Mega vent! Hospitals, birth and breastfeeding.

[StaceyinLA]

I just HAVE to vent, gripe, moan, complain, etc. I am SO mad my blood is boiling.

 

My niece (nephew's wife) went in yesterday for her ob appt. in labor (3rd baby). She wasn't due for a week and a half, but was in pretty consistent labor and 2 cm at her appt. At 12:30 p.m., they sent her over to the hospital, where, when checked again, she had already dilated another cm. So what do the geniuses do? They go ahead and break her water and start pit. (I'm guessing the doc wanted to be sure she was delivered by the time she got off).

 

She had the baby at 6 p.m. After he was cleaned up she was able to nurse him, but they stopped her and took him because he was making "grunting" noises. She was told that because he delivered so fast, he might have fluid in his lungs and they wanted to monitor him in the nursery.

 

In the nursery, they ran bloodwork, monitored his breathing, etc. She was told at 9 that they couldn't bring him back until the blood results came in. At 10, she was told his oxygen sats were perfect, and his bloodwork was perfect, but he was still making grunting noises so they were keeping him in the nursery, and were going to put an ng and tube feed him formula. When she asked about going in there to nurse him, she was told there wasn't room. Now when we went to see him, he was in a HUGE nursery with ONE other baby - 3 nurses were sitting at a table on their iPhones. There was room in that da** nursery for her to go sit in a rocker and nurse her son.

 

Thank GOD my niece was adamant about the formula, and the baby was sleepy enough that he didn't wake until the "observation" time was up, so they finally brought him to her at MIDNIGHT, and she was able to nurse him and he has been fine ever since.

 

I, however, am NOT fine. They augmented her labor when she was laboring fine on her own because they wanted to hurry things along. The baby is then born TOO fast (a situation THEY created), and has to be taken because he has issues from being born too fast (ridiculous anyway - he had ZERO issues), and then, to top it off, they are going to give him formula because they are worried about him aspirating while nursing even though he nursed FINE after birth.

 

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???? I am about to bust with the sheer ignorance shown here. This is at the "best" maternity hospital in town. AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

[Mom-ninja.]

Yep, it's sad. We have one of the worst rates in developed countries as far as birth goes. Yet people say I'm brave for staying home to have babies. Nope. I'm a coward. I'm scared the doctor, nurses, and hospital will screw things up.

[LaxMom]

I've found that, in maternity hospital lingo, "best" generally means highest intervention. I'd have been berserk at the suggestion of breaking my water and the discussion would have gone downhill from there.

[StaceyinLA]

Agreed on both counts. Of course my niece wasn't really worried about some of the interventions because she was having an epidural (of course had she realized they'd keep her baby after, I'm sure she would've thought differently - she was bawling crying when they wouldn't bring him to her), but the fact that they create so many "problems" just makes me ill. Honestly, if you don't like to be awakened at 2 a.m., don't become an ob. This business with trying to have women deliver on their schedule just makes me sick. That's not even taking into account the traumatic effects on the babies after birth.

[Random]

Yep, it's sad. We have one of the worst rates in developed countries as far as birth goes. Yet people say I'm brave for staying home to have babies. Nope. I'm a coward. I'm scared the doctor, nurses, and hospital will screw things up.

 

 

This is me, too. No way I'd go to a hospital for a low-risk birth.

[msjones]

That's terrible.

 

I'm wondering where you live. Hospitals around here advertise their lack of intervention and most offer midwives and lactation consultants. I had two terrific hospital births.

 

I'm very glad the little guy is indeed okay. I was getting nervous reading your post!

[freesia]

Ridiculous! I had one brought to the NICU for the same problem. They never suggested formula. They woke me up to feed him.

[Moxie]

Sorry but your niece shares some blame here. It is up to us to inform ourselves of the of the options and risks before going to the hospital. She could have refused all the interventions.

[I.Dup.]

Yep, feeling helpless against whatever whims the nurses and doctors have is one of the reasons we now choose to homebirth.

[dirty ethel rackham]

This is what I fought very hard when I was a childbirth educator for 12 years. It drove me nuts. It also drove me nuts when my students would be compliant patients at hospitals known to be highly interventive (where every supposedly need was iatrogenic.) They were given plenty of information ahead of time about what they were facing and still chose to go there because they "loved their doctor." Then they would whine that my classes didn't do any good. Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I gave up teaching after I saw a big change in the birth climate where we are. Whenever I can, I volunteer for the local efforts to recognize CPMs in our state.

[Ameena]

After the experience I had with DD, I will never give birth in a hospital if I can help it. The L&D room was filthy with the entire bathroom full of laundry unwashed, they cranked the pit up to double the regular dose {thankfully a subbing nurse turned it down}, and then made dd stay for 3 days even though she had no sign of infection because my water broke more than 24 hours before I came in to the hospital {I was at home trying to get labor started on my own, with no signs of infection}. And then there is the whole issue of them pressuring you into doing shots - don't even get me started on that.

 

Glad to hear the little one is okay. I don't know about all babies, but my dd grunted when hungry when she was that tiny.

[bolt.]

