CAMom Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, that would bother me and would be something we would strongly consider leaving a church over. My dh is an elder in our church and just spent 5 hours the other night at a budget meeting. He will have a second meeting this Tuesday. Once it's all ironed out, it will be presented to the congregation for approval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celia Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yep, that would bother me a whole lot. We have an evening meeting at least semi-annually where everyone is given a detailed copy of the financial papers and they are discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth in MN Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Uh, I'd grab my wallet and run away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The only area we don't have details of is the benevolent fund (or Deacon's fund). That is a separate fund that people usually give to once a month after communion that is used to privately help members/attenders and sometimes those in the area with special financial needs--such as a medical bill, utility bill, groceries, car repair, counseling fees, etc. If we asked we could know what was taken in and what was given out and general categoires but not which family got x amount for a rent payment or that so and so got $200 for a car repair, etc. Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that we have something like this too. At our church it's called the "Minister's Discretionary Fund." The budget specifies the amount that goes to the fund, and the minister can give it out as he pleases to people in need - members, street people who knock on the church door, etc. I don't think any records are kept of who gets it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runmiarun Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If they are a nonprofit they MUST, by law, provide their financials on request. I wouldn't take no for an answer or I'd leave. Absolutely! Make sure to put your request in writing and with a "due date". Our former church didn't share financials publicly except once a year at the church's annual meeting. However, they would provide any financial information you requested as long as you did it in writing so everybody had documentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 We noticed that our church doesn't publicize budget information or financial statements. When my dh asked for them, he was told that they don't give out that information. This would be a HUGE red flag to me if I was a member of that church and contributed money for its ministres and programs, and I would be looking for another church. Financial accountability is very important. Money could be going to support projects that the members are not in favor of, or worse yet, into the pockets of those who are supposed to be in charge of it. That kind of thing has happened to more than one church in this area. In one large, high profile church in a nearby city, the pastor was actually convicted of embezzlement and went to prison for several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Have you checked your state laws ? I can't imagine a church that doesn't show it's books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holly IN Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 We noticed that our church doesn't publicize budget information or financial statements. When my dh asked for them, he was told that they don't give out that information. Do you know your church's financial condition? Would it bother you if you wanted to know and it was refused? By law, they are supposed to provide that information to anybody!! We know our church's financial condition. We have the very basics though that they publish in every Sunday's bulletin or itenery schedule that they pass out. Basically just says what last Sunday's offering was and the budget need. To show you if they are ahead or behind budget. If you want more details they will give it to you by personal request made to the office staff during Monday to Friday business hours. Yes it would bother me if they refuse. I would turn them in to the state for violation of the law. Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Financial donation totals are printed weekly in the bulletin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendi Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 It would absolutely bother me. I have never attended a church that didn't share its financial information with members (usually at an annual meeting). Wendi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 yes, it would bother me. It would make me feel like they were doing it because they had to hide something. Dh was the leader of the finance team at a few churches we went to. I don't think he'd support not telling the members/congregation where their tithes were going. It's not right IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Organizations that solicit donations must have transparency of charter and financial records for tax, legal and moral reasons. I would not attend and I would tell them why. I might report it to the IRS or the Secretary of State (they have a charitable solicitations department) depending on the circumstances. For a non-profit, you need to furnish that information on request to ANYONE, not just members or deacons or leadership. Edited January 23, 2012 by kijipt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myeightkiddies Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm assuming the church is a non-profit corporation. If they aren't sharing, someone is stealing. Personally, if I had financially contributed to such a church, I would be in the office asking to see the records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigger Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 We noticed that our church doesn't publicize budget information or financial statements. When my dh asked for them, he was told that they don't give out that information. We've never attended a church with that lack of financial openness - we've always been able to see at least summary-level data. (aggregating salaries, for example). We are now puzzled and wondering what they are trying to hide. :( Do you know your church's financial condition? Would it bother you if you wanted to know and it was refused? 