just how amenable station wagons were to being a portable bedroom...

[Pam in CT]

re portable bedrooms

Most of my high school friends got the family station wagon as the kids' car, and mom got something new and smaller. I often wonder, looking back now, if parents realized just how amenable station wagons were to being a portable bedroom...

 

It occurred to me years too late, that demonstrating the comfort and ease of car-camping in the Subaru hatchback to my kids when they were little, could, uh, backfire on me when they were grown.

 

:lol:

[Guest]

Dishes or laundry is an example. I do not sit and just chill or watch tv/movies. I am always busy. I always have a project going, currently I am reorganzing the kitchen and pantry and moving the wine into a makeshift wine room in the basement. If I am sitting still I am sick or working on the computer. If he did not initiate while I was doing something then sex would be limited to bedtime, and where is the fun in that? Sex is not limited to one time of day.

Well, different strokes for different folks.

 

I like order. For me, having pretty much a regularly expected time/day/place has bypassed a heck of a lot of asymetrical expectations. YMMV.

[Bluegoat]

I think the idea that having sex when you don't particularly want to in and of itself is abusive or rape is pretty much bs.

 

Sure, there are relationships where people are abused into sex.  There are relationships where people are abused by withholding sex.

 

Adults are still capable of choosing to do things for all kinds of reasons.  I can eat my MILs dinner even though I would rather not, because I don't want to hurt her feelings.  I can watch a movie I never would choose with my kids just because it makes them happy. 

 

I spent 7 years totally uninterested in sex while I was nursing babies. Sometimes I did it anyway though I didn't get much out of.  I was not worried about my dh having an affair or becoming addicted to porn.  I did know that he is a person who closely related affection and intimacy, and it made him unhappy.  (And frankly, he put up with a lot more "no" during that time than I did having sex mostly for his benefit.)

 

That is not some kind of rape culture thing, or anyone being abusive, or anything else.  It's trying to do something that is important to someone else and have their needs and happiness cared for as well as your own.

 

 

[marbel]

re portable bedrooms

 

It occurred to me years too late, that demonstrating the comfort and ease of car-camping in the Subaru hatchback to my kids when they were little, could, uh, backfire on me when they were grown.

 

:lol:

 

1970s conversion vans.

[Liz CA]

1970s conversion vans.

 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic but scrolling through marbel's link, I found the kind of VeeDub my uncle refurbished and took us (cousins and me) all to Italy. Oh my, memories.

 

[goldberry]

Often I come across the idea that it is unrealistic to expect young people to wait for marriage. I've never understood why. To my mind, it is in many ways an extension of the consent concept.

 

 

 

 

Maize, you are spot on!  

 

Disclaimer first, I do recognize it's not always easy, and if DD ends up doing it unplanned or even makes a choice to do it planned, I'm not going to think she is horrible or irredeemable or broken.  She has to make her own choices, and there are MANY of those, not just sexual choices.

 

But, really, whether or not it's "easy" or "biologically natural" doesn't really change anything if you are doing it to be in line with God's standards.  You either believe that God's reasoning is best, or you don't.  The idea that it's not possible is absurd really.  As Maize explained so nicely, it's just another expression of self-control.  Young adults (men or women) are not slaves to their biological urges and they are not incapable of making a choice to exercise self-control for *various* reasons, including a desire to please God - if that is their choice.  Now, if it is about pleasing parents really and not actually pleasing God, then of course, that desire will eventually wear off and not be sustaining them.

[goldberry]

Well, I didn't think I was that atypical to have an initial ambivalence but end up enjoying myself anyway. 

 

This describes a large percentage of my sex life.  There is a difference between "not really in the mood" and "get away from me or I will stab you with something."  When I make an effort to change "not really in the mood" to "not really in the mood, but I might be persuaded" things go much better.

[goldberry]

I can't imagine being married to someone and being afraid that person would go elsewhere if I didn't have sex as often as they wanted.

 

 

This.  If I felt that was even a possibility, that would not be a motivation AT ALL to improve our sex life.  The fact that I love my husband and that I respect his needs is a motivation if the situation arises.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

This.  If I felt that was even a possibility, that would not be a motivation AT ALL to improve our sex life.  The fact that I love my husband and that I respect his needs is a motivation if the situation arises.

