S/O separation of church and state

[Moxie]

I was in the grocery store this morning about to buy wine when DH reminded me that we can't buy wine on Sunday in this state. How is that still a thing? Also, why is there no mail on Sunday?

[Word Nerd]

I was in the grocery store this morning about to buy wine when DH reminded me that we can't buy wine on Sunday in this state. How is that still a thing? Also, why is there no mail on Sunday?

We can't even buy wine in a grocery store here. The liquor stores battle hard to keep it that way.

[MrsBasil]

In our state we can not buy anything other than 3.2 beer in grocery stores(I think). Liquor stores and the recently ubiquitous micro breweries prefer it that way.

 

Until recently, liquor sales were closed on Sunday but that changed via our legislature.

[Matryoshka]

Leftovers from Puritans. I'm guessing there's still some who scream Christian persecution whenever voting to end them occurs.

 

Yep.  Blue laws, left over from the Puritans.  When I was a kid, no stores at all were allowed to be open on Sundays.  Those Blue laws finally got repealed.

 

[marbel]

Nm.  OT.

 

[gardenmom5]

We can't even buy wine in a grocery store here. The liquor stores battle hard to keep it that way.

 

 

I barely remember when you couldn't buy wine in the grocery store here. (80's?) but also not something I paid attention to - except all of a sudden there were entire rows devoted to wine.  Costco was the entity really pushing to overturn the state run liquor store monopoly on hard stuff.  grocery stores were happy to ride their coattails.

 

the state run liquor stores are basically out of business now - and lower prices.   the problem is, at least in grocery stores, they do get more underage drinkers access.  our local grocery has put the booze in a cage. wine and beer is still on the shelf.

like micheal's has spray paint in a cage . . .

 

and the state running the liquor stores was all about control and money. and they were loath to give it up.

Costco pushed a citizen initiative to open selling booze to grocery stores.  so - it was passed by voters.

[gardenmom5]

Yep.  Blue laws, left over from the Puritans.  When I was a kid, no stores at all were allowed to be open on Sundays.  Those Blue laws finally got repealed.

 

 

probably depends upon the state.   I remember when 7-11  being open from 7am - 11pm was a big. deal. grocery stores didn't open until 8 - 9am, and were closed by dinner time or shortly after.

 

I don't think it was a law so much as we weren't a 24/7 society.

 

but then - my great-uncle owned a regular grocery store that was probably smaller than a modern 7-11. 

[LucyStoner]

I was born in Texas. In the county that we lived, they had a blue law restricting the sale of rubber products on Sundays.

 

My mother had to take heavy duty meds for epilepsy and was told she couldn't nurse, so I was bottle fed from the get go.

 

Apparently I used to rip through the rubber nipples on my bottles. One Sunday my parents needed to buy some replacement nipples after mass. My dad went to the store but the clerk wouldn't sell them. My dad went back and forth trying to explain that a hungry baby was in the mix here and could they please make any exception. Finally when it was clear they could not reach an understanding, my father said that, fine, he was just going to have to steal them because he had a baby to feed but he was leaving the money for the bottle nipples, keep the change on the counter. Go ahead and call the police if you must, he'd take his chances. :P

 

The law was meant to stop the sale of condoms on Sundays but I guess they didn't want to put the word condom in the code or something.

[Debbi in Texas]

In Texas, you can buy wine and beer after 12 noon on Sunday.

[LucyStoner]

In Texas, you can buy wine and beer after 12 noon on Sunday.

Is that true statewide? I think blue laws tend to vary based in counties. Texas has some dry counties after all.

[Guest]

I used to live in a dry county. Everyone did meth.

 

I mean not me, LOL. But otherwise.

[Butter]

I was in the grocery store this morning about to buy wine when DH reminded me that we can't buy wine on Sunday in this state. How is that still a thing? Also, why is there no mail on Sunday?

 

You can't buy alcohol before 10am on Sundays in the part of Ireland where my MIL lives.  That sign made me laugh hysterically.  So you can't buy it 4 hours of the week.  Whoopee!

 

You can't buy alcohol in grocery stores in some states.  You can only buy it at liquor stores.

