Where do horrid children come from?

[Laura Corin]

There's a girl in Hobbes' class who gave him a hard time when he first went to school. She (let's call her 'Jez') deliberately did things to get him into trouble (told him rude words to say to the teacher, suggested short cuts through the girls' changing rooms, told lies to teacher about him...). We told the school and it was sorted out - Jez has a record of doing things like this, so the headmaster talked to her and her parents, and it stopped. H and she dislike each other but ignore each other.

 

One day I was in the class and I saw her in action. One other girl had a pretty paper bag with her (not sure what was in it) and Jez walked up to her, looked her straight in the eye, and ripped the bag from top to bottom. The look in her eye was the best illustration of 'malevolent' that I had ever seen. The other girl was just minding her own business.

 

Having seen her in action, I don't think she is someone with poor impulse control, a need for attention, excess energy, misdirected sense of fun..... She's just horrible. She's the queen bee of the class - the other girls don't dare go against her.

 

Her parents seem loving to her, although not friendly to the other parents. Where does this kind of child come from? Is it something that good parents struggle with?

 

For the record: my children are not angels. They do the wrong thing, make mistakes, get cheeky, push the limits...... But I've not seen malevolence in their eyes.

 

Laura

[Parrothead]

I don't know how much truth there is to my theory but maybe she is spoiled and it will take a kid bigger than her to pop her right in the eye to correct the problem. Essentially she gets away with it because she can.

[Laura Corin]

I don't know how much truth there is to my theory but maybe she is spoiled and it will take a kid bigger than her to pop her right in the eye to correct the problem. Essentially she gets away with it because she can.

 

... isn't some form of empathy innate? I had always assumed so, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it has to be taught.

 

I do know there are vile people in the world - I'm still reeling from a local news item I read last Friday and which I'm not going to post here...... I'm struggling with ideas about nature and nurture, and where it all comes from.

 

Laura

[kwg]

is about consequences maybe? If she has always pretty much gotten away with it.......

[goldberry]

I've read some books about psychopathy (it has another name now I can't remember). It seems that most psychopaths have an innate predisposition but then it is also triggered by some external circumstance.

 

I read an interview with someone who feels he is indeed a psychopath, but his parents and homelife were so exceptional that he turned out being able to function. It was odd listening to him though, because he does things because he "knows" they are the right thing to do, but not because he really "feels" they are the right thing to do. He says he doesn't have those feelings AT ALL.

 

So in answer to your question...I think some horridly behaved kids come from horrid parents, but there is the rare 'malevolent' kid (kid without conscience) and I don't think it matters too much who their parents are. There have been some studies that show that their brain patterns are actually different from the general population.

[Dmmetler]

There's one like that in one of DD's dance classes. She's 10, and is just plain a mean, badly behaved bully of a kid. DD finally had enough of her and told her off earlier this Spring when the girl, after months of cutting comments, poking and pushing on DD, went after one of DD's friends, who is a sweet, darling, but not particularly assertive or bright little girl. (Honestly, picking on that particular child is about like deliberately hurting a puppy-it's THAT level of meanness). For the most part, I think every parent in the class has simply cautioned their child to stay away from this girl. It was kind of sad, but yet wasn't, at the recital rehearsal to see the rest of the girls cluster together and exclude this child-but at the same time, having seen what this child has done to them all year, the safest thing they can do is to shut her out.

 

The mother sits out in the waiting area every week and bemoans the trouble her child has gotten in at school and how nothing works-but when the child is running around, pushing other kids, making her comments, and generally being nasty, the mother says nothing-it's left to the other adults to manage, or try to manage, and the girl thinks nothing of telling an adult "I don't have to listen to you".

 

According to a friend who works at the school and who's son is in this child's class, it's been a constant struggle since the girl entered kindergarten, and the mother fights the school on every single intervention they've tried. The girl DOES have an ADHD diagnosis, but her behavior is a lot more intentionally mean as opposed to the impulsive behavior typical of ADHD. It's likely she'll end up in the district's alternative school once she reaches middle school. In elementary, she doesn't meet the criteria for a behavior disorders placement, but once she gets to middle school, and such a placement exists, she's likely to run afoul of the zero tolerance for bullying policies.

 

Fortunately, her mother says that the girl won't be dancing this summer.

Edited May 2, 2012 by dmmetler

[laundrycrisis]

My own personal experience with kids/people who are malevolent is that the child's parents do not see this in the child at all. It is either blindness or denial, but the parents do not see it and it is never addressed. They may be aware of other problems with the kid's behavior, but not the raw cruelty. I don't know if it is parental-love goggles or emotional self-preservation or what, but the parents appear unwilling or unable to see what might be a horrible character flaw in their child, and address it properly.