 

I agree with this, but there seems to be a sizable population that doesn't.  I always get sucked into reading the Dan Savage column at the back of our local paper, and that seems to be the view he takes - if a partner in an otherwise good marriage isn't putting out sexually, one option to consider to meet sexual needs is to have an affair. 

 

If someone believes that, then it does seem to suggest that if you don't want an affair, or to be left, you might have to compromise about sexual activity.

[goldberry]

 

If someone believes that, then it does seem to suggest that if you don't want an affair, or to be left, you might have to compromise about sexual activity.

 

Grrrr.  That would make me so mad, I would never want to have sex with that person.  It's the age old difference between doing something out of love and doing it out of fear.

[EmseB]

I was thinking about this discussion with a fresh brain this morning and I think so much of this just comes down to individual relationships and how individuals communicate with each other.

 

The idea that I would need a stern "no means no" attitude within my marriage is baffling to me.  We have mutual respect and communication that doesn't necessitate that kind of attitude, nor do we communicate in that specific way.  The fact that my husband might interrupt a task I'm involved in to be physically affectionate without asking first does not bother me at all.  The fact that much of our communication is unspoken or through body language or general clues throughout our day does not bother me.  The fact that I would be hurt if I got a flat "no" to an initiation of intimacy is partly how I'm wired and partly how our communication plays out in this area.  We don't operate as if the other person is a stranger in a bar hitting on us, we don't operate as if we are boyfriend or girlfriend in a newish relationship where we don't know where we stand as far as physical intimacy is concerned.  Sometimes we do things for each other that might not have been at the forefront of things we wanted to do at that moment.  It doesn't have to work for anyone else, and it doesn't make me a victim or promoter of rape culture, it doesn't make me abused, it doesn't make our relationship unhealthy, and it doesn't mean I (or my DH) are pressured or coerced or guilted or manipulated into anything we don't want to do.  Our marriage just doesn't operate on that level in any way.  We both ultimately only do what we want to do.

 

But, my marriage is not anyone else's marriage and I'm happy in my marriage, so others can teach and model differently if they so choose.  It would probably be helpful if we didn't heap the whole load of judgement above on others' lives, but that's probably not going to go away any time soon.

[DesertBlossom]

This. If I felt that was even a possibility, that would not be a motivation AT ALL to improve our sex life. The fact that I love my husband and that I respect his needs is a motivation if the situation arises.

I've never looked at it like if I don't hurry and put out DH is going to get it elsewhere. Both of us believe adultery and sex outside of marriage is wrong so neither of us is going to be jumping to that if there's a lull in our sex life. However, if sex has been so neglected for so long that a person feels their spouse doesn't even care about their needs, it will affect other aspects of their relationship and damage the marriage in the long term. They may not ever cheat on their spouse, but there's a good chance they aren't happy in the relationship.

[goldberry]

I've never looked at it like if I don't hurry and put out DH is going to get it elsewhere. Both of us believe adultery and sex outside of marriage is wrong so neither of us is going to be jumping to that if there's a lull in our sex life. However, if sex has been so neglected for so long that a person feels their spouse doesn't even care about their needs, it will affect other aspects of their relationship and damage the marriage in the long term. They may not ever cheat on their spouse, but there's a good chance they aren't happy in the relationship.

 

I totally agree with this.  I just think it's like I said, it would be different to me if I felt I was doing it out of fear, like, "I sure don't want to push him to seek sex elsewhere!" rather than love, "He really needs this and if it is becoming a problem versus a once-in-awhile thing, I need to work with him to figure it out." 

 

Same behavior, different motivations.

[Pam in CT]

:lol:

1970s conversion vans.

Oh.my.goodness.  How do I love this, let me count the ways.

 

1.  "Lotharious."  'Nuff said.

2.  Lothario's expression, which really can only be described as "Triumphant."

3.  Shag carpet?  Bubble windows?  CB radios??!!  My kids don't even know what these things are, which I realize now represents a grievous oversight on my part.

4.  The bolded below...

 

 

Once upon a time — or more accurately, back in the 1970s — the van reigned supreme. Riding-in right on the heels of the fading muscle car era, the custom van became the ultimate self-expression vehicle– tricked-out and personalized to show all the world just how your bad self rolled. They were badass, man–  a portable pampered pad that allowed you to take all your extra-curricular activities of sorts (legal or lotharious) on the road– and there were custom shops on every corner back then that would customize your ride with a kick-ass sound system, lighting, shag carpeting, Captains chairs, beds, bubble windows, louvres, spoilers, mag wheels, custom horns, CB radios– and don’t forget to top it all off with a one-off airbrushed paint job depicting your choice of Wizard, Warlock, Wave or Western scenic. It may be time for a comeback, folks– especially with the home foreclosure rate being what it is…

 

... which really goes to show that there's some person in every possible crowd who can some silver lining in every cloud...

