God, trust, and all that stuff (obviously CC)

[BakersDozen]

This is very emotional and very blunt. Possibly very offensive. And very long. Just a warning...

 

Say my mom was visiting. She was someone I talked to, whom I turned to, etc. While she was here a child of mine died because of her. Let's make it even more realistic - 19 children of mine died and she could have prevented it. Whether she caused it or allowed it, she knew it would happen and the child died. Now say in my grief someone offered this as comfort: "Just remember that your mom is walking with you through this (or other "helpful" words like that)." Would it be right for me to not give a d@mn about my mom "walking by my side"? Would it be right for me to want my mom to die as well or to at least hurt something fierce? Would it not be right for me to never talk to my mom again? To have nothing to do with her?

 

This is how I view God. The supposed author of life allows death. The one we are told to trust allows us to hurt in ways that makes us hardly able to breathe. Some say God isn't the one doing the hurting but see, I don't buy that. Logically, it doesn't make sense. If what I've been told/taught since I was a child is true, God holds the universe in his hand. He can part seas and calm storms yet he wouldn't prevent the shifting of wind during a fire and 19 precious people are gone from our community. Yet all the stupid radio personality keeps saying is to turn to God for peace and hope and to pray.

 

Hope of what, exactly? Peace of what sort, exactly? Pray for what? That it wouldn't happen? Do these people who are spouting off such stuff have any idea what the families/friends of the firefighters are going through? Or are they just pulling the "spiritualese" they've been raised on out of their head and offering it as some sort of lame help? How is one who lost their child supposed to find comfort in being told others are praying that they would find peace after something like this???

 

I find these words to be useless and empty. I am so done with the spiritualizing of stuff. I am so done with being told to turn to the very God who allows these things to happen. I am so done with being told to trust a God I do.not.trust.at.all. I am so done with being told that children are a blessing/treasure from the Lord when they are also his to take away even from women who cry out for new life, who cry out with everything in them for the life of their unborn child even while others who did not want new life get it. I'm done praying for life to the one who allows death.

 

I am so done with this thing called religion or, as churches throw around now, "relationship" with God. See, I wouldn't have a relationship with someone who allowed such horrors to happen. I wouldn't seek a trusting relationship with someone who allowed my children's death or the death of almost an entire Hot Shots crew. I wouldn't expect my children to seek a relationship with me if I hurt them over, and over, and over.

 

The other night I was holding my youngest son on my lap in such a way that he could easily have fallen, yet I knew I wouldn't let him. Had I let him or even caused him to fall, he might have gotten back on my lap but warily. If I let him fall again, would he come back to me? At what point would he know I was not to be trusted? How can God expect a reaction any different from his "children"?

 

I find much more peace in believing that there is no God allowing/causing things but that life just happens, the world goes on, cr@p happens and most of us can't avoid it, although it may be worse for some than others. I would rather believe in dumb luck because right now that makes a lot more sense.

 

I've been questioning what I believe about God for years. The last two Sundays I didn't go to church and it felt as though a tremendous weight was lifted from me. I go to church because I'm supposed to. I don't sing the songs because I don't believe what the words say. I am happy to stand out in the lobby with my younger children because then I don't have to hear the blah,blah,blah I have heard for decades yet am now questioning. There is no stinking way I am going this Sunday to hear the usual, typical, spiritualese spoken.

 

He could have saved those firefighters. He could have kept my baby's heart beating (it stopped probably yesterday). He could do so many things. But he doesn't. He could have cured my friends Cindy and Heidi who left behind 10 children between the two of them. So many people prayed, fasted, anointed...all the things God's own word tells us to do, and those women died. I have never known of any prayer to be answered that is big like that. Not a single one. I haven't prayed in years because I just don't see the point. Stuff is going to happen no matter what we say, and it often seems the more people pray the opposite things go from what we are asking. To me, God asking/telling people to pray then giving them the exact opposite is nothing short of cruel and horrible.

 

I guess I'm bound for hell but this is how I feel.

 

The funny thing is, there are things about God I do believe in (Creation, Crucifixion/Resurrection). I believe the big things, but I don't view God as a loving father. I see a loving father in my home every day. I see a father who would himself die before he allowed one of his children to die. Yes, Jesus died for us spiritually but physically he doesn't do much to protect/save us, does he? And if someone is protected is that really God or just dumb luck?