Edited May 2, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[Parrothead]

... isn't some form of empathy innate? I had always assumed so, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it has to be taught.

 

I do know there are vile people in the world - I'm still reeling from a local news item I read last Friday and which I'm not going to post here...... I'm struggling with ideas about nature and nurture, and where it all comes from.

 

Laura

No. Not always. That is one of the ways we end up with serial killers.

 

Empathy can be taught to an extent.

[Aggie]

There's one like that in one of DD's dance classes. She's 10, and is just plain a mean, badly behaved bully of a kid. DD finally had enough of her and told her off earlier this Spring when the girl, after months of cutting comments, poking and pushing on DD, went after one of DD's friends, who is a sweet, darling, but not particularly assertive or bright little girl. (Honestly, picking on that particular child is about like deliberately hurting a puppy-it's THAT level of meanness). For the most part, I think every parent in the class has simply cautioned their child to stay away from this girl. It was kind of sad, but yet wasn't, at the recital rehearsal to see the rest of the girls cluster together and exclude this child-but at the same time, having seen what this child has done to them all year, that's really the safest thing they can do is to shut her out.

 

The mother sits out in the waiting area every week and bemoans the trouble her child has gotten in at school and how nothing works-but when the child is running around, pushing other kids, making her comments, and generally being nasty, the mother says nothing-it's left to the other adults to manage, or try to manage, and the girl thinks nothing of telling an adult "I don't have to listen to you".

 

According to a friend who works at the school and who's son is in this child's class, it's been a constant struggle since the girl entered kindergarten, and the mother fights the school on every single intervention they've tried. The girl DOES have an ADHD diagnosis, but her behavior is a lot more intentionally mean as opposed to the impulsive behavior typical of ADHD. It's likely she'll end up in the district's alternative school once she reaches middle school. In elementary, she doesn't meet the criteria for a behavior disorders placement, but once she gets to middle school, and such a placement exists, she's likely to run afoul of the zero tolerance for bullying policies.

 

Fortunately, her mother says that the girl won't be dancing this summer.

 

Parenting is hard work. We have to teach our children right from wrong. We have to tell them "no" sometimes.

 

Preaching to the choir here, I know.

[GoVanGogh]

What I have noticed is that some parents (most often the dad or stepdad) are actually bullies. We tend to think of bullies as children, but the children are learning that behavior at home. The parent bullies the child and the child learns that it is acceptable to treat others (typically smaller or weaker) in the same manner. And the cycle continues.

That certainly isn't the case every time, but I have noticed it again and again in our neighborhood.

[justamouse]

The trolls took them in, thinking they could be taught how to be a Troll, only the wretched children failed their classes, and so the trolls let them go, and stood at the door, shaking their heads wondering what happened to all the bad children.

[amy g.]

I once knew a child who was truly awful, back stabbing, manipulative, sneaky, lying.....the trouble was that we REALLY loved her mom and sisters. I tried to tell myself that it must have been bad parenting, but I could not believe that the mother was faking being so nice.

 

We prayed about it, and it turned out that that child started having a schedule conflict, and we were able to spend time with her family when she wasn't around. 10 years later, she is a lovely young adult who I enjoy.

 

I think her hatefulness came from a basic insecurity. She needed to make others feel bad to make herself feel better. I also discovered that her grandmother really fed into that competitiveness. Fortunately, I think the continued example of a truly nice family, with healthy values won out.

 

I have a child who could have easily become a monster. Before having her, I could never have imagined a child behaving that way. My sister called her a "bad seed". My best friend threaded to tag her in a photo of Linda Blair.

 

Looking back, I think the root of her problem is being so brilliant that she is frustrated that developmentally, she can not already do the things she imagines herself doing.

 

She spoke in sentences at 7 months. By the age of 3, she used, "suspicious" "ironic", "problematic", and "inconspicuous" correctly in everyday conversation.

 

Fortunately, she has turned into a wonderful child, but there were sure some days that I feared I wouldn't survive her.

 

I've seen plenty of children that were horrid due to "unparenting" but I feel for the parents of inherently difficult children.

 

Parenting is not for the weak of heart. That is for sure.

[swellmomma]

What I have noticed is that some parents (most often the dad or stepdad) are actually bullies. We tend to think of bullies as children, but the children are learning that behavior at home. The parent bullies the child and the child learns that it is acceptable to treat others (typically smaller or weaker) in the same manner. And the cycle continues.

That certainly isn't the case every time, but I have noticed it again and again in our neighborhood.

 

:iagree:The kids we have had the biggest issue with in our town(and in the past) tend to have parents that a) just don't give carp and claim there is nothing they can do and/or they are in pure denial, little perfect johnny could not have just attempted to solicite sex from my daughter for $20, my daughter must have been asking for it. Etc...OR b) they are bullies themselves and actively teach the kids to be bullies.

