Food for Thought: Giving girls "hooks" and who got into the top colleges

[LibraryLover]

double post

Edited May 31, 2012 by LibraryLover

[J-rap]

It never even occurred to me to try to build a "hook" into my children's upbringing, and we definitely focused on living life rather than preparing for an Ivy League college for most of our children's growing up years.

 

However, once our children got to be teens, my husband began taking whatever interests they had and really pushing them with it (in a good, challenging way). He figured if they were decent at it and loved it, then why not encourage them to get even better? Why settle for mediocre? This is something that would never have occurred to me! I've always been fine with being mediocre!

 

I've been amazed at how his encouraging them to push the limit has taken them to a different level that really does give them more opportunities. It kind of has a snowball effect. They are bright children but not brilliant, good SAT scores though far from perfect. The ones who are in college have gotten good scholarships and notice, and the ones who have chosen not to go to college are still in good standing.

 

It makes me wish I had done it differently for myself afterall. Now that I am older and my children are more independent, I wish I had something that I really excelled in.

 

So, in sum, I don't agree with shaping one's whole childhood just to have a hook for college, but I think you can encourage your children to keep getting better when they DO have an interest, and it can help them not just in college but in life in general. And it doesn't have to be necessarily to keep getting better; it could be to simply keep learning and doing more about an interest -- like volunteering to teach music lessons, as someone else mentioned.

[ktgrok]

I've always thought kids should have a "hook". All kids. By the time they are middle school age.

 

Kids who do not have something that they focus on tend to get in more trouble. They don't have reason to set goals. They don't see a direction. Mastering a sonata, a flip on a balance beam, building a robot may or may not lead to future careers, but the focus and goal setting skills the child develops as they master these things will be lifelong skills they will always use.

 

Additionally, without the anchor kids drift. Drifting can lead to trouble. I work with kids in an "alternative" setting. I see it all the time. Even kids from "good homes". Even kids whose parents pay attention.

 

The problem is that some interests don't lend themselves to college admissions. I love to read. I LOVE LOVE LOVE to read. Reading is my thing. It is my passion, my stress relief, my companion. I read fiction, nonfiction,the back of cereal boxes, and catalogs. It gave me something to do, kept me out of trouble, and led to a part time job at the library. But it certainly isn't a "hook". And you know what? I don't care.

 

I still read. I will read as an old lady in a rocking chair. I've passed on my love of books to my children. I decorate my house with them, and pepper my conversations with things I've read about. So who the heck cares that it wasn't "cool enough' or unusual enough to get me into college? My grades got me into a state school just fine, as an early admission student, and that was plenty good enough.

 

My son skateboards, but isn't a prodigy. He fishes, but again, not something that will get him into college. But so what? When he is 80 he can take his great grandkids fishing. By then he will have a bunch of other things he likes too. Like me. I've learned to knit, then dropped it. Learned to make soap, then dropped it. Canned some, baked a lot. All have enriched my life, without them being a hook.

[bettyandbob]

I've never thought a "hook" was important to college admissions. I guess having one makes brainstorming for essay topics easier. I think having a hook is good for developing overall focus and goal setting. That's much broader than worrying about Ivy League schools we cannot afford.

[Jugglin'5]

It's been several weeks since I read the article, but if I recall correctly, more girls apply than boys, so the girls need more to make themselves stand out. That doesn't mean boys don't need any hook to apply to highly selective schools, just that girls need one even more. FWIW, while I haven't looked at the latest statistics, these are schools where most of the applicants will have SATs in the top few percentiles.

 

I think the admissions ratio for the Ivies is more equal, so perhaps girls do need something extra.

[yslek]

I recently read this, which offers much hope (for me as a mom of several "un-hooked" kids ;)):

 

http://www.amazon.com/How-High-School-Superstar-Revolutionary/dp/0767932587/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1338331402&sr=8-4

 

The author makes a case for underscheduling and being open to opportunities, with several examples of kids who did just this and got into top-tier schools. Many of them didn't find their "hook" until they were over halfway through High School. I plan on having B read this soon (or reading it to him, since he's not terribly worried about the future :glare:.)

[wapiti]

So you have a hook. You get into Ye. Your parent are mid to

Upper class. You get no aid. There are no merits s gloats ups at these schools. They cost 55k a year. Can you say no, or do you leave Penn or Dartmouth oweing over 100k for an undergrad degree. We can read about you in NYTs.

 

Some top schools do have merit scholarships available for particular courses of study, etc. (e.g. Harvard presidential scholars). That may take some hunting and presumably yet more competition.

 

Sure, one can say no, find something more affordable and then aim for a top grad school. There's more than one path to seek a degree from a top school, though all routes have their advantages and disadvantages.

[LibraryLover]

I've never thought a "hook" was important to college admissions. I guess having one makes brainstorming for essay topics easier. I think having a hook is good for developing overall focus and goal setting. That's much broader than worrying about Ivy League schools we cannot afford.[/QUOTE]

 

There ya go. The year before your (general your) kid applied, they needed your kid's French Horn. This year they have enough French horns, but are looking for hockey goalies. Oops.