 

Enough of this...this has been a horrible day. The entire town seems quiet and sober, there's smoke everywhere...it is a horrible day. And the one whom I am told to turn to is the last one I want to turn to for anything.

[TracyP]

:grouphug:

[Lara in Colo]

I could have written those same words. (not about the deaths, but about the type of God we have)

 

I believe in Him-- I do!!

I guess I just don't see much point in worshiping Him.

He seems to have abandoned us--- that is how I feel. Like he has been gone for 2000 years and has become callus and hard.

Death has always happened-- but shouldn't there be a significant difference in the lives of His followers versus those who aren't?

 

I don't know what to do exactly, but know that others are also questioning their reason for faith.

[Rivka]

Yeah, those are some tough questions, all right. I wish you courage and strength as you ponder them.

 

I wonder if you might like a book called Here If You Need Me, by Kate Braestrup. It's about how she supports people as a chaplain with the Maine Game Wardens service without having a traditional neatly-sewn-up theology or even being sure that she believes in God. She doesn't have any pat answers, but you might find her search meaningful.

[milovany]

I'm so sorry for the losses in your community. It's just so tragic and sad. My son just finished training to be a wildland firefighter this summer, and is waiting for a call to go fight a fire somewhere at any time, so this news was particularly disconcerting to me. And yet I have to let him go, knowing the dangers and knowing there's a possibility he might not come home. So my hugs for you and your community are with a notion of understanding (albeit foggy and small). I can't fathom what you all are going through, but I did cry last night too because of the situation I'm currently in related to what happened. I'm so sorry for the families.

 

There IS a part of Christianity called Word of Faith that would say this absolutely was NOT God's plan in this situation, and that it was an attack of the devil and Christians can stand against him to press in for victory in all situations; sometimes he does seem to "win" but it's not because God allowed it, but because faith faltered somewhere along the line. I didn't know if you were aware of that or not, but it is there, although pretty fringe. We were word of faith for some time, but for us it created more questions (and angst) than answers (or peace).

 

Again, I'm sorry for your losses.

[elfgivas]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

oh my, i am so sorry about your littlest one....

 

:grouphug:

 

re God....

 

three things:

a) God is all powerful

B) God is loving

c) Bad things happen.

 

we get to pick which two of the three we believe.... i have chosen a loving God in a world where bad things happen. that means God isn't all powerful. i think you are completely right that a loving God would not behave in a way that allows the world to unfold as it has....

 

i wish i could remember the name of the theologian where i first read this, but it was life transforming for me....

 

hth,

ann

 

eta: i found it! it may help you stay in the church a bit longer if that's what you want to do...

 

 

Wishful Thinking: A Seeker's ABC

 

by Frederick Buechner

[albeto]

I assume you'll only want replies from fellow believers, so I'll just say that I'm sorry you're hurting. It sounds like a lot of emotional burdens placed upon you and I wish that wasn't so. I do know just how you feel, fwiw.

[albeto]

dp

[BakersDozen]

I assume you'll only want replies from fellow believers

No, I welcome any insights from anyone. At this point I wouldn't consider myself a "believer", rather a doubter of massive proportion.

[livetoread]

I'm so sorry for your pain. Those are real questions right there, and my pondering them led me to a similar place. You aren't alone.

[goldberry]

I am so sorry for your pain. I agree with you that if I believed that God was responsible for things like these, I could not have love for Him or worship Him. I have reasons why I don't believe that is so. But I don't blame you for coming to that conclusion when many faiths teach that exact thing.

[marbel]

I understand your feelings. I do. I've asked many of the same questions and come to similar conclusions more than once, but I'm never able to stay there. Others who go through terrible things still find great comfort in their faith.

 

 

Death has always happened-- but shouldn't there be a significant difference in the lives of His followers versus those who aren't?

 

 

The Bible is quite clear that believers can and should expect hard times. There are many instances of "bad" people triumphing over "good" people. There is much suffering by God's people in history and there are no promises of an easy life on earth. The difference in the lives of believers is that though they mourn, they believe (as a friend of mine who has suffered much always says) "God is good - always." Even if we can't see it through our human eyes.

