I must vent...and cry a bit

[Nakia]

Warning: Extremely long, possibly confusing (I've been up for about 36 hours), and guaranteed grammatical errors.

 

Back story: I have two brothers, both younger than me. I have always been very very close to both of them. The "baby" is 10 years younger than me, and his name is Scott. He has always been a little cocky and a little spoiled (baby out of 5 kids). He is a police officer and in the military. My husband and I started dating when Scott was 5, so Scott doesn't really remember not having Patrick in his life. They used to be real buddies, going fishing, playing sports, etc. Then Scott "grew up," got busy, and their relationship changed. But they've still always been close. And my girls ADORE Scott.

 

So last March at Emma's 8th birthday party, there was a...problem. We had gotten 4 little baby chicks that week, and one of our dogs killed one while the party was going on, right in front of the guests. Things got hectic, and there were like 6 crying kids, and it was just bad and stressful. Scott had been only home for a week from a 10 month tour in Afghanistan. At one point, Scott yelled for me to calm down. And I told him to shut up, which was way out of character for me and out of line, I admit. At that point, Scott got up in my face, pointed at me, and screamed, "F*ck you!" Well, Patrick (my husband) did not handle that well at all. Let me tell you Patrick is the most laid-back, easy-going guy you could ever meet, but he didn't react well to my brother treating me that way. He grabbed Scott and slammed him up against the wall. They had a few words, and my dad broke them up before they exchanged any punches, thank God. It was really bad. I was pretty hysterical by that point. Scott left, Patrick calmed down, and things sort of settled. About a month later, I went to Scott's house, he told me that he loved me, and we hugged but never really talked about it. He's not a big talker, and I didn't want to push it.

 

Okay, so that was all a year ago. Scott didn't come to Anna's birthday party in August or Cora's in December. His wife came to the parties, and I actually just assumed Scott was working. At Christmas, when he and Patrick saw each other for the first time since the incident (9 months later) Scott walked out of the room when we walked in. He would not acknowledge Patrick at all. Patrick tried to talk to him, but Scott refused to speak to him. It was awkward! Patrick didn't let it bother him. It takes a lot to upset him. But I was really upset.

 

This brings me to today, Emma's 9th birthday. We had a party this afternoon. Keep in mind that all this time, I have assumed that Scott was working so he had to miss the other girls' parties. His wife showed up, and I asked point blank if Scott was working. She said, "No, he's just hanging out at the house." I felt like I had been kicked in the guts. Seriously. I can't believe as close as we've always been, how much my girls love him, and the fact that we made up, that he STILL refuses to let this go. I'm betting he wasn't working when we had the other girls' parties either. Before all of this happened, the only time he had missed one of my girls' parties was when he was in Afghanistan. I know, without a shadow of doubt, that he "has no use" for Patrick. I've heard him say that about a lot of people. Like I said, he is cocky.

 

Please do not bash my husband. Patrick believes he did the right thing. He truly felt Scott was a danger to me. He has said he will not apologize to Scott, so that's not an option. I guess it will just be this way, but it hurts me for my kids. If I confront him, he will probably blow up, and then it will start all over again. I know he was in a hard place, having just been in the middle of a combat zone, but he has to know he was wrong. Right? He has a wife, and I know he would never tolerate another man speaking to her that way. It almost makes me question how he speaks to her though. :(

 

I just feel sad. For my kids, for my brother who is missing out on their lives, for me. I miss my brother. When I see him at my mom's or out in town, he acts totally normal. I think he has truly just written Patrick off and is holding tight to this grudge. The thing is that the person Scott is angry with is not suffering because of his actions. "Suffering" isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

 

:crying:

 

ETA: Typing all this out really helped. Maybe it's best if my brother is not part of our lives right now. I pray he grows up soon.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Nakia

[Whereneverever]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

I am sorry. :grouphug:

[GWOB]

:grouphug: My husband would have done the same thing. Well, after I ripped the offender a new one. Families are hard.:grouphug:

[gardening momma]

ETA: Typing all this out really helped. Maybe it's best if my brother is not part of our lives right now. I pray he grows up soon.

Yes, while reading your post I was thinking that some people, while they have gone through many life experiences as an adult, are still very immature.

[jrn]

:grouphug:

[kalanamak]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I don't blame you for being hurt, but if someone had put me up against the wall, I wouldn't be around them until they were old and feeble. You hear about too many family shootings these days, and there was a family knife brawl at a restaurant here recently.

[*********]

Nakia, I have a similar situation going on with my baby sister (who is 22, but is still the baby, iykwim). It hurts. A lot. I miss her. My boys miss her. But right now, it's for the best that we're not close.

 

I keep giving it back over to the Lord. I pray some day, she'll grow up and get over it/herself enough to move on. I also pray that if/when she does, I'm gracious enough to do the same.

 

:grouphug:

[redsquirrel]

I am sorry you are dealing with this. And, FWIW, I am very anti-violence, but if someone acted in a threatening manner towards my dh or my kids, even if it was my beloved sibling, I would prob do what your dh did. My dh is a long hair hippie librarian, and I am sure he would protect me in the same manner. Love does that to your brain.