Edited May 29, 2012 by LibraryLover

[wapiti]

The author makes a case for underscheduling and being open to opportunities, with several examples of kids who did just this and got into top-tier schools. Many of them didn't find their "hook" until they were over halfway through High School.

 

This is one of Rusczyk's points (though his lecture is discussing real-world grown-up success, not college admissions). Check out the lecture I linked above, around pp. 14-16.

[ktgrok]

another thought....My favorite people in life are generalists. Generalists are useful! My husband is a network engineer, specializing in security issues, but he can also redo our plumbing, do electrical work, fix my car, changes his own oil, do drywall, draw cartoons very well, and change a diaper. Specialists have to hire people to do most of those things, while they spend their time specializing. Not the kind of person I hang out with, or want to. Give me a jack of all trades any day! That's what I want for my kid's spouses, and for them.

[LibraryLover]

Some top schools do have merit scholarships available for particular courses of study, etc. (e.g. Harvard presidential scholars). That may take some hunting and presumably yet more competition.

 

Sure, one can say no, find something more affordable and then aim for a top grad school. There's more than one path to seek a degree from a top school, though all routes have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

Fwiw, I did clean up auto correct. ;) i think trying to guess a hook is not fair to a child. I think encouraging a passion is very important. But a child is not a product.

[bettyandbob]

There ya go. Cannot afford. The year before your kid applied, they needed your kid's French Horn. This year they have a French horn, but are looking for hockey goalies. Oops.

 

 

But my point is that it's not about guessing what one school wants.If you do that you will likely miss the mark. To me the hook is about the kid. His or her interest. His or her focus. His or her goal setting. And the decision why she went the direction she went in picking the activity.

 

I think when you try to choose activities based on college admissions you are likely to find nothing you child enjoys and by the time your child applies it's no longer the "thing". 10 years ago everyone was getting their girls into lacrosse. West Coast colleges were heavily recruiting female lacrosse players where I live. Now, not so much. So, what if I had forced (ha like I could have done that) my dd to keep playing lacrosse.

 

The other thing a "hook" can give a kid is a place to relax or take a break from the stresses of academics or other things in their life. I know a young woman who chose a university because it had a good pre med program and offered ballet. She told me she knew pre med was intense and she knew ballet was where she relaxed. She just finished her first year of med school, so her decision to keep up ballet must have been a good one.

 

It's not just about getting into college. Having something extra that you do in depth can be part of making you a well rounded person.

[wapiti]

i think trying to guess a hook is not fair to a child. I think encouraging a passion is very important. But a child is not a product.

 

This is an important point - perhaps a hook cannot be manufactured (even if one wanted to) without being a tiger mom. That leaves the kids developing the passion themselves as the only option that makes sense. This may be a topic for a whole other thread, but what motivates passion development? I was not sufficiently motivated for that when I was in high school. Nor did I have a clue about the world, beyond wanting to go to college. Maybe having mentors and learning what lays beyond school? Just thinking out loud... (Rusczyk has some ideas, but the self-motivation is something that may be lacking around here)

[ocelotmom]

Considering that these "hooks" would have to be embarked upon well before puberty, isn't it highly likely that their "college/career goals" will change a lot as they pursue their "hook"? Even college students frequently change their majors to an entirely different field.

 

That is exactly where the whole "hook" idea breaks down for me - it prioritizes childhood interests over the evolving (and often, though not always, more relevant) interests of a teen.

 

I mean, I'm all in favor of pushing kids to stick with something through the hard times, but if my teenager recognizes that they neither really enjoy nor have any particular future in X that they chose when they were 8, and want to do Y instead, I'm not going to stop them because I think that it's going to ruin their chances of getting into Harvard. I would think that a *true* passion pursued over a shorter period of time is likely to result in a more authentic hook than being Tiger Mom'd into one particular thing.

 

However, once our children got to be teens, my husband began taking whatever interests they had and really pushing them with it (in a good, challenging way). He figured if they were decent at it and loved it, then why not encourage them to get even better? Why settle for mediocre? This is something that would never have occurred to me! I've always been fine with being mediocre!

 

I agree with this. If I had been encouraged to explore all the options and excel within my areas of interest, I expect I'd be in a better place now. Not that I'm in a bad place, but I could have accomplished more with a little more guidance.

Edited May 29, 2012 by ocelotmom

[Mommy22alyns]

I have one DD who has no real interests that could turn into "hooks," and it stresses me out greatly (from a college-application perspective and from a richness-of-life sort of perspective).

 

What do you do with a kid who has no hooks and who desires no hooks?