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[Tanaqui]

Katy, I've only ever heard about "porn addiction" from a small subset of the population which tends to have many things in common with each other and not with me. I know many people, male and female, who view porn, read and write erotica, and even outright attend orgies and all of these people have happy relationships. Your links aren't exactly scientific, they're popular press and *reddit*. The actual scientific literature is still debating whether this is a real thing... which does tend to imply that even if it is real for some people, it's not universal among all people who view porn.

[Χά�ων]

I've been thinking about this more. I wish I had a more eloquent way to describe what I am talking about.  I increasingly think the disconnect is a generational thing.  If you grew up with internet access and online porn, it is a different kind of danger than growing up with a stack of your dad's Playboys hidden in the back of the garage.  Even if you think porn is 100% fine, and completely moral, and have no qualms about religious implications, exploitation, or abuse in the histories of those involved contributing to their willingness, developing an addiction (and yes it can be an addiction) to online porn creates sexual dysfunction that is increasingly common in young men. And by addiction, I mean they become incapable of having normal sexual relationships with their wives.

 

I've literally heard from a male friend who going through a divorce, "Why go to the trouble of fantasizing about something when I can just go online?  Why go to the trouble of finding (his wife), romancing her, working her up when I have an urge? It's much simpler to take my phone to the bathroom and take care of the urge in two minutes. It's taken care of, I'm a better husband and I'm not bothering her." Never mind that they haven't had sex in six months and she's alternating between depression and thinking there is something wrong with her because her husband no longer wants her.

 

That kind of behavior can and does lead to men literally being incapable of having sex with their wives - they are so addicted to the dopamine rush of seeing new woman with every orgasm that they can't function with actual wife in front of them because she's boring. As a woman you don't realize it's a problem at the beginning of a relationship because new relationship hormones are running, but sooner or later the sex dwindles and you're like.... what happened?  Why is he no longer interested?  And if you're not aware of the problem, you assume the problem is with you.  It's not.  The guy's brain has been warped by porn.

 

This is a common problem these days.  I can think of more than five divorces off the top of my head in the 25-35 age group where porn was one of the biggest contributing factors to the divorce. In a couple cases they were waiting until marriage for sex and the wife had no idea that the reason the man was fine with waiting was because he was addicted to porn and was incapable of having a normal relationship.  And I know at least 3 more relationships where they nearly got divorced but the marriage worked out when the man quit looking at porn. In a couple of cases due to a really good therapist identifying the issue, and in another one because she figured it out by looking at browser history and issued an ultimatum.  I personally had a long term relationship end because of a porn addiction.  This is a real thing, it's probably going to be increasingly worse for young adults now that your average 12 year old knows more about sex from porn than many sex educators.

 

 

NSFW or kids links if you don't believe me:

• A website called .
• GQ Magazine: 
• A Reddit Thread:
• Former pickup artists who stopped watching porn:  
• Art of Manliness:  

So yeah, I think porn can be a very destructive thing.  I've seen that TED talk about how porn has warped young men's brains and the sex-positive feminist TED talk about how it should change because educational porn can be a good thing, but on the whole I have huge problems with it, and I would almost always, gladly and without fear, satisfy whatever urges DH has, not because I'm afraid or abused or anything negative, but because I love him and I love our intimate life and I prioritize keeping it that way.

 

I can absolutely see how if you're 40 or older and have no moral qualms about porn this wouldn't be an issue for you.  Chances are your DH's habits were well established before ubiquitous online videos could warp his desires.  But if you graduated college at any point after the year 2000, chances are very high that you have friends who have had relationships end because of porn addiction, even if they don't talk about why.  This is so common that literally every close friend I have that didn't wait until marriage for sex has at least one story about how porn caused a problem in a relationship of hers.

 

I am between the ages of 25 and 35 years old and I grew up with computers. I even looked at porn on the internet as a teenager. It has it's place.  