 

I do think your brother is owed an apology because your dh 'used his body and not his words' (like we tell our kids) but I don't think he needs to apologize for his anger or his desire to protect you. I also think your brother owes you an apology for yelling at you and getting in your face like that. That is just as unacceptable as hitting someone.

 

I honestly think your brother knows he got Way Out of Line and is embarrassed. Or, he is nursing one of those delusional grudges.

 

I am sorry you are caught in the middle.

[jenL]

I'm so sorry you are hurting... family tension can be so painful. :grouphug:

 

Personally, I don't believe your husband acted out of line. Well, maybe pushing Scott up against the wall was a little much, but to defend you as he did was not out of line. Does that make sense?

 

I wonder if Scott is extremely hurt by Patrick's actions because maybe he has always looked up to Patrick because Patrick was older and has been his life for such a long time? Maybe Patrick was incredibly cool to him when Scott was younger? You said they used to be buddies until Scott's life became busier as he grew older. Even if they didn't have the time together like they used to (fishing, etc), he may have still looked up to Patrick, trusted him and loved him like a brother. Therefore, Patrick's actions at the birthday party may have taken him completely off guard and he is still unable to recover. If Scott had Patrick on a pedestal all these years, and this issue happened in front of family, I'm wondering if his ego was hurt, his feelings were hurt, and maybe he feels betrayed by Patrick. If this is the case, it's easy for Scott to go around saying he doesn't have much use for Patrick because cutting Patrick down makes it appear to others that he's strong and that Patrick is just a jerk, but he's not (despite telling you to F'off). His bad-mouthing of Patrick makes him feel better temporarily and fuels the anger he is holding onto.

 

The best way for them to work this out is for them to talk about this (as you know). That is easier said than done, of course. Do you think Patrick has ever looked at how he may have hurt Scott by defending you because Scott may have idolized him? I'm not making excuses for Scott as his behavior to you warranted your dh stepping in. I'm just wondering if this is a case of stubborn male egos...

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[MariannNOVA]

Nakia, I am so sorry. Maybe the best thing is to give it time and let G-d work. My dh's family had a similar situation years ago b4 dh and I were married, and now, 17 years later (these things take time) the two individuals who were involved and their families (and dh and I were not involved in this) are fine.

 

give it time.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Nakia]

See, I asked Patrick why in the world he slammed Scott against the wall like that. I'm telling you I have NEVER seen Patrick act that way. My middle brother and I have all but brawled, and Patrick has stayed out of it. Patrick told me that something clicked in him, and he felt like he had to protect me from Scott. He said he was honestly scared for me. I don't get it. It must be a guy thing. Or maybe it's kinda like "momma bear" or something. Patrick can't really explain it except that he just knew Scott could and would hurt me at that moment if he didn't intervene. Please know that I don't condone Patrick's behavior. But knowing him and knowing how out of character it was, I do believe him.

[swellmomma]

:grouphug:

[brehon]

:grouphug: My husband would have done the same thing. Well, after I ripped the offender a new one. Families are hard.:grouphug:

 

:iagree: :grouphug: My dh would have probably slammed the offender up against the wall and just hit him, no talking.

 

I think your brother is embarrassed. If he's as cocky as you say he was (in his mind) manhandled by someone NOT in the military. That's hard for some young men to deal with; so, he's avoiding your dh at all costs so he doesn't have to relive the (perceived) humiliation. I think giving your brother space is good.

 

:grouphug:

[SKL]

We've had some doozies in our family, but when it comes down to it, we know we love each other. It blows over, though it can take a while. I hope that happens for you.

 

Maybe you could drop him an email just saying "my girls love and miss you." Maybe he needs to hear that you really want him in the girls' lives.

 

ETA: He may also be "hearing" something unintended in the fact that you haven't previously asked where he was during the girls' parties. Like you were quite fine with his not being there. I'd let him know he's wanted and welcome.

[mommytime]

:grouphug: I'm so sorry.

[eternalknot]

I think in the heat of what sounds like a highly stressful environment (chaos and a live chicken killing at a kiddie party), both men acted on their respective instincts.

 

I tend to be more sympathetic towards the brother. It always took my husband months to get back to his usual self when he came back from deployments. We knew not to take anything he did during that adjustment personally; not to say we bent over backwards to accommodate his outbursts, but we reigned in the instinctual reactions more than we might have during a garden-variety outburst. As a wife, prepped and knowing what to expect, this was more easily done than would be possible or expected by my husband's sister. Though her husband is also military, he's in a desk job and even in combat zones he sits in the a/c trying hard not to get a paper cut. He's never had to re-adjust the way some other soldiers (perhaps like your brother?) do. We had a run in with her (SIL) and DH similar to the one you describe, so I really empathize with your situation. I know it caused a very deep rift and wound between them. They're friendly and loving again, but their relationship is forever marred.

 

I get that your brother is cocky, and that your husband is not sorry for what he feels was honoring his wife. I'd even imagine your husband is sorry that the situation happened, but maybe not that he did what he felt was appropriate. The thing is, he can convey exactly that; man to man, husband to husband. And at that point, the ball is in your brother's court.