 

 

I've been thinking about this for some time now, not necessarily for college admissions, but just overall well-being. Rebecca has gymnastics. She's very good at it, she's been doing it since she was 3, she's passionate about it, everything. Sylvia? I know she's just 7 and I should NOT compare kids, but... Rebecca had her "hook" by then. She's 7! But she's only 7. She's done soccer, she's done gymnastics, she's done choir and she seems to have the same approach to everything. Eh, it's okay. When will we find her "thing"? :confused:

 

I don't know, I can't help, but I can relate.

[FaithManor]

Oh, and if you have an animal oriented boy, on a side note, bring him to MSU to Vet School. I'm serious! State has been inundated over these past 10 years with females in vet school and almost NO males. The problem with this that Michigan is a heavy agricultural/fiber/dairy state and large animal vets are in demand, yet most women want to practice small animal and not wrestle cows and such. Occasionally one will specialize in horses, and frankly, women make excellent horse vets...I've always figured it was because only a woman could understand a snarky mare, a gelding, and a stallion. I've seen mares just ride herd on male vets meanwhile the female vets seem to make the most ornery cuss of an old horse do exactly what she wants! :D:lol:

 

So, State is seriously looking for boys. I personally know of women who have been wait listed three or four years for a spot in vet school. Women with 4.0 undergrad science degrees and stellar references. They've been passed over for males with 2.5's and not so great references, but perfectly happy to have their arm up a cow's behind! Ask any of our local vets and they'll tell you males can practically write their ticket to vet school here.

 

The biggest large animal practice near here (10 vets in partnership together) are run ragged and really need two more large animal vets because they travel so far....they also need ones that will specialize in natural care and nutrition because we have some rather large organic dairy operations near here.

 

Bring your boys...make them veterinarians! :001_smile:

 

Faith

[Hockey Mom]

I agree with this to some extent. My DD didn't have a "hook", but she was second in her (very small) class, and was automatically awarded a full-ride at the local university. Not ivy league, but it will still give her a degree when it's all said and done.

 

WRT "hooks" in general, I have two thoughts; one, that it is essential to hook your kids into something so they don't find trouble, and two, sometimes hooks aren't appreciated by the child at first. My boys play ice hockey. They love it NOW. When they were 3 and 4 years old learning how to ice skate though, they hated it. We stuck with it. They weren't given options (like my DD - we tried everything trying to find her hook - never happened). As a result, they now have a passion for it.

[Jen in PA]

DD would like to spend her teen years as either a vampire slayer or the Doctor's companion, so I don't think I'll have much influence if I suggest an instrument or horseback riding.:D

[LibraryLover]

LOL...(or should that be cry out loud)

 

 

I did drop that e. I can't type on my phone.

[LibraryLover]

Hey I think being a vampire slayer would at least be unique. ;)

 

 

:)

 

fwiw, the young women I have known who have recently been accepted to Yale, Harvard, MIT, Brown, have all been science (mostly Chemistry) majors. In the words of a friend in admissions, "I don't have space for that many Psych majors."

 

 

Georgraphy matters as well. They don't want kids from nearby (the elite boarding schools don't have quite as much clout as they used to) as much as they want diversity. I always joke about moving to Alaska, Kansas, or Georgia if you want to go to a New England Ivy.

Edited May 31, 2012 by LibraryLover

[regentrude]

WRT "hooks" in general, I have two thoughts; one, that it is essential to hook your kids into something so they don't find trouble, and two, sometimes hooks aren't appreciated by the child at first. My boys play ice hockey. They love it NOW. When they were 3 and 4 years old learning how to ice skate though, they hated it. We stuck with it. They weren't given options (like my DD - we tried everything trying to find her hook - never happened). As a result, they now have a passion for it.

 

This does not necessarily work.

My parents made me take violin lessons from age 5 to age 11. I was not good at it, did not like it, and eventually quit after six miserable years (miserable for both me and my parents).

Then they picked a sport for me. I was not good at it, liked it so-so, was pushed very hard, had to quit because of health issues.

Both times: epic fail.

OTOH, I am passionate about rock climbing which I did not pick up until age 18.

[Bluegoat]

another thought....My favorite people in life are generalists. Generalists are useful! My husband is a network engineer, specializing in security issues, but he can also redo our plumbing, do electrical work, fix my car, changes his own oil, do drywall, draw cartoons very well, and change a diaper. Specialists have to hire people to do most of those things, while they spend their time specializing. Not the kind of person I hang out with, or want to. Give me a jack of all trades any day! That's what I want for my kid's spouses, and for them.

 

I think too the idea that intense specialization produces the best problem solvers is pretty debatable. People who find creative solutions or envision new things or offer unique insights often do so by bringing together many seemingly disparate threads, by seeing related patterns in diverse areas of experience.

[Bluegoat]

DD would like to spend her teen years as either a vampire slayer or the Doctor's companion, so I don't think I'll have much influence if I suggest an instrument or horseback riding.:D

 

I guess some sort of RPG club may not be what colleges are looking for?

 

This is the other thing about this idea that bothers me - there are lots of interests that just aren't appreciated. I spent a lot of my teen years playing RPGs and doing little architectural drawings in my room. Now, for someone who looked into what I was doing closely, those things probably would show a person with an intense interest in systems and they wouldn't be surprised that I went in that direction in university.