501©3 charities, which a church would be, are public record for financial information. If the church isn't releasing their financial records upon request that is a) in violation of most state laws since most require the availability of records for inspection and copying by the general public as part of the law for those granted tax exempt status and b) silly since you can look it up yourself anyway on GuideStar.org! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If they aren't sharing, someone is stealing. That would be my concern, as well, and if they won't share the records with you, then I would report them to the authorities, who won't take, "we don't give out that information" for an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hen Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) yeah, that would bother me, and the bothering would go up a notch after asking and being refused. Once a year, our church takes most of the service to have a business meeting and lay out all the numbers, with all of us there. I find it really boring (though eye-opening at the same time, it's enlightening to see how much purchasing new buildings cost!) but my respect for the church went way up, after my first experience with this type of meeting. I like that they try to be open and above board with all the financial matters. the not sharing it publicly wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker for me, but being rebuffed after asking privately, I think that would be a game changer for us. Edited January 23, 2012 by Hen Jen spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, it would bother me. I've never joined a church that didn't give copies of the budget to church members on a regular basis. Basic stuff is listed out - how much was given, where it was designated, where it was spent, how much is left under each line item. I could understand if your dh wasn't a member of the church and was denied knowledge of the budget. But, if he is a member...yeah, "bother" isn't the correct word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsie Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 501©3 charities, which a church would be, are public record for financial information. If the church isn't releasing their financial records upon request that is a) in violation of most state laws since most require the availability of records for inspection and copying by the general public as part of the law for those granted tax exempt status and b) silly since you can look it up yourself anyway on GuideStar.org! Churches are exempt from some of the IRS filing requirements of other 501©3 charities. So, you may not be able to get the information. If the church is part of a denomination, many denominations will have requirements for financial transparency. It would definitely be a red flag for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Ah, Ha. Ah ha ha. Um, yeah. That would be a no go for me. That ministry would not get another cent of my money. The ministries dh and I give to are completely open about their finances, down to what the brother 'heading up' the ministry is paid. And if we give to private individuals, we either know them well, or feel the Lord leading us to give to them for a specific reason. Indeed, I'd more than *wonder* what your church is covering up; I'd assume they're hiding something, otherwise they'd be happy to give out that info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fhjmom Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 This is what dh and I are talking about it...and wondering if we can even attend. I thought the original question we wanted answered was very reasonable - our church supports missionaries, but they ask members to contribute directly to the missionaries. So dh and I wondered if the church's budget includes any contributions to the missionaries. Now we'll never know. :( I would be very concerned about the lack of transparency in financial issues. Our church lists weekly and year-to-date giving and budget in the bulletin, as well as gives a lengthy report from the finance committee at quarterly church business meetings. Specific information is available at any time froe the finance office, although our church does not disclose specific salaries. They do report the total personnel budget. The statement above also concerns me; however, in that depending on how designated gifts to specific missionaries are handled, they may not be following the guidelines for tax-deductible donations according to the IRS. It may be fine, but this is one of those areas I would want to be sure I knew very clearly how things were being handled for my own tax purposes as well as the stewardship practices of the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigger Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Churches are exempt from some of the IRS filing requirements of other 501©3 charities. So, you may not be able to get the information. If the church is part of a denomination, many denominations will have requirements for financial transparency. It would definitely be a red flag for me. Gotta love WTM forums....learn something new everyday! Thanks, I didn't know that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennsmile Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I am LDS. We don't post the info in weekly bulletins. I know that they have it and there are yearly audits. Once a year they do a yearly audit of the whole church and we are told that things are on the up and up but we are never given amounts. We don't have salaried positions (except perhaps some living allowances for General Authorities but those aren't huge.