Food for Thought: Giving girls "hooks" and who got into the top colleges

[LNC]

I don't have time to read all of the comments so it's possible someone said this, but homeschooling is a hook!

 

My oldest three were accepted to top-tier schools (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT), and none of them had any incredible extracurriculars -- they were just normal, well-rounded kids. They did have lots of 5's on APs (8-12), near perfect SAT and subject test scores, recommendations from CC professors, and national awards. But, as many people pointed out, LOTS of kids have all of that.

 

One thing that made my kids stand out from the crowd is that they were homeschooled. An admissions officer at Harvard told my daughter after she was a student there that they actually have a quota for homeschoolers. At that time (2007), they took 13 a year.

 

I'm always intrigued when you post. I would love to hear more about your homeschool!

[melissel]

I only just realized that the linked articles in the OP are not what I read a couple of months ago. I first read about "hooks" in this Forbes article. I could quibble with one of the quotes, but basically this article confirmed what I had been hearing elsewhere from a very reliable source in admissions.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Actually, that IS the same article as the one at the Slate link. Is that odd? Can Slate just republish articles like that?

[wapiti]

Actually, that IS the same article as the one at the Slate link. Is that odd? Can Slate just republish articles like that?

 

oops! No, I don't think it's odd, just confusing for those of us who are skimmers :tongue_smilie:

[LibraryLover]

I was an admissions interviewer for my college for a year. Reed didn't have particular niches they were trying to fill - "oh, we need more underwater basketweavers, so find a kid who does that." They were looking for kids who had an inner fire that was separate from just "I want to be a top achiever." Kids who had their own reasons to study and learn. Kids who lit up about something, even (or maybe especially) if it was obscure and not an obvious path to success.

 

I think it trivializes that thing, to call it a "hook." A hook is a way that your child represents or characterizes herself in her college applications. It shouldn't be a way that she structures her life.

 

 

I didn't have any trouble getting into an excellent college. I don't think my kids will either, even if we don't spend every minute of the next ten years massaging their resumes. Maybe that makes me naive, or hubristic.[/QUOTE]

 

 

Reed? Reed is special. Have you seen the book "Colleges That Change Lives"? (Reed is one of the schools profiled, and is clearly a place where one will be educated and supported. It's not a place where you'll be one of hundreds ignored in a large lecture hall. But you know that. :)) I love the book because it dicusses helping students find a good fit for their needs. It discourages the name school insanity and encourages fiding the right school, not just a name school. I completely agree with the bolded. There are 3000 colleges in the US. We owe it to our young students to help them find a place that works for them. Maybe that is a name, but maybe it's not. There is life beyond Harvard, for goodness sakes.

Edited May 31, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Jenny in Florida]

Kids who do not have something that they focus on tend to get in more trouble. They don't have reason to set goals. They don't see a direction. Mastering a sonata, a flip on a balance beam, building a robot may or may not lead to future careers, but the focus and goal setting skills the child develops as they master these things will be lifelong skills they will always use.

 

Additionally, without the anchor kids drift. Drifting can lead to trouble. I work with kids in an "alternative" setting. I see it all the time. Even kids from "good homes". Even kids whose parents pay attention.

 

Well, exactly. I've never worried a whole lot about guiding my kids to a "hook" in the name of college admissions. However, I noticed when I was in high school and drifting, myself, that the kids I knew who seemed to come through adolescence happiest and healthiest were the ones who had a passion for something. It was best, I thought, if that passion was in some way related to school, because the kids who had an investment in school had a reason to go and to do well.

 

This, right there, is the reason we support our kids in their interests, why we pay the bills and drive the commutes and go to performances. We want them to have a reason to get up in the morning, to care.

 

The fact that one or more of those things may turn into a "hook" is nice, but not the motivation for us.

[Jenny in Florida]

I read fiction, nonfiction,the back of cereal boxes, and catalogs. It gave me something to do, kept me out of trouble, and led to a part time job at the library. But it certainly isn't a "hook". And you know what? I don't care.

 

Reading might not be a hook, but the library job could be. Volunteering to tutor struggling third graders in reading could be a hook. Managing a book drive for the library or a local homeless center could be a hook.