 

But no one thinks a teen who scribbles for hours on scrap paper and plays RPGs is doing anything worthwhile.

[LMA]

I posted this years ago and I'll post it now:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/education/01girls.html?pagewanted=all

[elizabeth]

This is interesting. So far I can honestly say I would much prefer the company of the people who have responded to this question than those who sit on admissions committees. Sadly I spent a couple of days last week with two of my cousins due to a death in the family. FWIW one has a PhD from Stanford and the other is a lifer in the Commerce Dept and a graduate of a fine Ivy League university. All they both wanted to know was...what my daughter was going to do when the transcripts were before an admissions committee member and they needed something to prove the "mommy grades." They both have sat on admissions committees at the various and sundry universities they have attended. I said I had no idea since we were not actively seeking Ivy League or Seven Sisters and would prefer they stop sending us unsolicited mail. It is a waste of trees. " Stanford "piped up that the really competitive schools do not care about standardized tests but want something more "x "factor. My hubs quipped back that although we could never afford to send her we had a box of mail right after the PSAT scores were released from Wellesley, Barnard, Smith and Brown, none of these are even remotely what we can afford. Frankly, our young lady is more of an Oberlin kind of girl. Anyone who tells you test scores do not matter is full of ...beans. I have a box of lovely catalogues to prove it. :lol: Frankly, the "hook" is a load of bull . They do not actually care if you manicure hobbled pigs feet , ride dressage style or sing at church. The bottom line that gets you in the door and not in the circular file is testing. It is reliable for what it seeks to demonstrate, that you have the intellectual and emotional capacity to complete a degree. That is, in my opinion, the value of college, to stick through a hellish chem course, to learn self governance and self denial. If you can do those things you might end up being worth a darn to society and your family. That is what counts. Yes, I know, my cousins are dolts. :lol: At a funeral they were still doing what they do best, count beans, compare fabulousity levels and speak authoritatively on matters they might best leave alone. A "hook' is code for if your test scores are not near perfect do not waste our time and your money. JMHO as mom to one really nice girl who loves to read, works her fingers to the bone studying and practicing guitar and who we hope will earn a full ride to a nice Jesuit school. And that is no hook. She is a truly kind, dedicated and bright young lady.

[LNC]

I"m not sure a "hook" means dedication to an extracurricular activity. I think it means dedication and extreme excellence in an extracurricular activity. Big difference.

 

My daughter doesn't have amazing talent, though she has given her best to several pursuits. But, she is an amazing heroic servant and I think that is her "gift". Whether universities consider it a "hook" - I could really care less anymore. I think her scores will get her in somewhere good enough...

Edited May 30, 2012 by LNC

[Guest submarines]

This does not necessarily work.

My parents made me take violin lessons from age 5 to age 11. I was not good at it, did not like it, and eventually quit after six miserable years (miserable for both me and my parents).

Then they picked a sport for me. I was not good at it, liked it so-so, was pushed very hard, had to quit because of health issues.

Both times: epic fail.

OTOH, I am passionate about rock climbing which I did not pick up until age 18.

 

:iagree:I had a sport picked for me as well. I was actually very good at it, from the ages of 7 to 15. However, I was miserable all these years, and quit at the very first opportunity.

 

A true hook comes from within. True passion shines through. A manufactured hook is equally obvious, and demonstrates parental drive and nothing else, even if a child might temporarily excell.

[FairProspects]

But my point is that it's not about guessing what one school wants.If you do that you will likely miss the mark. To me the hook is about the kid. His or her interest. His or her focus. His or her goal setting. And the decision why she went the direction she went in picking the activity.

 

The other thing a "hook" can give a kid is a place to relax or take a break from the stresses of academics or other things in their life. I know a young woman who chose a university because it had a good pre med program and offered ballet. She told me she knew pre med was intense and she knew ballet was where she relaxed. She just finished her first year of med school, so her decision to keep up ballet must have been a good one.

 

It's not just about getting into college. Having something extra that you do in depth can be part of making you a well rounded person.

 

:iagree:It is also about knowing who you are as a person and at what you excel. This is the precursor to "launching" as my parents call it into the real world in a field in which you are a specialist. Everyone needs to have a certain proficiency as a generalist, and then you specialize.

 

My hooks won me college scholarships and roles as a freshman in a top 10 university for my art. Even though I chose not to pursue this field as a career, it certainly enriched my life. My dh has often stated that he wishes he would have had more hooks as a teen - he floundered as a young adult in knowing his passion and how to translate that into adult life. He simply had no idea the areas in which he excelled because his parents focused more on the generalization of friends, sports, average academics, etc.

 

My friends with hooks have all had great successes in both college and life, and none that I can think of regret the time spent in specialized activities as a teen.