 

I have siblings with an even larger age span than that of you and Scott. It's a tricky relationship in that they've always known (your spouse). It's not a normal adult in-law relationship, it's this weird hybrid thing that comes with its own tricky dynamics. I think some of Scott's processing of the whole event stems from that. I wonder if deep down, time having passed, he understands where your husband was coming from but he's still reconciling that this person ... someone he saw as a brother/mentor thing ... treating him like that, in front of a crowd, but most importantly in front of the people he most loves (you, girls), independent of any reasons. On a base level, emotionally speaking, perhaps he's just unable to work past it and unwilling to try. Some people have a one-strike rule, and your brother sounds like one of them.

 

I know it's hard to not have him present at your celebrations, but if he can't behave and be civil to your husband then I think he's doing you the bigger favor. Maybe he realizes it, maybe he's being the brat who took all his sand toys and went (stayed) home - who knows.

 

I'm sorry you're upset, but you have to let the men have their own relationship. Even if it's strained, maimed, or non-existent. I wish both of them would see how much their respective pride is hurting their shared love: you and your daughters. I don't intend to bash your husband, but it's also unfair to take his refusal to apologize (again, even that the situation happened and not necessarily that he reacted how he did) and place the entire burden of the strained relationship on your brother. IMO.

 

You said your brother isn't a talker, but maybe you can write something heartfelt -much like you did here- to let him know that his presence is missed, your family is hurting, and you hope that however he feels about your husband he's able to put those aside and behave civilly for the greater good of your entire family.

 

:grouphug:

[5kidsforME]

Nakia, :grouphug:

 

This is a tough one. You are caught in the middle and that stinks.

 

I believe that your husband had the right to defend you, verbally. I understand why he did what he did. Unfortunately, I don't think it was ok for him to touch him, let alone slam him up against the wall. I understand how it could happen and sympathize. He needs to apologize to your brother.

 

Your brother is acting immature too. He should have risen above and let it go or confronted Patrick about it. It's a shame he didn't.

 

All that said, if it was me, i would be encouraging my husband to apologize for getting physical while making it clear that defending you (verbally) was necessary.

[Nakia]

Thank you all for your hugs and your advice. And thank you for being gentle with me.

 

I just wanted to say that I have tried to communicate with Scott, and like I said, he acts normal as long as Patrick isn't around. I have texted him and sent him facebook messages, in addition to telling him, that we miss him.

 

Also, I had never really thought about the fact that maybe Scott is embarrassed. That could very well be the case.

 

The fact is that both of these men that I love so much are letting their pride lead them. Neither of them will apologize unless God gives them a kick in the pants. The best thing I can do is pray. I heard someone say recently that if she has a problem with her husband, she tells him once. After that, she tells God. I'm trying to adopt that practice.

 

For some reason it's easier to be mad at Scott. I guess it's because I don't live with him. I really do just hurt. I love him so much. And I worry because I don't think he's dealt with things he saw and did in Afghanistan.

[NASDAQ]

I have to say, if someone slammed me up against a wall and it nearly came to blows, I'd be avoiding that person, possibly forever. Especially right after I'd come back from deployment.

 

Has your husband apologised to your brother for making it physical? That might open the door for your brother to apologise as well. I get that your husband doesn't think he did anything wrong, but sometimes you just take one for the team, kwim?

[TravelingChris]

I guess I look at it through law enforcement eyes. What your brother did was wrong, what you did was wrong, but only what your husband did was illegal. It was just a whole batch of errors- brother shouldn't have been in such a noisy place- maybe a kids party so soon after a deployment was a very bad idea. Once the kids were all crying, they should have been moved outside or downstairs or somewhere else. You shouldn't have yelled, shut up. He certainly should have not gone up to you, pointed a finger at you and used a vulgarity that way. But your husband over-reacted since he could have just as easily got in between you two and told him to go outside.

 

Now what to do? Nothing. Your husband will not apologize and your brother will not have anything to do with him. Maybe time or God will help.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[PrincessMommy]

Warning: Extremely long, possibly confusing (I've been up for about 36 hours), and guaranteed grammatical errors.

 

Back story: I have two brothers, both younger than me. I have always been very very close to both of them. The "baby" is 10 years younger than me, and his name is Scott. He has always been a little cocky and a little spoiled (baby out of 5 kids). He is a police officer and in the military. My husband and I started dating when Scott was 5, so Scott doesn't really remember not having Patrick in his life. They used to be real buddies, going fishing, playing sports, etc. Then Scott "grew up," got busy, and their relationship changed. But they've still always been close. And my girls ADORE Scott.

 

So last March at Emma's 8th birthday party, there was a...problem. We had gotten 4 little baby chicks that week, and one of our dogs killed one while the party was going on, right in front of the guests. Things got hectic, and there were like 6 crying kids, and it was just bad and stressful. Scott had been only home for a week from a 10 month tour in Afghanistan. At one point, Scott yelled for me to calm down. And I told him to shut up, which was way out of character for me and out of line, I admit. At that point, Scott got up in my face, pointed at me, and screamed, "F*ck you!" Well, Patrick (my husband) did not handle that well at all. Let me tell you Patrick is the most laid-back, easy-going guy you could ever meet, but he didn't react well to my brother treating me that way. He grabbed Scott and slammed him up against the wall. They had a few words, and my dad broke them up before they exchanged any punches, thank God. It was really bad. I was pretty hysterical by that point. Scott left, Patrick calmed down, and things sort of settled. About a month later, I went to Scott's house, he told me that he loved me, and we hugged but never really talked about it. He's not a big talker, and I didn't want to push it.