That's disgusting.

 

I can't believe (well I do believe it, I don't think this is a false story or anything) but I just can't *fathom* that there are still medical establishments that think they can *kidnap* a newborn out of the custody of his or her mother -- not seeking consent, and acting like they have legal custody of the infant for no other reason than that they have ideas about the baby's possible medical needs.

 

And WHY can they do this? Because mothers who have just given birth are too weak to do anything but cry and beg and appear to agree that *nurses* are in charge of babies, and parents need *their* permission to do things.

 

Honestly, if that baby was 6 days older, everyone would know that their conduct was both unethical and probably illegal -- including the mother, who wouldn't have been so dopey (medically, not as an insult) that she thought her tears and her voice were her only power in the situation.

 

You take *my* baby off my breast and refuse to let me feed him/her??? Nurse or not, you are going to have to use restraints and locked doors and probably narcotics to keep me passive about that -- and that would be not only kidnapping but assault. It's MY child, and 'you' will seek MY permission to do various medical procedures. You will do them in my presence or not at all, and you will not attempt to pressure me in any way. I will not seek 'your' permission to feed my child, or to enter any room where my child is -- and if 'you' object to that arrangement, I will not seek 'your' permission to pick up *MY* child and leave your property.

 

Right now your niece is a mom of a newborn, but, eventually, her story and experiences need to feed the fire of advocacy.

 

Babies are in their parent's legal custody from the moment they exit the womb, and all medical procedures should respect that dynamic as much for a newborn as they would for a child of any age.

[I.Dup.]

 

You take *my* baby off my breast and refuse to let me feed him/her??? Nurse or not, you are going to have to use restraints and locked doors and probably narcotics to keep me passive about that -- and that would be not only kidnapping but assault. It's MY child, and 'you' will seek MY permission to do various medical procedures. You will do them in my presence or not at all, and you will not attempt to pressure me in any way. I will not seek 'your' permission to feed my child, or to enter any room where my child is -- and if 'you' object to that arrangement, I will not seek 'your' permission to pick up *MY* child and leave your property.

 

The problem with this is that they can report you for going "against medical advice." It really is a shame.

[Lizzie in Ma]

 

You take *my* baby off my breast and refuse to let me feed him/her??? Nurse or not, you are going to have to use restraints and locked doors and probably narcotics to keep me passive about that -- and that would be not only kidnapping but assault. It's MY child, and 'you' will seek MY permission to do various medical procedures. You will do them in my presence or not at all, and you will not attempt to pressure me in any way. I will not seek 'your' permission to feed my child, or to enter any room where my child is -- and if 'you' object to that arrangement, I will not seek 'your' permission to pick up *MY* child and leave your property.

 

You said it sister!!

[Lizzie in Ma]

 

The problem with this is that they can report you for going "against medical advice." It really is a shame.

 

So what? They can't do anything about it. I was informed that would be the case and there were never any repercussions to it then or since.

[mamajudy]

She went to the hospital too soon. The sooner you go in, the more opportunity they have to intervene in a perfectly normal labor. That's exactly the reason I never went to the hospital until I was just about ready to deliver. ( I was too chicken to deliver at home) As for the breastfeeding, it's outrageous that they wouldn't let her feed her baby. Thankfully, the baby is doing well, though. And once she takes him home they'll settle into a routine. It will be ok. Hopefully, next time, she won't head for the hospital when she's just barely in labor.

[Shamzanne]

That is infuriating. I wish the media would get behind printing stories like this to shame doctors and hospitals into changing their practices.

[WistfulRidge]

Yep, it's sad. We have one of the worst rates in developed countries as far as birth goes. Yet people say I'm brave for staying home to have babies. Nope. I'm a coward. I'm scared the doctor, nurses, and hospital will screw things up.

 

This. Had a hospital birth with DS1 and they *did* screw things up. I hemorrhaged pretty bad and have some pretty severe cervical scarring thanks to the "necessary" interventions. My blood still boils every time I think about it. :cursing:

 

:grouphug: For your niece. Having been in pretty much that exact situation the worst thing is that they take the baby from you and make it practically impossible to get him/her back from their precious nursery. With DS1 the nurses kept coming back every time I'd fall asleep/go to the bathroom and try and take him away. My complete terror of hospitals had kept me far more passive than I should have been during birth but after I finally (hours after he was born) had DS1 in my possession there was no way I was letting him out of my sight again. The second time I caught a nurse trying to take him (out of my ARMS!) while I was dozing and whisk him away to the nursery I told them if they tried it again I'd be filing kidnapping charges.

[Tammyla]

Poor baby. Sadly, thre are so many hospitals who have a rushed approached to labor and delivery.

[Annie]

And WHY can they do this? Because mothers who have just given birth are too weak to do anything but cry and beg and appear to agree that *nurses* are in charge of babies, and parents need *their* permission to do things.

 

Augh! Isn't that the truth!