 

A book I have found useful is When Life and Beliefs Collide by Carolyn Custis James. But it is still so hard sometimes.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

[Audrey]

No, I welcome any insights from anyone. At this point I wouldn't consider myself a "believer", rather a doubter of massive proportion.

 

I am sorry for your pain. I think you will find that if you continue to question and do some hard thinking on your own, without the influence of others, on all those hard questions you brought up, you will come out the other side with a perspective that is more harmonious with who you are as a person. And, there is where you will be able to find some peace with yourself and your beliefs.

[Moxie]

I understand your feelings. I do. I've asked many of the same questions and come to similar conclusions more than once, but I'm never able to stay there. Others who go through terrible things still find great comfort in their faith.

 

 

 

The Bible is quite clear that believers can and should expect hard times. There are many instances of "bad" people triumphing over "good" people. There is much suffering by God's people in history and there are no promises of an easy life on earth. The difference in the lives of believers is that though they mourn, they believe (as a friend of mine who has suffered much always says) "God is good - always." Even if we can't see it through our human eyes.

 

A book I have found useful is When Life and Beliefs Collide by Carolyn Custis James. But it is still so hard sometimes.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

What does "God is good" mean here on earth? Or is it supposed to be talking about going to heaven?

[Mnemosyne]

:grouphug: :grouphug:

[Mergath]

I am sorry for your pain. I think you will find that if you continue to question and do some hard thinking on your own, without the influence of others, on all those hard questions you brought up, you will come out the other side with a perspective that is more harmonious with who you are as a person. And, there is where you will be able to find some peace with yourself and your beliefs.

 

 

:iagree: completely. You have to figure out what you believe in your heart, without letting others guilt you into following what they think you should believe. You may find that your beliefs won't fit in any box, but they'll be your beliefs, not someone else's, and I've found that there's a good deal of peace in that.

[PrincessMommy]

:grouphug: It is SO tough when tragedy happens. There are no easy answers here on earth.

 

The theodicy debate has been going on for a very long time. One author, who I think tackles it very well is Prof. David Bently Hart. He originally wrote a editorial response to Christians who said the Asian Tsunami was a "judgement from God" as well as the atheists who said "how can you worship a God like that??" then he developed it into a book. I know you're hurting very deeply right now :grouphug: Being angry is okay... there is a time for everything. I hope you find peace & comfort as your mourn your community's loss.

[KayT]

Love, Peace, and :grouphug: .

[Orthodox6]

:grouphug:

 

 

http://www.stnicholasdc.org/files/Prayers/Akathist-of-Thanksgiving.pdf

[milovany]

I've waffled back and forth on whether or not to post this because I don't want it to be like salt in a wound. On the other had, it brings me great comfort and I hope it does the same for you. You said you were looking for different perspectives on this tragedy and so I'll share. Our priest read the following story in a homily recently. From what I understand, it was a tale originally told in South America. This is the place in my life that I'm aspiring to reach. I can't let go of there being a God, and I believe the "one true God" (because that's part of my belief system, too) is the Christian God and I believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. So with that foundation, I have to find a peace with all that happens, "good" or "bad." To me, this is that peace.

 

- - - - - - - - - -

The Woodcutter's Wisdom

 

Once there was an old man who lived in a tiny village. Although poor, he was envied by all, for he owned a beautiful white horse. Even the king coveted his treasure. A horse like this had never been seen before—such was its splendor, its majesty, its strength.

 

People offered fabulous prices for the steed, but the old man always refused. “This horse is not a horse to me,†he would tell them. “It is a person. How could you sell a person? He is a friend, not a possession. How could you sell a friend?†The man was poor and the temptation was great. But he never sold the horse.

