19 yo doesn’t think he needs to help around the house this summer

[MEmama]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

And you don’t work right? I think that makes a difference too. 

I do. 

[TechWife]

23 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

If he's living there, it's also his household, even if only temporarily.

Even my toddlers had a "household" that they are part of and can pick up toys.

A 19yo who enjoys household comforts should have an attitude of contribution, not just consumption.

But at 19yo, a child has already essentially been parented. They are still malleable but if they don't feel positive about being a contributing member of a household (esp while living rent free) I don't know that you can make them do so.  I mean if they aren't members of the household, what would he be classified as? A tenent? A roommate? Either of those situations and he and would be paying rent and handling all his own stuff independently. He would have his own household to maintain. but I doubt that's what the OP's DS is going for.

I didn’t say he shouldn’t take care of his own living area, did I? This specifically addresses expecting an adult to do something that someone else ordinarily does. It is not his household. A household is centered on a house & involves financial, maintenance and logistical decisions that are the responsibility of the homeowner. He is in a family, which is centered on people.

Toddlers aren’t adults and teaching skills & responsibility is an adult’s job, the chores are the tool that adults can use to do this with a toddler. As far as attitude, I agree, ideally an adult willingly contributes to family life. But if they don’t, what exactly, are you going to do? Is it fair to have expectations of another adult without discussing it previously so that everyone is on the same page? It sounds like both the student home for summer break and the parents both have expectations that haven’t been communicated to each other. Getting mad doesn’t solve the problem. If I think I’m entitled to have another adult do something, then I need to make my case, whatever it may be. If demonstrating respect, alleviating stress and workload for others is part of the rationale, that’s fine, but talk about it because everyone experiences stress and scheduling issues and not everyone has the same capacity to do so or handles it the same way. 

[Lecka]

Oh, my goodness.  My 19yo son started with this when he was about 12.  
 

I am so thankful he is living with my parents.  They get along much better and he is honestly helpful to them.  He is honestly a contributor in their home.  He is always polite to them.  If he wants to do something at a different time or in a different way, apparently he goes about bringing this up in a polite way.  
 

Here he really had a resentful attitude and it was very hard to deal with.  
 

I have changed my relationship with him to where it is more of an adult relationship, and I don’t think we would do well if he was living here right now.  He wants to be treated like an adult and apparently he does feel like my parents treat him like an adult, but I feel like in my role I could do the exact same thing they do, and he would think I was treating him in a childish way and be resentful of me.  Basically I do not ask him to do chores and he doesn’t live here!  We did ask him to help move a bed to our house recently, which he did graciously, which was really nice, but I’m not pushing my luck.

 

In the meantime he recently came home from work and mowed the lawn for my parents because my mom asked him, and she thought it was going to rain.  I can honestly say I don’t think he ever mowed the lawn here without complaints and attitude.  
 

My parents’ friends also think he is polite and well-mannered, and a few times someone has said “he must have been so helpful to have around in high school,” and I say “no, not really,” and they are so surprised.  But he’s helpful to my parents so that is the main thing.  

[freesia]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

His job situation and/or willingness to help doesn’t have anything to do with it. It’s our responsibility to maintain our household, not his. 

???? Isn’t if his household, too, if he uses the space. Just walking in the shared part of the house creates dirt that someone had to mop or vacuum and use of the kitchen means he contributes to the need to a deep clean regularly?  You may chose to do this for him, but I don’t understand how it’s not his household and why he shouldn’t, as an adult, be part of upkeep or paying for upkeep like any adult. 

[Catwoman]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

I would expect him to contribute to normal daily chores. However,  I wouldn't create a 3 hour task list ( I don't spend 3 hours a day on housework myself) and I would not assign him extra "projects". I can see how he would balk at this and feel used.

I believe in the value of unstructured time. I work 9 months and am not employed during summers, and I relish time with nothing planned. I don't think this is necessarily negative and time must be filled with work. However, every household member should contribute to the daily tasks involved in living.

Eta: I agree with pp that predictability is important. As a teen, I hated being asked to do something right away and always wanted to have notice of the tasks. So, maybe he can be responsible for litter boxes, but isn't micromanaged when he does them.

 

 

I can't even imagine what I would ask someone to do around the house that would take 3 hours a day, either! It sounds punitive and resentful to me, and I can understand why her son was so resistant.

Her son goes to college all year, and I would be more than happy to let him have his summer off. He will only be a carefree college kid for a short time, and then he will have all of the normal adult work responsibilities. I don't really view college kids as "adults" the same way many people on this forum do. I feel like they are only young once, so they might as well enjoy it.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think it's a big deal to ask her son to help out with regular things like cleaning the litter box or whatever, but 3 hours a day? That just seems like a power play on Mom's part. 

[TechWife]

3 minutes ago, freesia said:

???? Isn’t if his household, too, if he uses the space. Just walking in the shared part of the house creates dirt that someone had to mop or vacuum and use of the kitchen means he contributes to the need to a deep clean regularly?  You may chose to do this for him, but I don’t understand how it’s not his household and why he shouldn’t, as an adult, be part of upkeep or paying for upkeep like any adult. 

