Brilliant Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 We noticed that our church doesn't publicize budget information or financial statements. When my dh asked for them, he was told that they don't give out that information. We've never attended a church with that lack of financial openness - we've always been able to see at least summary-level data. (aggregating salaries, for example). We are now puzzled and wondering what they are trying to hide. :( Do you know your church's financial condition? Would it bother you if you wanted to know and it was refused? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSNative Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yes, that would bug me. Our church prints it on the weekly bulletin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 They would get none of my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Peregrine Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 We have an annual meeting where it is handed out to everyone. It would bug me if the information was not shared when requested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 While I think that the finances should be open for anyone who wants to see them, I don't really like reading them in a bulletin. That's probably because I didn't grow up with it & ours now doesn't do that. However, I know that any time I want to, I can ask to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHowell Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If I felt there was some backdoor issues going on then yes. Otherwise I wouldn't notice/care. Our father here drives an Audi. For those who don't know our church/father, they would see his car and assume something was amiss. Those of us who are familiar know he just replaced a 25 year old car he bought new and drove until the wheels fell off. Also he comes from local, family money that he puts most of into the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Absolutely. I would not be a member of a church that didn't disclose finances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Um, yes, that would bother me more then a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
songbirdie Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Our salaries are listed along with the budget in quarterly church conferences. Our giving and year-to-date-budget-used is printed in the weekly bulletin. I would consider it a *huge* red flag if that information was not published for church members. I can see it not being given to visitors - but only until they were considering becoming members. They should have access to it before they decide on church membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Every church we've attended has had that information available. I would be very suspicious if a church kept it secret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca VA Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yes, it would bother me a great deal. At our members' meetings, we discuss financial issues openly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 My husband is the priest at our church. that information is available anytime. Also, the vestry meetings (governing body) are open. Anyone can attend. They talk money at those meetings a LOT!!! We also have an annual meeting where the entire budget is gone over with a fine tooth comb. So, yea. That would bug me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 They would get none of my money. This is what dh and I are talking about it...and wondering if we can even attend. I thought the original question we wanted answered was very reasonable - our church supports missionaries, but they ask members to contribute directly to the missionaries. So dh and I wondered if the church's budget includes any contributions to the missionaries. Now we'll never know. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thanks for all the responses so far. I'm feeling validated. :) I wondered if there was something wrong w/dh and me - that we aren't spiritual enough, not trusting our pastor's leadership, etc. My dh has pointed out to me 2Cor 19-21 which seems to apply here: 19 What is more, he was chosen by the churches to accompany us as we carry the offering, which we administer in order to honor the Lord himself and to show our eagerness to help. 20 We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift. 21 For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Are you official members of this church? Have you attended general meetings? Our church does not print offerings or budgets in the bulletin - and that would rub me the wrong way, because the only churches I've seen actually do that here had a 'you're all not giving enough so here's some guilt' vibe. If you are members and this information wasn't available at a members general meeting then I'd ask for a meeting with the pastor - maybe he will share it with you personally, not as a 'take-away' thing? If the pastor still says no then yes I'd be bothered. I'd probably speak to some deacon/elder, and if necessary a meeting with said deacon/elder, myself & pastor (and maybe another witness). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If they are a nonprofit they MUST, by law, provide their financials on request. I wouldn't take no for an answer or I'd leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Are you official members of this church? Have you attended general meetings? Our denomination doesn't have "membership". Our church also doesn't congregational meetings. When my dh made his request, he explained that we have been regular attenders/contributors for 4 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Every church we've attended has had that information available. I would be very suspicious if a church kept it secret. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Our denomination doesn't have "membership". Our church also doesn't congregational meetings. When my dh made his request, he explained that we have been regular attenders/contributors for 4 years. My group doesn't have membership and many of us don't live in areas with congregational meetings but we can still see the finances if we ask; none of it is secret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If they are a nonprofit they MUST, by law, provide their financials on request. I wouldn't take no for an answer or I'd leave. That was my understanding as well. I thought all churches had to have open books for their tax status. Does membership matter? Will they only allow it to actual members? IDK, it's never been an issue at our churches, it was all very publicly handled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Big honking red flags! I would be very suspicious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Here is some info about IRS status and disclosure: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p557.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 The only possible positive spin I could put on this is if somehow they misunderstood and thought that you were asking to see what other members in the congregation contributed to the church or to missionaries - ie. by name, not as a lump figure. That would be against policy in most places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustybug Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yes, that would bug me. Our church prints it on the weekly bulletin. Same here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yes, I would think of that as a huge red flag. At our church, the proposed budget is mailed to every member of the congregation each year. It includes the previous year's budgeted and actual spending, and a proposal for the upcoming year. The congregation has a chance to discuss it at a budget meeting with the board, and then votes on it at the annual meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 We absolutely know, and so does the public, if they want to. I'd be leaving if they wouldn't divulge that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Absolutely. I would not be a member of a church that didn't disclose finances. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAVampireLvr Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 yeah it would bug me. We are a very small church and pretty much know where every dime goes. We're in a building program right now and we've been kept in the loop every step of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine.more Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 That would be strange. Everyone knows our salary, and as much as I don't like it, I understand and totally respect the need for transparency. And DH's church now is a pretty big one too (for Lutherans), yet if anyone was curious about where the budget is going they could easily get that information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrissiK Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 That would bother me. Once a year we have an all church budget meeting (It's next Sunday) and there is an itemized budget that is passed out to each congregant and it is discussed. If the church wasn't open with how they spend the $$ I'd wonder what they were trying to hide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Not OK. I wouldn't be able to attend such a church in good conscience. Our church has quarterly business meetings where all financials are laid-out for all to see - members or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 We have an annual meeting where it is handed out to everyone. It would bug me if the information was not shared when requested. :iagree: This has been our experience in the past with the churches we've attended or worked for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 This would bother me a great deal. It might even be a deal-breaker that would cause me to evaluate whether or not I could stay at the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 We are having our annual meeting next week. Yes, we will see the outlines of the budget so yes, we will see how much our church sends to our missionaries. Every church I have ever belonged to or been involved with had this kind of policy. Full accounting and letting members approve budgets. Even when we were attending a base chapel, we had full accounting of the chapel contributions. Anyone could look at them. I would be very suspicious, particularly as you are asking about how much the church contirbutes to the missionaries. That the leader or leadership want to hide that from you makes me think something is amiss. Not only was that kind of thing listed in the annual budget but a number of churches we have attended had special displays or inserts about how we are funding various missionaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, that would bug me. Our church prints it on the weekly bulletin. same here. every week the bulletin say what the weekly budget is and what the current giving is (which the giving usually exceeds the budget). the fact that it isn't printed isn't that weird to me, but when you asked for it and were denied -- that would bug me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisIsTheDay Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 No, if I had no reason to distrust the leadership, it would not bother me. We were a part of two (affiliated) churches that did not offer such information freely. I don't know what happened when members asked; we never did. We currently attend a different denomination church now, but we are not members. I am guessing the members have more access to information. Although we give, I don't feel the need personally for the church to be financially accountable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 We noticed that our church doesn't publicize budget information or financial statements. When my dh asked for them, he was told that they don't give out that information. We've never attended a church with that lack of financial openness - we've always been able to see at least summary-level data. (aggregating salaries, for example). We are now puzzled and wondering what they are trying to hide. :( Do you know your church's financial condition? Would it bother you if you wanted to know and it was refused? That is typically information that is available, at least to members, if not everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelbe5 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, that would bother me. Our church makes the annual report available in two weeks at a Congregational Meeting. Plus, from what I remember from my fundraising days, if your Church claims non-profit, 501c3 status, they are required by law to make their $ information public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Our denomination doesn't have "membership". Our church also doesn't congregational meetings. When my dh made his request, he explained that we have been regular attenders/contributors for 4 years. hmm, ok. Maybe they've just never had anyone request it before & don't have records readily available? I don't know, a flat out refusal to understand my concerns and work with me would bother me immensley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Do you know your church's financial condition? Would it bother you if you wanted to know and it was refused? yes it would concern me. before deciding they don't know what they're doing financially, is there any circumstance where they do release their financial records? if they refuse to release them at least once (like around tax time when they have to do the records anyway), I'd be looking for a new church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynyel Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Most certainly it would bug me. To no end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Absolutely that would bother me. Not only does our church have wide open financial information, but they allow the congregation to vote and plan on major expenses. Our church is planning a major renovation and the planning phases are taking a long time, but it will be worth it. We attend a UU church for the record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewellsmommy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, I would find that odd. But, we come from a Southern Baptist church where we vote to approve the budget every year. If you walked up to our pastor and asked to see the state of finances, he would show them to you. In fact, I would take a snack with me because he'll keep you there a while showing where we could be stronger and on and on and on. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 HUGE Red Flags for me!!! This would lead me to worship elsewhere if I could not persuade them to change their policy. As others have stated, our church has an annual meeting in which detailed budget information is presented and all questions are answered. In addition, I can approach the elder board at any time to ask financial questions. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 ...from what I remember from my fundraising days, if your Church claims non-profit, 501c3 status, they are required by law to make their $ information public. We thought so, too. But it turns out churches are exempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 We have an annual meeting where everyone is given the financial report - expected expenses, actual expenses, expected income, actual income, etc. We don't have any idea what any individual parishioner is giving and nor should we, but we do know the overall income, as well as the sources, and we see it broken down specifically where it is spent. During the rest of the year, copies of the report are pinned on a public area bulletin board where anyone can take a copy - member for 20 years or new this Sunday. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higginszoo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Yes. It would bother me. Agreed that individual contributions should be kept private (listed as a lump sum), but where the money comes in and where it goes out (again, I don't necessarily need to know what individual employees make, a general 'payroll' category is sufficient IMO) should be available if members want to see, otherwise, they shouldn't be in any way pressured to contribute. Edited January 23, 2012 by higginszoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I just ran this question by my husband, who is our congregational president and used to be the treasurer. He says that churches are presumed to have 501c3 status whether or not they release financial reports. However, they run the risk of losing the tax-exempt status if there are financial irregularities, or if an insufficiently large percentage of their spending is dedicated towards religious expenses. He also points out that a failure to release religious records leaves you open to accusations of fraud, which then lead to the state police rummaging through your church's business. Edited January 23, 2012 by Rivka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsheresomewhere Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 It would make me very suspicious. How would you know where the money was going? Who would know if they were helping the pastor pay for his porn collection and his "weekly" visitations. That was one interesting meeting when the pastor suddenly resigned and the budget committee started reading what he submitted to be repaid for . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, it would bother me. We get a financial report every 3 months with what was taken in, where it was spent, how that compares to the budget, the bank balances, etc. Then once a year we vote on a budget. We do know salaries, how much each missionary family gets, down to how much was spent on kitchen supplies or flowers for the sick. The only area we don't have details of is the benevolent fund (or Deacon's fund). That is a separate fund that people usually give to once a month after communion that is used to privately help members/attenders and sometimes those in the area with special financial needs--such as a medical bill, utility bill, groceries, car repair, counseling fees, etc. If we asked we could know what was taken in and what was given out and general categoires but not which family got x amount for a rent payment or that so and so got $200 for a car repair, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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