 

Katy, I've only ever heard about "porn addiction" from a small subset of the population which tends to have many things in common with each other and not with me. I know many people, male and female, who view porn, read and write erotica, and even outright attend orgies and all of these people have happy relationships. Your links aren't exactly scientific, they're popular press and *reddit*. The actual scientific literature is still debating whether this is a real thing... which does tend to imply that even if it is real for some people, it's not universal among all people who view porn.

This. 100% this.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Χά�ων

[Pam in CT]

Katy, for another perspective, I'll weigh in as an over-40 (ahem), card-carrying feminist who has always believed that pornography can be quite damaging to women, to men, and particularly to the relationships between them.  And that the instant ubiquity that online access has enable has exacerbated the problems, for those populations who are vulnerable to the problems.

 

My concern is that when a couple is in this kind of world....

 

.....

I've literally heard from a male friend who going through a divorce, "Why go to the trouble of fantasizing about something when I can just go online?  Why go to the trouble of finding (his wife), romancing her, working her up when I have an urge? It's much simpler to take my phone to the bathroom and take care of the urge in two minutes. It's taken care of, I'm a better husband and I'm not bothering her." Never mind that they haven't had sex in six months and she's alternating between depression and thinking there is something wrong with her because her husband no longer wants her.

 

That kind of behavior can and does lead to men literally being incapable of having sex with their wives - they are so addicted to the dopamine rush of seeing new woman with every orgasm that they can't function with actual wife in front of them because she's boring. As a woman you don't realize it's a problem at the beginning of a relationship because new relationship hormones are running, but sooner or later the sex dwindles and you're like.... what happened?  Why is he no longer interested?  And if you're not aware of the problem, you assume the problem is with you.  It's not.  The guy's brain has been warped by porn.

.......

.... she can't fix the problem.  

 

Not by putting out on demand, not by staying fit as a fiddle, not by keeping up the makeup regimen, not by investing ever more time and money on hairstyles and cute clothes, not through plastic surgery. 

 

If that is the marital problem -- and I do believe it is a real problem for some marriages -- it can only be solved by mutual respect, including his respect of her needs;  and commitment to working through the problem together.  If he's the one whose "brain is warped", the bulk of the hard work will have to come from him.  She can support him, but just like any other addiction, she can't do the heavy lifting for him.

 

 

[goldberry]

What Pam said.

 

I'm not in favor of porn, and yes it can destroy marriages.  But to imply that if a wife is accommodating enough sexually, it will prevent or fix a porn problem... that's something you should really think through, Katy.  Those two are not connected, and it's kind of concerning that you think that.

[DesertBlossom]

What Pam said.

 

I'm not in favor of porn, and yes it can destroy marriages. But to imply that if a wife is accommodating enough sexually, it will prevent or fix a porn problem... that's something you should really think through, Katy. Those two are not connected, and it's kind of concerning that you think that.

Maybe I am not connecting previous posts of hers, but Katy's post didn't come across to me like she was blaming the wife for a husband's porn use. In fact, it seemed she was saying that porn was the reason a husband might quit fulfilling his wife's needs, because he no longer found her exciting.

[Scarlett]

I think the idea that having sex when you don't particularly want to in and of itself is abusive or rape is pretty much bs.

 

Sure, there are relationships where people are abused into sex. There are relationships where people are abused by withholding sex.

 

Adults are still capable of choosing to do things for all kinds of reasons. I can eat my MILs dinner even though I would rather not, because I don't want to hurt her feelings. I can watch a movie I never would choose with my kids just because it makes them happy.

 

I spent 7 years totally uninterested in sex while I was nursing babies. Sometimes I did it anyway though I didn't get much out of. I was not worried about my dh having an affair or becoming addicted to porn. I did know that he is a person who closely related affection and intimacy, and it made him unhappy. (And frankly, he put up with a lot more "no" during that time than I did having sex mostly for his benefit.)

 

That is not some kind of rape culture thing, or anyone being abusive, or anything else. It's trying to do something that is important to someone else and have their needs and happiness cared for as well as your own.

QFT

[goldberry]

 

So yeah, I think porn can be a very destructive thing.  I've seen that

and the sex-positive feminist TED talk about

, but on the whole I have huge problems with it, and I would almost always, gladly and without fear, satisfy whatever urges DH has, not because I'm afraid or abused or anything negative, but because I love him and I love our intimate life and I prioritize keeping it that way.