I am not at all saying people shouldn’t clean up when they make a mess. Track mud in? Get out the mop. Have a spill on the stove? You know where the cleanser is. Routine care? The floor gets cleaned no matter who walks on it, right? The kitchen is used, right? No one who is able bodied is actually waiting for their kids to get home from college to clean the kitchen, are they?

A household is centered on a location - a house, apartment, or condo, for example. Family is centered on people. 

[ScoutTN]

54 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Like I said, work and household chores are two different things. The time for teaching has passed. If an adult feels entitled, then it’s their problem, not mine. I’m only responsible for how I respond to them. I hope, as certain as you are about that you “would never allow” that attitude in your home, that you are comfortable with kicking your kids out of the house, even if they have nowhere to go, because when you say “never,” that’s a very firm line, and it’s a really ugly one. 

Yep. I have seen it in my FOO. When reality looms, getting a job appears not so unreasonable. (Assuming no mental or physical health issues that actually prevent work or require a slower entry, of course.) 

But this is why we expect and teach our kids to work from a young age. And to save money. And to pay for some of their own stuff, in gradually increasing amounts. Then the financial reality of adult life is not such a shock or not quite as steep of a learning curve. It will always be hard, but training can make it easier.

Kids are different of course. We have one saver and one spender; they require different scaffolding. They prefer different kinds of work and have hugely different strengths and opportunities. We know that one will be slower to launch and are thinking about that together with that kid on an ongoing basis. That one has more challenges, but also a fierce desire for independence.

Summer for a 19 yo could look like many different things, but work is not optional. 

Edited May 21 by ScoutTN

[Ausmumof3]

Garga you sound pretty burned out yourself right now… 

I don’t think expecting help with chores is at all unreasonable but I’d probably stick to chores that are more essential house running stuff not making extras. Hopefully that will give you a bit of time to take care or the extras…

Really I just think everyone needs a bit more down times than our society allows 

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

3 hours a day

Any chance you have hired help in the house?

Not interested in arguing, because we’re clearly coming at this from different perspectives, but the OP was talking about running a couple/few loads of laundry, along with the cat boxes and maybe something else. A load of laundry could easily take an hour, leading to that estimate of three hours of work, but it’s hardly all-encompassing toil. Granted, that’s one day’s work. 

Around here, my 19 yo spends a couple hours a day looking after pets: her own and other family pets that need attention. That’s every day. She also regularly vacuums the house, cleans her own room and bathroom (which isn’t exclusively hers), helps with cooking when asked, does her laundry, runs errands and helps with shopping, and is generally a helpful presence. Some days she probably works for two hours, sometimes four. There’s enough work to go around.

[ScoutTN]

@Lecka  You are not alone. We have one who works SO much better and more willingly for others than for us. That one went to school several years ago bc homeschooling was too much conflict. He thrives there. 

[fairfarmhand]

My 19 yo dd and I had this discussion when she was figuring out how much work she wanted to do this summer. She put out there that she wanted to work 4 days a week instead of 5. I told her I would be fine with that, as long as she kept to a plan for her days off. Already, most of her Saturdays are her sleeping till 11 am laying on the bed in her messy room and scrolling for the majority of the day. I said, if you need/want a day off in the week, I want you to do something with it. Go hang out with friends. Do projects. Clean your room, help your sister with her kids. But since she already has Saturday and most of Sunday where she just hangs out and does very little, I didn't think that a midweek day with nothing going on was a good idea. This dd struggle with depression which is made worse by no structure and no engagement out of the house. 

She does help with grass cutting, taking care of the dog, and occasional errands for me. But, no, I don't think that nonstop non structured days with no engagement is good for anyone long term. She thought about it and must have seen my point because she's been working 5 days a week since school let out 2 weeks ago.

Edited May 21 by fairfarmhand

[Scarlett]

39 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I do. 

Oops my bad. I thought you did not work. 

[prairiewindmomma]

53 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 I hope, as certain as you are about that you “would never allow” that attitude in your home, that you are comfortable with kicking your kids out of the house, even if they have nowhere to go, because when you say “never,” that’s a very firm line, and it’s a really ugly one. 

Shout this louder for those in the back! 
 

I will also add that in the awkward transition that young adulthood is that we should give thought to the attitude we’re conveying to our kids. Too often we are just beaten down by life and frustrated that our kids are just not getting things together in their lives the way that they should and need to. Be wary about how we display our feelings. My kids know that I absolutely adore them and that it annoys the f- out of me when they don’t pick up after themselves. 90% adore, 10% annoyed by behavior. It’s way too easy to come across as 10% adore, 90% annoyed. I dont want my kids to launch feeling they are unwelcome, unloved, or that I am just ready for them to move on and leave (even on days when I am just ready for them to launch). People > things, always. Fixing a messy house is way easier than fixing a messed up relationship.