 

When I first read the title I was thinking of kids that are "horrid" like mine. Loving attentive mom but always into trouble. But to read your description of the situation definitely sounds like she has a parent that fits the above.

 

As for empathy. My oldest son does not naturally have it. I have to actively draw it out, model it and teach it to him and have been doing so since he was a toddler. He is improving but it is a work in progress. It is one of the reasons for one of his current Dx. Conduct disorder is what he has, at age 18 the label gets changed to antisocial personality disorder formerly known as psychopath. Psychopaths do not automatically become serial killers, but they lack the ability to empathize with others and therefore tend to get stuck in what I consider a toddler level of social development as far as if they want something they take it. They don't have the ability to empathize to consider the victim of what they do. FOr some it stays at a manipulation level, perhaps a con man. Or their are theives, or arsonists, or yes serial killers. It is not guaranteed they will do these horrible things but is more likely. People like these need to be actively taught to stop and consider the victim, to have empathy etc. Ds is improving, though mostly inregards to animals but even then I sometimes still have to be very specific with him. People he is getting there but less reliably. He is not always actively harming someone, but sympathy and empathy are not natural states for him. So where we cringe and worry when we see someone fly off their bike for example and then rush to help them. He stands there and laughs, then he finally gets help. He can not put himself in that person's shoes so he thinks it is funny to see them flying off with limbs flailing kwim.

 

Loving and attentive parents who actively parent can still end up with these horrid kids, but the vast majority of the ones I see fit the descriptions in A and B above.

[laundrycrisis]

Difficult is not the same as malevolent, mean or cruel.

[Lolly]

For most kids, it is the parenting. For some kids, it is innate. Not something people like to admit.

[DianeW88]

Whenever my dh and I see kids like that, we just call them "The Bad Seed". Because sometimes that's just what it is. Watch that old movie again and see if you don't see that girl's face on the main character. Some kids are just rotten.

[jewellsmommy]

... isn't some form of empathy innate? I had always assumed so, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it has to be taught.

 

I do know there are vile people in the world - I'm still reeling from a local news item I read last Friday and which I'm not going to post here...... I'm struggling with ideas about nature and nurture, and where it all comes from.

 

Laura

 

 

One of the evaluations that ds received was one that showed him "weak" in the ability to read/perceive/identify the emotional state of others. So, no, it is not innate for everyone.

 

It makes sense to probably 99% of the population, but not all. "Oh look at what that girl just did. Look at the other little's girl's face. How do you think she is feeling... She looks sad and hurt to me. Wouldn't you be sad if that was you?" We do this sort of dialogue with ds to help him process and think about empathy. If you point it out, then he kind of gets it. Otherwise he is quite clueless. He is too caught up in his own emotional baggage to see the feelings of others.

 

It could be parents/attachment, it could be traumatic events, it could be chemical/brain/genetic...or a combination that lead to this of behavior.

[ChristineW]

For most kids, it is the parenting. For some kids, it is innate. Not something people like to admit.

 

I agree. My nephew is like the girl in the OP, except that he isn't popular. He is belligerent and aggressive but when he gets caught he goes sobbing to his mother about how he's a bad boy and everyone hates him and he can't understand why he does the mean things. She feels sorry for him and then protects him from consequences. Maybe he is truly sorry, but I worry that the mean kid is his true self and have tried to limit my kids' contact with him.

 

I disagree with some of his parent's parenting choices, but my niece is an extraordinarily sweet, shy girl. I think that the absolute lack of empathy in her brother is something internal and personal that will take lot of hard work for both the parent and child to overcome. Lots of times, parents are just overwhelmed by their "bad" kids and don't know what to do.

[LG Gone Wild]

There's a girl in Hobbes' class who gave him a hard time when he first went to school. She (let's call her 'Jez') deliberately did things to get him into trouble (told him rude words to say to the teacher, suggested short cuts through the girls' changing rooms, told lies to teacher about him...). We told the school and it was sorted out - Jez has a record of doing things like this, so the headmaster talked to her and her parents, and it stopped. H and she dislike each other but ignore each other.

 

One day I was in the class and I saw her in action. One other girl had a pretty paper bag with her (not sure what was in it) and Jez walked up to her, looked her straight in the eye, and ripped the bag from top to bottom. The look in her eye was the best illustration of 'malevolent' that I had ever seen. The other girl was just minding her own business.

 

Having seen her in action, I don't think she is someone with poor impulse control, a need for attention, excess energy, misdirected sense of fun..... She's just horrible. She's the queen bee of the class - the other girls don't dare go against her.