 

 

 

 

Maybe I am not connecting previous posts of hers, but Katy's post didn't come across to me like she was blaming the wife for a husband's porn use. In fact, it seemed she was saying that porn was the reason a husband might quit fulfilling his wife's needs, because he no longer found her exciting.

 

Desert, I hope that was her point, but when I read the above paragraph, it seems like she is making a connection there... otherwise why mention those two things together like that?

 

ETA, not blaming necessarily, but seeming to connect the behaviors...

Edited March 2, 2016 by goldberry

[lmrich]

Not until you are ready to give up 9 months of your life for another's. You need to be mature enough to understand that you are 'playing' around with creating life. 

[Joanne]

I've been thinking about this more. I wish I had a more eloquent way to describe what I am talking about. I increasingly think the disconnect is a generational thing. If you grew up with internet access and online porn, it is a different kind of danger than growing up with a stack of your dad's Playboys hidden in the back of the garage. Even if you think porn is 100% fine, and completely moral, and have no qualms about religious implications, exploitation, or abuse in the histories of those involved contributing to their willingness, developing an addiction (and yes it can be an addiction) to online porn creates sexual dysfunction that is increasingly common in young men. And by addiction,....

 

I can absolutely see how if you're 40 or older and have no moral qualms about porn this wouldn't be an issue for you. Chances are your DH's habits were well established before ubiquitous online videos could warp his desires. But if you graduated college at any point after the year 2000, chances are very high that you have friends who have had relationships end because of porn addiction, even if they don't talk about why. This is so common that literally every close friend I have that didn't wait until marriage for sex has at least one story about how porn caused a problem in a relationship of hers.

Katy,

 

I am not Christian and we don't agree often. But I have to have your back on this one. You are absolutely correct and present the very real issue well.

 

I have done a lot of research and have seen what your describe in my practice and heard the same reports from other LPCs and MFTs.

[abba12]

I'll never understand how people can sit here complaining that a wife having sex when she feels 'meh' is rape/abuse

And then turn around and say porn is fine. Nevermind the women who are forced or coerced into it, and trust me, while more and more are doing it 'willingly' there is still a large group of forced and coerced, especially with the online, independent stuff. Never mind the abusive backgrounds that make them more likely to do it 'willingly' if they fall into that group, because frankly I've never met a porn actress who hadn't been abused in the past (and I've met a lot). Never mind the higher rate of death among porn actresses. Never mind the black market and trafficking that is inherently connected. Never mind the girls put on drugs in order to be able to do the acts which are often painful, and how entirely unpleasurable it is for the women. Never mind the escalating intensity and edgyness which has increased hugely in the past 10-20 years. Nevermind that porn is causing teenage boys to expect acts which would have been considered unusual or kinky a generation ago, like anal. Nevermind what those women are going through to create the porn, because whether they're 'willing' or forced, taking drugs or super clean, what they're doing is something most of you would never do yourselves. 

 

Obviously supporting and giving money to that industry (because ads give them money as well)  is a far better thing than a wife loving her husband and choosing to change her meh into a 'convince me'. 

 

I've been involved in the sex industry on many levels. The girls who go in, with no abuse background, totally by choice, are very rare, even if they're what people ignorantly choose to imagine everyone is. If you've watched porn for any reasonable period of time, I absolutely guarantee you, you've seen and given money to at least one rape, at LEAST one. Depending on the style of porn you watch it could be much more. And even the non-rapes are often more coercive than a wife changing her meh to yes.

Edited March 3, 2016 by abba12

[Scarlett]

What Pam said.

 

I'm not in favor of porn, and yes it can destroy marriages. But to imply that if a wife is accommodating enough sexually, it will prevent or fix a porn problem... that's something you should really think through, Katy. Those two are not connected, and it's kind of concerning that you think that.

Yes I agree with this.

 

Katy porn had a huge share in the destruction of marriage....it lead to affairs, but in all of those years I never stopped having sex with him.

 

Porn is a 100% deal breaker for me. It is devastating and I do believe there is science to back it up. But I am not going to go looking for links, so there ya go.