I am not saying that we need to be martyrs or that we should let an unbalanced dynamic fester into resentment. But also…keep your priorities straight. All that you did when they were little can so easily be overshadowed by things going pear-shaped in the relationship later. I am saying make choices that are relationship focused > task focused.

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Shout this louder for those in the back! 
 

I will also add that in the awkward transition that young adulthood is that we should give thought to the attitude we’re conveying to our kids. Too often we are just beaten down by life and frustrated that our kids are just not getting things together in their lives the way that they should and need to. Be wary about how we display our feelings. My kids know that I absolutely adore them and that it annoys the f- out of me when they don’t pick up after themselves. 90% adore, 10% annoyed by behavior. It’s way too easy to come across as 10% adore, 90% annoyed. I dont want my kids to launch feeling they are unwelcome, unloved, or that I am just ready for them to move on and leave (even on days when I am just ready for them to launch). People > things, always. Fixing a messy house is way easier than fixing a messed up relationship.

I am not saying that we need to be martyrs or that we should let an unbalanced dynamic fester into resentment. But also…keep your priorities straight. All that you did when they were little can so easily be overshadowed by things going pear-shaped in the relationship later. I am saying make choices that are relationship focused > task focused.

YES! I do think that this conversation could be done in a loving way and get the results that the OP is looking for. I've always had better results with "You're such a reasonable, helpful person, and we can all come to a middle ground here." than "I require X, Y, and Z."  Appealing to my kids' sense of fairness is effective, as is getting their input on the chores they want, the timing of those things, and reminding them that "Hey nobody wants to necessarily do work, but as adults, we often have to do what we don't like and if we all manage it well, it's not too much for any one person." in other words, I don't think it's an either/ or situation. 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

How is the weather where you are? I have been woken up by the sun before 6am daily and I am a night owl which means I am sleep deprived

have you tried a sleep mask?  

i have this one- it's gel with "cut outs" for the eyes so there's lots of room and nothing pressing on them.

 

dh and dudeling keep running off with them . . . . . I also keep one in my car for car trips.
 

[pinball]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

YES! I do think that this conversation could be done in a loving way and get the results that the OP is looking for. I've always had better results with "You're such a reasonable, helpful person, and we can all come to a middle ground here." than "I require X, Y, and Z."  Appealing to my kids' sense of fairness is effective, as is getting their input on the chores they want, the timing of those things, and reminding them that "Hey nobody wants to necessarily do work, but as adults, we often have to do what we don't like and if we all manage it well, it's not too much for any one person." in other words, I don't think it's an either/ or situation. 

Please.

Not every conversation needs to be twisted to get a psychological advantage with one’s own family members. 
 

A simple…”I need some help. Could you please XYZ?” should suffice 99% of the time.

[Lecka]

I just want to say he sounds like a really sweet kid who has had a good attitude in the past, and I think that is really promising. 
 

For myself I have to mention, it would be vital that I got on the same page with my husband on this.  
 

I can see just from this thread there is a wide range of what people think is acceptable, and when that happens, sometimes it turns out we really don’t agree and need to come to an agreement first.  
 

I am just throwing this out there, I am not sure if I remember if one of your kids might have ADHD or autism or something like that.

 

Sometimes the things some people may deal with with teenagers, can happen later, but it can be the same kind of thing.  
 

If that’s the case, this would not exactly be a “transitioning to being a young adult” as much as transitioning to being a teenager, but oh by the way, you’re actually a young adult.  
 

If that’s the case, I have seen this kind of thing.  I think it’s helpful to think — this can be part of a process of becoming more independent, and that is a good thing.  And how do you even become someone who knows how to disagree with another person, if not by disagreeing with another person.  That is how I try to look on the bright side and be optimistic, in general.  

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

have you tried a sleep mask?  

i have this one- it's gel with "cut outs" for the eyes so there's lots of room and nothing pressing on them.

 

dh and dudeling keep running off with them . . . . . I also keep one in my car for car trips.
 

Thanks for posting that link -- I just ordered one! I have a similar one, but the eye cut-out things on mine are too small so it gets uncomfortable pretty quickly. This one looks much better! 

[freesia]

25 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I am not at all saying people shouldn’t clean up when they make a mess. Track mud in? Get out the mop. Have a spill on the stove? You know where the cleanser is. Routine care? The floor gets cleaned no matter who walks on it, right? The kitchen is used, right? No one who is able bodied is actually waiting for their kids to get home from college to clean the kitchen, are they?

A household is centered on a location - a house, apartment, or condo, for example. Family is centered on people. 

And families all pitch in even if they don’t own the house. The floor needs regular mopping whether there is mud. The litter needs changing. If one member isn’t working it makes sense they handle more of the general chores. 