[PhotoGal]

Wow, wasn't it hard enough to get into college when we were teens? Now you have to be superhuman at something? :glare: Remember when two AP classes was all your highschool offered? :lol:

 

My kids are still young, but when they are teens I plan to encourage them to choose something original to pursue. Not just be in an activity, but start something new. Hopefully I can get them to the point where they will be up for that.

 

That is what I think of when the PP said her daughter tutored younger kids in music. If it was her idea and she made it happen, it is more of a learning experience than signing up for a program run by adults, kwim? (I don't know what the PP experience was, I'm just imagining). So if I can set up the expectation that they plan a project like that, I think it would be valuable for life and for having something to write about on their college essays.

[Kalmia]

The problem is that some interests don't lend themselves to college admissions. I love to read. I LOVE LOVE LOVE to read. Reading is my thing. It is my passion, my stress relief, my companion. I read fiction, nonfiction,the back of cereal boxes, and catalogs. It gave me something to do, kept me out of trouble, and led to a part time job at the library. But it certainly isn't a "hook". And you know what? I don't care.

 

I still read. I will read as an old lady in a rocking chair. I've passed on my love of books to my children. I decorate my house with them, and pepper my conversations with things I've read about. So who the heck cares that it wasn't "cool enough' or unusual enough to get me into college? My grades got me into a state school just fine, as an early admission student, and that was plenty good enough.

 

My son skateboards, but isn't a prodigy. He fishes, but again, not something that will get him into college. But so what? When he is 80 he can take his great grandkids fishing. By then he will have a bunch of other things he likes too. Like me. I've learned to knit, then dropped it. Learned to make soap, then dropped it. Canned some, baked a lot. All have enriched my life, without them being a hook.

 

First of all shouldn't a love of reading be the #1 hook into college! I love this post because ktgrok articulates so well what it is to live a life, not live to get into college.

[kalanamak]

I'm confused. Boys don't need hooks? Why are these articles about girls (I admit I just skimmed through).

 

I did chem, physics, and bio in a post-bac pre-med program at Columbia. I found it so unpleasant a place, I didn't apply to one Ivy for med school. Too many pressured kids, cheating, and general scratch-each-others-eyes-out. E.g. sometimes a student who sat next to me asked me how answer study problem 43, etc. I would explain it. To me, if you can explain something, it really seats your knowledge of it. Seems commonsensical to me. Once I asked her a question and she replied, without a blush, that telling me would be "uncompetitive" for her. Oh, really.

[elizabeth]

I'm confused. Boys don't need hooks? Why are these articles about girls (I admit I just skimmed through).

 

I did chem, physics, and bio in a post-bac pre-med program at Columbia. I found it so unpleasant a place, I didn't apply to one Ivy for med school. Too many pressured kids, cheating, and general scratch-each-others-eyes-out. E.g. sometimes a student who sat next to me asked me how answer study problem 43, etc. I would explain it. To me, if you can explain something, it really seats your knowledge of it. Seems commonsensical to me. Once I asked her a question and she replied, without a blush, that telling me would be "uncompetitive" for her. Oh, really.

 

Yes indeed. I saw this repeatedly in law school. It is sad that people still perceive the world as a pie in which there are limited slices and if you win, I lose. Ugly stuff. Columbia is nigh impossible to get into if you are home educated as they do not take AP exam scores but require 4 SAT subject tests. No can do as they do not even offer the SAT here we are driving an hour and 45 minutes to take it in a nearby city. What about the young people who do not have a ride to the exam?? Or a vehicle?? I can hardly wait for this to be done with. It has been eye opening. :lol:

[Rivka]

I was an admissions interviewer for my college for a year. Reed didn't have particular niches they were trying to fill - "oh, we need more underwater basketweavers, so find a kid who does that." They were looking for kids who had an inner fire that was separate from just "I want to be a top achiever." Kids who had their own reasons to study and learn. Kids who lit up about something, even (or maybe especially) if it was obscure and not an obvious path to success.

 

I think it trivializes that thing, to call it a "hook." A hook is a way that your child represents or characterizes herself in her college applications. It shouldn't be a way that she structures her life.

 

On the flip side, having a hook doesn't automatically mean that one's childhood is devoid of fun and freedom. I don't think anyone's going to say, "No, sorry, you can't take that art class or sleep over at your friend's house because you have to put ALL your focus on soccer!" I do think there's something to be said for holding a kid's feet to the fire a little bit if their hook is something they truly enjoy doing.

 

But that is what the NYT writer said. Children shouldn't be allowed to spend their (supposedly) free time doing things they like or exploring their current interests, whatever they may be. They should focus on developing one area to the highest level of excellence. She really is arguing against the art class.

 

This is an important point - perhaps a hook cannot be manufactured (even if one wanted to) without being a tiger mom. That leaves the kids developing the passion themselves as the only option that makes sense. This may be a topic for a whole other thread, but what motivates passion development?

 

I think that, as a family, you need to lead an interesting life. You need to read widely, talk ideas, go places (not expensive foreign travel, necessarily, but not just the supermarket), meet interesting people, get involved in things. Kids need to be exposed to people who have passions and issues that might catch hold of their soul.