 

They've considered many times to cut mail delivery down by another day of the week.  7 days a week would actually be too often nowadays.

 

If there was mail delivery on Sunday we wouldn't have an amusing line - followed by owl delivery of lots of letters - in Harry Potter.

 

Really, why?  Because at some point some people made those things a law or policy and it was never changed.

[Butter]

The law was meant to stop the sale of condoms on Sundays but I guess they didn't want to put the word condom in the code or something.

 

So... no sex on Sundays?  Or is it no unplanned sex on Sundays?

 

And if it was rubber that was restricted, would sheepskin condoms or other non-rubber kinds be okay to sell on Sundays?

 

I am very amused by that law for some reason.  And what your dad did.  That is hilarious and awesome.

[LucyStoner]

So... no sex on Sundays? Or is it no unplanned sex on Sundays?

 

And if it was rubber that was restricted, would sheepskin condoms or other non-rubber kinds be okay to sell on Sundays?

 

I am very amused by that law for some reason. And what your dad did. That is hilarious and awesome.

Only unprotected sex on Sundays?

 

Yeah, that story captures my dad's whole personality pretty well.

[Daria]

I was in the grocery store this morning about to buy wine when DH reminded me that we can't buy wine on Sunday in this state. How is that still a thing? Also, why is there no mail on Sunday?

 

I imagine that the mail issue has more to do with controlling costs.   Delivering 7 days would be more expensive than 6, and if you're going to deliver 6 Sunday is probably the most likely day for people to request off, both for religious reasons and the logistical reasons that kids are off school.  

 

In our area, public schools are closed on Yom Kippur.  Not because they're observing the holiday, but because arranging the number of subs they'd need would be challenging and prohibitively expensive.  

[Joanne]

Why does Congress still open with prayer?

Why do courts still swear on the Bible?

[mamaraby]

Sorry, Moxie. We just came home from the grocery store with Mike's. Granted, it was from the separate liquor store area and I had to buy my Mike's separate from the groceries, but it was at least available on Sunday.

 

I think the only thing you can't do on Sunday in my state is buy a car from a dealership.

[Guest]

Sorry, Moxie. We just came home from the grocery store with Mike's. Granted, it was from the separate liquor store area and I had to buy my Mike's separate from the groceries, but it was at least available on Sunday.

 

I think the only thing you can't do on Sunday in my state is buy a car from a dealership.

Really?? Is that a law or just a custom?

[Butter]

Only unprotected sex on Sundays?

 

Yeah, that story captures my dad's whole personality pretty well.

 

Ah, yes.  I forgot that option!

[mamaraby]

Really?? Is that a law or just a custom?

Law. I actually think it's broader than dealerships and illegal for anyone to buy, sell, or trade a car on Sunday.

[Guest]

None of my states have had these, thankfully. I think they were misguided even in conception, well intended though they were.

[go_go_gadget]

California native here, and wow. I knew about some states having laws about wine in grocery stores and alcohol on Sundays, but rubber products and cars I'd never heard before. 

 

USPS does deliver Amazon packages on Sundays now; they have a special contract.

[Mommy22alyns]

Law. I actually think it's broader than dealerships and illegal for anyone to buy, sell, or trade a car on Sunday.

 

 

Wow.  That is fascinatingly... weird.

[Matryoshka]

USPS does deliver Amazon packages on Sundays now; they have a special contract.

Well that explains how my Amazon package mysteriously appeared today. I was wondering about that!

[mamaraby]

Wow. That is fascinatingly... weird.

Yup. We're one of 18 states with that particular Blue Law still on the books.

[gardenmom5]

California native here, and wow. I knew about some states having laws about wine in grocery stores and alcohol on Sundays, but rubber products and cars I'd never heard before. 

 

USPS does deliver Amazon packages on Sundays now; they have a special contract.

 

the first time that happened was just - weird.

 

because of labor laws- most employers must pay overtime just to have people work on sunday - not in every field anymore, but some of those with labor unions,  so, limited hours or even closed on sunday is common just to avoid higher labor costs.

[Joker]

In my state you can only buy alcohol to take home on Sundays from microbreweries (and they do a huge business). You can order it in restaurants but not to take home. Grocery stores can sell alcohol the other days but it can't be refrigerated. Liquor stores can sell it refrigerated buy have to be closed on Sundays. It's all completely ridiculous.