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 It would bother me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, it would bother me. Our church doesn't post it weekly but we have an annual meeting where the yearly budget is presented in agonizingly detailed form. :) And I'm sure that the information could be accessed at anytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I would leave the church, and seriously consider reporting it to someone - my assumption would be there was financial hanky-pankey going on. My church has a budget which is passed at the general meeting and the last years transactions are covered there as well. The parish council, which is elected, approves outlays and goes over finances in detail every month. We have a brief update as to where we are compared to budget in the bulletin on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yep, that would send all kinds of red flags up for us. Our church publishes general monthly and YTD info every week and any member can see the whole budget for the asking, though salaries are an aggregate figure as a pp mentioned. All the church officers and staff see the budget in the process of developing it each year and that itself is a good number of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Ninja Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I am another one who says this raises a big red flag. While there may be nothing wrong at all, their refusal to let you see the budget or financial records raises questions of the possibility of impropriety. One would think your church would want to be above reproach in financial matters. My church does not publish the weekly or monthly giving or budget in a church bulletin, but the financial records are available to anyone who asks to see them. Everything is open. There is nothing hidden except names of individuals and the amount they each give, and I don't think they give the names of individuals in need who are given aid. That's fine with me because I want to respect privacy. I don't need to know that information. But the budget is open and available with the total dollar amounts received and spent each month. I can see how much money has been donated to the general fund and what expenses are paid from that fund. I can see how much money has been given for missions and how much money the church has sent to missions. This is basic financial accountability, and it is not out of line to ask to see it. What I would do: I would stop giving money until I have answers. I want to be wise with my finances, and that means being confident that money I donate is going to be used wisely to the best of my knowledge. You can resume giving/tithing once you have your answers. I would be putting my request for information in writing. I would let the church know that you are not asking for private information, like how much individual members give each month or names of people who have been given aid money, but you do want to see the budget with totals of income and expenses in each category, including missions, and the last few months' financial statements. I would also be clear that I am not accusing the church of anything improper, but I am seeking an answer to a question and am doing due diligence because I want to be responsible with my finances, including my giving. If the church refused to let me see the financial records, I would probably leave. I wouldn't want to be part of a church that hides information because I would not be able to trust the leadership. Good luck. I hope your church has simply misunderstood your request for information and will be willing to let you see the financial records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If they are a nonprofit they MUST, by law, provide their financials on request. I wouldn't take no for an answer or I'd leave. By law, they are supposed to provide that information to anybody!! We know our church's financial condition. We have the very basics though that they publish in every Sunday's bulletin or itenery schedule that they pass out. Basically just says what last Sunday's offering was and the budget need. To show you if they are ahead or behind budget. If you want more details they will give it to you by personal request made to the office staff during Monday to Friday business hours. Yes it would bother me if they refuse. I would turn them in to the state for violation of the law. Holly Organizations that solicit donations must have transparency of charter and financial records for tax, legal and moral reasons. I would not attend and I would tell them why. I might report it to the IRS or the Secretary of State (they have a charitable solicitations department) depending on the circumstances. For a non-profit, you need to furnish that information on request to ANYONE, not just members or deacons or leadership. I'm assuming the church is a non-profit corporation. If they aren't sharing, someone is stealing. Personally, if I had financially contributed to such a church, I would be in the office asking to see the records. 501©3 charities, which a church would be, are public record for financial information. If the church isn't releasing their financial records upon request that is a) in violation of most state laws since most require the availability of records for inspection and copying by the general public as part of the law for those granted tax exempt status and b) silly since you can look it up yourself anyway on GuideStar.org! Churches are exempt from some of the IRS filing requirements of other 501©3 charities. So, you may not be able to get the information. If the church is part of a denomination, many denominations will have requirements for financial transparency. It would definitely be a red flag for me. Churches are not required to report their budgets or other information publicly. Here's a link quoting ECFA an accounting accountability group for Christian charities and churches on the point: http://www.qual990.org/not_file.html http://clergytaxes.com/church.htm#5 You'll notice ECFA encourages being public about the budget, and I'd guess they would not accept an organization that wasn't open with this information. However, as a recently retired nonprofit board member, what most charities are required to report is not the budget but the 990. The best way to get a sense of what that is is to look at some over at: http://www2.guidestar.org/Home.aspx You will not see every one's salary just the salary of anyone on the board (usually the Executive Director) and maybe anyone making over a certain amount. As others have said there are areas of the budget of a church that should be not disclosed in detail such as donations to folks who work in closed countries. Overall, however, it is troubling that there is no budget available at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I really have no idea if that is regularly available to just anyone who walks in the door at our church. But I know it is available to members... We definitely don't print it in the bulletin. That's weird... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty in Pink Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I would not attend a church that refused to disclose financial information to its members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, it would bother me. It would bother me on a stand-alone basis, but it would also be a red flag for me in terms of church culture (power, hierarchy, spiritual abuse issues). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I think it's critical that a church is transparent with its finances. That would be a reason I would leave a church. It's not just about finances, but about accountability of the leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I am LDS. We don't post the info in weekly bulletins. I know that they have it and there are yearly audits. Once a year they do a yearly audit of the whole church and we are told that things are on the up and up but we are never given amounts. We don't have salaried positions (except perhaps some living allowances for General Authorities but those aren't huge.) I'm not LDS, but I think that if this is the case, I'd want to know the name of the firm that does the audits and would be far more comfortable if that firm was not headed by a member of the church. I'd then be able to find out how reputable the auditing firm was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) I'm not LDS, but I think that if this is the case, I'd want to know the name of the firm that does the audits and would be far more comfortable if that firm was not headed by a member of the church. I'd then be able to find out how reputable the auditing firm was. I'm a little confused by how you worded this. Are you saying that an auditing firm headed by a member of the church couldn't possibly be reputable? Or that it would not be possible to find out how reputable an auditing firm was if it were headed by a member of the church? Or are you only suggesting that there might be a conflict of interest? ETA: The church has a pretty strict internal system for handling and auditing finances. For example, at a local level, at least two leaders must be present when contribution envelopes are opened and the contents counted and recorded (with the stipulation that they must both be actively engaged in the process; one working on the donations and the other doing something else in the same room is not ok), and at least two leaders (not necessarily the same ones) must sign to approve expenses and issue checks. It's been a while since dh was involved in that side of things, but I remember there also being a requirement that there be a second witness when the money was deposited at the bank. The people who handle the money take it very seriously. Once a year church members meet individually with the bishop to check to make sure their records of their contributions match the church records--a sort of "audit" as to whether their personal contributions have been deposited appropriately. Twice a year (if I remember correctly) auditors from the stake will audit each ward's records. And twice a year the church's internal auditing department, which is independent of all other church departments and reports directly to the First Presidency, audits all the church financial records. Budget-wise, the money is collected at church headquarters, and each ward gets back a budgetary amount based on the number of people in the ward (I've heard what the per-person amount is, but I've forgotten, and it's probably changed since then anyway). I like this arrangement because it means that wards in wealthier areas help subsidize wards in less affluent areas, so every ward has what they need. Any excess funds get channelled into other church projects such as building construction and maintenance where new buildings are needed and whatnot. The money budgeted to the wards is divvied up by the bishop and the ward council to each of the organizations within the ward (the youth organizations get a lot of it), and the leaders for each organization decide how best to use the funds. I'm glad the church keeps contributions private and doesn't publish them, and I'm content that the funds I contribute are handled in a responsible manner. Some people might prefer a detailed line-item "receipt" for where "their" money goes, but for me, a basic understanding of the safeguards put in place in the handling of church finances is sufficient. Edited January 29, 2012 by MamaSheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda in TX Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 We noticed that our church doesn't publicize budget information or financial statements. When my dh asked for them, he was told that they don't give out that information. We've never attended a church with that lack of financial openness - we've always been able to see at least summary-level data. (aggregating salaries, for example). We are now puzzled and wondering what they are trying to hide. :( Do you know your church's financial condition? Would it bother you if you wanted to know and it was refused? I couldn't attend a church that did not disclose the budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennsmile Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I'm a little confused by how you worded this. Are you saying that an auditing firm headed by a member of the church couldn't possibly be reputable? Or that it would not be possible to find out how reputable an auditing firm was if it were headed by a member of the church? Or are you only suggesting that there might be a conflict of interest? ETA: The church has a pretty strict internal system for handling and auditing finances. For example, at a local level, at least two leaders must be present when contribution envelopes are opened and the contents counted and recorded (with the stipulation that they must both be actively engaged in the process; one working on the donations and the other doing something else in the same room is not ok), and at least two leaders (not necessarily the same ones) must sign to approve expenses and issue checks. It's been a while since dh was involved in that side of things, but I remember there also being a requirement that there be a second witness when the money was deposited at the bank. The people who handle the money take it very seriously. Once a year church members meet individually with the bishop to check to make sure their records of their contributions match the church records--a sort of "audit" as to whether their personal contributions have been deposited appropriately. Twice a year (if I remember correctly) auditors from the stake will audit each ward's records. And twice a year the church's internal auditing department, which is independent of all other church departments and reports directly