 

Her parents seem loving to her, although not friendly to the other parents. Where does this kind of child come from? Is it something that good parents struggle with?

 

For the record: my children are not angels. They do the wrong thing, make mistakes, get cheeky, push the limits...... But I've not seen malevolence in their eyes.

 

Laura

 

 

Bad parentlng ... I have often felt guilty for despising our next door neighbor's son. You aren't supposed to hate children, right? Lord help me, I just to drop kick that boy over into another universe. There is just something WRONG with that boy. The lady is nice but has raised her son very poorly.

 

We have some other kind of bratty kids in our neighborhood but, despite their brattiness, they are okay.

[Kathryn]

Agree with these. I've seen plenty of "nurture" problems, but also a fair number of "nature" ones. And then there is the fact that the "nature" problems need far more than just a loving, strict environment to learn social skills and that often doesn't happen.

 

I've read some books about psychopathy (it has another name now I can't remember). It seems that most psychopaths have an innate predisposition but then it is also triggered by some external circumstance.

 

I read an interview with someone who feels he is indeed a psychopath, but his parents and homelife were so exceptional that he turned out being able to function. It was odd listening to him though, because he does things because he "knows" they are the right thing to do, but not because he really "feels" they are the right thing to do. He says he doesn't have those feelings AT ALL.

 

So in answer to your question...I think some horridly behaved kids come from horrid parents, but there is the rare 'malevolent' kid (kid without conscience) and I don't think it matters too much who their parents are. There have been some studies that show that their brain patterns are actually different from the general population.

 

:iagree:The kids we have had the biggest issue with in our town(and in the past) tend to have parents that a) just don't give carp and claim there is nothing they can do and/or they are in pure denial, little perfect johnny could not have just attempted to solicite sex from my daughter for $20, my daughter must have been asking for it. Etc...OR b) they are bullies themselves and actively teach the kids to be bullies.

 

When I first read the title I was thinking of kids that are "horrid" like mine. Loving attentive mom but always into trouble. But to read your description of the situation definitely sounds like she has a parent that fits the above.

 

As for empathy. My oldest son does not naturally have it. I have to actively draw it out, model it and teach it to him and have been doing so since he was a toddler. He is improving but it is a work in progress. It is one of the reasons for one of his current Dx. Conduct disorder is what he has, at age 18 the label gets changed to antisocial personality disorder formerly known as psychopath. Psychopaths do not automatically become serial killers, but they lack the ability to empathize with others and therefore tend to get stuck in what I consider a toddler level of social development as far as if they want something they take it. They don't have the ability to empathize to consider the victim of what they do. FOr some it stays at a manipulation level, perhaps a con man. Or their are theives, or arsonists, or yes serial killers. It is not guaranteed they will do these horrible things but is more likely. People like these need to be actively taught to stop and consider the victim, to have empathy etc. Ds is improving, though mostly inregards to animals but even then I sometimes still have to be very specific with him. People he is getting there but less reliably. He is not always actively harming someone, but sympathy and empathy are not natural states for him. So where we cringe and worry when we see someone fly off their bike for example and then rush to help them. He stands there and laughs, then he finally gets help. He can not put himself in that person's shoes so he thinks it is funny to see them flying off with limbs flailing kwim.

 

Loving and attentive parents who actively parent can still end up with these horrid kids, but the vast majority of the ones I see fit the descriptions in A and B above.

[amy g.]

There is a situation that my kids call, "sweet mom, awful kids syndrome".

 

Sometimes the nicest women just don't have the backbone to stand up to their kids and say, " Hey, you had better cut that out, NOW!"

 

We just can't stand to be around families like that, no matter how nice the moms are.

[Rebecca VA]

I loathe bad parents as much as anyone, and I especially despise ones who are in denial, but I do want to say one thing in their defense. There are many parents who are OVERWHELMED by their children and CANNOT change them. They may cringe at every wrong thing the kids do, and they may even have reached out for help, but they cannot get a solution.

 

My older child was very difficult, especially when he was little, and my husband was in the Navy and seldom home during those years. (And when he was home he didn't discipline him.) I had to field occasional calls from parents complaining about my son's behavior. They seemed to want an immediate solution, which I completely understood, but I couldn't do much. I would just cry and feel helpless. I know many people thought I was spoiling him and raising him wrong, but I was doing my very best. It took years for this son to settle down.

[laundrycrisis]

IMO the kids who enjoy being cruel because they enjoy seeing others in emotional pain do not "lack empathy". They know darn well that the other person is experiencing emotional pain, and they fine tune their skills in causing pain to others. A kid who has not developed empathy just does the things he/she wants to do, without regard for others feelings. It's a kind of ignorance. But a cruel person, big or little, is far from ignorant, and is well aware of others' feelings and enjoys manipulating them to hurt people. This is malevolent. They do it with ill intent. This is what I observe that parents are often not able to see in their child.