[Dicentra]

I live in small town rural Ontario.  There is no liquor (beer, wine, hard liquor - NONE) sold in the grocery stores.  The liquor store is open 6 days a week - not on Sunday.  The post office is open 5 days a week and there is no mail delivery on weekends.  The banks are open 5 days per week from 9:30 to 4:30 or 5:00.  Most stores in town are closed on Saturday by 4 or 5pm and stay closed until Monday morning.  The only stores open on Sunday are Safeway, Walmart, and Canadian Tire and those are only open until 8pm.  If you're looking to purchase something - anything - in a store on a Sunday night, you're outta luck.  Even most gas stations are closed on Sunday night by 10 or 11pm.

 

You just kind of get used to not being able to get things or do certain things outside of particular periods of time.  Whenever I'm in a city, having 24-hour ANYTHING feels like some sort of luxury. :)

[nansk]

Why do kids have summers off from school?

 

Same reason. Holdovers from the past.

Curious - what is it about summer?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

FYI - some of the biggest supporters of the "no booze on Sundays" in Georgia were the liquor store owners. They liked having a day they could be closed and not lose business to the grocery and convenience stores.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

FYI - some of the biggest supporters of the "no booze on Sundays" in Georgia were the liquor store owners. They liked having a day they could be closed and not lose business to the grocery and convenience stores.

 

 

Same with the states with laws regarding car dealerships.  The dealerships have fought to keep the laws on the books so they can have a day off each week without worrying about the other dealerships being open.

[teachermom2834]

I can't buy wine without crossing county lines any day of the week  :huh: Just moved here a few months ago.  Not only is there no wine in grocery stores, there is no wine anywhere but restaurants.  Beer in grocery stores and gas stations but no liquor stores.  

 

 

[Tsuga]

Summer is traditionally when it is time to work on the family farm.

 

ETA: I stand corrected. I just found this: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/01/kids-get-summer-school/

 

Regardless this reason or that, it's still a holdover from the past.

 

That article is so enlightening! Thanks for posting it.

[MrsBasil]

Honestly, when our state changed over to Sunday liquor sales the biggest complaints were from liquor store owners concerned about low sales and overhead and grocery stores complaining about possible loss of sales on their 3.2 beer. I don't remember much, if any, complaining about going against God.

 

When we legalized marijuana however, that was another story.

[YaelAldrich]

I wish there were one day of the week where everybody just stopped doing everything and just rested. Sunday, Tuesday, Friday... I don't care which day, just SOME day.

 

Wouldn't that be awesome? A day to just sit and relax? Or hang out with friends? Or sleep?

 

I'll call it, Day of Recuperation.

 

Yes, everyone. Even emergency personnel. People would just have to learn not to get injured or sick on those Days of Recuperation. (LOL)

 

Oh heck. I'd even be happy with one day a month like that, let alone one day a week.

 

(Am I rambling? Can you tell I'm tired today? Is my exhaustion showing? )

(Religious) Jews have this.  It's called Shabbat/Shabbos, our Sabbath from Friday an hour before sunset until 25 hours later.  No driving, no phones, no TV/internet, no cooking - just hanging out with friends and family eating food prepared before the Sabbath, singing Sabbath songs, reading and relaxing.  Would never give this precious time up for anything!  On a typical Sabbath, we invite friends of families (or are invited ourselves), eat multi course meals, sing songs, talk, argue, play.  Same thing goes after morning services.  In our neighborhood over 80 children run around our local park all afternoon.  People take naps after lunch.  

 

 Now in the larger communities, we do have volunteer paramedic squads who are comprised of religious Jews.  So they "break" the Sabbath, but we understand that we should live in our religion, so life threatening health events supersede our Sabbath laws.

[go_go_gadget]

Same with the states with laws regarding car dealerships.  The dealerships have fought to keep the laws on the books so they can have a day off each week without worrying about the other dealerships being open.

 

Except I was reading earlier that Texas has a law saying dealerships have to close either Saturday or Sunday (their choice). So you'd still lose business to the ones that made a different choice, unless you had two dealerships.