 

I was educated, informed, and well prepared, but then my lovely homebirth turned into a transfer and a cesarean. By the time the surgery was over I had been awake and in labor for almost 40 hours. I had hardly been able to force myself to eat anything most of that time, I lost a bunch of blood, and the meds made my mind even fuzzier than it would have otherwise been. I had pushed for something like 7 hours. My body was so done. I don't think I've ever been more vulnerable in my life. I had been told before surgery that if we were both stable, my baby would be in recovery with me, and although I had complications during my cesarean, we *were* both stable afterwards. Some nurse on a power trip wouldn't release my baby from the nursery. By the time I was able to leave recovery, it was shift change, and they said they could do nothing for 30 more minutes while they switched. That turned into 45 minutes of course. I didn't get to see my baby for over three hours even though we were both healthy. Looking back, it seems so ridiculous. I should have thrown the biggest fit known to man and demanded my baby. If I had been in anything resembling my normal mind that is what I would have done. It is not in my nature to blindly follow the rules, but by that point, I was so weak and beat down, all I could do was cry. When I think of those hours that my baby needlessly spent all alone under bright lights when he should have been snuggled to my breast in comfort I want to spit nails. It used to make me sad, but now it just makes me mad. While he was in the nursery, he was given the vitamin K injection that I had specifically signed a waiver against. My HB midwife saw them give it through the nursery window. The fact that it was given was not marked in his chart, but the fact that I refused it was mentioned several times.

 

I won't go into all of the other countless things that were said and done which could have sabotaged our breastfeeding relationship during the terrible six days we were there because I don't want to spend the rest of the day angry. I was 100% committed to breastfeeding. I had gone to a class, read books, gone to LLL meetings while pregnant. The whole nine yards. I barely got out of that hospital still breastfeeding exclusively. I had to fight every step of the way. I'm pretty sure there weren't any nurses that were sad to see me go. :lol:

 

My next baby will be a planned cesarean because I'm not a VBAC candidate due to the surgical complications I had. I will be going in to the hospital well nourished and after a full night of sleep. I've had three years to think about how this next birth will be different than my first. I pity the person who tries to remove my baby from my sight. Seriously. This time WILL be different.

 

Hugs to your niece and her sweet baby. Tell her how strong she is and make her believe it.

[Luanne]

When I had my daughter 24 years ago, my doctor was trying to get out of town to go hunting so he intentionally delayed doing a c-section so he could leave. He had one of the other doctors in his office come in and take care of it. I was NOT happy to say the least. Everything turned out ok, fortunately, but .................

[StaceyinLA]

Sorry but your niece shares some blame here. It is up to us to inform ourselves of the of the options and risks before going to the hospital. She could have refused all the interventions.

 

 

Oh I absolutely agree. However, I think doctors and nurses prey on those that are un/undereducated regarding birth/hospital policies, etc. They DID nip the formula thing in the bud, but the hospital should've never had that on the table - they tout themselves as "breastfeeding friendly."

 

And we are in Louisiana - Baton Rouge is where the hospital is.

 

FWIW, my daughter had a hospital birth with midwives in the same city (different hospital) in December - water birth with almost no interventions (she did have a hep lock but that was it), and it was wonderful. Her baby was actually born quickly and had more fluid in her lungs than normal, but they handled all that right there in the room with dd and never removed the baby.

[StaceyinLA]

She went to the hospital too soon. The sooner you go in, the more opportunity they have to intervene in a perfectly normal labor. That's exactly the reason I never went to the hospital until I was just about ready to deliver. ( I was too chicken to deliver at home) As for the breastfeeding, it's outrageous that they wouldn't let her feed her baby. Thankfully, the baby is doing well, though. And once she takes him home they'll settle into a routine. It will be ok. Hopefully, next time, she won't head for the hospital when she's just barely in labor.

 

 

Well, in her defense on that one, she delivered both her other babies within a few hours, and they live an hour from the hospital. Since she wasn't planning to go natural, I'm guessing she didn't want to be in the throes of active labor while in the car.

[delaney]

That stinks. My last was a grunter and they simply told me that if he continued to do it they would have to take him for a treatment. I love my hospital. You deliver and they do everything in the room you stay in. All the equipment comes out of the wall so the baby essentially never needs to leave your room!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't like the 'blame the mother' notion.

 

Certainly, America's mothers need to be informed and empowered. Get the facts, make decisions, hire a doula, hedge your bets.

 

But please, please remember there is no more vulnerable time in a female mammal's life than when giving birth! On some level, she is helpless.

 

I want education, but I also want legislation. I want consequences for medical personnel who force unnecessary interventions or who threaten the mother with the removal of her child if she does not submit.

[alef]

When my second child was born, they took him to the nursery and wouldn't bring him back for several hours--with no reason at all, except that they were supposed to do the heal prick and they were too "busy" to get to it.

 

Since then, I don't let the baby leave my sight. When they insisted on taking #3 to the nursery for routine procedures (same hospital, same standard operating procedure), I went with her. With post-partem mom standing in the room, they took care of what they needed to really fast and got us back to our room. Other hospitals I have been able to just keep the babies in the room for everything.

[StaceyinLA]

I don't like the 'blame the mother' notion.

 

Certainly, America's mothers need to be informed and empowered. Get the facts, make decisions, hire a doula, hedge your bets.