 

For what it's worth, I'm a reader, too. And I think one of the problems with my adolescence was that reading (and writing, which I loved, too) is such a solitary pursuit. It doesn't get you out in the world, meeting people and doing things.

 

Both of my kids love to read. My son, in fact, is the only person I know in real life who reads more than I do. But they both do lots of other things, too.

[LibraryLover]

Well, exactly. I've never worried a whole lot about guiding my kids to a "hook" in the name of college admissions. However, I noticed when I was in high school and drifting, myself, that the kids I knew who seemed to come through adolescence happiest and healthiest were the ones who had a passion for something. It was best, I thought, if that passion was in some way related to school, because the kids who had an investment in school had a reason to go and to do well.

 

This, right there, is the reason we support our kids in their interests, why we pay the bills and drive the commutes and go to performances. We want them to have a reason to get up in the morning, to care.

 

The fact that one or more of those things may turn into a "hook" is nice, but not the motivation for us.

 

One of the best posts on this thread. Thank you.

[KungFuPanda]

Oh, and if you have an animal oriented boy, on a side note, bring him to MSU to Vet School. I'm serious! State has been inundated over these past 10 years with females in vet school and almost NO males. The problem with this that Michigan is a heavy agricultural/fiber/dairy state and large animal vets are in demand, yet most women want to practice small animal and not wrestle cows and such. Occasionally one will specialize in horses, and frankly, women make excellent horse vets...I've always figured it was because only a woman could understand a snarky mare, a gelding, and a stallion. I've seen mares just ride herd on male vets meanwhile the female vets seem to make the most ornery cuss of an old horse do exactly what she wants! :D:lol:

 

So, State is seriously looking for boys. I personally know of women who have been wait listed three or four years for a spot in vet school. Women with 4.0 undergrad science degrees and stellar references. They've been passed over for males with 2.5's and not so great references, but perfectly happy to have their arm up a cow's behind! Ask any of our local vets and they'll tell you males can practically write their ticket to vet school here.

 

The biggest large animal practice near here (10 vets in partnership together) are run ragged and really need two more large animal vets because they travel so far....they also need ones that will specialize in natural care and nutrition because we have some rather large organic dairy operations near here.

 

Bring your boys...make them veterinarians! :001_smile:

 

Faith

 

See, DH started on the path to large vet medicine, but got sucked into the math department and never looked back. :lol:

 

Not everyone can afford those things though so it's ridiculous that being an excellent student isn't enough. I met a woman who put her kid in ice hockey starting when he was 6. At 6 it cost $1000 for the session (which I believe was 3 months). That's insane.

 

This leads me to wonder, how often would it make more financial sense to just bank your hook money? I know people who could never afford to save for college, but their daughters attended several dance classes a week from a very young age through high school. A lifetime of hockey HAS to cost more than a college education. It's insanely expensive! I realize that getting into college and paying for it are very different, but paying for it is probably more problematic than getting in these days.

[Guest submarines]

This may have a little CC or maybe not Christian content, but Higher Power content, at least.

 

I have never been able to push my children, because it is my belief that each one of them was intentionally created to fulfill her own unique purpose on earth.

 

I have taught them to listen to the little voice within them, and to make life choices that align with what they hear.

 

When we were spending thousands on Mr. Clever's instruments, and lessons, both Dh and I told him that we were investing in something we believed would enrich his life, but he did not owe us to pursue music as a career to pay us back.

 

Sure enough, he decided to major in business instead of music, although he still takes lessons for pleasure.

 

When he took his first business classes at 15, he stood out in his class, because he had already worked with Miss Good to form her company. He had business cards, he designed her website, he could discuss his marketing plans, and what he wished he had done differently. His professor was very supportive, and became a repeat soap customer. He told Ds, "You are already doing what everyone in this class hopes they will be able to do someday."

 

If I had decided that music was going to be his "hook" then he would never have had the free time to help with the company.

 

If colleges are looking for unique activities, Miss Good has it made. there can NOT be a flood of young people passionate about sustainable farming practices. Can there?

 

Too bad she would be miserable in a competitive school environment. But she has done very well at listening to the little voice in her head. She lives a life that is true to her beliefs, and people respond very strongly to that in her.

 

So many doors have opened for her because people have caught her enthusiasm. Her company continues to grow in spite of the economy. She has almost finished her picture book about the farm that Ds is going to put on kindle, and is experimenting with. Making interactive well. She has schools and churches that want her to give a short talk about her company then sell books.