[happypamama]

Also, I might say, "I would like you to do the dishes after breakfast/after dinner," rather than, "Please keep up with the dishes." "Keeping up with" seems more like an ongoing hassle that will need constant attention. He might be more willing to help if he knows he's just responsible for doing them at some point and can do them all at once. You can together work on a time by which they should be done. Maybe you need them done by 4 pm so you can cook dinner, or maybe he can do them at midnight if that's what he wants as long as you wake up to a clean pile. Or whatever. 

[ScoutTN]

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

YES! I do think that this conversation could be done in a loving way and get the results that the OP is looking for. I've always had better results with "You're such a reasonable, helpful person, and we can all come to a middle ground here." than "I require X, Y, and Z."  Appealing to my kids' sense of fairness is effective, as is getting their input on the chores they want, the timing of those things, and reminding them that "Hey nobody wants to necessarily do work, but as adults, we often have to do what we don't like and if we all manage it well, it's not too much for any one person." in other words, I don't think it's an either/ or situation. 

Agree. Our kids definitely appreciate being included in the decision making processes of household management, chores etc. But they also occasionally still require a reminder that privileges are not rights. That entitlement attitude creeps in on all of us, middle aged adults included, at times! 

We encourage and scaffold their fledgling work efforts, as does our extended family. Happy to support a slow to develop kid, or one who has a very zig-zag path, but work is still required in our household and family.
 

 

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, pinball said:

Please.

Not every conversation needs to be twisted to get a psychological advantage with one’s own family members. 
 

A simple…”I need some help. Could you please XYZ?” should suffice 99% of the time.

That's the way I do it, too.

We're pretty direct in our house, so if I need help with something, I can't be bothered getting flowery about it when I ask, and besides that, my son would think it was kind of manipulative if I complimented him on how reasonable and helpful he was, only to immediately follow it up by asking him to do something for me. He would see right through something like that!

I guess a lot of this depends on everyone's personalities.

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

Like I said, work and household chores are two different things. The time for teaching has passed. If an adult feels entitled, then it’s their problem, not mine. I’m only responsible for how I respond to them. I hope, as certain as you are about that you “would never allow” that attitude in your home, that you are comfortable with kicking your kids out of the house, even if they have nowhere to go, because when you say “never,” that’s a very firm line, and it’s a really ugly one. 

Well I mean the language of ‘kicking them out’ is pretty ugly. But how long would you tolerate an adult living in your home who doesn’t share their part of the domestic labor? 
I don’t  think you have to kick them out, but if I have  a 19 year old who is in his second summer of bad attitude about helping around the house I am going to be leaning toward helping him find other living arrangements by next summer  where he can do as he pleases. 
In hindsight Dh and I wish we had asked ds to find his own place before he did finally move. Ds was very disrespectful and entitled. He did finally move out at 22. And it has been really good for our relationship. 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

That's the way I do it, too.

We're pretty direct in our house, so if I need help with something, I can't be bothered getting flowery about it when I ask, and besides that, my son would think it was kind of manipulative if I complimented him on how reasonable and helpful he was, only to immediately follow it up by asking him to do something for me. He would see right through something like that!

I guess a lot of this depends on everyone's personalities.

And age. Your son is 24 right?

[gardenmom5]

35 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I am not at all saying people shouldn’t clean up when they make a mess.  

My friend started when her kids were small with "this is a crime scene - leave no evidence".  Iow: clean up after yourselves.  (especially in the kitchen.)

There are household tasks my two at home will do willingly - and those no amount of applied electric cattle prod could get them to do . .

32 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

 A load of laundry could easily take an hour, leading to that estimate of three hours of work, but it’s hardly all-encompassing toil. Granted, that’s one day’s work. 

 

laundry takes maybe 10 minutes (with sorting) to get a load going in the washing machine - come back (however long) later and throw it in the dryer and the next in the wash.    It hardly takes any time unless the expectation is to also fold it.   The only real fight I have with mine about laundry is - put their towels in the laundry room - and GIVE ME BACK MY BASKETS!!!!!   If I have to do a hostage rescue from their rooms, I will dump their laundry on their beds.

I threw a load of towels in yesterday -  took dudeling to his dr appointment and back, and it was still going . . . . (I was gone for nearly 90 minutes with travel time.)

[fairfarmhand]

13 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

That's the way I do it, too.

We're pretty direct in our house, so if I need help with something, I can't be bothered getting flowery about it when I ask, and besides that, my son would think it was kind of manipulative if I complimented him on how reasonable and helpful he was, only to immediately follow it up by asking him to do something for me. He would see right through something like that!

I guess a lot of this depends on everyone's personalities.

Oh I don’t necessarily say it out loud but treating my kids as if they are reasonable and helpful (in other words not approaching the issue as if I expect them to be obnoxious and lazy—ie manage my own attitude because it SHOWS) is much more productive than coming at the situation as if we’re on opposite sides. My dd19 is suuuuper messy and content with cleaning standards that make me crazy but when I say “today we have cleaning, laundry and yard work. I’m giving you first pick of jobs. Which can you handle for the family?” Is almost always successful. 