 

But please, please remember there is no more vulnerable time in a female mammal's life than when giving birth! On some level, she is helpless.

 

I want education, but I also want legislation. I want consequences for medical personnel who force unnecessary interventions or who threaten the mother with the removal of her child if she does not submit.

 

 

 

I agree with this. While I DO think education is VERY important, I feel that the medical establishment really preys on a mother's desire to do anything for her baby (up to and including an unnecessary c-section to "save" the baby who is "distressed"). I DO value c-sections when they are truly needed, but how many c-sections are given to mothers because of hospital-induced issues?

 

The hospital my niece was at has a 48% c-section rate - 48%!!! The hospital where my daughter delivered my dgd - 11% (mostly midwives). UNbelievable!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

48%!!!!! That is shocking. I cannot even imagine. Do they not realize what they are saying there? They are saying with that record that they believe almost half of women are unable to to birth as nature designed. Unreal.

[celticmom]

I don't like the 'blame the mother' notion.

 

Certainly, America's mothers need to be informed and empowered. Get the facts, make decisions, hire a doula, hedge your bets.

 

But please, please remember there is no more vulnerable time in a female mammal's life than when giving birth! On some level, she is helpless.

 

I want education, but I also want legislation. I want consequences for medical personnel who force unnecessary interventions or who threaten the mother with the removal of her child if she does not submit.

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: I especially like the bolded. Maybe if they were facing real consequences for their behavior things would change. And by real consequences I would definitely include the possibility of prison time. If ANYONE else did many of the things some medical personnel think they can get away with there would definitely be criminal charges.

[unsinkable]

48%!!!!! That is shocking. I cannot even imagine. Do they not realize what they are saying there? They are saying with that record that they believe almost half of women are unable to to birth as nature designed. Unreal.

 

I agree with you but I'd also like to know if it is the hospital in the area that does high risk deliveries.

[bolt.]

If I had been in anything resembling my normal mind that is what I would have done. It is not in my nature to blindly follow the rules, but by that point, I was so weak and beat down, all I could do was cry.

That's exactly and *only* the reason they get away with this stuff. That's why it makes me so mad.

 

I hope my previous post didn't sound mother-blaming, as if I would have done a better job of being a 'mama bear' -- by and large, labor will take the fight out of any woman, and if she can't trust the people around her to respect her rights and wishes, she is at their mercy.

 

They need to be held accountable, and I know it does work, because both of my hospital experiences were full of, "Do you consent to..." and "Would you like to accompany her to..." -- with a complete lack of baby snatching, and certainly no refusal to give my baby back. I'm in Canada, and so the 'socialized' healthcare system means that the entire gov't is held responsible if patients are mistreated. You see news stories to that effect from time to time, and I think that probably keeps things in check a bit. (Not that things don't go wrong, just that I think it has some effect.)

[prairiewindmomma]

Some hospitals are really awful.....we don't deliver locally because they are that bad....but depending on what was going on, it does seem reasonable with the grunting that they took the baby back for observation and that they would ng feed if baby was in true respiratory distress rather than have it make the effort to nurse. When preemie baby was born, they let her try to breathe on her own for a bit just to see what she would do, and when she couldn't hack it, then they put her on cpap and put in an iv....

 

I agree, though, there is an over use of pit and other methods of induction....

[AMJ]

 

The problem with this is that they can report you for going "against medical advice." It really is a shame.

 

Been there, done that. CPS was called, reviewed our situation (with the house and me an absolute mess -- had just moved in 3 weeks before the baby was born), and declared we knew what we were doing, made a medically sound decision, and our baby was not at risk.

 

This happened while our pediatrician was on vacation. Since he was a solo practitioner he had an arrangement with other pediatricians to cover while he was gone. One problem doctor, who took the overnight shift, caused all the fuss, and the hospital had a policy of always going with the private doctor over one of their own when there is disagreement. Despite the fact that the emergency pediatrician who handled our DD's case was HIGHLY experienced with infant cyanosis, the on-call pediatrician who countermanded the emergency pediatrician had NEVER seen our DD or any of us and had no practical experience with infant cyanosis, and we, the parents, were standing right there stating we preferred going with the expert. Nope, private doc still trumped expert doc. That was when we removed our DD from that hospital. We went right back to the dr handling the daytime shift at our pediatrician's office, and told her we wanted nothing to do with the other guy. Upon his return our pediatrician promptly dumped the other guy from all future agreements, and within a few months had found a really great partner to bring in to share the load.

[Moxie]

 

 

I want education, but I also want legislation. I want consequences for medical personnel who force unnecessary interventions or who threaten the mother with the removal of her child if she does not submit.

 

I disagree. I think there is already too much legislation surrounding childbirth. That is why there is so much intervention. A c-section has a very predictable outcome from a medical POV; natural childbirth is a wildcard. We're going to get to a point where doctors will no longer be willing to deliver babies.

[mommymilkies]

 

 

I agree with this. While I DO think education is VERY important, I feel that the medical establishment really preys on a mother's desire to do anything for her baby (up to and including an unnecessary c-section to "save" the baby who is "distressed"). I DO value c-sections when they are truly needed, but how many c-sections are given to mothers because of hospital-induced issues?

