An Etiquette question... When your kids make a mess

[Heather in Neverland]

We host a bible study small group at our house once a month. There are 5 families with a combined total of 16 kids. Of those 16 kids, 7 of them are under 7 years old. The older kids hang out in our game room. The younger kids play in our dd's room and play with her toys.

 

Here is where things get sticky.

 

Those little kids absolutely destroy her room every time. I am talking seriously destroy. Every single toy, puzzle, Lego, etc., is dumped in a huge mess all over the room. It looks like a tornado hit it! This is alarming to me for two reasons:

 

- that's not how we do things. My kids play with one toy at a time and put it back before they take out another one. That's the rule. So a room with an explosion of stuff everywhere is not the norm here.

 

- when the bible study is over they all just leave. None of the kids pick up any of the mess they made and it is left for us to do.

 

Tonight when the group left I stood in my dd's room just stunned by the mess. It took me at least 30 minutes to put everything back.

 

So, finally, my etiquette question is this: when you go to another person's house and your kids make a mess, do you make them help clean up before you leave?

[Mabeline]

Absolutely! I have also heard other moms tell their kids to each find two things to put away before leaving.

 

Could you maybe go in there five minutes before everyone has to leave and let them know they will be leaving soon and now it is time to clean up.

 

Also, I would try and put away toys with too many small pieces, especially puzzles.

 

HTH

[Parrothead]

When dd was little, yes, I'd have her help clean up. I found in my house the easiest thing to do is call for clean up time. Kids forget. Parents forget. But when it is right there in front of them it is difficult for either a parent or a child to say no.

 

Cut the meeting short by 10 minutes or extend it so clean up can be accomplished.

 

The only thing about this is you'll have to remember to help clean up when the group meets at someone else's house.

[Lawana]

In my experience, young children that are in a group with other children often act much differently than they do at home. If these under 7's are not supervised, I would expect total disaster.

 

I would simply ask the adults for help each time to pick up the toys. They won't put the toys away the same way you would, but it would be an option.

[TammyinTN]

When we went to visit with friends and the children were small we always cleaned up before we left.  I always ask my kids, would you want to clean up this mess all alone?    I don't think it's to much to ask your guest and children to please assist you in getting everything back in order.  I would feel terrible to leave my host with a huge mess.  

[Dandelion]

Yes, I always ask my kids to help clean up in situations like that.  

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I do ask my kids to help clean up the mess they make. I do not ask known mess makers to do it, it takes me too long to sort out all the bits and pieces after they "help" pick up.  I remove many extra toys from play areas and put them into hiding when I have known mess makers visiting. If they can't play with it they can't make a mess with it.

 

Years ago a group of my boy's cousins would repeatedly come over and in the first 10 minutes dump out every toy and board game in the middle of the floor. I banned them from playing in the boy's room for a year, after the 3-4th time of this.  They don't dump stuff anymore.  They weren't all little's at the time either, some were more than old enough to know better.

[Night Elf]

I would help my child pick up the mess because I'd assume my child didn't create the entire mess and I wouldn't want to put it solely on his/her shoulders. I would be upset if the other families didn't feel the same way but i wouldn't be surprised. I've seen too much to expect such behavior from other families. That's sad isn't it?

[Dandelion]

Another thought:  have you established and communicated some rules for the under 7 crowd?

 

Given what you've been experiencing, if I were you I would start off the next meeting by asking the parents and kids for their help in following a few rules for the younger kids' area. That can be done in a matter of fact, friendly way that shouldn't make anyone feel bad or put on the spot.  Once it's been communicated, it will be easy for you to remind everyone at the end "Ok, it's time for clean-up!".  After a few meetings, it will be routine.  

[sassenach]

We've had this issue in the past with hosting bible studies.  My suggestions:

 

1) Talk with the parents.  They can't help you if they don't know there's a problem.  I know we had a season where we kept running late, which meant that by the time people left it was like, "Oh shoot, look at the time!  Come on kids!  We need to get you in bed!"  In that situation, it was a leadership problem (ahem, long winded husband).  As leaders, we needed to end things earlier.  So back to my point, let the parents know that you need help getting the room clean, and then make sure you leave time to do it.