 

One morning he found that the horse was not in the stable. All the village came to see him. “You old fool,†they scoffed, “we told you that someone would steal your horse. We warned you that you would be robbed. You are so poor. How could you ever hope to protect such a valuable animal? It would have been better to have sold him. You could have gotten whatever price you wanted. No amount would have been too high. Now the horse is gone, and you’ve been cursed with misfortune.â€

 

The old man responded, “Don’t speak too quickly. Say only that the horse is not in the stable. That is all we know; the rest is judgment. If I’ve been cursed or not, how can you know? How can you judge?â€

 

The people contested, “Don’t make us out to be fools! We may not be philosophers, but great philosophy is not needed. The simple fact that your horse is gone is a curse.â€

The old man spoke again. “All I know is that the stable is empty, and the horse is gone. The rest I don’t know. Whether it be a curse or a blessing, I can’t say. All we can see is a fragment. Who can say what will come next?â€

 

The people of the village laughed. They thought that the man was crazy. They had always thought he was fool; if he wasn’t, he would have sold the horse and lived off the money. But instead, he was a poor woodcutter, an old man still cutting firewood and dragging it out of the forest and selling it. He lived hand to mouth in the misery of poverty. Now he had proven that he was, indeed, a fool.

 

After fifteen days, the horse returned. He hadn’t been stolen; he had run away into the forest. Not only had he returned, he had brought a dozen wild horses with him. Once again the village people gathered around the woodcutter and spoke. “Old man, you were right and we were wrong. What we thought was a curse was a blessing. Please forgive us.â€

 

The man responded, “Once again, you go too far. Say only that the horse is back. State only that a dozen horses returned with him, but don’t judge. How do you know if this is a blessing or not? You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge? You read only one page of a book. Can you judge the whole book? You read only one word of a phrase. Can you understand the entire phrase?

 

“Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. All you have is a fragment! Don’t say that this is a blessing. No one knows. I am content with what I know. I am not perturbed by what I don’t.â€

 

“Maybe the old man is right,†they said to one another. So they said little. But down deep, they knew he was wrong. They knew it was a blessing. Twelve wild horses had returned with one horse. With a little bit of work, the animals could be broken and trained and sold for much money.

 

The old man had a son, an only son. The young man began to break the wild horses. After a few days, he fell from one of the horses and broke both legs. Once again the villagers gathered around the old man and cast their judgments.

 

“You were right,†they said. “You proved you were right. The dozen horses were not a blessing. They were a curse. Your only son has broken his legs, and now in your old age you have no one to help you. Now you are poorer than ever.â€

 

The old man spoke again. “You people are obsessed with judging. Don’t go so far. Say only that my son broke his legs. Who knows if it is a blessing or a curse? No one knows. We only have a fragment. Life comes in fragments.â€

 

It so happened that a few weeks later the country engaged in war against a neighboring country. All the young men of the village were required to join the army. Only the son of the old man was excluded, because he was injured. Once again the people gathered around the old man, crying and screaming because their sons had been taken. There was little chance that they would return. The enemy was strong, and the war would be a losing struggle. They would never see their sons again.

 

“You were right, old man,†they wept. “God knows you were right. This proves it. Yours son’s accident was a blessing. His legs may be broken, but at least he is with you. Our sons are gone forever.â€

 

The old man spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. No one knows. Say only this: Your sons had to go to war, and mine did not. No one knows if it is a blessing or a curse. No one is wise enough to know. Only God knows.â€

[marbel]

What does "God is good" mean here on earth? Or is it supposed to be talking about going to heaven?

 

Well, I believe it means that whatever God does is right and good, even if it does not look that way to us. The belief that even during terrible events, God is doing good, because God is good. The biblical stories of Job and Joseph illustrate this.

 

I still struggle with this myself, so I don't pretend to have all the answers. This is what I've learned from people I know who have deep faith and trust in God, even though they have suffered greatly in life.

[marbel]

Duplicate.

[chiguirre]

I find a visit with Marcus Aurelius helps in times like that.

 

http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html

[alef]

I see God as a wise parent, sometimes allowing children to fail, sometimes allowing children to get hurt, but yes, walking with us, guiding us when we are willing to be guided, comforting us if we are willing to seek comfort. I believe that from God's perspective, and the perspective we will someday share, pain and sorrow and death are temporary trials, a brief moment in the vastness of eternity. We are going through a time of mortality to experience and learn, and some of what we are to experience and learn from includes trials and sorrow and pain and death.