to the First Presidency, audits all the church financial records. Budget-wise, the money is collected at church headquarters, and each ward gets back a budgetary amount based on the number of people in the ward (I've heard what the per-person amount is, but I've forgotten, and it's probably changed since then anyway). I like this arrangement because it means that wards in wealthier areas help subsidize wards in less affluent areas, so every ward has what they need. Any excess funds get channelled into other church projects such as building construction and maintenance where new buildings are needed and whatnot. The money budgeted to the wards is divvied up by the bishop and the ward council to each of the organizations within the ward (the youth organizations get a lot of it), and the leaders for each organization decide how best to use the funds. I'm glad the church keeps contributions private and doesn't publish them, and I'm content that the funds I contribute are handled in a responsible manner. Some people might prefer a detailed line-item "receipt" for where "their" money goes, but for me, a basic understanding of the safeguards put in place in the handling of church finances is sufficient. :iagree: But here is the information you wanted. That outlines which outside auditor they use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm a little confused by how you worded this. Are you saying that an auditing firm headed by a member of the church couldn't possibly be reputable? Or that it would not be possible to find out how reputable an auditing firm was if it were headed by a member of the church? Or are you only suggesting that there might be a conflict of interest?. I'm only suggesting that there might be a conflict of interest, and apologize for not being clear. Personally, I like knowing that I can ask to see them any time I want to, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilacii Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If told, "We don't give out that information..." inquire as to why. Is it that someone is hiding something? are they too lazy to make this available? do they honestly feel that it is not your business to know? I do not understand- Should this not be public information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I'm only suggesting that there might be a conflict of interest, and apologize for not being clear. Personally, I like knowing that I can ask to see them any time I want to, though. Thanks for clearing that up. I was hoping that was all you meant, but the way it was worded made me wonder. :) I can see why you might see conflict of interest as a concern. On the other hand I can also envision a church member being extra vigilant watching for financial misconduct because he would want to know his donations were being handled appropriately too. I don't think I'd prejudge the auditor's liklihood of being honest based only on his religious affiliation. It kind of seems like I'd be guilty of discrimination if I refused to hire an auditing firm based only on the religious affiliation of the guy in charge. But that's me. As far as being able to see records any time I ask, I guess I feel like once I spend money, or give money away it's not mine anymore and I don't think whoever has it next has a responsibility to report to me about how they're using it. I wouldn't ask a family member to show me their financial records just because I sent them money as a birthday gift, for example, or demand that my electric company show me their books. I would certainly not do business with a credit union with a policy that any member could examine all their financial records at any time, mine included. I guess I view gifts to the church in a similar vein--if they're gifts the recipient can use the money at their own discretion, and if there are records of giving they should be kept confidential. Of course, if I thought anything shady or underhanded was going on I would report it to the appropriate authorities, and I wouldn't give to a church I thought misused contributions. But I would not be comfortable giving to a church where anyone could go in and examine the records any time they wanted. I do like that my church has general information available as to how contributions are processed and the safeguards in place to ensure that the funds are used as intended, and I like that the church is public about the kinds of things the funding is being used for, but I also like that they protect the confidentiality of contributors. It's interesting how people see things so differently. Thanks for sharing your perspective, and for clarifying what you'd said earlier. :) Edited February 1, 2012 by MamaSheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't think anyone is saying g they should see who gave what to the church or who received benevolent funds. Im not sure why it isn't appropriate to see how much the church is spending on missions, general maintenance, CE materials, etc. How else would one know if the church was misusing funds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Thanks for clearing that up. I was hoping that was all you meant, but the way it was worded made me wonder. :) I can see why you might see conflict of interest as a concern. On the other hand I can also envision a church member being extra vigilant watching for financial misconduct because he would want to know his donations were being handled appropriately too. I don't think I'd prejudge the auditor's liklihood of being honest based only on his religious affiliation. It kind of seems like I'd be guilty of discrimination if I refused to hire an auditing firm based only on the religious affiliation of the guy in charge. But that's me. As far as being able to see records any time I ask, I guess I feel like once I spend money, or give money away it's not mine anymore and I don't think whoever has it next has a responsibility to report to me about how they're using it. I wouldn't ask a family member to show me their financial records just because I sent them money as a birthday gift, for example, or demand that my electric company show me their books. I would certainly not do business with a credit union with a policy that any member could examine all their financial records at any time, mine included. I guess I view gifts to the church in a similar vein--if they're gifts the recipient can use the money at their own discretion, and if there are records of giving they should be kept