 

The hospital my niece was at has a 48% c-section rate - 48%!!! The hospital where my daughter delivered my dgd - 11% (mostly midwives). UNbelievable!

I completely agree. I had to fight doctors for four of my births. They all insisted on c-sections even though my surgeon (I had a myomectomy) was adamant that it was unnecessary. One even LIED about me having a previa. I went through 5 separate u/s and they all showed I did not, but he still insisted I did and that I had no choice. Needless to say, I stopped going and had a homebirth. I really, really, really distrust OBs. I love midwives, though, and had one for my last birth. Our hospital also has an over 38% c-section rate. It's a crime. It really is.

 

As for predictability with c-sections, it triples the maternal death rate, as well as fetal death rate. It's not so easy.

[Mom23Boys]

 

 

Oh I absolutely agree. However, I think doctors and nurses prey on those that are un/undereducated regarding birth/hospital policies, etc. They DID nip the formula thing in the bud, but the hospital should've never had that on the table - they tout themselves as "breastfeeding friendly."

 

And we are in Louisiana - Baton Rouge is where the hospital is.

 

FWIW, my daughter had a hospital birth with midwives in the same city (different hospital) in December - water birth with almost no interventions (she did have a hep lock but that was it), and it was wonderful. Her baby was actually born quickly and had more fluid in her lungs than normal, but they handled all that right there in the room with dd and never removed the baby.

 

 

I am surprised to hear this. I am assuming you mean the hospital that just built a new campus? I had all three of my kids there (old campus, obviously lol) and had great experiences. There was one nurse who kinda tried to push formula, but another nurse there at the time stopped that really quickly. And that was one nurse out of all 3 births. All the other nurses were very pro breastfeeding. I never had trouble, but some of my friends had trouble *getting* them to take the baby to the nursery at night so they could sleep.

 

Also, my 3rd baby was born really fast. I had pitocin when I was 10 cms dilated and he wasn't even engaged. But, I labored on my own to 10 and it was less than 3 hours. Anyway, he was grunting and he stayed in the room with me, they just checked him more often. He did have nore fluid in his lungs than a normal vaginal birth, but they handled it in the room. The only one of mine to have to go to the nursery was my 1st and his APGAR score was 2.

 

I am not saying I don't believe you or anything, just I have had great experiences and so has pretty much every one I know who has delivered there. I guess it depends on the dr and nursing staff you get. My own OB has delivered all 3 of my kids. 1st was induced, I went into labor on my own on my drs on call days for the other 2.

 

There is one particular hospital in town that has mid-wives and I would have to be unconscious to ever go there (in general, but I would be very hesitant to give birth there too). I went to the ER and they gave me shots and prescriptions without ever asking me what meds I was already on. I knew the meds were okay, but still. I know other people who love that hospital.

[Mom23Boys]

I agree with you but I'd also like to know if it is the hospital in the area that does high risk deliveries.

 

 

Yes it is.

[vonfirmath]

Sorry but your niece shares some blame here. It is up to us to inform ourselves of the of the options and risks before going to the hospital. She could have refused all the interventions.

 

Agreed. My OB gave me more time to try to go into labor on my own when I wasn't ready to induce. (but we'd already talked about I was completely NOT willing to go 2 weeks over due to family history). And she didn't break my water when she was first suggesting because I was not ready. Despite being a pit induction at a hospital I was fully in control of the things that mattered to me.

 

Oh and the hospital didn't have a nursery. If you wanted the nurses to take your baby for a time so you could sleep, etc. They would. But they would take the baby to their duty stations with them because there was no other place.

[Moxie]

 

As for predictability with c-sections, it triples the maternal death rate, as well as fetal death rate. It's not so easy.

 

I keep hearing stats like this but I'm not sure I buy it. I know LOADS of people who have had C-sections. Baby and Mom were fine. I honestly know no one, not even a distant relative or friend of a friend, who died or lost a child in a C-section. I really question that stat.

[forty-two]

With my last baby, he had severe jaundice and spent time under the lights before we were both discharged, plus we ended up going back for a transfusion and more lights a day late. And while the hospital was a pretty good one, respectful of me and what I wanted, there was still a fundamental difference between being a mom *and* a patient on the maternity floor and being *just* the mom on the pediatric floor. I don't know how much was me and my perceptions, and how much was the differences in how the nurses and doctors treated me, but I felt much more empowered when we were in pediatrics. I was treated as a real partner in his care, as a fully capable adult, as his *mother*. Not that anyone treated me badly on the maternity floor - they were great about me coming in to nurse him whenever, plus they would come and get me if he needed to nurse - but it felt like they were "giving me permission" to be with my baby whenever I wanted.