[mommaduck]

Some places here sell on Sunday, but they have to pay for a separate, more expensive license to do it. Most places can't afford it and refuse to buy the licenses for one day a week. 

[Serenade]

 

Costco pushed a citizen initiative to open selling booze to grocery stores.  so - it was passed by voters.

 

What state?

 

You give me hope.

 

I'm in NC, and we can only buy liquor at an ABC store.  Because the government controls it, the selection is very limited.  If I want a bottle of something that is not on the NC ABC approved list, the store will order it for me, but I have to buy a whole case!  Sheesh.  If I'd buy a whole case of some fancy liquor, I probably couldn't even finish it before I died. 

 

This is what I'm currently craving.  I had a sample bottle and fell in love with it, and now I can't buy it.  Grrrr.  We're heading to SC in December, so I'm hoping I can get some then.  I really don't want to have to special order a case.

[Serenade]

I was born in Texas. In the county that we lived, they had a blue law restricting the sale of rubber products on Sundays.

 

My mother had to take heavy duty meds for epilepsy and was told she couldn't nurse, so I was bottle fed from the get go.

 

Apparently I used to rip through the rubber nipples on my bottles. One Sunday my parents needed to buy some replacement nipples after mass. My dad went to the store but the clerk wouldn't sell them. My dad went back and forth trying to explain that a hungry baby was in the mix here and could they please make any exception. Finally when it was clear they could not reach an understanding, my father said that, fine, he was just going to have to steal them because he had a baby to feed but he was leaving the money for the bottle nipples, keep the change on the counter. Go ahead and call the police if you must, he'd take his chances. :p

 

The law was meant to stop the sale of condoms on Sundays but I guess they didn't want to put the word condom in the code or something.

 

 

This is really kind of funny.  Not to the hungry baby, of course. 

[Debbi in Texas]

Is that true statewide? I think blue laws tend to vary based in counties. Texas has some dry counties after all.

 

Not the dry counties. :)  They buy it anytime they want.:)

[Elfknitter.#]

In our state we can not buy anything other than 3.2 beer in grocery stores(I think). Liquor stores and the recently ubiquitous micro breweries prefer it that way.

 

Until recently, liquor sales were closed on Sunday but that changed via our legislature.

Ok, a mostly CA native here. We can even buy liquor in Target. I am aware of liquor only in liquor stores thanks to East Coast relatives and friends.

 

So what does 3.2 beer mean?

[fraidycat]

So what does 3.2 beer mean?

Lower alcohol content. You can only get the "good stuff" (5-6+%) at the liquor stores.

[Elfknitter.#]

Lower alcohol content. You can only get the "good stuff" (5-6+%) at the liquor stores.

Ah. I didn't realize that it referred to alcohol percentage.

[Bluegoat]

Here, we can only get alcohol at a liquor store.  They are open Sunday, though they close earlier.  That happened - maybe 5 years ago now, when a few laws around Sunday opening for different kinds of stores changed.  Most then started opening Sunday, because they had to to compete.

 

The argument at the time was that no day should be given special status, and the other side was that this left workers with fewer protections.

 

Interestingly, a lot of these laws actually came inhere during the late Victorian and Edwardian period, not mainly as being related to Sunday church-going, but as workers rights laws - some arguments were religious but the perspective was giving workers being obliged to work very long evening hours time off.  It was all very controversial judging by the newspapers from the period.

 

So - I found it interesting that people were arguing more recently that the rules were about religious preferences, not workers rights.

 

One of the funny things here is that you can always recognize older pubs, because they have no windows to speak of as they were illegal.  They didn't want people walking by to be somehow influenced by whatever was going on inside.  It gives the old pubs a rather seedy atmosphere to say the least.

 

On the question of laws like that which do have a religious aspect - that isn't necessarily a problem based on the idea of separation of state and church.  When you get right down to it, it can be pretty much impossible for people to somehow separate their ethical stances from religious perspectives - if my religious ideas tell me something about how I think we should deal with immigration, I can certainly act on that basis as a citizen when I vote or participate in the public discussion about it - and if a lot of people have that same perspective, for whatever reason, it may be reflected in the law.  THe important thing here is that religious institutions are mediated through individuals, they are not directly linked to government.