 

Because I view life from the standpoint of LDS theology, I believe that we existed as spirit children of God before we were born on earth. In that prior existence, each of us made a choice to come to earth and experience mortality, knowing that our mortal experience would include pain, sorrow, temptation, and death. Through this experience we would have the opportunity to grow and to learn and to become more like our Heavenly Father. Mortal life, with its joys and sorrows, inspiration and temptation, achievement and failure, pain and joy, fall and salvation, was the plan offered by our Father and accepted by us for our continued growth as his children. Sometimes the lessons seem harder than we can bear, but I do believe that He will not leave us to carry our burdens alone if we are willing to seek and accept his help. I imagine that someday the trials and suffering experienced in mortality will be only memories, while what we gain and attain through our experiences here will be lasting and eternal (in my mind, it is like holding a newborn baby in my arms and looking back at the trials of labor and birth--worth every moment).

 

Since you asked for all perspectives, that is mine. I am sorry this is such a hard time for you :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Truscifi]

:grouphug: I am sorry for the losses you are dealing with, both personally and in your community. I hope you are able to find peace, whatever form it may take. :grouphug:

[albeto]

No, I welcome any insights from anyone.

 

Okay, in that case, I think you're seeing the flaws inherent in the theistic argument. These arguments may have been acceptable to you in the past, but as you experience various events, you modify what you were taught as a child to incorporate what you've learned as an adult. The idea that a person could be taken for a greater purpose doesn't really conform with a modern moral code that says each individual ought to be the author of their own lives, not the property, pawn, or servant of another.

[Little Nyssa]

OP, :grouphug:

[Crimson Wife]

A really good book I read when I was struggling with why God allowed my daughter to have a serious developmental disability is called Disability and the Gospel: How God Uses Our Brokenness to Display His Grace by Rev. Michael Beates. It offers some profound truths as to why God allows bad things to happen when He has the ability to prevent them. I highly encourage you to read it, even if you aren't dealing with disability. Substitute whatever challenge (miscarriage, friend's cancer diagnosis, etc.) for "disability" and it is applicable.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[swellmomma]

I'm on my iPod and it about to die. But the first thing that popped into my mind when I read your post was the book the shack which I am reading currently and focuses on those same questions and feelings

[Mergath]

I'm on my iPod and it about to die. But the first thing that popped into my mind when I read your post was the book the shack which I am reading currently and focuses on those same questions and feelings

 

 

Though, if this is the same book I'm thinking about, I've heard there's some violent content in the beginning, so read with caution. (Let me know if I've got the wrong book in mind.)

[swellmomma]

There is to an extent. Nothing gruesome as far as detail but is about the feelings he had after his little girl was kidnapped and murdered so definitely a trigger for some but it is only a very small piece of the book the rest is about his time in the shack and that is far from violent.

[swellmomma]

There is more detail about his son's near drowning than about the death of his daughter though the 2are connected

[Trish]

Since we're all going to die I don't see a huge reason to blame God because deaths happen. I know a lot of times we *want* to do that, but that's just our short-sighted human nature.

[albeto]

Since we're all going to die I don't see a huge reason to blame God because deaths happen. I know a lot of times we *want* to do that, but that's just our short-sighted human nature.

 

 

Interesting. I don't see it as short sighted human nature, but as making a logical connection stemming from the idea that God is good, and God is powerful.

[Erin]

The kids and I went to Bible camp last week. Our chaplain was talking about our perspective vs. God's and pointed out that God thinks in terms of eternity. He's the Alpha and Omega afterall...

 

To illustrate this to a bunch of kids, he had a 500' spool of string that he passed to a kid to start unrolling. The kid wandered around the room we were in, out the door, around a few trees, back in the door, around the room some more and our chaplain finally stopped him and took back the spool, with string still on it.

Then he held up the end of the string that he was still holding. He'd put a piece of tape on the very end, about 3" long, and held it up.

 

"This, is how long our earthly lives are."

"That," indicating the string, running around the room and out the door, "is how God sees us."

 

 

 

This world is not my home, nor is it yours.

[Roadrunner]

I am not a believer, but in my youth I used to enjoy the writings of a Russian religious and political philosopher Nikolai Berdyaev. Your post made me go dig in my ancient notes for some quotes I had copied. Hope this helps a little.