 

2) Pay an older child to supervise.  At the bargain price of $5 a week, my 11yo watches the younger kids in our group.  

 

3) Rotate in adults to supervise.  On a rowdy night, we still need an adult to step in.

 

4) Close down her room.  This kind of depends on the kid.  My dds are totally fine with room destruction, because that's their normal mode of operation.  My ds would be greatly embittered by it.  We have chosen to keep his room off limits.  This takes some creativity and sacrifice.  We live in 1500sf and our current group consists of 18 adults and 10 kids.  Since the weather is nice right now, we kick them all into the back yard, including the 3 year olds.  We lay out blankets with cars and trains and have the 11yo supervise them.  When it gets colder, we'll probably set up a movie in our bedroom and pile the kids onto the bed.

 

Hope that helps!

[happi duck]

When we hosted something similar we had all the kids in the same place.  The older ones weren't necessarily 'officially' responsible but they did look out for the younger kids.  Also, we put out certain activities each week instead of access to everything, kwim?  That seemed to help.

 

If it needs to stay the same, under sevens on their own in the bedroom, then I think it's totally reasonable to start a new protocol...letting families know that things need to be cleaned up before they go...limiting what can be used etc.

[unsinkable]

I knew what the question was going to be when I read the title.

 

Who is going to come into this thread and say:

 

"Nope! If my kids make a mess at someone's house, the host children clean it up!"

 

You might as well put JAWM in the title.

[Ellie]

Here's the thing: There's a difference between visiting a friend's house and requiring the children to clean up after themselves, and a group of people showing up with 16 children, seven of them under 7 years old, and leaving the 7 littles in a room for a couple of unsupervised hours.

 

Y'all are going to have to do something, and you'll need to get the ball rolling, as it is your house and  you are the leader. You should address the parents and tell them that this is really not working out well for you and ask for ideas: older children supervising younger children? All of the children in the game room, none in the bedrooms (and that would be reasonable to me)? Adults taking turns (including fathers, not just the mothers) doing activities with the children?

[unsinkable]

Here's the thing: There's a difference between visiting a friend's house and requiring the children to clean up after themselves, and a group of people showing up with 16 children, seven of them under 7 years old, and leaving the 7 littles in a room for a couple of unsupervised hours.

 

Y'all are going to have to do something, and you'll need to get the ball rolling, as it is your house and  you are the leader. You should address the parents and tell them that this is really not working out well for you and ask for ideas: older children supervising younger children? All of the children in the game room, none in the bedrooms (and that would be reasonable to me)? Adults taking turns (including fathers, not just the mothers) doing activities with the children?

 

Good advice.

 

I wonder how many of the parents see the condition of the bedroom at the end of the event?

 

Do all the kids just run out to the main living area and leave or do parents go get the kids from the bedroom?

 

If someone has seen the bedroom and just walked away, maybe she assumes that is how the bedroom always looks. How do people know what your standards are if you don't tell them?

 

As for the one toy out at a time rule...if there are 7 kids, that's 7 toys out. That could look like a toy store explosion in and of itself.

 

(I always thought that rule limited the free and creative play of children. It smacks of a daycare rule to me.)

[ErinE]

30 minutes before it's time to leave, I would go into the room and say it's time to clean. I'd pick up a few toys to get things going and even enlist a few of the older kids to help then leave. At the 15 minute mark, I would ask another parent to come with me to make sure the kids are cleaning, go into the room, and finish cleaning up. Personally, I'd rather cut bible study 15 minutes short to make sure everyone helps clean then spend 30 minutes by myself resenting all the families who came to my house.

[Word Nerd]

I don't see this as an etiquette issue so much as not establishing ground rules and making expectations clear. Before the meeting begins, talk to the kids and parents about your preferences and expectations. Give the kids 10 minutes or so before the meeting ends to have cleanup time, and ask adults to help if needed. That would be the expectation at a church playroom, and there's no reason for it not to be in your home.