 

  Liquor laws can be based on similar thinking.  Anti-alcohol sentiments were very widely held at a certain point in time, in part because of people's religious views.  So those attitudes became encoded to some extent in laws, which were often directed to making it harder to access alcohol and limiting its influence.

[Cindy in FL.]

No alcohol on Sunday where I live until after 1:00 pm. I remember when Publix was closed on Sundays.

[Ellie]

 Also, why is there no mail on Sunday?

 

Wouldn't it be nice for workers to have off one day a week? Especially the day when many of them will want to go to church with their families?

[Lady Florida.]

Yep.  Blue laws, left over from the Puritans.  When I was a kid, no stores at all were allowed to be open on Sundays.  Those Blue laws finally got repealed.

 

 

When I was a kid in NJ stores could not sell clothing on Sundays. So, a clothing store would be closed, but a store like Walmart (back then it was Two Guys or Great Eastern) would have huge sheet-like tarps over all the clothing racks and a rope so you couldn't access the clothing section. This was in the early to mid-sixties. I don't remember when those Blue Laws were repealed.

 

probably depends upon the state.   I remember when 7-11  being open from 7am - 11pm was a big. deal. grocery stores didn't open until 8 - 9am, and were closed by dinner time or shortly after.

 

 

 

I had to explain to ds 18 why it's called 7-11. In his world there have always been some stores that stay open 24/7. 

[marbel]

Wouldn't it be nice for workers to have off one day a week? Especially the day when many of them will want to go to church with their families?

 

A friend of mine (older gent) was musing on this on facebook not too long ago.

 

He was remembering when stores/most businesses were closed on Sunday.  People who wanted to go to church on Sunday/observe their Sabbath didn't have to ask for the day off.   Now, most businesses are open on Sunday and while employees can ask for the day off, employers don't have to give it to them.  He had lost work opportunities since he was not open to working on Sunday.  He's not the only one - I've known more than a few people who weren't hired in stores and other businesses when they said they wouldn't work on Saturday (Jews) or  Sunday (Christians). Supposedly it is a hardship to the employers.  Even our public library's employment application says not to bother applying if you won't work Saturday and/or Sunday.  

 

Note that I am not talking about emergency personnel, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc, who are needed to work on Sat/Sun.

 

Seems to me that now it should be easy for an employer to schedule employees so they can observe their religion's holy days.  There are plenty of people who will work Sunday but want Saturday off, or would prefer to work the weekend but have days off during the week.   Computers could make it easy to block days that people can't be scheduled, right?  It's hard for me to see it as a hardship anymore.

 

BTW my daughter got a job in a coffee shop (open mornings and through lunch time, not evenings) recently and when asked about work hours, said she was not available on her school days (just 2 days per week) and Sundays.  They didn't challenge her about Sundays. So, so far I can't complain about employers and Sundays but this is our family's first experience with working kids.  My husband and I were/are in industries that didn't require weekend work.

 

ETA: I suppose observant Jews have dealt with this a long time, since places were typically open on Saturday even before stores and such started opening on Sunday.

[Sherry in OH]

Dh and BIL were flummoxed when they attempted to buy beer in a grocery store in Pennsylvania.  They next tried to buy it at a wine store.   :lol:   When told about it, all I could imagine was the clerks at the stores laughing about the crazy out-of-staters who didn’t know they needed to go to a beer distributor to buy beer. 

 

We had blue laws when I was a child.  Even gas stations were closed.  7-11 was the first store in the area open on a Sunday.   Locally, many restaurants are still closed on Sundays. 

 

I remember my uncles liking to work Sunday shifts because they got time and half.  Now Sunday work is for regular pay. 

[mamaraby]

I think part of it is, though, that the underlying assumption behind Blue Laws is that everyone holds the same day (Sunday) in high regard. I don't find Sunday any different than Monday or Wednesday. I like being able to grocery shop on Sunday morning (usually before the church crowd gets around to grocery shopping). It's far more peaceful that way.

 

Dh very seldom has Saturday/Sunday off and very rarely has actual holidays off. I'm glad that businesses reflect our changing society where there's a greater plurality of ways of life.