[bolt.]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well I mean the language of ‘kicking them out’ is pretty ugly. But how long would you tolerate an adult living in your home who doesn’t share their part of the domestic labor? 

For me, if having my young adult living in my home is about the same amount of work for me as having them live elsewhere -- once I get over the initial sense that I wish I could work less due to their presence, I don't think I'd set a time limit for them to move out just so I could work the same amount without the pleasure of having them nearby.

Now, if they were *also* not a pleasure to have nearby, then I might be more inclined to limit their time. Also, if they were making noticably more work for me with their presence, I'd be thinking different thoughts.

But not just because they weren't doing their share of domestic labour.

What I mean by this is: say if two adults share a home, and they magically both do exactly the same amount of domestic labour in shared spaces, then "I" do "x" (the total amount of shared-space housekeeping that exists) divided by two. Similarly if three adults share the same home, which, in spite of being extra-inhabited still has the same amount of shared space and generally the same cleaning schedule for those spaces, if it was mathematically fair, then "I" would be doing "x" divided by three.

x/3 is less work than x/2. Therefore sharing space with an additional adult, in a fair world, should lead to a decrease in "my" responsibilities. In an unfair world, if the third adult does no shared work, my workload remains x/2. Which is exactly what it was before they moved in, and exactly what it will be when they move out. I don't like that it's not fair, because one of us isn't sharing in the work, but I am not actually working harder.

Therefore my decision is emotional and relational in nature: would I rather do x/2 work with the company of an adult child at home, or would I rather do x/2 work without the company of my adult child in the home. Does my sense of the pleasure of their company decrease when I feel that I am being bearing an unfair portion of the chores? For sure it does. Does that mean I would prefer the same workload without the kid there to make me feel bad about it? Maybe! That's definitely a crummy feeling. But if them leaving or staying has no actual impact on my chore load... I'll need to analyze what impacts it actually has, and base my decision on those factors: not the chore factors.

[Catwoman]

37 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And age. Your son is 24 right?

Yes, but his age has nothing to do with it.

[Catwoman]

24 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Oh I don’t necessarily say it out loud but treating my kids as if they are reasonable and helpful (in other words not approaching the issue as if I expect them to be obnoxious and lazy—ie manage my own attitude because it SHOWS) is much more productive than coming at the situation as if we’re on opposite sides. My dd19 is suuuuper messy and content with cleaning standards that make me crazy but when I say “today we have cleaning, laundry and yard work. I’m giving you first pick of jobs. Which can you handle for the family?” Is almost always successful. 

Ok -- that makes total sense! Sorry I completely misinterpreted your other post! 

[freesia]

13 minutes ago, bolt. said:

For me, if having my young adult living in my home is about the same amount of work for me as having them live elsewhere -- once I get over the initial sense that I wish I could work less due to their presence, I don't think I'd set a time limit for them to move out just so I could work the same amount without the pleasure of having them nearby.

Now, if they were *also* not a pleasure to have nearby, then I might be more inclined to limit their time. Also, if they were making noticably more work for me with their presence, I'd be thinking different thoughts.

But not just because they weren't doing their share of domestic labour.

What I mean by this is: say if two adults share a home, and they magically both do exactly the same amount of domestic labour in shared spaces, then "I" do "x" (the total amount of shared-space housekeeping that exists) divided by two. Similarly if three adults share the same home, which, in spite of being extra-inhabited still has the same amount of shared space and generally the same cleaning schedule for those spaces, if it was mathematically fair, then "I" would be doing "x" divided by three.

x/3 is less work than x/2. Therefore sharing space with an additional adult, in a fair world, should lead to a decrease in "my" responsibilities. In an unfair world, if the third adult does no shared work, my workload remains x/2. Which is exactly what it was before they moved in, and exactly what it will be when they move out. I don't like that it's not fair, because one of us isn't sharing in the work, but I am not actually working harder.

Therefore my decision is emotional and relational in nature: would I rather do x/2 work with the company of an adult child at home, or would I rather do x/2 work without the company of my adult child in the home. Does my sense of the pleasure of their company decrease when I feel that I am being bearing an unfair portion of the chores? For sure it does. Does that mean I would prefer the same workload without the kid there to make me feel bad about it? Maybe! That's definitely a crummy feeling. But if them leaving or staying has no actual impact on my chore load... I'll need to analyze what impacts it actually has, and base my decision on those factors: not the chore factors.

Well I just had two more kids come home and the house keeping load has greatly increased. So, if they did not do their share, it would make a difference. 

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Well I mean the language of ‘kicking them out’ is pretty ugly. But how long would you tolerate an adult living in your home who doesn’t share their part of the domestic labor? 
I don’t  think you have to kick them out, but if I have  a 19 year old who is in his second summer of bad attitude about helping around the house I am going to be leaning toward helping him find other living arrangements by next summer  where he can do as he pleases. 
In hindsight Dh and I wish we had asked ds to find his own place before he did finally move. Ds was very disrespectful and entitled. He did finally move out at 22. And it has been really good for our relationship. 