“If God is present in all evil and suffering, in destruction and misery, in plague and cholera, then faith in God is impossible and rebellion against God is justified… But God is spirit, and he acts within the order of freedom and not of objectified necessity. His activity cannot be understood in naturalistic terms. He is present not in external tings and happenings, to which we attach divine names and in which we perceive a divine purpose, not in the power of powers of this world, but in truth, beauty, love, freedom, and creativity. This precludes all conceptions of God which make of him the subject of power and almightily influences. God has no power; he has less power than a policeman. Power is a social and not a religious phenomenon… god can reconcile man to the sufferings of creation because he himself suffers, not because he reigns.â€

“I do not doubt the existence of God; but I have known moments when my heart and mind were overwhelmed by the terrible thought that the current notion of this relationship may be right – the notion, namely, of God as master and man as serf, of ruler and subject. If this be so, then all is lost, and I am lost too. If this is so, then nothing remains for me but the gaping abyss of nothingness. The most monstrous religious nightmare is that of an evil God whom men, blinded by their slavishness, regard as good.â€

[Rosie_0801]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Quiver0f10]

I understand your feelings. I do. I've asked many of the same questions and come to similar conclusions more than once, but I'm never able to stay there. Others who go through terrible things still find great comfort in their faith.

 

 

 

The Bible is quite clear that believers can and should expect hard times. There are many instances of "bad" people triumphing over "good" people. There is much suffering by God's people in history and there are no promises of an easy life on earth. The difference in the lives of believers is that though they mourn, they believe (as a friend of mine who has suffered much always says) "God is good - always." Even if we can't see it through our human eyes.

 

A book I have found useful is When Life and Beliefs Collide by Carolyn Custis James. But it is still so hard sometimes.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

What does "God is good" mean here on earth? Or is it supposed to be talking about going to heaven?

 

OP, I am so sorry you are hurting. :grouphug: I don't look at things like this as God is responsible, but rather that He allowed it. I think it grieves Him when things like this happen. The reason for pain, suffering and death is sin( I don't mean these 19 men's sin, I mean sin in general as in sin = the fall). God created the World perfect with no death, no pain, no suffering, but because of sin there are these things in the world. One day everything will be made right when Jesus returns. We aren't promised that life will be easy and there will be suffering. Our hope is in Jesus. Even though we die an earthly death, we will one day live again with Him and there will be NO more pain! NO more death! NO more tears!

[countrygal]

Most Christians ask these questions and have doubts sometimes. Sorry you are having such a painful time :( Many suffer, and most feel alone. One thing I know is that God has a different perspective of His Creation that we can't comprehend. Check out Francis Chan on youtube - Living Life from the perspective of eternity. I hope you feel better soon. One day at a time. :grouphug:

[Orthodox6]

Just an observation in passing. . . I read Berdyaev while in my early twenties. Later on learned how he deviates from Orthodoxy enough that one would not turn to his writings (if one is Orthodox) for solid edification. He was a good writer and thinker, though.

[Trish]

 

 

Interesting. I don't see it as short sighted human nature, but as making a logical connection stemming from the idea that God is good, and God is powerful.

 

We're short-sighted in the sense that we see good only in OUR terms, and usually in our current earthly context. God answers "what is the good?" differently than you, I or Plato might.

[Dory]

I get it. I've been there. How could a loving, all powerful God allow a little girl to be constantly used as a s*x toy. I'm sorry things hurt so much right now.

I'd post my views on it from all my searching, but I've learned that on this forum, one does not post something that one doesn't have the energy or emotional stability to defend. Just wanted you to know there's one more person who understands the confusion and pain you are feeling to some extent.

[Kaleidoscope]

I totally get your feelings on this. I've had, or maybe still have, similar feelings. I don't understand God. I still believe though. I wasn't sure I did for awhile. I definitely challenged every thought I ever had about God but in the end I still believed. I don't however relate to him as a loving, caring, kind God. He's just God.

[Trish]

It still hurts.

[JennifersLost]

I have never seen God as all-powerful. I see God more as a creator that had a certain set of tools to work with. An artist working with clay knows that there are things you can do and things you can't do with the medium. No matter how amazing an artist you are, you can't make clay act in a way that clay can't act.