 

Okay, so that was all a year ago. Scott didn't come to Anna's birthday party in August or Cora's in December. His wife came to the parties, and I actually just assumed Scott was working. At Christmas, when he and Patrick saw each other for the first time since the incident (9 months later) Scott walked out of the room when we walked in. He would not acknowledge Patrick at all. Patrick tried to talk to him, but Scott refused to speak to him. It was awkward! Patrick didn't let it bother him. It takes a lot to upset him. But I was really upset.

 

This brings me to today, Emma's 9th birthday. We had a party this afternoon. Keep in mind that all this time, I have assumed that Scott was working so he had to miss the other girls' parties. His wife showed up, and I asked point blank if Scott was working. She said, "No, he's just hanging out at the house." I felt like I had been kicked in the guts. Seriously. I can't believe as close as we've always been, how much my girls love him, and the fact that we made up, that he STILL refuses to let this go. I'm betting he wasn't working when we had the other girls' parties either. Before all of this happened, the only time he had missed one of my girls' parties was when he was in Afghanistan. I know, without a shadow of doubt, that he "has no use" for Patrick. I've heard him say that about a lot of people. Like I said, he is cocky.

 

Please do not bash my husband. Patrick believes he did the right thing. He truly felt Scott was a danger to me. He has said he will not apologize to Scott, so that's not an option. I guess it will just be this way, but it hurts me for my kids. If I confront him, he will probably blow up, and then it will start all over again. I know he was in a hard place, having just been in the middle of a combat zone, but he has to know he was wrong. Right? He has a wife, and I know he would never tolerate another man speaking to her that way. It almost makes me question how he speaks to her though. :(

 

I just feel sad. For my kids, for my brother who is missing out on their lives, for me. I miss my brother. When I see him at my mom's or out in town, he acts totally normal. I think he has truly just written Patrick off and is holding tight to this grudge. The thing is that the person Scott is angry with is not suffering because of his actions. "Suffering" isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

 

:crying:

 

ETA: Typing all this out really helped. Maybe it's best if my brother is not part of our lives right now. I pray he grows up soon.

 

:grouphug::grouphug: I'm sorry that happened. It doesn't matter who's fault it is or isn't, it's never fun when things go sour in families.

 

I think typing it out can be very therapeutic. I'm glad it made you feel a little better.

[dsmith]

From the way you described your brother getting in your face, pointing at you, and saying what he said, it probably seemed very threatening to your husband. It would certainly have seemed very threatening to my dh. From that position, it’s only one more move and he is physically assaulting you. Your husband acted like many would in that situation, I believe. Have you talked with your brother about the situation? It seems that after a year, things should have cooled off by now. He seems a bit immature. Sorry you have to go through this.:grouphug:

 

 

 

 

 

See, I asked Patrick why in the world he slammed Scott against the wall like that. I'm telling you I have NEVER seen Patrick act that way. My middle brother and I have all but brawled, and Patrick has stayed out of it. Patrick told me that something clicked in him, and he felt like he had to protect me from Scott. He said he was honestly scared for me. I don't get it. It must be a guy thing. Or maybe it's kinda like "momma bear" or something. Patrick can't really explain it except that he just knew Scott could and would hurt me at that moment if he didn't intervene. Please know that I don't condone Patrick's behavior. But knowing him and knowing how out of character it was, I do believe him.

[Impish]

I'm sorry :grouphug:

 

Fwiw, Wolf would have done the same thing.

 

I got the impression that your brother came off as being physically threatening to you, by his invading your space, his anger...and yeah, my dh would totally grab someone away from me and slam them against a wall if he saw that happening.

 

He wouldn't even think about it, it would be completely instinctual...and no, Wolf wouldn't apologize for protecting his wife either.

[*Inna*]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

See, I asked Patrick why in the world he slammed Scott against the wall like that. I'm telling you I have NEVER seen Patrick act that way. My middle brother and I have all but brawled, and Patrick has stayed out of it. Patrick told me that something clicked in him, and he felt like he had to protect me from Scott. He said he was honestly scared for me. I don't get it. It must be a guy thing. Or maybe it's kinda like "momma bear" or something. Patrick can't really explain it except that he just knew Scott could and would hurt me at that moment if he didn't intervene. Please know that I don't condone Patrick's behavior. But knowing him and knowing how out of character it was, I do believe him.[/QUOT

 

I have read up to here, and I just keep wondering................. maybe Scott has PTSD? Maybe that is why Patrick sensed danger? He had spent all that time in a warzone, I can imagine his reaction wasn't "normal" towards you. I can understand Patrick sensing this.

 

I think that if I were in your shoes, I would write a letter to my brother to let him know how much you miss him, how you love him and it pains you that he is not in your kid's lives. I would ask, in a letter, if there was any way he could put this aside for you and the kids.