 

IMO there's something about being a patient yourself that seems to rob new mothers of power - that by needing to be taken care of, you are sort of assumed to be in no position to be fully responsible for someone else. On pediatrics, it felt sometimes like everyone forget I was only 4 days postpartum (I was very glad I was having an easy recovery) - they just saw me as "mom-partner in care", not "mom-who-has-just-given-birth-and-needs-care". On the plus side, they treated me as a full partner in my baby's care. But on the minus side, many women who've just given birth need some physical consideration, and I was on my own for that. Idk, it seems that in general it's hard to see adults who need physical help of some sort as fully capable and responsible adults - that people somehow act as if physical incapability makes someone mentally incapable as well - and so mom-patients are treated more patronizingly because they are slotted into the "needs care" role - that makes them seem "less capable" than they would otherwise seem.

[LMD]

I know the feeling OP - I was literally in tears of rage over how someone close to me was treated by her Ob. She wasn't as mad, and luckily things turned out ok, but far out - I was ready to go in swinging. He actually said 'I don't like my ladies to go more than 3 days overdue' :ack2: , had her travel in (30+minutes with a toddler) every second day for half an hour of monitoring from 39 weeks, starting pushing for a repeat cesear then (no medical need at all!), pulled the dead baby card when she refused... :banghead: It was pure luck she got her vbac, even when in labour they were pushing for a cesear.

 

I know there are lots of great Obs, but this makes me furious! None of my babies left my (or dh's) side once born for a second, and I left the hospital AMA more than once (I signed the forms), no one said a word.

[rjand6more]

I'm dealing with some similar issues right now. Seriously sad.

 

My baby boy was born 2 weeks ago. I had a good labor/delivery with a midwife. He was born quickly and had some breathing issues due to mucus. He nursed for 30 or so minutes after birth. When he went to the nursery, he had low blood sugar and the nurse wanted to give him 10 cc of formula. I said ok. She said it was the "cure". Well, they stuck him again in an hour-still low so they gave him 10cc again. An hour later it was still low, so the ped said to supplement with 10 cc of formula every 4 hours and do checks after. I agreed(reluctantly). His numbers went up, but did not stay up when he was only taking breast milk. Then the ped said to give 1 oz every 2 hours. I said absolutely no. He was a lazy nurser already because of the formula. Unfortunately he quickly got used to having a fuller tummy and I had to "wean" him off the formula as mt milk came in. Although they were so concerned about his blood sugar in the hospital, they acted like he was fine to go home without monitoring it. The ped said the hospital was in the process of changing their policy about checking blood sugars because they were spending a lot of time "chasing labs" on healthy babies.

 

Yesterday I took baby in for a newborn check(first one out of the hospital). I mentioned the blood sugar and she said he was fine(without checking it!) But he was jaundice from breastfeeding. She sent me in for bloodwork and guess what the cure is??????? Stop breastfeeding and give formula for 24 hours!!!!!!! She said he must not be getting enough milk. Maybe I was not producing enough. I felt sure I was(this is my 6th-I have always exclusively breastfed for extended ages). I was able to pump. Although I am sore and it hurt a lot, I was able to pump 14 oz. Um, no problem with production.

 

When did the answer to all these newborn problems become formula??

 

So, I feel like had I not spent about 10 years of my life breastfeeding, I would be so discouraged and little babe would be on formula. So sad.

[ktgrok]

Sorry but your niece shares some blame here. It is up to us to inform ourselves of the of the options and risks before going to the hospital. She could have refused all the interventions.

 

 

I'm going to disagree with this attitude of blame the mother. I get that in this day and age the only way to get reasonable care is to do all the research yourself. But, it shouldn't be that way. Women SHOULD be able to trust their care provider. It is pathetic and ridiculous and shameful that they cannot. Why on earth are we even hiring a doctor at all, if we can't trust them to do what is best? If I get on a plane, and the plane crashes because the pilot made a mistake, no one will blame me for not knowing how to fly the plane so I can correct him. It is assumed that you bought a seat on a commercial flight because you trust that the pilot knows what he is doing. It SHOULD be the same for medical care. I have been blessed to have had a wonderful midwife my last two births (home births) that I COULD trust, and that had my health and my baby's health first and foremost. Every woman should have that. It is hurtful to blame women. I have sat at so many ICAN meetings watching women cry and beat themselves up about trusting their doctor, or following medical advice. And every time I say this was NOT your fault, it was theirs!

[ktgrok]

I keep hearing stats like this but I'm not sure I buy it. I know LOADS of people who have had C-sections. Baby and Mom were fine. I honestly know no one, not even a distant relative or friend of a friend, who died or lost a child in a C-section. I really question that stat.

 

 

The number is somewhere in the 1 per thousands, so it makes sense that you wouldn't know someone it happened to. But the evidence is very clear that a c-section is more dangerous for the mother than vaginal delivery. Any OB will admit that. Add in that each c-section also raises the risks for the NEXT pregnancy because of possible placental implantation problems, and it really is much riskier than a vaginal birth.

[Murphy101]

I've had to fight tooth and nail for decent care with all my deliveries. Personally the one hospital I felt really safe recommending turned out to be the one that gave me a cesarean without anthesthic with my last. So there goes that last faint glimmer of hope for a rational delivery for me.