[Scarlett]

I'll never understand how people can sit here complaining that a wife having sex when she feels 'meh' is rape/abuse

And then turn around and say porn is fine. Nevermind the women who are forced or coerced into it, and trust me, while more and more are doing it 'willingly' there is still a large group of forced and coerced, especially with the online, independent stuff. Never mind the abusive backgrounds that make them more likely to do it 'willingly' if they fall into that group, because frankly I've never met a porn actress who hadn't been abused in the past (and I've met a lot). Never mind the higher rate of death among porn actresses. Never mind the black market and trafficking that is inherently connected. Never mind the girls put on drugs in order to be able to do the acts which are often painful, and how entirely unpleasurable it is for the women. Never mind the escalating intensity and edgyness which has increased hugely in the past 10-20 years. Nevermind that porn is causing teenage boys to expect acts which would have been considered unusual or kinky a generation ago, like anal. Nevermind what those women are going through to create the porn, because whether they're 'willing' or forced, taking drugs or super clean, what they're doing is something most of you would never do yourselves.

 

Obviously supporting and giving money to that industry (because ads give them money as well) is a far better thing than a wife loving her husband and choosing to change her meh into a 'convince me'.

 

I've been involved in the sex industry on many levels. The girls who go in, with no abuse background, totally by choice, are very rare, even if they're what people ignorantly choose to imagine everyone is. If you've watched porn for any reasonable period of time, I absolutely guarantee you, you've seen and given money to at least one rape, at LEAST one. Depending on the style of porn you watch it could be much more. And even the non-rapes are often more coercive than a wife changing her meh to yes.

Yes I have been scratching my head over this too. thank you for summing it up,so well.

[ktgrok]

This sounds awful, but I'm glad to hear that even our resident therapist can back up that porn can be so troubling. I've always had a visceral reaction to the entire idea, that I don't have to erotica. And felt that the women were very much taken advantage of. But people in my circle tend to believe they are well paid, healthy, etc etc because that is what they want to believe to be "sex positive" or what not. But to me it has always seemed like using women. It's good to know my knee jerk reaction is justified, even though I feel awful for those women who end up in that situation. 

[myfunnybunch]

I think porn is gross. I believe that porn can be damaging.

 

But it's not either/or: Either the wife has sex with her husband OR the husband turns to porn.

 

That's a false choice.

And it's a false choice based in the idea that men want sex and women submit to it. (Ew.)

 

How about this:

One spouse or partner chooses to say no AND the other partner respects that choice.

 

Then they wait for another day when they are both ready for yes at the same time.

 

Or one or both partners can take care of business individually.

 

Or the partner who feels amorous can wiggle his eyebrows madly and make his wife laugh, which might change her mind. (Wait, I think that might just be my dh. He's got my ticket, making me laugh. And he does respect "Fat chance, buster. Nice try.") Actually, I fall into the camp that boundaries around mind-changing attempts can evolve naturally and respectfully within a healthy intimate relationship as long as both parties are very clear that each individual has the last word when it comes to control and choice about their own body, and both parties are able to transmit and receive that communication clearly and respectfully.

 

Or each partner can speak their own need for intimacy, without pressure or expectation, and the two partners can come to some kind of understanding about the role of physical intimacy and the ebb and flow of desire in their marriage.

 

Or they can seek medical help and/or go to counseling if it's an ongoing issue.

 

None of those solutions involve a husband turning to porn because his wife won't satisfy him, because none of those solutions spring from the ideas that men are entitled to sex whenever they want it and must seek it out in other ways if their wife does not have sex with them.

[abba12]

But people in my circle tend to believe they are well paid, healthy, etc etc because that is what they want to believe to be "sex positive" or what not. 

 

I can't tell you how angry that sort of 'wilful ignorance' makes me. 

There is a small, small subset of well paid, healthy, happy sex industry workers. They are the ones talking pro-porn and doing interviews. They're the ones Diary of a Call Girl and other shows try to represent as normal. And yet even some of those have come out later to say they regretted it. And most are not in that privileged position.

 

Women in the sex industry experience Post Traumatic Stress Disorder at rates equivalent to veterans of combat war

The average life expectancy of a porn star is 37.43 years

Between 66%-90% of women in the sex industry were sexually abused as children

In one survey, 89% percent of women in the sex industry said they wanted to escape, but had no other means for survival.

 

A lot of people who are ok with porn are against prostitution. As much as the two sides have their own little fued going (each thinking they're more respectable than the other) I've been on both sides, and there's not many differences. In fact, if I had to go back and choose, from my experiences, I'd prefer prostitution over porn any day, absolutely no doubt. 

 

Yes, definitely a much better, more consensual option.  :cursing:

Edited March 3, 2016 by abba12

[Hoot]

1970s conversion vans.