 

My point is that we, as parents did not force any of these activities. We just got our own preconceived ideas and expectations out of the way, and provided an environment where they can learn on their own.

 

I can not get too worked up about getting into a specific college. Whatever happens, I will believe that it is for the best, and what is meant to be for them.

 

So much also depends on "who you know" and they have adults at different schools who absolutely love and admire them, and would be willing to "put in a good word" along with their applications.

 

It is actually very freeing to play a supportive role in their lives, and let them make their own choices.

 

Beautiful and inspiring.

[Wildiris]

DD18 is headed to college in the fall to study Music with a nearly-full ride.

 

Grades were good, ACT score good but not amazing. She is a good solid player and creative, but not amazing.

 

What made her stand out and won her the scholarship was that for all four years of high school, she had volunteered in the music classes at the local elementary and jr. high, giving free lessons to beginning band students, 2-3 days a week.

 

A unique way to set one's self apart from the crowd. It show initiative and giving back to community.

 

How many "Hooks" are truly unusual enough to stand out, anyway? I mean, there are a LOT of girls who take horseback riding. Or dance. Or whatever. I'd think that what would make the college applicant stand out would have to be something novel, exclusive to the student and not typically seen, and that's not going to be any sort of common extracurricular.

 

Although if my DD actually achieves her goal of getting an ELE/NLE medal every year until high school graduation, maybe that would show something...or not. (we'll see what happens once she actually TAKES the ELE this year :) ).

 

In the current competitive climate of college admission this may not be enough to get into a top tier college.

 

Unfortunately, in my social circle, I have encountered a number of hyperintelligent, hypertalented kids who should've been slam-dunks at an Ivy caliber school but who got shut out because of the insane competition in recent years. The top schools are now rejecting 93-94 applicants out of every 100. Harvard could fill their freshman class more than three times over just with applicants who have perfect SAT scores.

 

There really *IS* that much competition these days, and I do worry about what it means for my kids.

 

This is the most accurate post I read. There really is that much competition and its not just that our kids are competing for admission spots with American kids. College admissions, at least in the top tier schools, fields a pool of global applicants bring out of country tuition $$.

 

I don't have time to read all of the comments so it's possible someone said this, but homeschooling is a hook!

 

My oldest three were accepted to top-tier schools (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT), and none of them had any incredible extracurriculars -- they were just normal, well-rounded kids. They did have lots of 5's on APs (8-12), near perfect SAT and subject test scores, recommendations from CC professors, and national awards. But, as many people pointed out, LOTS of kids have all of that.

 

One thing that made my kids stand out from the crowd is that they were homeschooled. An admissions officer at Harvard told my daughter after she was a student there that they actually have a quota for homeschoolers. At that time (2007), they took 13 a year.

 

I wonder with popularity of homeschooling if these quotas will remain.

 

I don't think the import of these articles should be ignored or deemed as over-the-top. My DD received that thin envelope from competitive online high school. I suspect her rejection wasn't from lack of grades or lack of pursuit. Within the 26 page application of multiple essays, DD failed to set herself apart from her peers with a passionate pursuit that translated into something exciting on the page and showed her as a person who moved beyond just her little universe.

 

What I learned for the next application: I think it is more a question of what your child can contribute. What has your child done with what ever situation they've been raised. Ambition counts for a lot. What has your child done to reach their ambition?

 

The process reminds me of Scoop Nisker--"If you don't like the news go out and make some of your own."

[Mom0012]

I find it awful. Yes, my DD does ride horses too - but she is white, not a champion, and this is most likely not giving her the edge for college admissions. But you know what? I refuse to look at the childhood and highschool years as merely a preparation period in which one grooms for college admission. I see these years as her LIFE. And she should spend her life doing things that are fun, that she likes, that she is interested in. If the interest gives her an edge in admissions, that is an added bonus. But I refuse to play the game. I want her to explore interests, and to enjoy her high school years while they happen.

She does have the academics for a selective school, but if Ivy does not happen, it is not the end of the world. We consider living more important.

 

:iagree: Thanks for saying this. These were my first thoughts as well.