 

I'm not anywhere near as terrified of having another baby as I am of knowing I have no choice but to seek delivery in any of our near by hospitals. I thought I might have an itty bitty sliver of a chance of being pregnant a few months ago and the mere thought of seeking OB/hospital care for pregnancy literally made me throw up and breakout in a cold sweat. Seriously. Closest I've ever come to a panic attack right there in the middle of Walgreens over even buying a pregnancy test. Pathetic.

 

Oh and I agree with a previous poster. The only way we ever found to avoid all that taking the baby nonsense was that my husband insisted on staying with the baby and basicly nagged and looked over their shoulder the entire time so they were in a hurry to get him and thus baby back to me quick.

[ktgrok]

48%!!!!! That is shocking. I cannot even imagine. Do they not realize what they are saying there? They are saying with that record that they believe almost half of women are unable to to birth as nature designed. Unreal.

 

 

Welcome to my world. The lowest c-section rate in my area is 35%. The two biggest hospitals are over 45%. (and one charges 10,000 more for the surgery, oddly).

[mommymilkies]

I keep hearing stats like this but I'm not sure I buy it. I know LOADS of people who have had C-sections. Baby and Mom were fine. I honestly know no one, not even a distant relative or friend of a friend, who died or lost a child in a C-section. I really question that stat.

 

 

You don't have to believe it for it to be true. And guess what, it's not the Mom's fault then, either, a vast majority of the time. The numbers are "low", still, but every death is a shame. C-section is completely medically necessary for some people. It has saved many lives. But jumping to a c-section too fast can have serious reprecussions. C-sections should be done for valid medical reasons, not because a doctor is in a rush.

 

“About 36 women per 100,000 die while undergoing a Caesarean section, or C-section, compared with9.2 deaths per 100,000 vaginal deliveries, according to a published study in the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology.â€

 

“The case fatality rate for all caesarean sections is six times that for vaginal delivery, and even for elective caesarean section the rate is almost three times as great. These differences are highly significant. In the absence of other evidence (eg, from randomised controlled trials of different modes of delivery), it is not appropriate to be dogmatic about best practice, but any decision to undertake major surgery with an associated mortality should be taken very seriously by all concerned.â€

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2805%2976016-5/fulltext?refuid=S0002-9378%252808%252900268-8&refissn=0002-9378'>http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2805%2976016-5/fulltext?refuid=S0002-9378%252808%252900268-8&refissn=0002-9378'>http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2805%2976016-5/fulltext?refuid=S0002-9378%252808%252900268-8&refissn=0002-9378'>http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2805%2976016-5/fulltext?refuid=S0002-9378%252808%252900268-8&refissn=0002-9378

 

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673605760165/table?tableid=tbl1&tableidtype=table_id&sectionType=lightBluehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4075629

http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(08)00268-8/abstract

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2805%2976016-5/fulltext?refuid=S0002-9378%252808%252900268-8&refissn=0002-9378

http://oregonstate.edu/cla/anthropology/reproductive_lab/sites/default/files/MacDorman_2006.pdf

[Alice]

 

I want education, but I also want legislation. I want consequences for medical personnel who force unnecessary interventions or who threaten the mother with the removal of her child if she does not submit.

 

 

I find this idea troubling. Unnecessary by whose decision? Many medical interventions only can be truly deemed unnecessary or necessary after the fact.

 

Let me give you a scenario that comes up in my office at least once a winter. A newborn infant comes in, let’s say 2 weeks old. The baby has congestion, a slight cough and tests positive for RSV (we have the test in our office). It’s day 3 of illness. The infant is breathing fast (50 times a minute, instead of the average of 30-40 at that age) but doesn’t have an oxygen requirement and is feeding ok. Not great, but adequate, having ok wet diapers. However, you as the pediatrician know that RSV typically gets worse around day 4 before it gets better. You also know that in very young infants RSV can cause apnea, potentially life-threatening. Most of the time it doesn’t, but it can.

 

Do you admit the baby for observation? Send them home?

 

Let’s say you admit. The baby does well, never needs oxygen and feeds fine on it’s own. You discharge them after 24-36 hours in the hospital. Harm done? Well, parents probably lost work time, were stressed (if they had other kids at home even more so). Breastfeeding may have been interrupted in a hospital setting, certainly no one slept well in the hospital. Certainly a cost to insurance, and depending on their insurance potentially a large cost to them financially. Unnecessary? It certainly seems like it. Perhaps there should be consequences. A fine? Some kind of professional censure? Prison time?

 

Let’s say you don’t admit. The parents go home and put the baby to bed. Later that evening they go in to check on the baby and discover that the baby is cyanotic, having had an apneic episode which led to bradycardia. They call 911 and perform CPR. The baby is rushed to the hospital, taken to the ICU, ventilated. He ultimately recovers after a 4 week hospital stay including 2 weeks in the ICU on a ventilator. Harm done? Certainly much more stressful to the parents and potentially life threatening. Long term complications from hypoxia are likely (learning disorders, CP, hearing loss). Much bigger financial cost to everyone involved. Consequences? The parents would likely be able to find a lawyer to sue you for malpractice.