[Deleted by moderator: There's no need to get personal.]

 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Catwoman said:

Not all parents keep score of things the way you did with your stepson.

 

That was unkind and uncalled for.

[Pawz4me]

Am I the only one who thinks that how we do things in our family is irrelevant here? @Gargasounds as if she really needs her DS's help. He has time.  Therefore I don't think it's unreasonable to ask (and expect) him to pitch in. In my world that's how healthy families work.

It's really as simple as that. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Pawz4me said:

Am I the only one who thinks that how we do things in our family is irrelevant here? @Gargasounds as if she really needs her DS's help. He has time.  Therefore I don't think it's unreasonable to ask (and expect) him to pitch in. In my world that's how healthy families work.

It's really as simple as that. 

I agree. She does sound very overworked at the moment and her son certainly has the time to help the family.

[freesia]

I also feel like there is an important aspect of caring that goes into this. Many of you have said you gladly do it all to care for them. I think that that robs them of the opportunity to think of others. It’s a fantasy to think that the household upkeep just gets done. I would feel like I was teaching my child to be selfish if I didn’t sit down and have a conversation about how they were going to do their part in the house they live in. It’s real work. They need to step into the place where they realize they are needed and can lighten the load of someone else. 

[fairfarmhand]

5 minutes ago, freesia said:

Well I just had two more kids come home and the house keeping load has greatly increased. So, if they did not do their share, it would make a difference. 

Yes. My dd21 moved out a year ago and I was stunned at how big a difference it’s made in the household. She’s my tidiest kid and almost a neat freak but the amount of food shopped for, cooked, dishes, and cleaning has decreased quite a bit and I wasn’t expecting that because she’s a pretty conscientious person. Also, our water an electric bills went down by 20 percent (one fifth). It does make a big difference just having a single person not here.

[bolt.]

9 minutes ago, freesia said:

Well I just had two more kids come home and the house keeping load has greatly increased. So, if they did not do their share, it would make a difference. 

That's interesting. It suggests, maybe, that we might all feel a little less frustrated about adult kids at home if they were guided to focus primarily on lessening their negative impact on shared spaces as a first step.

It probably also has something to do with privilege in the first place, because it's easier to ignore other people's messes 'in their own space' if there's lots of space to go around. It definitely helps (a ton!) me that my pair of teen and adult kids each have a solo bathroom, and also each have some living space that I think of as theirs (in addition to a bedroom each). I don't occupy myself with thinking about or cleaning those spaces myself.

The only impact on my chore routine with the return of my adult daughter has been a slightly more frequent need to empty/fill the dishwasher, and a few extra items on the kitchen counters sometimes, for me to clear up when I'm already clearing counters, and a few extra items at the grocery store that I'm already shopping at. That's a change of maybe 2 to 5 minutes of work per day for me. The floors have been really normal, their laundry is their own, and their clutter is confined to their own space, or boxed if it's left in shared spaces.

Edited May 21 by bolt.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

I didn’t say he shouldn’t take care of his own living area, did I? This specifically addresses expecting an adult to do something that someone else ordinarily does.

But it sounds like there are things that haven't been getting done on an ongoing basis because the homeowners are at their limit between paid work, housework, and whatever else their priorities are.

I'm gonna assume that some of what the parents do all year long ... paid work and otherwise ... benefit the 19yo.  I don't know the details, whether they help him with his college costs etc., but at least he seems to be living rent free over the summer, if not more.  It's very reasonable to expect something in return from an adult living in your home rent-free.  Especially if there is a need, vs. just an attitude toward not being busy or submissive enough.

I've had long-term houseguests who weren't even relatives of mine.  I asked them for very little (they were another housemate's guest).  One grown young man would sit and watch me, a working single mom of two toddlers, do all the housework.  But like you said, that's my problem, and it's not like he had useful skills to help me.  However.  One day another woman got stuck in the snow in our driveway.  Myself and two petite, middle-aged women worked about a half hour to push that car out.  The young man watched us through the window.  I was so angry.  I mentioned it to the housemate who was related to him, and she mentioned it to him.  His comment:  "I didn't know they wanted help.  Why didn't they ask me?"  It was written off as a cultural difference.  OK fine.  (He did start offering to do small jobs, like dragging the garbage bins to the treelawn once a week.)

But in our culture, it is not OK for an adult resident to be doing nothing at all while watching his hosts do everything.  I'm not talking about a short-term guest, but someone who is there long enough to be an actual part of the household.  A teen back home on summer break is not a "houseguest" who shouldn't help out.  He needs a bit of calm schooling on this matter.

I agree with the poster who suggested having his dad talk to him.  It may come across more as a "this is what men do" discussion.

[bolt.]

20 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Am I the only one who thinks that how we do things in our family is irrelevant here? @Gargasounds as if she really needs her DS's help. He has time.  Therefore I don't think it's unreasonable to ask (and expect) him to pitch in. In my world that's how healthy families work.