 

Doing so in a letter won't have him unleashing his fury on you. And again, if he is going to blow up at you over this type of conversation, has he always been like this? Or is it since he was in the service?

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[LBS]

Your brother needs to dig deep and see that your husband loves you enough to protect you from any threat, even him. If he can see this, then he will be thankful.....but its hard to get to that point. I hope time will heal....and if he cannot get there for your sake, then he needs to get there for the sake of the next generation: his children, his neices and nephews.

 

Hopefully, they'll find some common ground, maybe an emergency or something. It sounds like male pride stuff. Hard to figure out. So sorry.

[Denisemomof4]

 

I guess it's because I don't live with him. I really do just hurt. I love him so much.

 

I think you should tell your brother how much you love him, how much you're hurting.

 

And I worry because I don't think he's dealt with things he saw and did in Afghanistan.

 

:sad: :sad: :sad:

[Denisemomof4]

 

I tend to be more sympathetic towards the brother. It always took my husband months to get back to his usual self when he came back from deployments. We knew not to take anything he did during that adjustment personally; not to say we bent over backwards to accommodate his outbursts, but we reigned in the instinctual reactions more than we might have during a garden-variety outburst. As a wife, prepped and knowing what to expect, this was more easily done than would be possible or expected by my husband's sister. Though her husband is also military, he's in a desk job and even in combat zones he sits in the a/c trying hard not to get a paper cut. He's never had to re-adjust the way some other soldiers (perhaps like your brother?) do. We had a run in with her (SIL) and DH similar to the one you describe, so I really empathize with your situation. I know it caused a very deep rift and wound between them. They're friendly and loving again, but their relationship is forever marred.

 

 

this is exactly what I was thinking, and I think that Patrick truly did sense danger, but I also don't think he maybe considered your brother needing time to readjust? Not that Patrick is in the wrong. I admire him for sticking up for you. Every husband should. I just think the entire situation was especially overwhelming to your brother. Maybe even HE didn't/doesn't realize that.

 

FWIW, ds20 had a friend over when he was around 10 years old. We had just built our barn and got our first dozen hens. They were all very young. Our favorite chicken was named Amber. She was the only one with a name! I was watching the chickens outside when the winds picked up suddenly and the black clouds were pouring in FAST. The downpours started violently. I ran outside to put all the chickens in the barn. They were in a chicken tractor dh made. Amber was the last chicken for me to grab, and I dropped the edge of the chicken tractor on her and broke her neck. :crying: I was totally hysterical. Ds and his friend cried for me I was such a wreck - me, the adult. The kid called his mom because he was so upset for me. I finally calmed myself down and went outside to bury the chicken. So I can understand the frenzy, the upset over the dead chick, the crying kids. I think everything was just too much for your brother to handle., he blew a gasket, and Patrick, sensing danger, had to come to your defense.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:I'm SO sorry for your hurt. :sad:

Edited March 19, 2012 by Denisemomof4

[*********]

I heard someone say recently that if she has a problem with her husband, she tells him once. After that, she tells God. I'm trying to adopt that practice.

 

Oh bless you for this, dear one.

 

Such wonderful advice. It's what I try to do, but I fail so often at it.

 

I really don't want to be 'like a constant dripping'. I REALLY don't.

[Aelwydd]

See, I asked Patrick why in the world he slammed Scott against the wall like that. I'm telling you I have NEVER seen Patrick act that way. My middle brother and I have all but brawled, and Patrick has stayed out of it. Patrick told me that something clicked in him, and he felt like he had to protect me from Scott. He said he was honestly scared for me. I don't get it. It must be a guy thing. Or maybe it's kinda like "momma bear" or something. Patrick can't really explain it except that he just knew Scott could and would hurt me at that moment if he didn't intervene. Please know that I don't condone Patrick's behavior. But knowing him and knowing how out of character it was, I do believe him.

 

You know what, sometimes our spouses "read" things about situations that seem safe or familiar to us, that we just can't perceive because of our bias. I don't know either your brother or your dh, but it sounds to me that Patrick is not the type of person to react without very good reason.

 

So, how I am reading this is:

 

1. Emotionally tense situation, involving a bit of shock and death.

2. Soldier has just returned from a stint in Afghanistan, with all that entails.

3. You have said something provocative that has just focused all his hostility and attention on you.

 

Again, I'm an outsider just reading this from online. But, I suspect that Patrick, who has known your brother since he was 5 years old, and thus has had extensive experience with him and his reactions, detected something very different in your brother's demeanor that sent him straight in protective mode. You may not have seen it, because of the stress and your own emotions could have been blinding you to something subliminally different, but still present in Scott's body language, his tone, his look.

 

As socialized as we are to ignore or dismiss our instincts, there are times when they still take over. I'm inclined to think Patrick's kicked in for a good reason.