[zoobie]

Does your DD mind everyone in her room? It would freak out one of mine. Either way, definitely get the group to help clean up, or get the group to chip in for a supervisor, or moms need to keep their littles with them.

[SKL]

Yes, but.  If there are 7 kids from multiple families, nobody will know who made what mess.

 

I would do it like they do at daycare.  Have a bin for each type of toy and have all the kids put the toys in the bins before they leave.

 

Kids that young putting away a toy before playing with another is not the norm IMO.  It is not at all surprising to me that you encounter a mess in the situation you described.

 

The other option is to put up the really messy toys before the kids come, or have them play in a room they can't turn into a disaster area.  Or have one of the older kids go in there and read to them instead of letting them play independently the whole time.  Or just plan on cleaning it up without resentment.

[SKL]

How does it work when you gather at other people's houses?

[marbel]

I've had a similar situation in my home when we hosted Bible study and other groups.

 

Agreeing with all that you have to set the expectation.  But a bunch of kids under 7 unsupervised is a disaster. I'm surprised you aren't interrupted every week by someone crying, etc.  Are there teens in the older group?  Get them involved with the youngers.

 

If you have to have it in your daughter's room, move out the toys with small pieces, puzzles, and such, before the group comes.  If it's not there, the kids can't dump it out.

 

When we did this, we did the cleanup but we also limited the number of small-part toys we had out.  I never had a one-toy rule for my own kids, but if we had a crowd I limited it.  It takes a long time to sort pieces!

 

 

[unsinkable]

Why are the under 7s even there? Are they Bible-studying? Or is there a social component?

[Ellie]

I don't see this as an etiquette issue so much as not establishing ground rules and making expectations clear. Before the meeting begins, talk to the kids and parents about your preferences and expectations. Give the kids 10 minutes or so before the meeting ends to have cleanup time, and ask adults to help if needed. That would be the expectation at a church playroom, and there's no reason for it not to be in your home.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[fraidycat]

Absolutely! I give them time warnings. Like, we are leaving in 15 minutes, you can play for another 5 minutes, then put away the toys and get your shoes.

 

I do the same if people are my house. As soon as the parent says they have to leave soon, I instruct all the kids to finish up their play and put the stuff away.

[Mergath]

Yup.  I tell my dd to help clean up before we leave.

 

If I was in your situation, I think about ten minutes before the study finished, I'd poke my head in the room and say something like, "Okay, it's almost time to leave!  Everyone pick up five toys and put them away!" or something along those lines.  The room won't be immaculate, but it should make a dent in the mess.

 

If any of the parents have a problem with that, I wouldn't invite them back to my home.  I have a low tolerance for people who don't enforce very basic etiquette rules for their kids.

[Word Nerd]

Why are the under 7s even there? Are they Bible-studying? Or is there a social component?

I'm assuming because otherwise the parents would have to hire a babysitter every time in order to attend.

 

That might be an option for the OP so they wouldn't be unsupervised and making a mess to begin with. Some groups have parents chip in to hire a babysitter or have older kids keep an eye on younger ones.

[Soror]

Of course I expect my kids to help clean up. In that situation I would cut the meeting a bit short and then supervise the clean up. If we have a bunch of kids over I do tell them I tell everyone they need to pitch in and help pick up, if it is for a play date or such I will have them do it before changing activities- like lets pick up before snack or lunch time. I would expect a mess though w/ that many small kids. If it was a recurring activity I would likely put away toys and games w/ multiple small pieces before everyone arrives to cut down on the mess.

 

If for some reason it is not cleaned up before people leave- like a b-day party or I didn't start clean-up in time then I help clean-up. Ds generally doesn't have an issue w/ his room, he is very picky w/ what mess he allows and he doesn't let people destroy his room.

[Starr]

I would suggest a plan for supervision and clean up. I would not want them to stay another hour and chat while waiting for the kids to clean up...

[MommaOfalotta]

Well first off, my kids know better than to come into someone elses home and make a mess like that.