[Laura Corin]

IMO the kids who enjoy being cruel because they enjoy seeing others in emotional pain do not "lack empathy". They know darn well that the other person is experiencing emotional pain, and they fine tune their skills in causing pain to others. A kid who has not developed empathy just does the things he/she wants to do, without regard for others feelings. It's a kind of ignorance. But a cruel person, big or little, is far from ignorant, and is well aware of others' feelings and enjoys manipulating them to hurt people. This is malevolent. They do it with ill intent. This is what I observe that parents are often not able to see in their child.

 

However, is there a difference between being 'well aware' of others' feelings and actually feeling for them, empathising with them? One can understand what others are feeling without being emotionally affected by it.

 

Laura

Edited May 2, 2012 by Laura Corin

[Kathryn]

However, is there a difference between being 'well aware' of others' feelings and actually feeling for them, empathising with them? One can understand what others are feeling without being emotionally affected by it.

 

Laura

 

Yes, empathy is not an intellectual understanding of emotion, but rather the ability to place oneself in that person's emotional state and understand the feelings they are experiencing. It's an ability to identify with someone else that is lacking in many personality and developmental disorders, even though that person may constantly feel rejected or maligned by others. If they had the ability to identify with others, they wouldn't be intentionally cruel.

[laundrycrisis]

This is how the math works to me:

 

A person with empathy can feel another person's pain, and hurt for them. This is not a pleasurable feeling.

 

A person without empathy may observe signs and realize that another person is in pain, but does not feel it or "hurt for" them. But they may still be able to learn socially appropriate responses to another person's emotional pain.

 

A cruel person with empathy's evil mirror twin feels pleasure at another person's pain.

[SKL]

I dunno. There is a girl in my kids' KG class who had that kind of look the other day. I always knew she was the class troublemaker (and she has bitten and spit on my kids among other things), but I just thought she had self-control issues until I saw her in action. She was clearly out to

get someone who wasn't even interacting with her. Strange.

 

Her parents seem a bit self-absorbed but not "mean." As far as I know!

 

Makes me feel sorry for teachers.

 

Also, this makes me wonder about Stroller Lady all over again.

 

ETA: Not to start a spanking debate, but something popped into my mind about Miss Biter over here. She has told my kids that despite the fact that her mother is called by the teacher very frequently about her behavior, her mom does not spank her. Of course, I have no way of knowing whether the mom does anything else, but appearances are that they are not very serious about disciplining for school behavior (at least). Which makes me wonder if this is one of those kids who craves discipline and will do almost anything to get it. Could that be the case with your Miss Horrible?

Edited May 2, 2012 by SKL

[nova147]

This all makes me think of the book series turned TV show Dexter.

 

I agree most horrid kids are poorly parented. And some are just born that way. Which is horrible to even consider.

[SKL]

When my SIL's kids were that age, they would get into fights, etc. It was always the other child's fault. Even if the other child was younger, smaller, and had no motive to attack, her kid was always the victim. At one point her dd had to attend anger management classes because she repeatedly kicked a classmate (who was "down" and not fighting back) on the playground, while her older sister egged her on. That wasn't her fault, either. That was the fault of the classmate for being the offspring of a lawyer.

 

Seems strange that there are moms who can't picture their kids being wrong. I mean, at the very least we can remember when we were kids and got a few bad ideas of our own, right? But I guess the mom instinct distorts things more for some people than for others.

 

Oh, and the box of stolen condoms she found in her dd's room? Stolen and placed there by my sister. Uh huh. Not sure whom she blamed for the fact that both of her dds got pregnant out of wedlock. I think she's still mad that my sister was older and married when she had her first.

Edited May 2, 2012 by SKL

[Amy1k]

I think it is really easy to blame parenting, but plenty of good people are the product of terrible/abusive parents and plenty of good people raise terrible children. Anyone who has raised a difficult child knows that kids are free to make choices that differ from what they have been taught by their parents and that children are terribly difficult to control. ;)

[woolybear]

My own personal experience with kids/people who are malevolent is that the child's parents do not see this in the child at all. It is either blindness or denial, but the parents do not see it and it is never addressed. They may be aware of other problems with the kid's behavior, but not the raw cruelty. I don't know if it is parental-love goggles or emotional self-preservation or what, but the parents appear unwilling or unable to see what might be a horrible character flaw in their child, and address it properly.

 

I have also noticed sometimes these kids can be quite.....I'm not sure of the word....manipulative? They know when to cover up, fake innocence, etc. Sometimes they do it so consistently with their parents, that maybe that is part of why they don't see it.