 

I'm also inclined to think that Scott, if he was suffering from what many service men and women do who've served in war, may not have even been completely and mentally cognizant of his mode of thinking at the time. Patrick slamming up may have shocked him out of his funk. It also may be the one vivid and "real" memory he has of the night; meaning, if he zoned out his his temporary rage at you, he may not even understand or comprehend how he was behaving. That part could be fuzzy or missing from his mind. In his mind, he could have totally rewritten the incident where he was simply snapping back at you and Patrick just attacked him unprovoked.

 

So, in Patrick's mind, he was responding to a sense of very real danger. In Scott's mind, he may have interpreted it as being completely sidelined by an unprovoked attack by an older, stronger male he'd previously looked up and admired.

 

Perhaps none of this is helpful. I hope you can get a clearer picture though, so as to figure out how to accomplish a true reconciliation between both guys. :grouphug:

[mommaduck]

 

I have read up to here, and I just keep wondering................. maybe Scott has PTSD? Maybe that is why Patrick sensed danger? He had spent all that time in a warzone, I can imagine his reaction wasn't "normal" towards you. I can understand Patrick sensing this.

 

I think that if I were in your shoes, I would write a letter to my brother to let him know how much you miss him, how you love him and it pains you that he is not in your kid's lives. I would ask, in a letter, if there was any way he could put this aside for you and the kids.

 

Doing so in a letter won't have him unleashing his fury on you. And again, if he is going to blow up at you over this type of conversation, has he always been like this? Or is it since he was in the service?

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

:iagree:

[Denisemomof4]

 

I really don't want to be 'like a constant dripping'. I REALLY don't.

 

Yes, that would be gross. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, I agree with this one time rule/desire 100%

[Joker]

Dh said he would have done the same as your dh.

 

I also think your brother may be a bit embarrassed. He may also not want or trust himself enough to put himself in the type of situation where it could happen again (at your home for a child's birthday party). :grouphug:

[LibraryLover]

Could your brother be feeling the affects of PTSD? Or at least not quite right on that particular day, so soon after his tour ended. Bring pushed up a to a wall could have pushed him too far too soon. Could you call him, take him out for coffee and chat? Would he be open to that? I know I feel like screaming "Eff off!" sometimes. I don't do it, but I wonder if I might if my my stress was constant life/death. Maybe the over- reaction about the dead chick seemed over the top to him, having seen far worse? He might have been in massive anxiety mode, which is why he yelled at you.

 

Families sometimes fight, bad things happen...look at the Osbournes ;)...and yet they love and care for each other. Families don't have to be perfect.

Edited March 19, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Nakia]

I keep clicking refresh to read your posts. I feel really broken for my brother tonight. I think God is using this to soften my anger/hurt/resentment towards him. That is anger/hurt/resentment I didn't really know I had until today when he didn't come to Emma's party.

 

I do think he could have PTSD. He was involved in an explosion, and he has lingering physical problems from that. He lost a friend there. Of course he must have PTSD. I wish we had postponed the party. Or had it earlier. Or something. But truly, we weren't expecting him home until May. His unit was able to come home after 10 months instead of 12. That doesn't really matter though; it happened.

 

This breaks my heart because I have "mild" PTSD from a horrible motorcycle wreck I saw two years ago. I get this. And I've been harboring ill feelings towards him. :'(

 

I'm not trying to excuse Scott's behavior, just as I don't excuse Patrick's or my own. But there are many layers to this.

 

I just sent him a text because I didn't feel like I could call. It was just a short one to let him know we love him and that we missed him today. I asked Patrick if he will sit and talk to Scott. He said, "I don't know." So...we'll see.

 

You know what, sometimes our spouses "read" things about situations that seem safe or familiar to us, that we just can't perceive because of our bias. I don't know either your brother or your dh, but it sounds to me that Patrick is not the type of person to react without very good reason.

 

So, how I am reading this is:

 

1. Emotionally tense situation, involving a bit of shock and death.

2. Soldier has just returned from a stint in Afghanistan, with all that entails.

3. You have said something provocative that has just focused all his hostility and attention on you.

 

Again, I'm an outsider just reading this from online. But, I suspect that Patrick, who has known your brother since he was 5 years old, and thus has had extensive experience with him and his reactions, detected something very different in your brother's demeanor that sent him straight in protective mode. You may not have seen it, because of the stress and your own emotions could have been blinding you to something subliminally different, but still present in Scott's body language, his tone, his look.

 

As socialized as we are to ignore or dismiss our instincts, there are times when they still take over. I'm inclined to think Patrick's kicked in for a good reason.

 

I'm also inclined to think that Scott, if he was suffering from what many service men and women do who've served in war, may not have even been completely and mentally cognizant of his mode of thinking at the time. Patrick slamming up may have shocked him out of his funk. It also may be the one vivid and "real" memory he has of the night; meaning, if he zoned out his his temporary rage at you, he may not even understand or comprehend how he was behaving. That part could be fuzzy or missing from his mind. In his mind, he could have totally rewritten the incident where he was simply snapping back at you and Patrick just attacked him unprovoked.

 

So, in Patrick's mind, he was responding to a sense of very real danger. In Scott's mind, he may have interpreted it as being completely sidelined by an unprovoked attack by an older, stronger male he'd previously looked up and admired.