Oh gosh, we had one of those when I was a kid. It had 2 captain's seats behind the front seats and the rest was a bed. As kids, we loved the bed. I'm guessing that any other teens may have eventually REALLY enjoyed that van.

[Joanne]

Even so, it not as if I'm going to advise my daughters to always say yes to their partners lest, spurned, they take up porn.

 

I'm anti - porn industry. So not a great defender of porn. I'm still not going to agree with this idea that the woman has to 'compete' with porn in a marriage. 

 

I'd walk away rather than compromise my own needs. And I'd hope my daughters did the same.

 

A discussion about porn and any harms involved ( yes, I do think there are some ) should, imo, be totally separate from the idea that no means no in marriage.

 

Oh, I agree. I am.....aghast at some of the "do it anyway" rhetoric here.

 

 

 

I am also anti-porn industry although porn "in theory" doesn't bother me.

[Tanaqui]

Not until you are ready to give up 9 months of your life for another's. You need to be mature enough to understand that you are 'playing' around with creating life.

 

There are many sexual activities people can engage in that run an approximately 0% chance of pregnancy. PiV is not the be-all and end-all of sex.

 

[Entropymama]

Funny, what about the tools and strategies to "help a spouse get in the mood" mentioned above?

 

Being married or in a relationship does not make it right. No is no. Reasons are not needed. If it is an ongoing problem then a conversation in another time and place could help the situation.

 

Put the situation into a different context. A guy hits on a girk at a bar, the girl says no, and he starts rubbing her back then nibbling on her ear. Anyone here think that is OK? I hope not. If it is not OK there, it is not OK in marriage.

 

Just an insert - when I think of 'tools and strategies to help a spouse get in the mood' I am not imagining anything coercive. I'm thinking of dh bringing me flowers and romantic cards or doing the dishes so I'm not so tired in the evenings.  These are the underhanded strategies he uses to coerce me. :) I think our own background and experiences color our feelings about these issues significantly. 

 

I'm in the 'do it when you don't want to' camp, but I think we're having a massive misunderstanding about what that means. To me, it doesn't actually mean 'do it when you don't want to'. If I don't want to, I don't do it. It means noticing when it's been a while and reminding myself what a great guy dh is, and how much I enjoy our *ahem* time together, and thinking that maybe I should give him a little encouragement or get something started. I have a pretty good drive but I'm busy and easily distracted, so, yes, sometimes I work to get myself in the mood. It also means that when he gives me the eye and I don't immediately feel it, I don't automatically say no but try to figure out why I don't want to. Am I just too busy thinking about other things? Do I need a shower first? Am I touched-out from having kids all over me all day? If it's something I can change, I will. If I'm genuinely too tired or cranky, I'll say so. 

 

As far as compatibility goes, I was dh's only partner and my own experiences stopped short of actual intercourse, so technically he's my only partner. Our compatibility has gone through different phases during our marriage, but some things are constant. I chose him because he is a selfless, generous, kind man. That translates into the bedroom. I imagine men who are selfish or greedy tend to be that way in all areas as well. I didn't need to have sex with him before our marriage to make sure we'd be okay. 

 

FTR, I think sex is for marriage but I don't judge others based on my faith's precepts if they don't share them. 

[againstthegrain]

Our kids are young but our message is:

"When you are ready to accept responsibility and raise a child of your own."

 

I understand there are many sexual activities that do not result in pregnancy, however if you partake in the appetizer we believe you will eat the meal. That's our perspective.

Edited March 3, 2016 by againstthegrain

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[foxbridgeacademy]

I hope we've prepared our children to make the right choices when the time comes.  I expect they'll have sex around the 17-19 year time period(with someone who cares about them), I hope they don't marry the first person they have relations with and I hope when they do choose a life partner they don't make it legal just because we did or because society expects them too.  I hope they are in their relationships because they love the person each and every day and know that who they've been with in the past makes not a single bit of difference to how much they are loved.

 

I married the first person I had sex with, if I had had more experience I'd have known better and steered clear of him from the start.  I got some "experience", kissed some frogs and a couple of almost princes before I found my husband, we've been together for almost 16 years.

Edited March 3, 2016 by foxbridgeacademy

[ktgrok]

There are many sexual activities people can engage in that run an approximately 0% chance of pregnancy. PiV is not the be-all and end-all of sex.

 

True, which is why we have such high rates of STDS, many of which are easily transmitted via the mouth/anus/and even hands. It is my understanding throat cancer is also now tied to HPV, on top of Gonorrhea, Syphillis, Chlamydia, Herpes, and HIV, all of which can be spread via oral and anal activities. HPV can be spread via the hands. And I don't care how much you educated teens, they for the most part are not going to use condoms for oral or manual activity. 

[Scarlett]

I thought of this thread last night. Dh actually said the words, "you are going to make me aren't you?" I almost burst out laughing. But I was afraid it might kill the mood or lesson my coercive tactics.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I was raised to believe that safer sex was normal. My mother put me on bc when I was 15. It really felt like she was giving me license to have sex even though her words countered her actions with stories about why it's better to wait. I took the license and ran. I was not mature enough or emotionally equipped to do what I was doing and it took decades to recover myself. Years of heartbreak and upset ensued along with deep feelings of being "used goods" because once i was ready for marriage the kind of men I found attractive were exactly the same sort I was told didn't exist anymore, but there they were and they wanted a woman who had waited. I regret sex before marriage. I wasn't the kind of person who could handle it well. Sex has always had meaning to me and i was never any good at pretending otherwise. I hope my children will wait for marriage.

[Tanaqui]

True, which is why we have such high rates of STDS, many of which are easily transmitted via the mouth/anus/and even hands. It is my understanding throat cancer is also now tied to HPV, on top of Gonorrhea, Syphillis, Chlamydia, Herpes, and HIV, all of which can be spread via oral and anal activities. HPV can be spread via the hands. And I don't care how much you educated teens, they for the most part are not going to use condoms for oral or manual activity. 

 

There's a reason that women who exclusively engage in sex with other women have such a low rate of HIV - oral sex on women isn't terribly conducive to the spread of disease.

 

HPV is fairly effectively prevented using a vaccine - and yes, you should get both your sons and your daughters vaccinated.

 

Use of toys generally doesn't spread disease unless you are sharing the toys without using a condom or cleaning them off, likewise for mutual masturbation.

 

Of course, nothing beats safe sex practices. You should still limit the number of partners, and you should still get tested regularly if you are sexually active but not monogamous (or if your partner is not monogamous or you have reason to believe they might not be faithful). But most people who are sexually active don't have that many partners over a lifetime. I believe the average for women is 4 and for men is 7 - well, obviously that doesn't make much sense unless men have a lot of sex with other men, but even if we assume men are exaggerating the numbers, it's still not that many over a lifetime. (Women could also be lying, but since the cited number is smaller, I don't much care right now.)

 

That translates into the bedroom. I imagine men who are selfish or greedy tend to be that way in all areas as well. I didn't need to have sex with him before our marriage to make sure we'd be okay.

 

Perhaps, but there's a lot more to life than simply whether or not the other person is demanding and selfish. People can have wildly different sex drives, or they can enjoy extremely different things. This sort of mismatch can make for some rough times.

[Χά�ων]

Blah, kidney infections suck. Sorry to have left the conversation.

 

Point of interest. No all porn involves slaves or even actual people. There is a not small amount of animated porn out there.

[Entropymama]

 

Perhaps, but there's a lot more to life than simply whether or not the other person is demanding and selfish. People can have wildly different sex drives, or they can enjoy extremely different things. This sort of mismatch can make for some rough times.

 

True. My point was that he is a generous and selfless person, so any difficulties that might arise due to mismatched desires would be handled by him in a generous and selfless way. I try to be the same for him. 

 

As someone else stated, some amount of incompatibility is inevitable in marriage. I think it can generally be worked through. 

[Mergath]

I was raised to believe that safer sex was normal. My mother put me on bc when I was 15. It really felt like she was giving me license to have sex even though her words countered her actions with stories about why it's better to wait. I took the license and ran. I was not mature enough or emotionally equipped to do what I was doing and it took decades to recover myself. Years of heartbreak and upset ensued along with deep feelings of being "used goods" because once i was ready for marriage the kind of men I found attractive were exactly the same sort I was told didn't exist anymore, but there they were and they wanted a woman who had waited. I regret sex before marriage. I wasn't the kind of person who could handle it well. Sex has always had meaning to me and i was never any good at pretending otherwise. I hope my children will wait for marriage.

 

If you had a man reject you for the sole reason that you weren't a virgin, trust me, you were probably better off without him.