confidential. Of course, if I thought anything shady or underhanded was going on I would report it to the appropriate authorities, and I wouldn't give to a church I thought misused contributions. But I would not be comfortable giving to a church where anyone could go in and examine the records any time they wanted. I do like that my church has general information available as to how contributions are processed and the safeguards in place to ensure that the funds are used as intended, and I like that the church is public about the kinds of things the funding is being used for, but I also like that they protect the confidentiality of contributors. It's interesting how people see things so differently. Thanks for sharing your perspective, and for clarifying what you'd said earlier. :) Thanks, and I find this interesting as well.. When I donate money to any kind of a charity I do like to know how the money is spent. I've lived long enough to see enough things and to have been hurt by a church that started off as wonderful. I do trust people often, but I also know that people aren't perfect. I see the Church first and foremost as the body of Christ and those who handle donations as stewards of money that belongs to everyone, so therefore I feel that there is an accountability. As for other charities, I check to see what percentage of what I give goes to the actual giving & what is required for administration. Naturally there are administrative charges, but I want that to be minimal & not to be paying large salaries--personal preference. I also want it going only to causes that I support, so if there is more than one cause, I like the option to choose which one that charity is going to give their money to. For eg, dh and I like to give some money to help rebuild homes in the US after disasters. There is more than one organization out there that does a good job of this, but we chose MDS because over 90 percent of our donation goes to the building of the houses & if we want to, we can choose which disaster we want to help fund (or just to wherever it's needed most.) We aren't Mennonite, although my dad grew up Mennonite, which is how I first heard about it. However, if I want to donate to the Boys & Girls Club, for eg, I'd do it directly to them rather than to the United Way which also supports the B&G Club because I don't support all of the United Way's causes and their adminstrative portion is larger than I prefer to support. We also avoid giving to charities that constantly send money or gifts to get us to donate, such as some of the veteran's charities. We like to support veteran charities, just not ones that spend so much trying to bribe (in our opinion) us to give. OTOH, I don't mind buying something where the procedes go to a charity I support if that's it and I send the money first rather than have them send it to me asking for money. This is a great discussion, because it's been good to see how other people think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Thanks for clearing that up. I was hoping that was all you meant, but the way it was worded made me wonder. :) I can see why you might see conflict of interest as a concern. On the other hand I can also envision a church member being extra vigilant watching for financial misconduct because he would want to know his donations were being handled appropriately too. I don't think I'd prejudge the auditor's liklihood of being honest based only on his religious affiliation. It kind of seems like I'd be guilty of discrimination if I refused to hire an auditing firm based only on the religious affiliation of the guy in charge. But that's me. As far as being able to see records any time I ask, I guess I feel like once I spend money, or give money away it's not mine anymore and I don't think whoever has it next has a responsibility to report to me about how they're using it. I wouldn't ask a family member to show me their financial records just because I sent them money as a birthday gift, for example, or demand that my electric company show me their books. I would certainly not do business with a credit union with a policy that any member could examine all their financial records at any time, mine included. I guess I view gifts to the church in a similar vein--if they're gifts the recipient can use the money at their own discretion, and if there are records of giving they should be kept confidential. Of course, if I thought anything shady or underhanded was going on I would report it to the appropriate authorities, and I wouldn't give to a church I thought misused contributions. But I would not be comfortable giving to a church where anyone could go in and examine the records any time they wanted. I do like that my church has general information available as to how contributions are processed and the safeguards in place to ensure that the funds are used as intended, and I like that the church is public about the kinds of things the funding is being used for, but I also like that they protect the confidentiality of contributors. It's interesting how people see things so differently. Thanks for sharing your perspective, and for clarifying what you'd said earlier. :) I would be very surprised if an organization could keep its tax-exempt status if a company owned by a member of the organization did the auditing. It's a classic conflict of interest. Stating that something is a conflict of interest doesn't mean the party isn't honest; it means that the arrangement is not in line with generally accepted ethical standards for keeping everything on the up and up. Stating something is a conflict of interest isn't passing judgment: it's just an acknowledgement that there are potentially conflicting loyalties in operation. When there are divided loyalties or one party has something over another, the public cannot be certain that everything is on the up and up. Someone could have a conflict of interest and be very fair about it--it's the believability of the result that is partially at issue as well as removing the temptation of the conflicting loyalties, even if that is on the unconscious level. It's just not done. It's why justices recuse themselves from certain cases, why politicians have to put their assets in blind funds, etc. A conflict of interest undermines the public trust in the legitimacy of the findings. Edited February 2, 2012 by Laurie4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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