[Teachin'Mine]

From your description of her, the first image that came to mind was Nellie from Little House. :lol: Funny to read about or watch on TV, but there is nothing funny about them in person. The question I've always had is why do private schools keep them? I know public schools have no choice, but others, for which parents are paying tuition, should follow the rules as they state them and not allow the few to make many miserable. Sorry your son and his class are dealing with "Jez". I agree with the others - it's a result of poor parenting.

[Jennifer3141]

There is a clutch of granola-type mothers that have been hanging out since LLL together up here. They are all former cheerleaders and now, they all homeschool together and I swear it is just so the mothers than ostracize other parents more easily...

 

Anyway, one of the nastiest moms had her third baby - a cute little girl. And she had the baby on the grass next to her when her eldest - a little terror I like to call Dexter Jr. - went up to his sister and pinched her arm HARD. She cried, the mother turned around and comforted her and Dexter skated away. Two minutes later, the process repeated. Picture mother smiling beautifically at Dexter and he skips away.

 

On the third time, a friend of mine said, "Hey, you do realize that your son is pinching the baby, right?"

 

Beautific mother said, "Oh no. That doesn't happen in my home. We don't allow violence."

 

Friend and I looked at each other and made this face: :glare:

 

And we never allowed our kids to play with Dexter again. The look on that boy's face when he saw our horror at his getting away with it all was TERRIFYING. That little psycho knew what he was doing.

 

Every time Dexter runs off at park day with someone else's child, I am just grateful it isn't MINE. Not surprisingly, Dexter has joined a little clique that makes fun of the other kids in the homeschool group. Park days have become less of a priority with this group. :lol:

 

I do think it's likely Dexter will hurt someone someday. He's never seen a consequence of any real well, consequence.

[NASDAQ]

They come from my house :glare:

 

My children have acted with malevolence before (although I'm not sure they transmitted the intention to do so through their eyes). If yours haven't, they're unusual, or you're not a neutral observer.

[laundrycrisis]

On the third time, a friend of mine said, "Hey, you do realize that your son is pinching the baby, right?"

 

Beautific mother said, "Oh no. That doesn't happen in my home. We don't allow violence."

 

....

 

The look on that boy's face when he saw our horror at his getting away with it all was TERRIFYING. That little psycho knew what he was doing.

 

This is exactly what I am talking about. Parents who refuse to see that their child is hurting others on purpose, for his/her own pleasure, and a kid who learns to enjoy the feeling of getting away with it. This creates monsters.

 

I am not talking about difficult behavior. I have a difficult child myself. I know that in some cases, everything a parent does is not enough. I'm sure there are many people who think my difficult child is a spoiled, manipulative brat who is not parented well. But this is different. This is the type of kid who enjoys hurting others or getting other kids in trouble, and becomes very good at getting away with it without getting caught and getting into trouble. They are manipulative, they get pleasure from hurting others, they are good at getting away with it, and they get a thrill from the whole process.

 

I do think probably every kid tries it at some point. And as parents, we will not always notice. But IMO it is very important that we do our best to notice it, and when we see it, not be in denial about it, not be indifferent to it, and do not put off addressing the behavior. When I see kids who consistently do this, it is generally obvious to any other adult watching, and only the child's own parent doesn't see it or doesn't interpret it as intentional cruelty.

Edited May 2, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[missmoe]

I've run into a similar girl recently. I usually sit behind her family at church each week. I watch her boss and bully her little brothers during our church services while sitting next to dad and mom. I watch her exclude other girls in her class. I watch her rudely interact with the other girls. I've watched the satisfaction on her face as others get hurt. I've watched her use her body to threaten other girls all the while with a sweet smile on her face. At first I thought her parents just didn't care.

 

But as I've gotten to know her parents, I've realized they just don't know what to do about the situation. Last weekend I was the leader at a campout for the group of girls aged 12-14. This girl was rude and nasty to her mom and her mom ignored the behavior about 70% of the time. She refused to help with any of the chores handed out to all the girls. She accused my daughter of stealing her food. She tried to trip another girl. She muttered about how another girl looked ugly in her swimsuit and shouldn't be wearing it. She complained about the schedule laid out. Later on the mom came to me almost in tears about the behavior. She knew it was wrong, but didn't know what to do about it. She wanted another adult to step up and help her. Her father has also made comments that she drives them crazy with her behavior but they just don't know what to do.

 

So I guess lack of parenting skills can contribute to kids like this.

[Belacqua]

When my SIL's kids were that age, they would get into fights, etc. It was always the other child's fault. Even if the other child was younger, smaller, and had no motive to attack, her kid was always the victim. At one point her dd had to attend anger management classes because she repeatedly kicked a classmate (who was "down" and not fighting back) on the playground, while her older sister egged her on. That wasn't her fault, either. That was the fault of the classmate for being the offspring of a lawyer.