 

But we definitely wouldn't leave until the home looked the way it did before we got there.

[Joker]

I always tell the girls to help clean up before we leave. We're usually told not to worry about it, and we say the same when others tell their kids to help clean. My dds don't make big messes at home, but it seemed they were quite messy when playing mostly unsupervised with a large group at that age.

[ThisIsTheDay]

I did the same thing when my kids were little.  Most of their friends did not clean up, and I quickly learned to step in the room 15 mins. before it was time to leave to announce that it was time for everyone to put stuff away. 

 

Is there another area they can play in so that everything is not entirely torn apart?  Or can some things be put into a closet that is off limits for the night?

[momacacia]

I'd put all the toys in plastic bins. Then get out 2 bins, or whatever you are willing to clean up or make them clean up, and everything else PUT AWAY. Unless of course, you want to do the mandatory adults help clean up 30 minutes before they leave as suggested above.

 

and if you hire the babysitter, be sure the sitters knows you expect things all picked up and put away as they were at the beginning of the evening. Not all babysitters get this . . . .

[bolt.]

 

 

So, finally, my etiquette question is this: when you go to another person's house and your kids make a mess, do you make them help clean up before you leave?

When I go over "for the kids to play" cleaning up after (as well as supervision during) is part of the agenda.

 

When I am invited to someone's home for a ministry, and my children are also invited, I assume that the hosts know they are hosting young children and that "hospitality" to the children (cleaning up after them) is part of what was offered to the children as invited guests. Much like the way that children do not clean up a Church nursery or Sunday School classroom after their session is over. I just assume that someone who is volunteering to tend the nursery includes cleanup in their idea of volunteering, and likewise that a family who would host 16 children (plus various adults) has considered the magnitude of "hospitality" to that many immature human beings.

 

Sometimes I give it a shot, but really only at daytime events. Often those things are just so late in the evening (after 7:00) that we are lucky I'm willing to over-tire my kids for the sake of my Bible study needs at all, and I just need to take them home. Usually, I just call my child to get their shoes on. Chances are I would never even see the room they were playing in, nor would I know what condition it was in before.

 

If you want to switch which mode I'm in, all you have to do is mention it. "Well, that's it for the study. Parents of littles, please visit my dd's room to help your littles tidy up before she goes to bed. Parents of older kids, it's time to get them going on clean up too. See you all next week!"

[Rosie_0801]

I don't stick around until everything is spotless because it is more helpful to take my boybarian away. I would make dd help pick up as much as he would allow, which is more than he used to, but I wouldn't have let the kids completely trash anywhere in the first place. 

 

It's pretty hard for the occasional visiting child to make a bigger mess here than the residents do, so I don't worry about that much. We don't have many toys so the worst anyone can do is pull all the books off the shelf and tip all the blocks out. If my kids had special toys, I would hide them out of reach.

[Heather in Neverland]

Thank you for all the great, positive ideas and ways to handle it. I guess I need to be more assertive about it. I kind of just assumed that if your kid comes to a room that is neat and tidy and then two hours later the room is destroyed, you would think to have your child at least clean up some of it. It always surprises me that the parents actually walk into the messy room and tell their kids it is time to go and just leave.

 

I always make my kids clean up at other people's houses before we leave but I thought maybe my expectations are just too high? I am going to use a lot of the ideas here especially putting away many of the toys that have a lot of pieces and stopping early so there is time to clean up and announcing clean up time, etc.

 

It's actually because I was raised with such open hospitality that I haven't said anything ... I was just trying to be a good host. But last night I was really frustrated. Doing all the dishes afterwards? I can handle that. No problem. But the tornado bedroom made me not want to host it again and I don't want to feel like that. I love these people and I love their kids and I don't want seeds of resentment in my heart.

 

So I guess I need to take the lead in this. Thanks again to all of you who give such helpful and positive feedback.

[nd293]

If I see the mess I always tell my kids to tidy up after we have been in someone else's house. There are occasions when i dont think to check the bedroom, especially if we are running late. If the mother says "don't worry about it" I'll often pick one area and make sure it's done anyway: "Ok, but we'll just pick up the cars / Lego first".