 

Lisa

[redsquirrel]

I have a friend who recently retired from her job as an admissions officer for an ivy. I can hear her now telling us we are all missing the big issue. If you have a 'hook' (and they are nothing new) but can't talk about it, can't relate it to other parts of your life then it is meaningless.

 

If you like to dance, but can't write a decent essay about what your dedication to dance has taught you, how it made you the person you are now, and where you hope those lessons will take you, then you are just a dancer. If you can't sit in an interview and tell them about some specific dance role models, some history of the dance that you find inspiring, some ways you have incorporated that inspiration into your own art, then you aren't going to interest them.

 

Someone up thread talked about how their parents tried to make them participate in activities. Well, right there you have a great essay and conversation topic. Someone else talked about reading, again, great 'hook' if you can write a decent essay and really discuss those books in depth.

 

So many kids are box checkers. Volunteer work? check. Athletics? check. Lead in the community theater? Check. But there is no passion, no intellectual curiosity. Ask them to discuss the themes of the play they acted in and they can't. Ask them about a work of fiction that meant something to them, they can't. If they are a STEM kid, did they read in their field? Ever do research on their own? Do something to pursue that curiosity? Can you express it? It is about being able to make that rhetorical leap in writing and conversation.

 

Homeschooling is and is not much of a hook. It might earn you a second glance, but after that you need more. The more selective schools have always had kids who come from alternative educational backgrounds, and the less selective schools sometimes don't know how to quantify it. The very competitive schools see 'homeschooling' and expect something exotic. If you are just a plain old high achieving homeschool kid with a few APs and a lot of classic books, you don't look that different from every other applicant. Admissions officers see home school and think 'freedom to explore' and they expect it to be filled with something of interest.

 

I think mostly they want applicants who can prove they took advantage of what what around them. A kid who has every advantage and looks like everyone else isn't that interesting. A kid who has a few advantages and really put them to good use is more interesting.

[hillfarm]

I am much, much more concerned about my dd's character than I am about which college accepts her application. Therefore, I assist and encourage her to participate in activities that will build her character rather than considering whether those activities will be the current rage when the applications are considered.

 

Also, I am supporting her in activities that would enable her to get a more accurate picture of what she would ultimately do with her major after college. I am currently helping her gain the computer skills she will need, as well as helping her find internships, workshops, seminars, etc. that will give her a very good feel for her future career, if she pursues the major she currently intends.

 

When I worked as a marine biologist, I often got calls from kids who developed an passion for marine life in elementary school, put their eye to the microscope in Jr. High and never looked up again until they were finishing college. A that point, they called me, seeking that job they had seen on tv, you know, the one where you stand on the prow of a boat plying tropical waters and count the dolphins or whales that so obligingly swim and play in your wake.

 

They were devastated when I explained to them that I averaged 20 days in the lab for every day in the field and that most of the marine biology job openings I knew of consisted of sitting in some tiny lab, counting conch larvae or identifying algae cells. They were near tears when I talked about salary ranges and how much competition there was for those few, low paying positions.

 

While they had pursued all those extracurriculars (music, homeless shelters, dog training) and developed their hooks (champion this and nationally ranked that) to dazzle admissions committees, they had neglected to study their own career trends. They were crushed to find that reality had little resemblance to their expectations.

 

I am certainly NOT saying that extracurriculars are of no value. I am saying that IMo, it is short sighted to focus on window dressing to impress the admissions people instead of emphasizing activities that will grow your dc into excellent human beings and those that will help them "try on" the career they are considering so that they might make better choices of schools in the first place.

[Laura Corin]

Someone else talked about reading, again, great 'hook' if you can write a decent essay and really discuss those books in depth.

 

The Oxbridge interview is about discovering which applicants have a true passion for the subject, a passion that has taken them far beyond the school curriculum. You can get an A at school for English (for example) by reading the set texts, learning them really well and writing good essays. To get through the Oxford or Cambridge interview you have to be able to talk interestingly about your own independent reading, show your own passion and originality. The interviews are conducted by the dons (professors) who will end up teaching the students: they are looking for applicants who will be fun and rewarding to teach.