 

Seems strange that there are moms who can't picture their kids being wrong. I mean, at the very least we can remember when we were kids and got a few bad ideas of our own, right? But I guess the mom instinct distorts things more for some people than for others.

 

You make an interesting point. I'm tremendously sympathetic for parents with difficult children. I understand that we cannot control the way our kids think or feel, and we can't direct their every action, despite our best efforts.

 

But I have a friend with a very difficult son. He has been tossed out of every school and organization they've ever had him in, but my friend will not accept that the problem lies with the boy. The schools just don't try hard enough to understand him. The Boy Scouts were a bunch of cliquish people from a different church so they wouldn't give him a chance (never mind he was throwing desks and screaming obscenities). The martial arts teacher just didn't care enough to overlook the kid's ceaseless misbehavior.

 

She's really a lovely woman and has done a good job with her other kids, and I feel awful for her difficulties with her son. But it is truly frustrating when she blames everyone else and blindly refuses to believe that her boy, whom she insists has a "good heart," is the one physically and verbally assaulting adults and other kids.

[Tap]

Sometimes it is the parents.

 

Sometimes, it is just the way the kids personality works and it has nothing to do with the parents. DD5 is this way. She would look you dead in the eye and do something very wrong. Our older children are not this way. They are kind, generous and loving. She is the kid at daycare that parents call to complain about. She is the kid that punched someone today. She will hit, kick, spit, scream and punch just because she didn't get the purple pencil today. It isn't lazy or complacent parenting. We have had over 200 therapy sessions. She is medicated. She has a one-on-one at daycare to protect her and the other children. She is getting better. She does have a diagnosis.

 

She has been this way since she was a baby. Her bio-mother (my niece) is the exactly the same way.

 

Empathy is not intrinsic in her. We are slowly making headway on teaching her, but we don't know if she actually feels empathy or is just acknowledging that logically someone is hurt. She wants, what she wants, 100% of the time. God help the person who decides to get in her way.

 

Sometimes bad parenting isn't a choice. If my niece was parenting dd5, I don't think she would see her actions the same way we do....because she would be just like good'ole'mom.

[chiguirre]

Having seen her in action, I don't think she is someone with poor impulse control, a need for attention, excess energy, misdirected sense of fun..... She's just horrible. She's the queen bee of the class - the other girls don't dare go against her.

 

 

That sounds very typical of middle school. This girl is 12ish and working hard to maintain her position as queen bee by cowing all the other kids in her class. She might be a sociopath or she might mature a bit and become a decent human being before going off to university (I'd lay my money on her maturing).

[leeannpal]

I think it is really easy to blame parenting, but plenty of good people are the product of terrible/abusive parents and plenty of good people raise terrible children. Anyone who has raised a difficult child knows that kids are free to make choices that differ from what they have been taught by their parents and that children are terribly difficult to control. ;)

Not only this, but some parents raise both horrid children and well-behaved children in the same family.

[angela in ohio]

Sometimes it's parenting; sometimes it's special needs; sometimes it's a phase. Unless I know the parents well enough to know it's an apple/tree scenario, I try not to judge, because there are issues that will create children like that despite good parenting (though I would say that is a small minority of cases.)

 

I have to say, though, that I prefer a "handful" over a mean child any day. I know some people who are very proud of their well-behaved children, but they are nasty little mean things on the inside. When the parents point with judgement to other kids who are naughty but kind-hearted, I really want to shake them. :glare: Those kind-hearted kiddos will grow up just fine once they mature, but mean is often just mean. I actually like kiddos with some spunk, but sneaky and malicious I avoid.

[Jpoy85]

From what I have observed, they usually come from horrid parents.

 

:iagree:

 

The parents may seem loving and wonderful, but really, they are just like the kids.

[Farrar]

They're changelings.

 

Or maybe they're sociopaths and no amount of nurture will help. There's a This American Life episode about sociopaths that's really thought provoking and disturbing...

[swellmomma]

:iagree:

 

The parents may seem loving and wonderful, but really, they are just like the kids.

 

Cool. I guess I am horrid person. A psychopath just like my son. Not a good loving parent. I have been faking it all along. You figured it out.

[TranquilMind]

So in answer to your question...I think some horridly behaved kids come from horrid parents, but there is the rare 'malevolent' kid (kid without conscience) and I don't think it matters too much who their parents are. There have been some studies that show that their brain patterns are actually different from the general population.

 

I think this is probably true.

[Georgiana Daniels]

... isn't some form of empathy innate? I had always assumed so, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it has to be taught.