 

Perhaps none of this is helpful. I hope you can get a clearer picture though, so as to figure out how to accomplish a true reconciliation between both guys. :grouphug:

 

Every single thing in your post makes so much sense. Every word. Thank you. It is so helpful. Scott definitely has always had a short temper, but he had never said an ugly word or raised his voice to me, ever. Patrick reacted to the threat. I'm thankful he perceived it because I, like you said, didn't. I was too shocked, and I just remember thinking, in that split second, "Is he talking to me?"

[Nakia]

Could your brother be feeling the affects of PTSD? Or at least not quite right on that particular day, so soon after his tour ended. Bring pushed up a to a wall could have pushed him too far too soon. Could you call him, take him out for coffee and chat? Would he be open to that? I know I feel like screaming "Eff off!" sometimes. I don't do it, but I wonder if I might if my my stress was constant life/death. Maybe the over reaction about the dead chick seemed over the top to him, probably having seen far worse? He might have been in massive anxiety mode, which is why he yelled at you.

 

Families sometimes fight, bad things happen...look at the Osbournes ;)...and yet they love and care for each other. Families don't have to be perfect.

 

He might be willing to talk to me. I don't know. I'm going to pray about it first. And you're probably right about the reaction to the dead chick, which he perceived as an over reaction. The loud kids (who btw were outside, someone mentioned they should have been sent outside or downstairs) probably irritated him. It was just all really fast and awful.

[EmilyK]

Nakia, you seem like the nicest person on these boards and this may not be a good time to consider the "other side", but here's what I heard: you yelled at your brother, he yelled back at you, your husband got physical. Add to that your brother just got back from a tour and may be somewhere on the PTSD spectrum. I can just imagine that among his confidantes that you and your husband seem like you escalated the situation and owe him the apology.

 

I totally get that his interpretation of it may not be the only one, and your husband's may be closer to "the truth", but of course in relationships there's very little objective reality.

 

Is this one of those situations where there's any way to apologize and cut through all of this? Ask to see him one-on-one, talk to him about it, feel very sorry for your part in it? I guess the problem is that your husband won't and he's the one your brother has the problem with.

 

In any case, I'm so sorry you are in pain.

[Dustybug]

I am sorry you are dealing with this. And, FWIW, I am very anti-violence, but if someone acted in a threatening manner towards my dh or my kids, even if it was my beloved sibling, I would prob do what your dh did. My dh is a long hair hippie librarian, and I am sure he would protect me in the same manner. Love does that to your brain.

 

I do think your brother is owed an apology because your dh 'used his body and not his words' (like we tell our kids) but I don't think he needs to apologize for his anger or his desire to protect you. I also think your brother owes you an apology for yelling at you and getting in your face like that. That is just as unacceptable as hitting someone.

 

I honestly think your brother knows he got Way Out of Line and is embarrassed. Or, he is nursing one of those delusional grudges.

 

I am sorry you are caught in the middle.

 

:iagree:

 

:iagree: :grouphug: My dh would have probably slammed the offender up against the wall and just hit him, no talking.

 

I think your brother is embarrassed. If he's as cocky as you say he was (in his mind) manhandled by someone NOT in the military. That's hard for some young men to deal with; so, he's avoiding your dh at all costs so he doesn't have to relive the (perceived) humiliation. I think giving your brother space is good.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

 

:grouphug: I hope there will some sort of resolution to this soon for you and your family.

[QuirkyKapers]

:grouphug::grouphug:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I wouldn't expect a resolution until your husband accepts that he was out of line in his behavior as well. As long as you both blame the incident and the continuing resentment on your brother's "immaturity", I can't really blame him for wanting little to do with your family.

[annandatje]

Even though it is painful all around, your brother is behaving as he should: avoiding the person who resorted to physical force to deal with conflict. To be expecting further concession from him would be unrealistic. He is not forbidding his wife and children from seeing your family. Sounds like one of those things that you just have to let go for your own sanity.

[Denisemomof4]

I agree you are one of the sweetest people on these boards!

 

How would you feel about Patrick reading this thread? I bet he hasn't even considered these things, about PTSD, needing time to adjust, all of the noise and action being too overwhelming...............

[LG Gone Wild]

. At that point, Scott got up in my face, pointed at me, and screamed, "F*ck you!" .

 

I just don't agree that your husband needs to do any apologizing at ALL. He used violence appropriately. It was ugly, it was scary but just.

 

:grouphug::grouphug: That was a truly awful day/party. I am sorry that it still lingers.

[Nakia]

I wouldn't expect a resolution until your husband accepts that he was out of line in his behavior as well. As long as you both blame the incident and the continuing resentment on your brother's "immaturity", I can't really blame him for wanting little to do with your family.

 

I'm wondering if you've read my posts in this thread. Not one time have I blamed Scott, entirely, for this. He is immature in a lot of ways, though he has seen a lot of bad stuff. I don't condone my behavior. I don't condone Patrick's, but I can't make him apologize. I can't make Scott apologize, and I, frankly, don't care if he ever apologizes to me. I just want him in our lives, if at all possible. Like someone said up thread, this is a man thing that Patrick and Scott are going to have to settle. All I can do is what I've been doing. Try to be understanding, love them both, and pray like crazy. I will reach out to Scott more, and I did ask Patrick to consider sitting down with Scott to talk.