 

Laura

[Just Kate]

Well, exactly. I've never worried a whole lot about guiding my kids to a "hook" in the name of college admissions. However, I noticed when I was in high school and drifting, myself, that the kids I knew who seemed to come through adolescence happiest and healthiest were the ones who had a passion for something. It was best, I thought, if that passion was in some way related to school, because the kids who had an investment in school had a reason to go and to do well.

 

This, right there, is the reason we support our kids in their interests, why we pay the bills and drive the commutes and go to performances. We want them to have a reason to get up in the morning, to care.

 

The fact that one or more of those things may turn into a "hook" is nice, but not the motivation for us.

 

Love this post!!! I sort of tried to say something similar earlier, but did not do a great job. This is exactly how I feel about finding a "hook" for my dc.

[Susann]

but homeschooling is a hook!

 

:iagree:

[Crimson Wife]

I realize that getting into college and paying for it are very different, but paying for it is probably more problematic than getting in these days.

 

I would say that with the generous financial aid policies for low-to-moderate income students these days at the top schools, the hard part is winning acceptance. Harvard is free for students whose families make <$60k/yr and no more than 10% of the family's income for those making $61k-$200k. But only 5.9% of applicants got in this year :(

[dirty ethel rackham]

 

I am certainly NOT saying that extracurriculars are of no value. I am saying that IMo, it is short sighted to focus on window dressing to impress the admissions people instead of emphasizing activities that will grow your dc into excellent human beings and those that will help them "try on" the career they are considering so that they might make better choices of schools in the first place.

 

Amen!!

 

And another note ... is it really important to go to an Ivy or a near-Ivy? After reading Colleges That Change Lives by Loren Pope, I let go of the whole prestige thing and focused on what would be the best fit for my kids and would prepare them better for the future.

[dirty ethel rackham]

OTOH, I am passionate about rock climbing which I did not pick up until age 18.

 

As am I, but I didn't pick it up until age 40. Dd11 loves climbing and is an excellent competitive climber. I just wish we lived closer to some real rock to give her more outdoor experience. She loves camping and the outdoors, but Girl Scouts around here is definitely NOT about camping:).

 

Actually, most of my current interests are not ones that I had at 10 or 18 or 25.

 

As far as hooks go, I am all about getting kids up off the couch and trying new things. But, it has to be something that they connect with. My boys would not have become black belts in Karate if it wasn't something they enjoyed. We allowed them to quit baseball and soccer (which drew gasps from the neighbors:)) because we could see that they weren't excited about it. I didn't force my ds18 to be a scientist. But, we encouraged a love of learning in our house and I fostered interest he already expressed by subscribing to science magazines (not the ones for kids) and having quality materials around the house. I didn't force ds16 into cartooning. He doodles all of the time. His doodles turned into an award-winning 4H project - a comic strip reinterpreting Hamlet with modern-day teen characters.

[redsquirrel]

Amen!!

 

And another note ... is it really important to go to an Ivy or a near-Ivy? After reading Colleges That Change Lives by Loren Pope, I let go of the whole prestige thing and focused on what would be the best fit for my kids and would prepare them better for the future.

 

I agree with you completely. However, this idea of having a 'hook' to stand out etc isn't limited to the Ivy League or near Ivy. I have that same book (it is GREAT, btw) and many of those college are fairly selective.

 

If there is a school that is a good match then the applicant needs to find a way to stand out and get picked. Even my local state school with an acceptance rate of 40% turns away 60%. If you want to be in that 40% then it matters very much.

 

My niece is one of those highly qualified white girls. She got into a college but is trying to transfer. It isn't going well. FWIW, she is boring as heck. She's a dean's list student, but privileged and vapid. I keep thinking that if I were an admissions officer I would want someone more deserving and more interesting in my school.

 

My son has his 'hook' I think. He's finishing up 6th grade so lots can change. He's a ballet dancer, theater geek kind of kid. Next year he is joining a choir. I know it's his passion because I don't have to make him do it. I spend most of my time trying to get him to stop! :lol:

[Crimson Wife]

And another note ... is it really important to go to an Ivy or a near-Ivy? After reading Colleges That Change Lives by Loren Pope, I let go of the whole prestige thing and focused on what would be the best fit for my kids and would prepare them better for the future.