 

I do know there are vile people in the world - I'm still reeling from a local news item I read last Friday and which I'm not going to post here...... I'm struggling with ideas about nature and nurture, and where it all comes from.

 

Laura

 

It is, except in sociopaths, etc. After reading The Sociopath Next Door, I realized it's not always the parents' fault when a kid just comes out...wrong.

[laundrycrisis]

Sometimes it's parenting; sometimes it's special needs; sometimes it's a phase. Unless I know the parents well enough to know it's an apple/tree scenario, I try not to judge, because there are issues that will create children like that despite good parenting (though I would say that is a small minority of cases.)

 

I have to say, though, that I prefer a "handful" over a mean child any day. I know some people who are very proud of their well-behaved children, but they are nasty little mean things on the inside. When the parents point with judgement to other kids who are naughty but kind-hearted, I really want to shake them. :glare: Those kind-hearted kiddos will grow up just fine once they mature, but mean is often just mean. I actually like kiddos with some spunk, but sneaky and malicious I avoid.

 

:iagree: I know some kids who are very "well-behaved" and rarely attract enough attention to themselves to get in trouble - but they are cold, heartless, mean, cruel little people. They know what they are getting away with and they show little smiles as they do their thing. They also know that I see right through them.

 

These kids don't lack empathy - they are cruel. They do not have impulse control problems and they are not overwhelmed inside and reacting to anything that gets in front of them. They are people who are fully in control, but have morally gone off-course, and learned to enjoy it.

[TranquilMind]

This is exactly what I am talking about. Parents who refuse to see that their child is hurting others on purpose, for his/her own pleasure, and a kid who learns to enjoy the feeling of getting away with it. This creates monsters.

 

I am not talking about difficult behavior. I have a difficult child myself. I know that in some cases, everything a parent does is not enough. I'm sure there are many people who think my difficult child is a spoiled, manipulative brat who is not parented well. But this is different. This is the type of kid who enjoys hurting others or getting other kids in trouble, and becomes very good at getting away with it without getting caught and getting into trouble. They are manipulative, they get pleasure from hurting others, they are good at getting away with it, and they get a thrill from the whole process.

 

I do think probably every kid tries it at some point. And as parents, we will not always notice. But IMO it is very important that we do our best to notice it, and when we see it, not be in denial about it, not be indifferent to it, and do not put off addressing the behavior. When I see kids who consistently do this, it is generally obvious to any other adult watching, and only the child's own parent doesn't see it or doesn't interpret it as intentional cruelty.

 

I think this is the key here. We've all been difficult and we've all had kids who were difficult - at least some of them and at least some of the time. But most of us pounce on it, and work with the kid from the first time they do it or we see it.

 

The kid who enjoys hurting people, and the parent who simply cannot SEE it are really frightening. These kids grow up and don't change.

[TranquilMind]

:iagree: I know some kids who are very "well-behaved" and rarely attract enough attention to themselves to get in trouble - but they are cold, heartless, mean, cruel little people. They know what they are getting away with and they show little smiles as they do their thing. They also know that I see right through them.

 

These kids don't lack empathy - they are cruel. They do not have impulse control problems and they are not overwhelmed inside and reacting to anything that gets in front of them. They are people who are fully in control, but have morally gone off-course, and learned to enjoy it.

 

I will probably get jumped on for this, but that's ok. I think some of these sorts of problems are spiritual, i.e. demonic. There is nothing normal or simply difficult about serial killers or others who enjoy hurting people. I don't think demonic spirits simply vanished after the first century, as many do (who are Christians, I mean). But, obviously, I don't have the manual on how it all works, but Christians are called to discernment.

 

I do know that I've met a person here and there in my life that caused the hair to raise on the back of my neck.

[SuperDad]

I only read the first couple of pages of this thread so if this thread has taken a completely off-topic turn, I apologize in advance.

 

I am not sticking up for that child's actions, but believe it pertinent to mention that I was a horrible, terrible, awful child, pretty much just like the one you described. To some extent, I must have realized that my actions were inappropriate, based on peer feedback and my report card comments and such. But I can tell you that for the most part I honestly did not believe I was doing anything wrong. It wasn't that I chose to be a horrid person. I thought that everyone ELSE was doing it wrong!

 

It wasn't until around age 13 that I developed enough awareness of myself to realize that I was a rather mean person. And it took me even longer to figure out HOW to not be a mean person (I knew I wasn't nice, but couldn't figure out how to be nice). To this day, I'm pretty socially awkward, and I constantly have to monitor my own behavior to make sure I'm being nice and civil. This may sound rather silly, but I just wanted to point out to you all that this child may not realize how awful her behavior is. Even if you tell her, "you are being mean," she might have to realize it for herself (as I had to).