[Aelwydd]

I keep clicking refresh to read your posts. I feel really broken for my brother tonight. I think God is using this to soften my anger/hurt/resentment towards him. That is anger/hurt/resentment I didn't really know I had until today when he didn't come to Emma's party.

 

I do think he could have PTSD. He was involved in an explosion, and he has lingering physical problems from that. He lost a friend there. Of course he must have PTSD. I wish we had postponed the party. Or had it earlier. Or something. But truly, we weren't expecting him home until May. His unit was able to come home after 10 months instead of 12. That doesn't really matter though; it happened.

 

This breaks my heart because I have "mild" PTSD from a horrible motorcycle wreck I saw two years ago. I get this. And I've been harboring ill feelings towards him. :'(

 

I'm not trying to excuse Scott's behavior, just as I don't excuse Patrick's or my own. But there are many layers to this.

 

I just sent him a text because I didn't feel like I could call. It was just a short one to let him know we love him and that we missed him today. I asked Patrick if he will sit and talk to Scott. He said, "I don't know." So...we'll see.

 

 

 

Every single thing in your post makes so much sense. Every word. Thank you. It is so helpful. Scott definitely has always had a short temper, but he had never said an ugly word or raised his voice to me, ever. Patrick reacted to the threat. I'm thankful he perceived it because I, like you said, didn't. I was too shocked, and I just remember thinking, in that split second, "Is he talking to me?"

 

Our family has unfortunately had experience coping with PTSD in a relative that served a year in Iraq. It's a difficult and heartbreaking situation, to see that damage, when they aren't really given any tools to recognize it or to cope with it.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself, Nakia. At least you are trying to understand what happened and work it out! You're a nurse and a healer by nature--I have faith in your compassion and ability to help heal this breach. :grouphug:

[Nakia]

I agree you are one of the sweetest people on these boards!

 

How would you feel about Patrick reading this thread? I bet he hasn't even considered these things, about PTSD, needing time to adjust, all of the noise and action being too overwhelming...............

 

Thank you.

 

We've actually talked about how hard it must have been for Scott to be thrust back into the "real world" so quickly. My middle brother is on his 3rd deployment, so this is not a new thing for our family. But, no, Patrick hasn't really considered PTSD; I'm sure of that. I think I will talk to him about that tomorrow.

[JeneralMom]

Is it possible that Scott is very hurt/insulted that Patrick could possibly think that he would ever hurt you? You have said that Scott has never been aggressive or verbally violent to you before. Perhaps, because he had been in combat so recently he did not and still does not, realize that there was something very aggressive in his manner that triggered Scott's protective instincts. So now, to him, here is a life-long friend/brother who thinks that he is capable of turning violent. Perhaps it made him doubt himself and his ability to maintain control.

 

Also, could Patrick's reaction have been more aggressive than usual because Scott had so recently been in a combat zone and Patrick was (and maybe still is) concerned that Scott cannot control his anger and may become violent with little provocation?

[catz]

See, I asked Patrick why in the world he slammed Scott against the wall like that. I'm telling you I have NEVER seen Patrick act that way. My middle brother and I have all but brawled, and Patrick has stayed out of it. Patrick told me that something clicked in him, and he felt like he had to protect me from Scott. He said he was honestly scared for me. I don't get it. It must be a guy thing. Or maybe it's kinda like "momma bear" or something. Patrick can't really explain it except that he just knew Scott could and would hurt me at that moment if he didn't intervene. Please know that I don't condone Patrick's behavior. But knowing him and knowing how out of character it was, I do believe him.

 

That's so hard! :grouphug: To me there's a world of difference between using words and using physical force. I could totally see getting into it with my own brother who sounds very much like yours and him firing off some choice words after a beer or 2 after I yelled at him. Incidents like that just feel like childhood regression to me since you yelled "shut up" first. I'm also really sympathetic to the fact that he was coming back from a deployment. I know another soldier who went through PTSD that colors my viewpoint. :crying:

 

I'm so sorry you're caught in the middle. :grouphug:

 

I guess I look at it through law enforcement eyes. What your brother did was wrong, what you did was wrong, but only what your husband did was illegal.

 

I guess I see it this way too. I don't doubt his instinct was to protect you.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'm wondering if you've read my posts in this thread. Not one time have I blamed Scott, entirely, for this. He is immature in a lot of ways, though he has seen a lot of bad stuff. I don't condone my behavior. I don't condone Patrick's, but I can't make him apologize. I can't make Scott apologize, and I, frankly, don't care if he ever apologizes to me. I just want him in our lives, if at all possible. Like someone said up thread, this is a man thing that Patrick and Scott are going to have to settle. All I can do is what I've been doing. Try to be understanding, love them both, and pray like crazy. I will reach out to Scott more, and I did ask Patrick to consider sitting down with Scott to talk.

 

I read your posts. You have minimized/ignored your husband's lack of maturity and repeatedly focused on your brother's. You can't reasonably expect this situation to go away. Your husband assaulted your brother, and this probably won't be resolved until he "grows up" a bit as well.