 

The greater the percentage of the population who hold bachelor's degrees, the more there is a flight to (perceived) quality. Back when my Baby Boomer parents were in their 20's, simply having a bachelor's degree in any field from any school was enough to set a job applicant apart from the crowd. Now in many metro areas, the majority of those in their 20's hold a bachelor's degree. Because college graduates are now so common, employers can afford to be very picky about the schools from which they recruit.

[Violet Crown]

I used to worry about this sort of thing, as Great Girl clearly had the potential for a top college. But she badly wanted/needed to go to college early, and not being ready to leave home, applied to Big State U. down the road. She's deliriously happy to be starting in the fall. It's academically solid in her areas of interest, tuition is reasonable, and she can live at home and bike in. If Harvard sent her a spontaneous offer tomorrow, she wouldn't go.

[kalanamak]

 

So many kids are box checkers. Volunteer work? check. Athletics? check. Lead in the community theater? Check. But there is no passion, no intellectual curiosity.

 

I'm absolutely sure I got where I got because, as an older student, I oozed sureness in my decision, frankness, the ability to crack a joke or disagree with an interviewer, and passion.

 

What did I have? One set of 75%ile standardized test scores, a B average in exactly 4 basic science classes (my undergrad had no lectures, grades, or tests, and the only GPA I had was the 4 science requirements), a pair of letters from science lecturers who were teaching classes of over 150 students, one letter from a psychologist I did a minimal bit of volunteer time, and that was IT.

 

The rest was my application essay and how I presented myself. All those years of working as a cook or dishwasher and then going home to devour a book a night were not wasted. As one interviewer said, "You will have to be able to talk to people from all walks of life, not just people of your own race, own socioeconomic back ground, own educational background." I looked her in the eye and told her that by the end of the first quarter, I would be chummier with the janitors than with my fellow classmates, and I was! My "hook" was having just proven I could do the mental work, but was not cookie cutter.

[mom2abcd]

Well, our dd was one of the 5.9% who got accepted to Harvard and she is a "Well-Rounded White Girl." She has no special "hooks" that I know of. She's a wonderful girl who has done a ton of extracurriculars and volunteering while keeping a perfect GPA, getting high grades on AP classes and ACT and SAT tests and working... God gets all the glory! He is the One who gave her the gifts and abilities and the drive.

 

We are parents who have provided resources and opportunities and encouragement, but we have never pressured. I don't agree with the mindset in the second article and elsewhere of prepping your child for a prestigious school. Just let kids be kids. If they want to try for a prestigious school, fine.

 

As I post, dd is "frittering her time away" on FB and texting friends. She is enjoying life. I think that's smart!

 

"I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." ~Jesus (John 10:10)

[lea_lpz]

I've always thought kids should have a "hook". All kids. By the time they are middle school age.

 

Kids who do not have something that they focus on tend to get in more trouble. They don't have reason to set goals. They don't see a direction. Mastering a sonata, a flip on a balance beam, building a robot may or may not lead to future careers, but the focus and goal setting skills the child develops as they master these things will be lifelong skills they will always use.

 

Additionally, without the anchor kids drift. Drifting can lead to trouble. I work with kids in an "alternative" setting. I see it all the time. Even kids from "good homes". Even kids whose parents pay attention.

 

Hook? Hmmm...not really why we are doing extra curriculars right now. For me, it's more about creating a balanced person and allowing them the opportunity to develop a passion. From there the rest should follow.

 

Really, I think this article is a little hyped up. Maybe a "hook" is needed for a Caucasian female from a family with college degree to get into a private top tier school but seriously, why would you want them to go to a school that expensive. I think there's plenty of opportunity to get a great education at public university and lesser known private schools and still have great job prospects too. And for a lot less money and in my opinion a better learning experience if not for the exposure a diverse student body alone.

 

I went to Berkeley, and I would not trade that experience for Princeton or Yale any day

[mom2abcd]

I think there's plenty of opportunity to get a great education at public university and lesser known private schools and still have great job prospects too. And for a lot less money and in my opinion a better learning experience if not for the exposure a diverse student body alone.

 

 

Harvard has amazing financial aid. Caucasian females from a family with college degrees can go for free, depending on income. Harvard also has a a very diverse student body.

 

But you're right that people can get a great education at public universities and lesser known private schools. (Harvard was just cheaper and well... it's kinda hard to turn down Harvard;o)

Edited October 25, 2012 by mom2abcd