 

****

The reality is that it’s virtually impossible to tell with a 2 week old which way he is going to go. The second is much much less likely but also much much less desirable. You might argue that the you could base “unecessary†on standard practices but in a lot of cases, especially with neonates there is a certain amount of gut reaction/art to medicine. There are algorithms but we all base our decisions on a lot of other factors. In the above scenario I might take into account the parents (are they first time parents, do they have experience with sick kids, do they seem exhausted and to need a break).

 

You could argue that it has to be about intent? Did I know that it was unnecessary at the time or did I have a reasonable suspicion that the interventions might be necessary? Ok...well what if in the above scenario I changed it to say that you are seeing the baby at 9 am. I could have seen the baby back in the afternoon to follow up and see how they are doing instead of admitting them for observation. You find out later that that day I happened to be leaving for vacation at 3 pm and was in a hurry to get out of the office....Does that change things? Did I admit the baby only so I could get out of the office and out of town? How can you prove that? Maybe it’s just a coincidence that I’m going on vacation.

 

Ok...well maybe it’s “unnecessary†if I financially gain from it. (And I do think this is a good reason doctors shouldn’t profit from any kind of lab or radiological procedures.) Well, if my practice rounds on hospital patients I’m indirectly profiting from the admission as we’ll get paid for seeing the baby in the hospital. Is that why I admitted them?

 

You might also argue that my scenario is meaningless because you are talking about labor and delivery. Well, how are you going to say that one particular area of medicine can have consequences for “unnecessary†interventions but not extend that to other areas of medicine?

 

I always wade into these kind of threads with some trepidation, but I mostly wanted to just respond to the above idea. However, I have one other thought...

 

-In general I find this board to be a pretty anti-mainstream medicine place. That’s fine and for many people they have good reasons for that opinion. However, it’s never helpful to say things like “I believe that Obs and maternity nurses prey on mothers and babies" or to depict maternity nurses and neonatologists as wanting to “snatch babies†away. I may not be quoting exactly because I forgot to use multi-quote but I think I’m pretty close. I’ll give you that some OBs are power hunger, paternalistic, creatures who only want money and to fit in as many C-sections as possible before their next golf game. I’ll give you that some nurses are lazy and would rather sit and chat on break than get up to bring a baby to it’s mom. I’ll even give you that some pediatricians are arrogant jerks who think all moms are idiots. I’m aware that some of you have unfortunately only encountered these kinds of medical professionals. However, you also need to admit that some doctors love medicine and carrying for patients and try their hardest to work with their patients. Some nurses (I’d say many) work really really hard and do everything they can to help new moms in this exciting, scary and stressful time of life. Some of those nurses (and doctors and doctors families) are on these boards. It’s good to realize that when we make sweeping generalizations about any profession.

[TranquilMind]

I just HAVE to vent, gripe, moan, complain, etc. I am SO mad my blood is boiling.

 

My niece (nephew's wife) went in yesterday for her ob appt. in labor (3rd baby). She wasn't due for a week and a half, but was in pretty consistent labor and 2 cm at her appt. At 12:30 p.m., they sent her over to the hospital, where, when checked again, she had already dilated another cm. So what do the geniuses do? They go ahead and break her water and start pit. (I'm guessing the doc wanted to be sure she was delivered by the time she got off).

 

She had the baby at 6 p.m. After he was cleaned up she was able to nurse him, but they stopped her and took him because he was making "grunting" noises. She was told that because he delivered so fast, he might have fluid in his lungs and they wanted to monitor him in the nursery.

 

In the nursery, they ran bloodwork, monitored his breathing, etc. She was told at 9 that they couldn't bring him back until the blood results came in. At 10, she was told his oxygen sats were perfect, and his bloodwork was perfect, but he was still making grunting noises so they were keeping him in the nursery, and were going to put an ng and tube feed him formula. When she asked about going in there to nurse him, she was told there wasn't room. Now when we went to see him, he was in a HUGE nursery with ONE other baby - 3 nurses were sitting at a table on their iPhones. There was room in that da** nursery for her to go sit in a rocker and nurse her son.

 

Thank GOD my niece was adamant about the formula, and the baby was sleepy enough that he didn't wake until the "observation" time was up, so they finally brought him to her at MIDNIGHT, and she was able to nurse him and he has been fine ever since.

 

I, however, am NOT fine. They augmented her labor when she was laboring fine on her own because they wanted to hurry things along. The baby is then born TOO fast (a situation THEY created), and has to be taken because he has issues from being born too fast (ridiculous anyway - he had ZERO issues), and then, to top it off, they are going to give him formula because they are worried about him aspirating while nursing even though he nursed FINE after birth.

 

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???? I am about to bust with the sheer ignorance shown here. This is at the "best" maternity hospital in town. AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

 

 

Oh, I hear you.

 

I would never have been able to tolerate a hospital birth. My midwife actually became a midwife because of a similar experience.

 

Idiots.

[TranquilMind]

 

Welcome to my world. The lowest c-section rate in my area is 35%. The two biggest hospitals are over 45%. (and one charges 10,000 more for the surgery, oddly).

 

 

Yikes.

 

This is called CYA medicine.