 

I think that if you want your child to have the chance to develop that kind of passion, you need to present the world of learning and experience as a goal in itself, and not as a route to achievement and success. Not "let's check out rocketry because it would be such an unusual activity on your Mt. Holyoke application," but "WOW rockets are SO COOL!" (And if they're not cool to your kid, fine. Something else will be.)

 

My kids are very young, so right now I think about leaving doors open for them. I make sure my daughter has access to cool building toys (she loves Tinker Toys) and toys like Snap Circuits, because I know that a lot of the things that give boys an advantage in math, science, and engineering aren't part of the curriculum - they're free time pursuits.

 

I don't shoot down her interests. Right now, a big thing for her is graphic novels. I don't particularly like them, but I feed that interest anyway. When she comes up with impractical ideas (like a way of producing drinking water by cooling air), I might ask "I wonder..." questions, but I don't flatly tell her it won't work.

 

I introduce my kids to lively and interesting people. A couple of weeks ago they went to a tea party with a bunch of science fiction authors and editors. That room was overflowing with passions. One guy was talking about the rare and dangerous chemicals he'd picked up at an estate sale and another person was talking with great intensity about perfecting her marmalade recipe. The specific interests aren't as important as the fact that they had them, and were glowing about them.

 

A true hook comes from within. True passion shines through. A manufactured hook is equally obvious, and demonstrates parental drive and nothing else, even if a child might temporarily excell.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

Wow, wasn't it hard enough to get into college when we were teens? Now you have to be superhuman at something? :glare: Remember when two AP classes was all your highschool offered? :lol:

 

 

I feel as if there's a disconnect here on the WTM forums. On the one hand, there seems to be near-universal agreement that public schools are handing out a shoddy education, shallow and inferior, and that classical homeschoolers are a tiny island of intellectual righteousness in a country that is going down the tubes, academically. On the other hand, there seems to be absolute belief that there is an enormous cadre of hyperintelligent, hypereducated, hypertalented teenagers out there who are our children's college admissions competition - that when your child sends her application in to Brown or Williams or Berkeley (no, probably most WTMers don't want their kids going to Berkeley) she'll be up against ten Westinghouse competition winners, 50 professional-quality musicians, and 200 kids with perfect SATs and 9 APs, all competing for each admissions slot.

 

I didn't have any trouble getting into an excellent college. I don't think my kids will either, even if we don't spend every minute of the next ten years massaging their resumes. Maybe that makes me naive, or hubristic.

[mathnmusic]

I've always thought kids should have a "hook". All kids. By the time they are middle school age.

 

Kids who do not have something that they focus on tend to get in more trouble. They don't have reason to set goals. They don't see a direction. Mastering a sonata, a flip on a balance beam, building a robot may or may not lead to future careers, but the focus and goal setting skills the child develops as they master these things will be lifelong skills they will always use.

 

Additionally, without the anchor kids drift. Drifting can lead to trouble. I work with kids in an "alternative" setting. I see it all the time. Even kids from "good homes". Even kids whose parents pay attention.

 

:iagree: Very well put. Thanks for expressing this so well.

[Just Kate]

I've always hoped that my kids would have a "hook", although I never used that word nor did I consider the idea for the purpose of getting into a good college. When I was a child, I participated in a few activities: I was a cheerleader when I was in elementary school, but when I got to middle school I didn't make the team because I wasn't a very good tumbler (the cheerleaders that made the team took tumbling class while my parents never encouraged me to do so). Not that my life was ruined because I didn't make the cheerleading team (actually, I'm quite sure it wasn't at all!), but it is just one example in how I wasn't really encouraged to be "great" at something that I was interested in. I also played the violin for a bit when I was younger because I asked to take lessons. The minute I started complaining and saying that I wanted to stop, my parents just let me quit.

 

I was always a good student but was never encouraged to find my passion. Although I was seen as one of the "good girls" in my high school, I will say that I got into some mischief simply because I had nothing to occupy my time after school (other than homework). While other kids were practicing their sport or instrument, I was at home with only time on my hands. I don't think this was good for me.

 

I have always been one of those people who is good at lots of things, but I don't really excel at anything. This affected me in college and in my adult life. Even though I don't plan to force my children into a particular area so that they find their "hook", I will certainly encourage them to find their passion and to work hard to excel at it.

[PhotoGal]

(no, probably most WTMers don't want their kids going to Berkeley)

 

I'd love for my kids to go to Berkeley! Although it isn't looking as wonderful now as the tuition keeps going up and up as California cuts funding.

 

I completely agree with having kids meet people who are passionate about something - even if the something isn't necessarily what your kids might be into. Last year when ds was in school, I arranged for the local snake guy to come visit his class. It wasn't that I wanted ds to be interested in snakes, but it was great to see meet this guy who was really passionate about snakes, knew all about them and was so happy to talk about them - really enjoying his passion and made a career out of it. This year we take a lot of field trips, so they are meeting more people out in the world that have specific interests/passions.