It's really as simple as that. 

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask adult kids to pitch in during a home stay -- but if the situation is really that serious, I'm not sure it helps Garga as much as it might seem to. After all, he'll be gone in a few months or weeks, and Garga will go back to really needing someone's help.

I was mostly responding to, "How long would you let a non-chore-sharing adult kid live with you?" -- my answer being, if you figure out how to let them stay at all, it's probably possible to do it indefinitely. If Garga is struggling to handle the cat box, dishes, and laundry situation in her home, the people who live there and love one another should definitely help... but with or without her son, she will still have dishes, laundry, and cat boxes.

The suggestion of 'never allowing' such things (and/or making the son leave if he won't contribute) doesn't solve any problem whatsoever. Lots of people would rather keep the son and the chores, rather than losing the son and keeping the chores anyways. (Hopefully, not many of us will face that decision, but some of us probably will.)

The solutions of using some diplomacy, tact, patience, and leadership skills are a much stronger set of suggestions.

Edited May 21 by bolt.

[Garga]

OP here: I finished work at 4:45 today, took the cat to the vet (with DS19s help) at 5:30, read the responses here, then cooked dinner. 

I’ll write more (I’m typing between bites) but I wanted to add something else that comes to my mind through all this: the fact that men get married and then their wives take on the greater burden of domestic chores, and I really don’t want my son to be a man like that. So, I don’t think I want to go down the road of doing all the work for him or going with the idea that when he goes I’ll have to do it all (with DH) anyway. While that’s true, I don’t want him to have the mindset that chores are for other people, but not him. My future DIL deserves a husband who realizes that all adults in the house do housework, and do more if they don’t have a paying job lined up (or education or are homeschooling or have some other productive pursuit.)

Also! Wanted to say that my son did the litter boxes and dishes, but not the couch stuff. However, he also attempted to fix a hinge that was wrong on his door and he MOWED THE LAWN WITHOUT ANYONE ASKING HIM! OMG!! I’m so happy about that! My DH and I hate mowing.

So, later, when I’ve finished eating, I’ll write more, but I’m already thinking the Garga family needs to write up a list of what needs to be done and let people choose. He clearly would rather mow than wash couch covers! 

He’s a good kid. I was really shocked at his pushback. I figured I needed to come at this in a different way than I was and I’ve gotten a ton of awesome advice today from the hive. 

FYI: We pay for his education 100% and all his clothes and his toiletries, etc. He has $0 income, so if we didn’t pay, he’d be naked and dirty and hungry. Paying for college is what my job is for, though I love my job. (I love, love, love my job.) But the main reason I started working was to pay for their college educations. (That’s a long story and a huge blessing that God dropped in my lap.)

Edited May 21 by Garga

[fairfarmhand]

Sounds like a great day @Garga and I’m glad you’re in a better mindset. And my dd would much rather cut grass than clean so I’ll take it too because I hate mowing and don’t mind cleaning!

[Katy]

I’m trying to imagine how my dad would have reacted if I’d refused to help out at home, help with animals, AND work. I think I would have been laughed out of the house. 

I’d point out that all adults do chores every day unless they are so ill they are in the hospital. You don’t get a break from dishes or cat care or  child care as an adult. Heck, here he is, pretending to be an adult and you still have to parent him. Delaying chores only makes them take exponentially longer. Even homeless people who refuse to work have to either walk to a soup kitchen or beg for money or food. When they refuse, they go hungry. You generally can’t even stay in a shelter without working to contribute in some small way. 

[kbutton]

21 minutes ago, freesia said:

I also feel like there is an important aspect of caring that goes into this. Many of you have said you gladly do it all to care for them. I think that that robs them of the opportunity to think of others. It’s a fantasy to think that the household upkeep just gets done. I would feel like I was teaching my child to be selfish if I didn’t sit down and have a conversation about how they were going to do their part in the house they live in. It’s real work. They need to step into the place where they realize they are needed and can lighten the load of someone else. 

It’s a royal pain to live with someone with this attitude or its cousin attitude of needing to always be told what needs to be done.

@Garga , I’m glad that he’s stepped up in other ways and that it looks like it will be something you can work out.

I am glad you could identify your motivation to help him learn how to be a considerate husband too. I truly hope he absorbs that.

All with the caveat that we can lead a horse to water and all that.

[regentrude]

I would read his mowing the lawn as a silent "mom, sorry I was out of line earlier". 

I think task makes a big difference. I recall hating to be asked to do certain chores but would happily spend more time shoveling coal, splitting wood, or lugging heavy stuff. Instead of washing couch cushions I would have begged for another assignment. 

[Arcadia]

5 minutes ago, Garga said:

My future DIL deserves a husband who realizes that all adults in the house do housework, especially if they don’t have a paying job lined up (or education or some other productive pursuit.)