 

I think that the rules of science explain the medium that God had to work with in order to create our universe. If he wanted to make light, there had to be darkness. In order for there to be life, there had to be death. In order for there to be health there had to be sickness, and on and on. The actual, physical medium God had to work with was molecules (atoms, etc), and molecules themselves are governed by rules and laws.

 

I know a religious person would say God made the laws that govern these building blocks, but I don't believe that. Because if I did believe it then I couldn't relate to God at all, and wouldn't want to.

 

I believe that the moment God chose to take that medium and create a Universe was either the most brave or the most reckless thing that's ever been done - knowing all that bad that can happen as well as the good. I am sooooo glad I'm not the entity that had to make the decision to put this creation in motion.

 

This Universe is not for the faint of heart. Life is not for the faint-of-heart. The more I mother, the more I realize just how harrowing a decision creating life had to be for whoever/whatever made that decision. I can only imagine God is sitting wherever God sits biting his/her nails the same way I do whenever one of my children steps out my door, and is alternately horrified and transfixed over the terror and beauty of the creation he unleashed.

 

I think our biggest problem these days is that we buy the story that our advertisements and feel-good movies and novels tell us; that we can have a happy, safe life. It doesn't exist for any of us. We need to realize that any time we get a peaceful moment, a real belly-laugh or a kiss that knocks our socks off, it's a gift - and a fleeting one.

 

The only thing for it is to throw yourself into the crucible of life and hold on for the whole wild ride. Mourn when it's time to mourn, endure when it's time to endure, and when it's time to laugh, laugh with your whole heart and soul.

 

Wish I had something to say to bolster your faith, OP - hugs to you and everyone in your community.

[BakersDozen]

I don't understand God. I still believe though. I wasn't sure I did for awhile. I definitely challenged every thought I ever had about God but in the end I still believed. I don't however relate to him as a loving, caring, kind God. He's just God.

This is exactly how I feel right now.

 

It's busy time here but I wanted to say a quick thank you to all who responded and sent me PMs. I will respond to each as I have time. Thank you all for being gentle with me despite my rather strong post. Thank you for letting this be a safe place to post so bluntly/openly. My beliefs are changing...have been changing for some time. It's a bit scary yet a bit freeing as well. Less pressure to try and feel something I "should", if that makes sense.

 

Kids need me...have to run but will continue to ponder over everyone's words.

[ajfries]

I'm sorry you're going through such a difficult time. I've got to tend to the kiddos, usually I'd leave a big long reply, but instead I'll just link ;) You might find this article interesting

Why Does God Allow Suffering?

[Twigs]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[FloridaLisa]

I think it is good to ask the hard questions (when it is done with all sincerity as I believe you are doing and when you really want the answer). I wonder if John the Baptist was thinking something along this line when he was in prison and sent two of his disciples to question whether Jesus was the One or whether they should expect someone else? Perhaps after all he did to preach repentance and baptism, even baptising Jesus, John the Baptist was doubting God after he was imprisoned (and later beheaded). Why would a good God allow that? Or any tragedy? Or mass suffering?

 

There is so much I could talk to you about on this hard question, but now might not be the right time. I have personally found good answers after much honest seeking on this question. Not every believer has worked through these questions and there is, I believe, some faulty theology floating around out there.

 

One of my favorite verses is Proverbs 25:2 "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;to search out a matter is the glory of kings." I believe God will answer as we seek answers honestly. Hard questions SHOULD be asked and God is capable of answering them.

 

Hugs to you tonight.

Lisa

[Incognito]

I think that the way we view death may be a bit skewed - why is death a tragedy? If one believes in God, then isn't death union with God? Death is sad for those left behind, because we miss the person.

 

Death isn't evil. We will all die. Lower life forms are dying all the time around us every day. Plants, bugs, animals. My dinner. If all death is evil, every gardener is evil weeding. We digest and kill untold millions of bacteria all the time. Now I'm not trying to say that people are the same as all other kinds of living things, but I'm just extrapolating the death theme. If death itself were evil, how could a good God even create anything? All living things die.

 

Fires burning people is tragedy, but I suppose one could dissect the reason behind the fire itself. What have we done as people to put those firefighters in danger? Could an all-powerful God have stopped it? I would think so. Is it wrong to not stop it? I think that is questionable.