 

I take responsibility for getting the kids to tidy my house. In your case, at the end of bible study, I'd say "Let's head to the room and get the kids to tidy up". You might head in a few minutes early and tell the children before you tell the parents. I also do sometimes pop into the room when kids are playing and tell them to pack up some stuff - our rule is the same as yours, one toy at a time, although with a large group that rule obviously has limited use in controlling the chaos!

 

In practice, I'll often tell parents not to bother too much with the tidying because I know exactly where things go and kids tend to bundle toys into the incorrect boxes. I will often point the kids towards one specific job, more on principle than anything else, as I feel every child should help tidy up their own mess.

[Word Nerd]

When I am invited to someone's home for a ministry, and my children are also invited, I assume that the hosts know they are hosting young children and that "hospitality" to the children (cleaning up after them) is part of what was offered to the children as invited guests. Much like the way that children do not clean up a Church nursery or Sunday School classroom after their session is over. I just assume that someone who is volunteering to tend the nursery includes cleanup in their idea of volunteering, and likewise that a family who would host 16 children (plus various adults) has considered the magnitude of "hospitality" to that many immature human beings.

 

 

I've volunteered in multiple churches, and that has never been my experience. Everyone helps clean up before the end of Sunday school/nursery, even the toddlers. Adults are in charge of making sure everything is put away and cleaned up, but they don't do it all themselves.

[QueenCat]

So, finally, my etiquette question is this: when you go to another person's house and your kids make a mess, do you make them help clean up before you leave?

 

My kids were always required to help clean up. When young, I helped them. I'd never allow them to think getting everything out was okay either.

[QueenCat]

I've volunteered in multiple churches, and that has never been my experience. Everyone helps clean up before the end of Sunday school/nursery, even the toddlers.

 

Same here. That's how the last few minutes of the hour are spent.......... cleaning up, with the children's help!

[SKL]

Even toddlers in daycare help clean up.  But they need it to be organized for that.  They have to know where things go and be reminded when to put them there.  And with some things (like Legos), it can be a lot easier to make a mess than to clean it up.  We're talking about very little kids here.  I would hide all the Legos for sure.  ;)

 

I remember when I was little and my parents were friends with a family whose kids were destructive.  My mom would run through the house calling, "__ are coming over!  Hide everything you like before they break it!"  Sometimes you just have to protect yourself.  ;)

[bolt.]

Does no one (other than me) just think it's an odd quirk of our culture that hospitality works this way:

 

Grown adults are guests. They should relax and not worry about simple tasks like washing dishes they used, even though that's like a 30 second job for an adult.

 

Small children are guests too. However, they should be expected to do 5 or 10 minutes of work that is genuinely hard for them to erase the evidence that they were present in any space that they don't own. Even though the host adult could do that in the same 10 or 20 minutes that the dishes takes (if there aren't quite so many little bits available).

 

It's just so illogical that I have trouble remembering it. I suppose. I just don't get the difference in status between what an individual child can expect from their Church family, and what an individual adult can expect. Adults get much better care, even though they need it far less -- unless the adult is a parent.

 

I hated being a mom of toddlers in Church environments. I constantly felt like we were welcome to enjoy events as long as my small children left no traces of themselves. If there was a mess, it was *my* mess, not the mess of one of the people they invited to their event and pretended to want to minister to (and they knew how old they were when they invited my kids). But instead it's a bait-and-switch, because they really just wanted the toddler-guests to trouble no-one, or at least to only trouble the woman who ministers to them all day every day, who came to your "ministry" because she was led to believe she could get some refreshment or inspiration out of it -- not that it was going to be about 8 times harder work than just staying home.

 

OK, I just realized I maybe need to process those events. I've got some big feelings leftover from a few years ago.

[bolt.]

Most women who host home events fess-up to doing HOURS of housecleaning before the guests arrive, so that the guests will be comfortable. Adult comfort matters, children need to learn that play involves work, I suppose? But is that hospitality at the same level that the other guests are being shown?