[besroma]

:lurk5:

[kitten18]

I think those articles are written to give already neurotic NYC parents an extra push towards an aneurysm.

:lol:

 

I'm still going for General, Well-Rounded Kids over here. If they happen to acquire a hook (or take on extra work in a subject area - I'm not keen on specializing academics, either!), that's great. But I'm raising people, not applicants.

 

:iagree:

[Parker Martin]

I'm raising men, not products.

 

I was raised to care about achievement for the sake of putting it on the app. I collected lots and lots of "achievements." What a bunch of nonsense. And what a way to socialize people into worshipping What Other People Think. I won't be repeating that. It's one of the reasons we homeschool because I feel like school is set up to engender that type of thinking.

 

My hope is that my sons graduate from our homeschool having completed a rigorous course of study, having developed the judicious temperments of true scholars, and, most importantly, having become good men. I don't know what hobbies they'll be into, we'll see, but I'm not going to seek to add hobbies like one adds bullet points of features on a product's packaging.

[melissel]

Ha! An unrelated but apropos NYT blog article from this afternoon:

 

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/the-camp-counselor-vs-the-intern/#more-38065

[Crimson Wife]

I feel as if there's a disconnect here on the WTM forums. On the one hand, there seems to be near-universal agreement that public schools are handing out a shoddy education, shallow and inferior, and that classical homeschoolers are a tiny island of intellectual righteousness in a country that is going down the tubes, academically. On the other hand, there seems to be absolute belief that there is an enormous cadre of hyperintelligent, hypereducated, hypertalented teenagers out there who are our children's college admissions competition - that when your child sends her application in to Brown or Williams or Berkeley (no, probably most WTMers don't want their kids going to Berkeley) she'll be up against ten Westinghouse competition winners, 50 professional-quality musicians, and 200 kids with perfect SATs and 9 APs, all competing for each admissions slot.

 

Unfortunately, in my social circle, I have encountered a number of hyperintelligent, hypertalented kids who should've been slam-dunks at an Ivy caliber school but who got shut out because of the insane competition in recent years. The top schools are now rejecting 93-94 applicants out of every 100. Harvard could fill their freshman class more than three times over just with applicants who have perfect SAT scores.

 

There really *IS* that much competition these days, and I do worry about what it means for my kids.

[La Texican]

Does there? Or are they mainly looking at the fact that the student is able to dedicate themselves to something that matters to them, set goals, manage time and balance responsibilities, follow through, work their way through a progression of skills toward mastery, etc? (I don't know, I'm sincerely asking.)*

 

Are you an admissions counselor, or something similar? Is this inside info you're giving us? :D:lol:

 

:iagree: *just in the case of this article, because this mother/daughter lived in the south Bronx. *You can't generalize her strategy. *The "hook" was that the writer tailored her info parenting strategy into a salable article by repurposing a buzzword.*

 

*The South Bronx is part of New York's 16th Congressional District, one of the poorest Congressional districts in the United States. *

That's what the "give a girl a hook" story was about. *

That a mamma in that kind of SES neighborhood made sure her kid had riding lessons for years might have been the best guidance she could possibly give her. *Kudos.

 

I'm still going for General, Well-Rounded Kids over here. *If they happen to acquire a hook (or take on extra work in a subject area - I'm not keen on specializing academics, either!), that's great. *But I'm raising people, not applicants.

ITA !!!

[Laura Corin]

Just for comparison:

 

In Britain, lower-level universities might be interested in extra-curricular activities, but Oxford and Cambridge want specialists. They want to see someone who is completely fascinated by their chosen subject, so the only important extracurriculars will be related to their subject. This is why I am so pleased that Calvin did well in a national poetry competition: he wants to study English, or English and Classics.

 

The difference is that Oxford and Cambridge interview every potential student, so that enthusiasm can be delved for.

 

I remember reading an article in Harper's Magazine many years ago about how the search for the well-rounded student for entrance to the Ivies began when the universities began to see 'too many' highly academically qualified Jewish pupils. By putting stress on sports and leadership, the universities favoured pupils who had not grown up in the ghetto. I haven't seen any further research on this, so I don't know the truth of it.

 

Laura

[lewelma]

Another just for comparison,

 

In New Zealand if you have enough points, you get in. You get points by passing national exams or "internal assessments" (which are grades in class but these grades are moderated by a national agency so that all teachers must grade in the same way). Different grades earn a different number of points. The number of points is an objective criterion so there is no guessing if you will get in. So if you don't have enough points you just take more classes. Certain majors like engineering require additional points. So if you get a 5 on 4 AP exam equivalents, or a 3 on 8 exams, either would get you in. I'm not fully clear on what is required if you go the internal assessment route because that option is not available to homeschoolers (because our grading is not moderated). As homeschoolers you can use the correspondence school if you want internal assessment, but from what I have heard, the materials are boring.