My dad and my husband does housework even though they both work and my late mom alternated between working full time, part time and not working. I think every household member pitching in on chores is fine without making it about not having a job or school work. I guess I subconsciously chose to marry someone that is as capable at housework as my dad. 

[SKL]

I would also add that although a 19yo is legally an adult, that doesn't mean a parent's job is completely over at that age.

I do think that letting my 19yo sit around all summer and refuse to help OR get a job would be robbing him of some important life experience.  I think this would increase his likelihood of qualifying for a Hoarders episode someday.

If our teens don't learn from us how to be decent housemates, they'll have to learn from upsetting their future friends / significant others / landlords.  Not better IMO.

[Ausmumof3]

16 minutes ago, Garga said:

OP here: I finished work at 4:45 today, took the cat to the vet (with DS19s help) at 5:30, read the responses here, then cooked dinner. 

I’ll write more (I’m typing between bites) but I wanted to add something else that comes to my mind through all this: the fact that men get married and then their wives take on the greater burden of domestic chores, and I really don’t want my son to be a man like that. So, I don’t think I want to go down the road of doing all the work for him or going with the idea that when he goes I’ll have to do it all (with DH) anyway. While that’s true, I don’t want him to have the mindset that chores are for other people, but not him. My future DIL deserves a husband who realizes that all adults in the house do housework, and do more if they don’t have a paying job lined up (or education or are homeschooling or have some other productive pursuit.)

Also! Wanted to say that my son did the litter boxes and dishes, but not the couch stuff. However, he also attempted to fix a hinge that was wrong on his door and he MOWED THE LAWN WITHOUT ANYONE ASKING HIM! OMG!! I’m so happy about that! My DH and I hate mowing.

So, later, when I’ve finished eating, I’ll write more, but I’m already thinking the Garga family needs to write up a list of what needs to be done and let people choose. He clearly would rather mow than wash couch covers! 

He’s a good kid. I was really shocked at his pushback. I figured I needed to come at this in a different way than I was and I’ve gotten a ton of awesome advice today from the hive. 

FYI: We pay for his education 100% and all his clothes and his toiletries, etc. He has $0 income, so if we didn’t pay, he’d be naked and dirty and hungry. Paying for college is what my job is for, though I love my job. (I love, love, love my job.) But the main reason I started working was to pay for their college educations. (That’s a long story and a huge blessing that God dropped in my lap.)

Maybe the pushback is more about not wanting to feel like he’s being treated like a child and told what to do than actually not wanting to help.  I also know with my 17yo who is usually helpful I sometimes get pushback if he’s already mapped out in his head what he thinks he’s going to be doing. I relate to this because I’m a bit the same. I hate having a plan changed if I’ve made one, but usually after 24 hours or so I’m ok. I just don’t like sudden changes or feeling like someone else is taking control of my schedule.

[SKL]

21 minutes ago, Garga said:

He’s a good kid. I was really shocked at his pushback. I figured I needed to come at this in a different way than I was and I’ve gotten a ton of awesome advice today from the hive. 

FYI: We pay for his education 100% and all his clothes and his toiletries, etc. He has $0 income, so if we didn’t pay, he’d be naked and dirty and hungry. Paying for college is what my job is for, though I love my job. (I love, love, love my job.) But the main reason I started working was to pay for their college educations. (That’s a long story and a huge blessing that God dropped in my lap.)

It certainly doesn't sound like a lost cause.  I hope your discussions go well.

Thanks for sharing that your paid job is for him.  Does he know that?  I don't know that I'd tell him in the context of the current fuss, but I think it would help if he came to understand that you are working 10 hours a day so that he can live his dream in the future.  That is absolutely huge.  (Maybe his dad should tell him that actually.)

[gstharr]

7 hours ago, MEmama said:

Is it possible he's burned out and just needs a break?

I freely admit I don't ask my college kid to do almost anything around the house when he's home on breaks. I *love* to spoil him 🥰 but also he's maxed out at university and really, truly needs the time to decompress. He does work though.

Wow, I am surprised by how few of us there are in this discussion. To be honest, my kid had no assigned chores growing up. Occasionally, I would ask him to help me fold clothes, or to take out the trash, or every now and wash the car.  My reason was that I had him doing so many things k-12, that I didn't have the heart to take a minute of his free time away (e.g. afterschool math and science, athletics and competitions, math circle, then his own ECs --debate, robotics, building a race car with a school team, and socializing).  Now, he will be briefly home for this summer after freshman year, and  he still has precious little down time.  For example, he took a final this morning, had to finish moving out his dorm, and now is on a six hour flight home. First thing in the morning, he will be on-lining something for one of his summer employment programs, then in the afternoon doing something in person for another program.  So, I don't expect him to much of anything else when he is here. He is pulling his weight in a way I see more beneficial for him and me than  having him mow the lawn or something.

[happypamama]

Well, Garga, you've always been a respectful and kind mom, and this sounds like a good opening to, "Who can do what?" That he mowed the grass is fantastic!

 

I am sure you guys will figure this all out.