[Rosie_0801]

There's a reason I tend to meet people at playgrounds instead of either of our houses...

[Word Nerd]

I think you're reading way too much into it. It seems like you're assigning a negative intent to everyone based on some bad experiences you had personally. At our small group, the adults would put away extra chairs, take things to the kitchen after the meeting was over, and help clean up, and we took turns bringing refreshments. Comfort and helping out are not mutually exclusive. It was no big deal at all, and neither is asking kids to put toys in a toy box and books back on a shelf. Kids learn that we're all in this together and when we work as a team, it isn't much of a chore.

[forty-two]

Idk, I don't consider not having to clean up after myself as part of the benefit of enjoying someone's hospitality, unless that is explicitly part of what they are offering. I mean, at parties and such, I always take care of my trash and clean up my spills and otherwise ensure I don't leave things worse than I found them - it's just part and parcel of good manners to me. I see expecting kids to help pick up what they got out completely in line with the general expectations of how a good guest behaves - for me a good guest just doesn't make messes and not clean them up, adult or child.

 

And fwiw, at church events here the adults also collectively clean up everything at the end of the event before leaving, too - cleaning up isn't just for children here.

[cuckoomamma]

^{I echo what some others have said.  Our kids know not to take a bunch of stuff out.  They also know to help clean up when everyone is done playing.  We left a group because my kids were on the older end of the ages and we were cleaning up all the younger kids' toys before we'd leave.  They weren't even playing with the toys anymore because they were so old, and the parents of the younger kids an their kids who had destroyed the room (not my house) wouldn't clean up.  In my mind, helping clean up is part of being a good guest.  If I or my kids couldn't help clean up, I'd be very honest about that and help out in a different way (provide the refreshments or something else).}

[Mommyof4ks]

Yes, we help clean up before we leave. We are not one toy at a time people, so we know that toys with many pieces need to be put away before a herd of kids comes over. I would just put up all puzzles, Legos, and other items with many pieces, and leave out books, and such. Maybe let them watch a movie or play video games to keep the occupied if there is no one watching them. Our Bible study group has 3 13 year old girls, so they are crowd control for the younger ones, but we only have 9 kids not 16.

[zoobie]

I think the difference is in the nature of the hospitality. If I go to someone's home for an event, I sit and smile and make conversation. If I came over and pulled everything out of the host's kitchen cabinets and left, I wouldn't expect to be invited back. ;)

[Rebel Yell]

First, let me say no way in the world would I let a child of mine be part of an unsupervised group of under-7-yos in any room of the house.

 

Second, my kids usually helped clean up a mess they helped make, but sometimes it truly was the most help we could be to just get out of the way, KWIM? 

 

I do not have the size of hoem to host a group of the OP's size...  but if I did, there would be very limited toys/activities available to the children. And there would be supervision- either a rotating parent, or a paid teen.

[SKL]

Yes, I think it's the magnitude of the damage in the case of the kids' room.  Though to some extent that is manageable by the host.

[bolt.]

I get it, and I don't object to participating in a group clean up. I just sometimes need the expectations laid out.

 

It's only that I'm a bit sensitive (from my past) to the difference between, "Please come to our event, but mind your own children, because you are the one who brought them, and we're concerned about how their existence and childlikeness impacts other (real) people." -and- "Please come to our family event. We make efforts that everyone should be comfortable and enjoy themselves, no matter how old they are. It's a pleasure to minister to you, and to each one of your children as individuals that the Lord has blessed us with."

 

It's a refreshing pleasure to be invited to true family events.

 

I was at a hard time in my life when I attended far too many 'family' events that were really the first type, when I really needed the second type. There are times in your life when you don't need to go places where child surveillance and expectations that everyone pitch in (and you pitch in for 3) pretty much negate the point of going anywhere hoping to be ministered to. Even Sunday mornings hurt a lot during that season... so yeah, it's just me. It was a hard season and I could have used some space, some place, some group who thought they were serving and ministering to my children, not just allowing me to bring them (to serve and minster to them myself).