 

When I first came and mentioned that I went to a top-10 school, and they just shrugged because there are only 7 universities here. :D

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited May 30, 2012 by lewelma

[Anne]

This is exactly what I think my youngest needs to excel in something she wants to do. I mentioned upthread about her arguing with me about getting up for dance on Saturdays. Now she's upset with me for letting her drop that class. In retrospect, my attitude should have been more like the author's, IMO.

 

But no, I don't advocate a Tiger Mom-like mentality at all. I can definitely see more of the other side of the discussion.

 

OTOH, your dd now knows that SHE needs to hold up her part of the load if she really wants to re-invest in dance. If she starts again, you will know that SHE owns it, not you - and that's a really good thing.

 

One of mine danced growing up. She knew that as long as she kept up her end, we would support her goals to the best of our ability. Now she's grown and she's not dancing right now.

 

But she learned more about SELF-discipline and determination from dancing than I ever could have taught her. And it stood her in good stead thus far, and I'm guessing that the lessons she learned will follow her the rest of her life.

 

Anne

[Susann]

We focused on dds being well rounded in all areas-academic, extracurricular, volunteering. These all showed on their admissions materials. However, we noticed that "hooks" developed for both of them which admin counselors commented on. Oldest dd was a rider/4-Her but that developed into working the state fair (August, no less) for several years to purchase her own horse. She was also a barn rat to pay for the horse. This lead her to train for cross country competitions-60 mile rides in varying terrains. She was also in the puppet ministry for our church doing outreach. Lots of interesting discussions during interviews! That said she'll be a junior in computer engineering this fall at Rose-Hulman. She's earned an amazing amount of scholarships to offset the $52,00.00/yr tuition. Same type of situation with youngest dd but with different interests. This was definately not on our radar-just hoped I wouldn't mess them up. My .02 cents-like so many things in life-focus on the type of person you want to raise not what it might get them.

[Trish]

I think the best hook these days is starting your own charity. At by what I gather from the local papers.

[Muttichen]

I don't have time to read all of the comments so it's possible someone said this, but homeschooling is a hook!

 

My oldest three were accepted to top-tier schools (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT), and none of them had any incredible extracurriculars -- they were just normal, well-rounded kids. They did have lots of 5's on APs (8-12), near perfect SAT and subject test scores, recommendations from CC professors, and national awards. But, as many people pointed out, LOTS of kids have all of that.

 

One thing that made my kids stand out from the crowd is that they were homeschooled. An admissions officer at Harvard told my daughter after she was a student there that they actually have a quota for homeschoolers. At that time (2007), they took 13 a year.

[amy g.]

This may have a little CC or maybe not Christian content, but Higher Power content, at least.

 

I have never been able to push my children, because it is my belief that each one of them was intentionally created to fulfill her own unique purpose on earth.

 

I have taught them to listen to the little voice within them, and to make life choices that align with what they hear.

 

When we were spending thousands on Mr. Clever's instruments, and lessons, both Dh and I told him that we were investing in something we believed would enrich his life, but he did not owe us to pursue music as a career to pay us back.

 

Sure enough, he decided to major in business instead of music, although he still takes lessons for pleasure.

 

When he took his first business classes at 15, he stood out in his class, because he had already worked with Miss Good to form her company. He had business cards, he designed her website, he could discuss his marketing plans, and what he wished he had done differently. His professor was very supportive, and became a repeat soap customer. He told Ds, "You are already doing what everyone in this class hopes they will be able to do someday."

 

If I had decided that music was going to be his "hook" then he would never have had the free time to help with the company.

 

If colleges are looking for unique activities, Miss Good has it made. there can NOT be a flood of young people passionate about sustainable farming practices. Can there?

 

Too bad she would be miserable in a competitive school environment. But she has done very well at listening to the little voice in her head. She lives a life that is true to her beliefs, and people respond very strongly to that in her.

 

So many doors have opened for her because people have caught her enthusiasm. Her company continues to grow in spite of the economy. She has almost finished her picture book about the farm that Ds is going to put on kindle, and is experimenting with. Making interactive well. She has schools and churches that want her to give a short talk about her company then sell books.

 

My point is that we, as parents did not force any of these activities. We just got our own preconceived ideas and expectations out of the way, and provided an environment where they can learn on their own.

 

I can not get too worked up about getting into a specific college. Whatever happens, I will believe that it is for the best, and what is meant to be for them.

 

So much also depends on "who you know" and they have adults at different schools who absolutely love and admire them, and would be willing to "put in a good word" along with their applications.

 

It is actually very freeing to play a supportive role in their lives, and let them make their own choices.

[wapiti]

I only just realized that the linked articles in the OP are not what I read a couple of months ago. I first read about "hooks" in this Forbes article. I could quibble with one of the quotes, but basically this article confirmed what I had been hearing elsewhere from a very reliable source in admissions.

 

There really *IS* that much competition these days, and I do worry about what it means for my kids.

:iagree: