Jump to content

Menu

Am I totally heartless?


Moxie
 Share

Recommended Posts

I've watched people mourn MJ, Whitney Houston, Robin Williams and now David Bowie. Every time I think, "how sad" but that's it. I honesty can't think of a single celebrity that has touched me to a degree that I would care when they died. Maybe because I grew up without much media? Or maybe I am just heartless?

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't really mind the others. It was sad but nothing I dwelled on. Bowie was more special to me for some reason, probably because his music has been in my life for years and he is one of my favorite artists, and one I didn't expect to go quite yet.

 

Like, I don't feel strongly if xyz president or actor or whoever dies, but I have a short list of people I know I'll grieve more. I just will. I even posted a thread about a month ago to that effect, if I recall. We don't mourn or miss every person the same way, especially celebrities, but most people have one or two who just touch them more. Maybe for you it's a certain pope or author. Bowie was one of my few.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I should add that I don't even mourn friends and relatives very deeply with a few exceptions. Some people just grab one's heart more and there is no rhyme or reason to it from the outside.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is nothing wrong with you and nothing wrong with people who feel saddened by this or any other death.  Sometimes celebrities have touched people in ways that affect them deeply.  This can be particularly true with music, I think.  And authors, probably.  There is a sense of loss as in "I loved his music, and now there will be no more." 

 

All the reminiscing about David Bowie today has brought back a lot of great memories for me.  It reminded me of the friend I went to his concert with, the buying of tickets back in the day when we lined up outside of record stores at 4am the day the tickets went on sale.   Standing in the amphitheater, in awe of his talent and showmanship.  Sure, it's going to make me a little sad, that that's over.

 

Not as sad as when someone I know in real life dies, but... still sad.

 

I did not feel the same way about others you mentioned in the OP because I have no memories associated with them.

 

 

Edited by marbel
  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've watched people mourn MJ, Whitney Houston, Robin Williams and now David Bowie. Every time I think, "how sad" but that's it. I honesty can't think of a single celebrity that has touched me to a degree that I would care when they died. Maybe because I grew up without much media? Or maybe I am just heartless?

 

Nope.

The "without much media" may be part of it.  If you didn't bond emotionally to their work, why would you mourn them?  (I mean, unless you knew them personally, whether you knew their work or not.)

 

Heartless?  Nah.  It's a personality type thing.  People react differently.  I'm done feeling guilty because I don't fit a particular stereotype.  Some people connect emotionally very easily.  Others don't.  It's just different.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm right there with you. I don't even know most celebrities, and I don't understand why people care about celebreties at all and, for example, pay attention to their opinions or listen to their advice - that's the most bizarre thing to me.

The bliss of living without TV.

Edited by regentrude
  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm saddened when I hear about pretty much anyone's death because I feel sorry not only for their suffering, but also for the loved ones they left behind.

 

David Bowie had a wife, a grown ds, and a 15yo dd, and I am sure it was tremendously painful for them to watch him suffer while he was fighting the cancer, and undoubtedly they are now devastated by his death. So yes, I do think it's a little heartless to not care at all that he (or anyone else, celebrity or not) passed away.

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you are heartless. I'm the same way. I am not huge on TV, movies, music...so more than half of the time I don't even know who they are (like this last time, no clue who he was). I do pray for their soul and hope they died in peace and go to heaven, but no, I don't mourn their death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel an intellectual sadness when I hear about someone dying who I don't personally know.  I know those close to them are feeling pain and I feel sorry for them for a moment.  I don't know any celebrities personally so I have no emotional connection to them at all so it doesn't matter if it's a celebrity whose work I connected with or not, I don't feel more than the same intellectual sadness I feel for anyone else dying who I don't personally know.

If someone I personally know dies or their loved one dies, I feel emotional sadness for them on a deeper level for much longer.

I am mystified at people connecting emotionally with celebrities they don't personally know.  I think it's as weird to care what a celebrity say about a topic that isn't their expertise (acting, singing, movie making, visual arts, etc.) as it is to care what my plumber or the substance abusing homeless guy has to say about it.  Sure, everyone's entitled to their option and is free to speak it, by why someone cares more about the celebrity's opinion on any given topic is bewildering to me.  Why they care what goes on with a celebrity off screen or off album is just as confusing to me.

I completely understand someone interested in acting wanting to hear about acting from a successful actor.  Same with screen writing, movie making, book writing, dancing and such. 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've watched people mourn MJ, Whitney Houston, Robin Williams and now David Bowie. Every time I think, "how sad" but that's it. I honesty can't think of a single celebrity that has touched me to a degree that I would care when they died. Maybe because I grew up without much media? Or maybe I am just heartless?

 

I cried over Michael Landon and Bill Bixby, although I wouldn't say that I "mourned." I was sad (and shocked) about Robin Williams, but I didn't cry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sometimes celebrities have touched people in ways that affect them deeply.  This can be particularly true with music, I think.  And authors, probably.  There is a sense of loss as in "I loved his music, and now there will be no more." 

 

You said what I was thinking, but couldn't articulate.  Thank you.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember how shocked and saddened we were in college back when Lennon was shot. And then Robin William's suicide made my heart hurt, too. But my younger neighbor dying in her 40's from colon cancer, leaving three young kids behind - now that was and still is SAD.

Edited by JFSinIL
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am briefly saddened to hear about the passing of celebrities, but not in an emotional way. I sympathize for their family and friends, I feel regret that their contributions to art or politics or whatever have ceased, but I never cry and I can't say I am affected personally. When Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston died, for example, I put their channels on Pandora for a few days for my kids to listen to and appreciate their legacies. I'll probably do that for David Bowie too. 

 

I'm not a really emotional person in general, though- at least not anymore. I don't cry for commercials, movies, or books. I don't cry over the news. I may find something upsetting in the real world, I may send donations, write letters in support of something, or have a discussion about it with my kids in a what can we do/how should people respond kind of way- but I almost never feel emotionally connected to people and events that I have no personal connection to. Even with people I am close to or know, I can't imagine sitting on a couch and crying about something all day or for more than a few minutes. I had a lot of loss when I was younger and used to be more emotional but not much surprises me anymore. It's not like I don't care, it's just that crying and getting all worked up isn't how I usually respond to sad or upsetting stimuli. 

 

I used to think when people said they were crying about something on tv that it was like saying LOL. I thought it meant they were sad, but not really crying, because I couldn't imagine actually crying about something on tv. Now that I'm older, I realize that many people actually do cry and feel upset about things like that- and it's not weird. Then I thought maybe I was weird or a sociopath because I didn't; but I don't think so. I think it's part of the human variery- people are different.

 
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

you're not heartless.

 

when I was very young (and due to my upbringing) had a big desire to "feel" connected and valued-by to someone, somewhere.  I was more voyaristic in "celebrities".  as I developed confidence in myself and my own worth - and satisfcation in my own REAL life with REAL people and REAL connections - I moved on.

 

I pay little attention to celebrities.  and I certainly don't go around mourning deaths (of only a very very select few) beyond a moment or two. if that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've watched people mourn MJ, Whitney Houston, Robin Williams and now David Bowie. Every time I think, "how sad" but that's it. I honesty can't think of a single celebrity that has touched me to a degree that I would care when they died. Maybe because I grew up without much media? Or maybe I am just heartless?

 

I'm with you.  I can't fathom being heartbroken over someone I really don't know.  I think the closest thing to it was when Robin Williams died.  I felt sad and touched that he made the world laugh and yet it came at a great sacrifice of not feeling he could reach out and get help.  Sadness.... but I have also wondered if I lack compassion?  I don't think so?  I just don't mix real life with not in my real world.  But, honestly?  I find the same problem being here.  While I admire and like many of the moms here, I also don't let myself get terribly attached to pseudonames that we use here on TWTM.  Even though this is "real" in a very false way, it does sometimes feel like characters... Like we all play a part.  You just know who will agree with you, who won't, and who will find a way to argue and be snarky.  It's a given.  It's just odd.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel an intellectual sadness when I hear about someone dying who I don't personally know.  I know those close to them are feeling pain and I feel sorry for them for a moment.  I don't know any celebrities personally so I have no emotional connection to them at all so it doesn't matter if it's a celebrity whose work I connected with or not, I don't feel more than the same intellectual sadness I feel for anyone else dying who I don't personally know.

 

If someone I personally know dies or their loved one dies, I feel emotional sadness for them on a deeper level for much longer.

 

 

 

And maybe this what I'm not drawing a distinction in between.  I think it's sad that someone passed from cancer and that someone else is mourning.  But I don't feel sad as though my world has changed, or as though I've actually been touched with pain.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, you're not heartless. You feel what you feel. I assume you don't go to people in mourning and go "Gosh, that's dumb, it's not like he was somebody you knew!" yes? Then you're in the clear.

 

So long as you don't go out mocking other people, or at least keep it inside your own head where it won't hurt anybody, then you can't reasonably be accused of being heartless.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was extremely bummed about Princess Diana. I think her mom reminded me of my mom. And -- I know I sound like a nut -- but I think it was way too convenient that she died. (Especially since she'd just talked a few months prior to Martin Bashear about her in laws wanting to off her.)

 

Otherwise I'm sad for the people, but nothing lasting.

 

Alley

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And maybe this what I'm not drawing a distinction in between. I think it's sad that someone passed from cancer and that someone else is mourning. But I don't feel sad as though my world has changed, or as though I've actually been touched with pain.

This is a good point. I'm sad and bummed out that he is dead. I had a few minutes of 'no way! It can't be!'. No tears, no depression, just feeling unsettled and a bit down when thinking on it. That is mild grieving for me. And it's miles above what I've experienced for any other person - president, actor, musician, etc. Robin Williams, for example, was just a 'sad, I wish he hadn't suffered so' moment. No reminiscing or anything. But there is definitely degree. And it isn't like losing a family member.

 

We may be using these words differently. But thinking on someone's passing and feeling some emotional effect relating to it is what I'm referring to. I didn't cry at the funerals of my own relatives, not a single one. I didn't cry when I lost a baby. I don't cry unless I'm under severe duress. That doesn't mean I don't grieve or mourn in varying degrees, but that mine just looks different from someone else's. I'm not a demonstrative person with my emotions.

 

It's an interesting discussion. But what some of us might be saying on the other thread may not be the meaning you are hearing because of our different habits and frames of reference. As I related in that thread about who we'd mourn or miss, some people touch us more for reasons that are hard to explain. That doesn't mean we're bawling in a corner or laying out bouquets. Some folks do, some folks don't, but either way not everyone has uniform detachment to people outside their personal circle.

 

Life goes on, but some individuals give us more personal pause at their passing than others. They just do. It doesn't make it right or wrong :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was extremely bummed about Princess Diana. I think her mom reminded me of my mom. And -- I know I sound like a nut -- but I think it was way too convenient that she died. (Especially since she'd just talked a few months prior to Martin Bashear about her in laws wanting to off her.)

 

Otherwise I'm sad for the people, but nothing lasting.

 

Alley

Di was distressing to my fairly unemotional stepfather, too. It was a few years after we left the UK and we were watching a James Bond marathon when they cut away to the update. I was just a kid but I remember him muttering that it had to be a joke, no way. And as we soaked in the footage of the mangled limo I think we both chatted about what a loss that was. No tears or anything, but I don't recall hearing him express anything even close for another famous person.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've watched people mourn MJ, Whitney Houston, Robin Williams and now David Bowie. Every time I think, "how sad" but that's it. I honesty can't think of a single celebrity that has touched me to a degree that I would care when they died. Maybe because I grew up without much media? Or maybe I am just heartless?

 

I'm the same way.  I never did get overly excited about celebrities or musicians - even as a teen.  I remember seeing friends' rooms that were plastered with posters and thinking that was weird.  I guess if I was never a huge fan while they were alive it makes sense that celebrity deaths don't bother me.

 

I grew up with a lot of media, but I've never felt emotionally attached to a celebrity.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't really affect me either when a celeb dies of natural causes.  We're all gonna die sooner or later.  I didn't think DB was shockingly young either.

 

I always wonder why we always go on about how great someone was after they die, rather than when the person is alive.  Often I don't even hear of a "celebrity" until he/she has died, and pretty soon I know more about him than I know about myself.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree. I could have cared less about any of those people. "Celebrity" is not a big thing for me. I could never imagine myself asking for an autograph, waiting in line, wearing so and so's tshirt. Lol

That said, I must admit that I did cry when Steve Irwin and Captain Phil (Deadliest Catch) died. But, they seemed more like real people to me :).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone mentioned emotionally bonding with the music and that's totally what it's about for me. I discovered David Bowie's music at an age where music was my everything. Some of his music felt like it belonged to me. It didn't obviously, but it's about being moved, experiencing happiness and beauty in the world at a time where much of the world seemed ugly. It helped that his stuff was unique too. 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No.

 

I feel empathy for his suffering. It's terribly sad to be widowed...to lose a parent...to lose a friend.

 

Maya Angelou's death hit me the hardest, but that's extremely relative because I was just very briefly bummed to know I'd not read anything new from her (along with generic sympathy for her friends and family).

 

ETA--I do not, in any way whatSOever think other ppl should feel like I do about anything. Much less DEATH, which is this huge, overwhelming thing in and of itself. I get why ppl grieve.

Edited by OKBud
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was extremely bummed about Princess Diana. I think her mom reminded me of my mom. And -- I know I sound like a nut -- but I think it was way too convenient that she died. (Especially since she'd just talked a few months prior to Martin Bashear about her in laws wanting to off her.)

 

Otherwise I'm sad for the people, but nothing lasting.

 

Alley

 

huh?  she had a tense (at best) relationship with her mother.

and sometimes, drunks crash cars.  especially when driving fast trying to evade papparazzi.

 

Yep to the bolded.

 

And yeah, no bouquet laying here, but some tears and real sadness. 

 

If some people think that means I don't have a REAL life with REAL people in it, that's their problem, not mine ( but does come across as just a wee bit judgmental.)

 

I'm sorry I apparently have offended you. 

I tried to make clear I was one of those who watched diana's wedding broadcast over and over the day they got married. (I was a young single.)  I read the celebrity PR   - etc.

now, I've moved on.  I really dont' care what you do with your time.

 

I've given some pause to robin williams death - but that was more the manner of it - NOT the death itself.  he was a brilliant and gifted comedian.  but I also understand some of what his children are going through, and I have compassion for them, as my father also commited suicide.  but they are in the public eye.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think perhaps I make a distinction between a celebrity and an artist.

 

In my mind, David Bowie was an artist.  Of course he was a celebrity too, but not like, say, the Kardashians or Paris Hilton who are pretty much famous for being famous.  (Not sure the latter is a celebrity anymore.)   He contributed something meaningful (in my opinion) to the world.  To me a person who is  a celebrity simply because he or she is famous does not have the same impact. 

Edited by marbel
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to be pretty unemotional. That all changed when I got pregnant the first time. I remember crying at a Hershey's Chocolate Kiss commercial (where the kisses are ringing bells - no idea why I cried).

 

We don't watch TV here, but I sure have emotional ties to certain people to whom I have fond memories but didn't know personally. I am even more emotional since my father died a few years ago. Knowing a 15 year old lost her dad just added to my sad feelings today.

 

I think it would be a pretty soppy world if everyone cried at the opening of Kmarts like my mom does and I do now.  :sad:

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If JK Rowling dies in my lifetime, I guarantee I would be shocked and sad. I think the creativity behind the Harry Potter stories is just so special and meaningful to me. The thought of that being over in the final way is very sad. I felt this way about Robin Williams, too, because he was my favorite comedic actor of all time and some of his movies and characters he played are my favorite comedic characters of all time. Patch Adams. Mrs. Doubtfire. Genie, the teacher from Dead Poets Society, Mork.

 

Generally speaking, though, celebrity deaths don't often bother me beyond a brief feeling of sadness...and I feel dismayed at the waste if drugs/alcohol were factors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you're heartless. I can honestly say that only one celebrity death has had a personal impact on me - Robin Williams. I'm not entirely sure why, other than that his laughter and comedy made it possible for ME to get over some hurdles when I was younger, and now I know that he was struggling while he made others feel better.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't really mind the others. It was sad but nothing I dwelled on. Bowie was more special to me for some reason, probably because his music has been in my life for years and he is one of my favorite artists, and one I didn't expect to go quite yet.

 

Like, I don't feel strongly if xyz president or actor or whoever dies, but I have a short list of people I know I'll grieve more. I just will. I even posted a thread about a month ago to that effect, if I recall. We don't mourn or miss every person the same way, especially celebrities, but most people have one or two who just touch them more. Maybe for you it's a certain pope or author. Bowie was one of my few.

 

 

And I am surprised he has lived this long!  With his promiscuity heterosexually and homosexually in an era when AIDS was rampant, and his heavy drug use, I am actually shocked he lived through all of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to be pretty unemotional. That all changed when I got pregnant the first time. I remember crying at a Hershey's Chocolate Kiss commercial (where the kisses are ringing bells - no idea why I cried).

 

We don't watch TV here, but I sure have emotional ties to certain people to whom I have fond memories but didn't know personally. I am even more emotional since my father died a few years ago. Knowing a 15 year old lost her dad just added to my sad feelings today.

 

I think it would be a pretty soppy world if everyone cried at the opening of Kmarts like my mom does and I do now.  :sad:

 

I cry over the strangest things.  There is no telling what will set me off.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cry over the strangest things. There is no telling what will set me off.

So caveating with all that stoicism I mentioned earlier and never crying? One thing guaranteed to choke me up is trying to sing to my kids. By two bars in I'm sniffling. I have no idea why it gets to me so much!

Edited by Arctic Mama
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I am surprised he has lived this long! With his promiscuity heterosexually and homosexually in an era when AIDS was rampant, and his heavy drug use, I am actually shocked he lived through all of that.

I think I figured since he made it through all that he must have been bullet proof. He really cleaned his life up by the mid and late eighties and was quite a different person in habits, by many accounts. Iman was clearly a good influence on him :)

 

The multiple heart attacks were concerning but he survived what, six of them?! He just seemed like he had more years ahead of him. More years to create. Maybe some of it is that he has been a creative force my entire life and beyond it, so it just feels so sad and final to have that chapter shut. But fortunately his body of works remains :)

 

(That he and Angie didn't get HIV is kind of amazing, isn't it?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to be pretty unemotional. That all changed when I got pregnant the first time. I remember crying at a Hershey's Chocolate Kiss commercial (where the kisses are ringing bells - no idea why I cried).

hormones.  dd was a newborn for the last episode of mash. I WISH there had been a warning.  not a nice thing for a mother with a brand new baby to see! It really freaked me out. I do think I was much more affected because of hormones.

 

We don't watch TV here, but I sure have emotional ties to certain people to whom I have fond memories but didn't know personally. I am even more emotional since my father died a few years ago. Knowing a 15 year old lost her dad just added to my sad feelings today.

 

I think it would be a pretty soppy world if everyone cried at the opening of Kmarts like my mom does and I do now.  :sad:

then again - if everyone was soppy - the world might be a more gentle place.

 

I recently ordered the book - "Jimmy stewart - bomber pilot".  about his war years and early military career.  he always came across as such a nice guy (and I loved the philadelphia story).  when jimmy doolittle says . . . (If the war had gone on for another month, we'd have made him group commander.), that means something.  (his surprise appearance on the very last carol burnett show was very fun.  actually HER response to seeing him was very fun.)  he lived a good life

he acted becasue he thought it was fun.  it's interesting to see the contrasts between his real life - and his most famous role of george bailey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going to come on and say I am "heartless" too, but then I was reading the thread and people kept mentioning various celebrities that have passed away and I'm like - WHAT?!  NO!  NOT MR. ROGERS! - so, it seems that I do care about some celebrities being gone.  

 

I can't actually bring myself to read the whole thing because as I go along I keep finding out about people who are dead that I thought were still alive.  And I suppose it doesn't really matter in my life, but somehow it's unsettling.

Edited by Incognito
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think perhaps I make a distinction between a celebrity and an artist.

 

In my mind, David Bowie was an artist.  Of course he was a celebrity too, but not like, say, the Kardashians or Paris Hilton who are pretty much famous for being famous.  (Not sure the latter is a celebrity anymore.)   He contributed something meaningful (in my opinion) to the world.  To me a person who is  a celebrity simply because he or she is famous does not have the same impact. 

 

Right, this is my feeling.  It's not especially about this person being a celebrity.

 

I am inclined actually to think that simply categorizing all well-known people as "celebrities" is kind of drinking the poison of the celebrity culture. 

 

I'm not a really emotive person, but there are people who make a connection with people indirectly.  It might be someone who produced music or literature that is meaningful.  Or sometimes someone who is a great philanthropist.  To say that people like that have no meaningful connection to the wider community to me is saying that we really can't communicate through the arts, or through acting out of love for others.

 

If a great painter dies, why wouldn't we mourn that the special vision that belongs to that person is gone, won't throw light on new things that happen in the world, won't share it with us?

 

ETA - but I also think it is not a sign of heartlessness not to get emotional about such things.

Edited by Bluegoat
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't say heartless.  I would say pragmatic.  A moment of "Oh, that is sad news" It doesn't really matter in my every day life, moving on to the enxt thing.I was saddened by David Bowie as his music was a big part of my growing up.  I was saddened by Robon Williams as his comedy and movies were also a big part of my growing up.  I did not don black garb and full out mourn for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm right there with you. I don't even know most celebrities, and I don't understand why people care about celebreties at all and, for example, pay attention to their opinions or listen to their advice - that's the most bizarre thing to me.

The bliss of living without TV.

 

Regentrude, I know you are a scientist.  Is there a current well-known scientist, living right now, whose work you admire?  If so, when that person dies, will you have a bit of sadness over the loss of that person's talent, expertise, brilliance in his/her field?      I don't know... Stephen Hawking, Peter Higgs?    If you were alive when Einstein died (I don't think you were), do you think you would have felt sadness for that loss?

 

That is what some of us are talking about.  Not the person's celebrity per se, but the contributions the person made in the field for which they are famous - for example, music or other art.  

 

Honest questions; when I read over my post I think it might sound a little condescending but if so, I don't mean it to. 

 

(I don't care about the opinions of artists or other famous people. In fact it infuriates me to go to a concert and have the musician go off on a political talk.  Unless it is a fundraiser, stop spewing your opinions; pick up your guitar/sit down at the piano and play.)

 

 

 

Edited by marbel
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of my birth boards had severe drama and partially splintered over the death of Whitney.  :001_huh:  Definitely not my doing and it was such a train wreck to watch. We still talk about it to this day. 

 

I admit to having sadness over Kurt Cobain dying. I was 15 I was devastated. I was/am also sad about MJ, Adam Yauch from Beastie Boys, and now Bowie dying. I like music and these musicians were important to me at various points in my life. 

 

I was also really upset about the death of an author I read, but mostly because she left her last book on a cliff hanger and now I will never know.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...