New gun violence thread

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

And you know when that doesn't happen?

When it's a white male.

That’s what I’ve been thinking all morning as well. The number one characteristic all the shooters have in common are their guns. The number two is that almost everyone of them are male. Let’s start there then before we get to a very rare characteristic like trans identity which is even less common for a shooter than being female. 

 

[HomeAgain]

Does anyone feel like the U.S. has completely lost control of mass shootings?  Completely.

The Uvalde report stressed that officers did not go in because the shooter was equipped with an AR-15 and they concluded it would be too dangerous to confront him. Too dangerous. 

It is too dangerous for a large group of fully armed and trained police officers to confront someone with an assault rifle even though they had the same style.  There is no coming back from that.  There are so many of these and similar weapons in the hands of people who are convinced that the government needs to have this threat from common citizens.  Nobody is going to create legislation that takes these weapons off the streets BECAUSE IT IS TOO DANGEROUS to go against this type of thinker.

We are lost.  So lost.

[Carol in Cal.]

Just now, HomeAgain said:

Does anyone feel like the U.S. has completely lost control of mass shootings?  Completely.

The Uvalde report stressed that officers did not go in because the shooter was equipped with an AR-15 and they concluded it would be too dangerous to confront him. Too dangerous. 

It is too dangerous for a large group of fully armed and trained police officers to confront someone with an assault rifle even though they had the same style.  There is no coming back from that.  There are so many of these and similar weapons in the hands of people who are convinced that the government needs to have this threat from common citizens.  Nobody is going to create legislation that takes these weapons off the streets BECAUSE IT IS TOO DANGEROUS to go against this type of thinker.

We are lost.  So lost.

Well, and also, why do shooting happen in schools?  Because they are sitting ducks.  Obs.

[HomeAgain]

2 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Well, and also, why do shooting happen in schools?  Because they are sitting ducks.  Obs.

Which is why they also happen in malls, grocery stores, base medical clinics, post offices, churches, night clubs, fairgrounds..........

 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

Mandatory finger print locks on all weapons

Nitpicking for a moment...we've discussed on here how some of us can't even get into our phones with our fingerprints. I support stricter laws, but fingerprint stuff is a real problem across the board for all kinds of things. If this kind of stuff is considered the bar to clear, some of the pushback will not be from people who oppose stricter laws generally. Every time I hear of something requiring fingerprint access, even when benign, I just get a bit twitchy. It's not that easy. Even indirectly leaning on the fingerprint options for tech is a problem, such as apps that tout how easy they are to use because you just need your fingerprint for your phone!...well, that's not me, and it's not a host of people (I know someone who has so little fingerprint left on any finger, the state police have to do their background checks a different way for her). When I have to download an app for something that was already supremely easy to make things easier, and it doesn't work for me...anyway, we need some kind of non-fingerprint option that serves a similar security purpose. Tech is not the answer to everything.

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I think they rub their hands in glee after every shooting.  They start crying about how this time the guvment gonna take their guns so they go buy more.  Their the only ones that have any hope about the gun laws changing, which is sickly ironic.  

Agreed, and this is a media problem and related to Quill's post.

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Not to be Little Miss Sunshine...

I agree with the whole post. 

[livetoread]

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Well, and also, why do shooting happen in schools?  Because they are sitting ducks.  Obs.

But unless we turn everything into an armed fortress, something always will be more of a "soft target" than something else. 

[Katy]

12 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Genuine question - for those of you who have options to live internationally due to career or financial situation (maybe even become permanent residents or citizens of another country), are you tempted to just leave this all behind?

Related - I believe we in AU are actively recruiting nurses and teachers from overseas right now. We have problems here, but thankfully not this one.

 

Yes, we’ve looked into it. Unfortunately last I knew New Zealand doesn’t have digital nomad visas and DH’s employer doesn’t have a location there. That would be our #1 choice. 

There are locations in France and Germany. In his line of work France would be easier to get a transfer position there. I’m totally open to it but DH is hesitant since the war in Ukraine broke out. I watch several people on YouTube who restore old houses or chateaus in France and when one guy drove a truck of donated supplies to the war in one day DH decided it was way too close. A week or so ago when Trump made threats of violence and bloodshed if he got arrested I joked that if he was ready to move to France he should just say the word. He said he wanted to wait a few more years and see if France was at war first.

I don’t think anything will change until we both restore federal funding for mental health care AND repeal the constitutional right to guns. I don’t think either will happen anytime soon. 

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I support stricter laws, but fingerprint stuff is a real problem across the board for all kinds of things

I'm a fan of the 4 digit combo safes. A lot of the security people I follow online like those. 

[FreyaO]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

 it may be that I see this more because I live in a blue state, where it’s not that easy to own guns, comparatively speaking - but there *has* been a lot of gun law reform since Sandy Hook. 
 

NY is a blue state and the Supreme Court is not helping with gun control.. Unfortunately.

[Dmmetler]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

Well, and also, why do shooting happen in schools?  Because they are sitting ducks.  Obs.

Here's the thing, though. The person who I trust with a room full of little kids,who has the patience and self control and nurturing is also probably the person who will struggle to shoot to kill.  

 

I taught at a school in a gang area. We had lockdowns regularly due to gunfire outside. We often couldn't go outside because of the risk. We had doors locked from the outside and keyfobs to get in and out. We did no events at night because that's when the gang activity picked up. We had armed police officers in the school daily, until they built a substation across the street. The front receptionist, who controlled the one door that the public could use to enter kept a gun below the counter. She was a retired MP. The principal was a retired Marine, and I'm guessing he was armed as well. 

 

That's not what I want for kids or schools or teachers. Teaching in an armed camp didn't make me feel safe. It made me scared. Same for the kids. This was before school shootings were common (Littleton happened when I was teaching there)-our concern was that violence would spill over. 

[kbutton]

4 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Here's the thing, though. The person who I trust with a room full of little kids,who has the patience and self control and nurturing is also probably the person who will struggle to shoot to kill. 

These instincts are not always at odds. I would bet it's a flip of the coin. I think there are quite a few gun owners who also would struggle with taking someone down. 

I think it's also different to contemplate going into an armed conflict position vs. finding yourself in one because in the moment, people often act differently than they anticipate. (Even while saying that, I still think the Uvalde police acted cowardly from what I know, which might be too limited.)

[mommyoffive]

Yet another school mass shooting - by Katelyn Jetelina (substack.com)

There have been a total of 130 mass shootings this year— more than the number of calendar days. Before Nashville, 33 incidents of gunfire have occurred at schools resulting in 8 deaths in 2023. (In 2022, there were 177 events resulting in 57 deaths.)

Altogether, firearm injuries (at and away from school) are the leading cause of death among children in the U.S. It surpassed motor vehicle crashes in 2020 for the first time.

We are failing our children

The collective trauma is also real. Among survivors of school shootings, prescriptions of antidepressants (understandably) increases. In addition, a national poll found that 3 in 5 teenagers worry about a shooting happening at their school. This increases immediately following a mass school shooting.

None of us are immune. And we should not become immune.

Edited March 28, 2023 by mommyoffive

[KSera]

20 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Here's the thing, though. The person who I trust with a room full of little kids,who has the patience and self control and nurturing is also probably the person who will struggle to shoot to kill.  

Besides the fact that surveys and research are clear that the majority of teachers absolutely do not want to carry a gun. You can’t force someone to have to do that.

[TheReader]

25 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 It bothers me that teachers aren't trusted with books, but whenever a shooting happens, people want them to be armed. It bothers me that I have a plan for what to do if my building is invaded (lock the doors, hide the kids behind the piano, pray...). 

 

Yes, I rehearse every time I walk into my room how I'll get my kiddos to safety. Shut the door, slide my "block the door" chairs in place under the doorknob, lights off (which the kids know is a "get quiet now" signal, though they don't know why), and as silently as possible lead the kiddos out the window and out our "not visible from any spot inside the building" evacuation route. And then further away as needed. All while also alerting the rest of the staff, calling 911, etc. And, you know, keeping my 12 little K-2nd graders calm, silent, and moving quickly. 

15 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Here's the thing, though. The person who I trust with a room full of little kids,who has the patience and self control and nurturing is also probably the person who will struggle to shoot to kill.  

 

I taught at a school in a gang area. We had lockdowns regularly due to gunfire outside. We often couldn't go outside because of the risk. We had doors locked from the outside and keyfobs to get in and out. We did no events at night because that's when the gang activity picked up. We had armed police officers in the school daily, until they built a substation across the street. The front receptionist, who controlled the one door that the public could use to enter kept a gun below the counter. She was a retired MP. The principal was a retired Marine, and I'm guessing he was armed as well. 

 

That's not what I want for kids or schools or teachers. Teaching in an armed camp didn't make me feel safe. It made me scared. Same for the kids. This was before school shootings were common (Littleton happened when I was teaching there)-our concern was that violence would spill over. 

Yes, this. I don't want to be armed in my classroom. I think that I could, if I had to, if it was me/my kiddos or an intruder, take out the intruder. But my word, I do not want to have to ever make that choice, I do not want my kiddos to have to see their teacher shoot someone, and I do not want to have to find a way to carry a handgun on my person in a place/way that all those little K-2nd graders won't bump into it when they rush me for a group bear hug. 

Arming the teachers is not the way to make things safer. We do all the things above, too (locked doors, walkie talkies to communicate, etc.) and I feel our place is fairly safe....(but not if someone comes shooting their way through our also mostly glass doors....). We need legislation that will actually change things. Not arm the teachers and put this responsibility even further on their shoulders. 

[Carol in Cal.]

What we need is to prevent the unthinkable from being thinkable.  

We ALWAYS had a ton ton of guns in this country.  

What has changed?  It’s not that.  There is something else.  I don’t know what, although I do have a couple of theories.  But until we figure that out and get on it, we are not going to be effective in prevention.

[mommyoffive]

12 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Genuine question - for those of you who have options to live internationally due to career or financial situation (maybe even become permanent residents or citizens of another country), are you tempted to just leave this all behind?

Related - I believe we in AU are actively recruiting nurses and teachers from overseas right now. We have problems here, but thankfully not this one.

 

I have 1000% been interested in leaving.  I would in a heartbeat if I could.  It would have been so much easier when the kids were younger.  But ever since Trump arrived on the political scene I have wanted to leave.  And to me it seems in the last decade or so there have been more shootings and I would love to live somewhere that you were not constantly thinking about if it happened here right now, what would I do?  We shouldn't be thinking that here in America.  Kids should not have to think about this at school.  And this shouldn't be happening in our country.  Our government has the power to change things, but they never will.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Tenaj said:

I was just reading news stories about the Nashville situation with tears.  It just hits home because we are involved with a church school about the same size in our area.  

But what do we (individually ) do to change this and what laws would work?  

My dh owns a legally purchased hand gun but has never shot it.  He has his concealed carry permit and took two classes a few years ago but he doesn't carry.  He just doesn't feel comfortable with it.

One of the things I am concerned about is how pervasive the gun culture is in certain churches.  In our tiny church we have two gun carriers.  One is an 88 year old lady who has no business having a gun - to think of something happening and her pulling that gun out is horrifying to me!  At least her gun is legal - the other carrier is the pastor and his is unregistered. 

I don't even know what I'm asking.  I feel helpless to do anything personally.  Even if all guns were outlawed tomorrow people I know and love would hide theirs and completely rebel against such a law.  

Regarding the bolded, this bothers me as a Christian. I feel like we need to have a more robust discussion in churches about a Christian's responsibility toward government. I don't think it means that we're supposed to act like it's the American Revolution over and over again throwing off tyranny. Sigh.

 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

What we need is to prevent the unthinkable from being thinkable.  

We ALWAYS had a ton ton of guns in this country.  

What has changed?  It’s not that.  There is something else.  I don’t know what, although I do have a couple of theories.  But until we figure that out and get on it, we are not going to be effective in prevention.

I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.  Fighting about gun laws has been done to death.  What other things do you think are leading to this phenomena and what do you think we could do to fix them.  I  think social stuff that leaves the government out of it is more within our control as lay people.  

[Amira]

We have not always had available such a massive number of weapons that can kill many people quickly, plus shooters have access to better body armor that keeps them alive longer to continue killing people.  

And we have had mass shootings and mass murder before this.  It was directed toward destroying Native American nations. Guns have been used for incredible violence throughout US history in the hands of white men.  

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes, in some states. And as far as the question @Melissa Louise asked about relocating -- The possibility of relocating to a different state is significantly more realistic than moving internationally. It's not that anywhere in the US you can get away from guns totally, but it seems to me some states' laws and overall culture make being a random victim of gun violence much less likely than others. It's something DH and I have considered. Our retirement funds certainly wouldn't go as far, we'd likely have to settle for a lesser housing situation than we have now. But we wouldn't have anywhere near the health care obstacles of moving to another country, nor any of the other hoop-jumping or logistical planning that would be necessary for that.  Our state's gun laws are more stringent than some, but not nearly as stringent as others. Gun culture, overall political culture, climate change--I think all of these things are contributing to more and more voluntarily sorting of citizens (which yes, I know is a worrisome thing in many ways). There are a number of states that we've crossed off our travel list due to gun laws and other political issues. 

What states are on your list for better to live in? And which ones will you not travel to?

My dream is to move out of the country, but I doubt year by year that it could happen.  Maybe just visiting somewhere for long periods of time would be good enough for me?  

 

[WildflowerMom]

13 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Genuine question - for those of you who have options to live internationally due to career or financial situation (maybe even become permanent residents or citizens of another country), are you tempted to just leave this all behind?

Related - I believe we in AU are actively recruiting nurses and teachers from overseas right now. We have problems here, but thankfully not this one.

 

I am actively trying to get ds to start school with this in mind.   I want him out of here and somewhere with universal healthcare and a system that gives a crap about their citizens.   

[mommyoffive]

3 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I am actively trying to get ds to start school with this in mind.   I want him out of here and somewhere with universal healthcare and a system that gives a crap about their citizens.   

Yes, I tell my kids to hightail it out of here.  

[freesia]

I don’t know. I do think about it. My older three are dual citizens and could sponsor us to live in Canada. We were actually months away from qualifying to be able to be citizens when we left. I’ve lived in four countries, though, and know that there is no perfect country. I’ve had frustrations living in each. Right now the pull of family is higher. I can’t say that I felt safer in Ireland or Canada despite the gun laws. Maybe because I’m a woman?

[Pawz4me]

43 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

What states are on your list for better to live in? And which ones will you not travel to?

I'd rather not answer that here. Not because there's any great secret--I think most people have a broad idea of what our list would look like. I'd rather not answer specifically because there are posters here (not you!) who seem to love getting threads about important issues derailed and/or shut down, and I think a specific list could provide fodder for that.

[Katy]

[edelweiss]

I am encouraging both of my daughters to relocate out of the United States.  Younger daughter is the likeliest to do it. She is studying in Europe this summer, will likely be spending next Spring there as well, and is actively researching doing graduate school in Europe. I have been very clear that for numerous reasons she will likelier be better off elsewhere. My older daughter would consider it as well, but isn't actively working toward it yet. DH and I would likely be stuck here for now. His job isn't able to be done elsewhere. After he retired, we would definitely consider it. 

As much as I would miss my daughters, I really want them to be happy, healthy, and safe. Of course there are no guarantees anywhere and every place has its problems, but I really think that they will be better off elsewhere.

We actually are a gun-owning family. They are locked in gun safes. If someone broke into my home, I really believe that I would use a gun if my family was in danger. However, I absolutely refuse to carry a gun around with me when I leave my house. I have pretty much accepted that it isn't unreasonable to think that the way I die might be via a gunshot when I go to the mall. 

[SKL]

What a privilege to be able to talk about moving to a safer country.

School shootings aside, the vast majority of gun crimes in the US occur in areas of poverty, and any country with poverty that is comparable to those areas has at least as much violence, if not more ... even where the gun laws on the books appear strict.  Nobody's clamoring to move to those countries to feel safer.

There's no scientifically proven correlation between legal gun ownership and murder.

We need to ban private ownership of weapons that can shoot a bunch of bullets without reloading.  We need to ban gun ownership by people with known risk factors.  We need to legally require safe storage of guns.  And we need to actually enforce the laws.  But honestly, the bigger issue is, when are we gonna actually deal with the reasons behind poverty and low education in the US?  Probably not in my lifetime.  Maybe that's a different thread ... but not really IMO.

And both sides making this political every time, make it not about the guns or the risks, but about party, and that's why nothing gets done.  Make it about the actual risks, which don't care who you voted for or if you voted at all.

(Flame away!  I have a lot of work due so I hope to stay away from too much internet this week.)

[Eos]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

What a privilege to be able to talk about moving to a safer country.

It's not about personal safety for me, it's that my tax dollars are going to provide favorable tax havens for weapons manufacturers, non-profit status for groups like the NRA, and supporting the madness of our military budget.  This makes me complicit and causes me deep grief and self-loathing for my complicity.

1 minute ago, SKL said:

We need to ban private ownership of weapons that can shoot a bunch of bullets without reloading. 

Totally agree.

[livetoread]

I've considered moving but right now we are tied to the area due to aging parents. Our young adults are here now too, but one will be leaving the area in the fall and the other might next year after graduating. After our parents die, I think there is a pretty good chance we'll move, but more likely to a state that matches our values more rather than out of the country. We are taking into account water issues, cost of living, good health care, and climate change as well as social and political values, and that narrows things down quite a bit. I loathe the direction our state is hell bent on taking and hate every tax dollar I send them, but family obligations come first for us.

 

[TheReader]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

What a privilege to be able to talk about moving to a safer country.

School shootings aside, the vast majority of gun crimes in the US occur in areas of poverty, and any country with poverty that is comparable to those areas has at least as much violence, if not more ... even where the gun laws on the books appear strict.  Nobody's clamoring to move to those countries to feel safer.

There's no scientifically proven correlation between legal gun ownership and murder.

We need to ban private ownership of weapons that can shoot a bunch of bullets without reloading.  We need to ban gun ownership by people with known risk factors.  We need to legally require safe storage of guns.  And we need to actually enforce the laws.  But honestly, the bigger issue is, when are we gonna actually deal with the reasons behind poverty and low education in the US?  Probably not in my lifetime.  Maybe that's a different thread ... but not really IMO.

And both sides making this political every time, make it not about the guns or the risks, but about party, and that's why nothing gets done.  Make it about the actual risks, which don't care who you voted for or if you voted at all.

(Flame away!  I have a lot of work due so I hope to stay away from too much internet this week.)

I agree with most of all of this, except we *can* vote for those who are or will focus on the actual risks -- not just on "gun control" but on what are the risk factors driving this kind of violence in the first place. 

The risks don't care, sure. But who we vote for *can* impact getting those risk factors addressed. So, when I say things like "vote, make my  job safer" - that's part of what I mean. All of those things. Not just "get rid of the guns" but all of it. 

 

[Farrar]

I can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said a million times. Like, yeah, I think about moving. Yeah, it's a privilege to be able to consider. Yeah, family and connections and money all hold me back to various extents.

I am willing to entertain the idea that there is something deeper wrong with our nation that we need to examine and fix. But in the meantime, what does it matter? If a victim is shot, who cares if they also have stage 2 cancer. Please treat the gunshot wound first before talking cancer treatment. In other words, dramatically limit the guns and access to them first. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

These instincts are not always at odds. I would bet it's a flip of the coin. I think there are quite a few gun owners who also would struggle with taking someone down. 

I think it's also different to contemplate going into an armed conflict position vs. finding yourself in one because in the moment, people often act differently than they anticipate. (Even while saying that, I still think the Uvalde police acted cowardly from what I know, which might be too limited.)

It is worse than that. No matter what your instinct is, you probably won't be able to shoot the shooter unless he/she is bizarrely close range. Trained FBI officers who have to recertify each year on their weapons and spend a lot of time at the range can only nail a moving target at 30 ft 38% of the time. Ghis is why unless a shar shooter is called in, it is several officers/agents unloading a HAILSTORM of bullets in the hoprs somebody lands one. Think about that. Every damn citizen who thinks they are Bruce Willis in Die Hard will mostly be shooting wild. They have a greater chance of killing an innocent person, one of their students, than of ever deliberately shooting the actual perp. The answer is not EVER to arm the teachers and staff. Sure, if they are National Guard like my nephew who has extensive weapons training, time on the range, more training than ANY of our police or sheriff deputies, and also has been taught significant descalation techniques, then maybe. But I don't see this nation deciding that our schools will be entirely staffed by the National Guard, Army, or Marine force. I don't see anyone even being willing to go into teaching if they have to go to West Point or Quantico or whatever in order to spend an entire year doing nothing but active shooter drills, and spending hundreds of hours on the shooting range.

People think they will be Ethan Hunt, John McClain, Clint Eastwood, or John Wayne when the time comes. 99% of the time they won't. They'll be Ernest P. Worl attempting to do the impossible. Not to mention that the one school in our area that told teachers they could carry on campus if they want to, ended up with the janitor finding an unsecured loaded gun on top of a teacher's desk unattended. I have heard stories of them being found in teacher's restrooms and such. No freaking thanks!

[SeaConquest]

6 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

We're tired and every child in this country will grow up with PTSD if we don't change.

Look at the mental health crisis among teens in this country. Do people really believe this is all about social media and screen time? It's pretty hard to stay above water mentally when you live in a country where there are mass shootings and climate disasters on the regular, homeless encampments in every major city, where over a million people died during a pandemic, bodycams frequently show law enforcement killing innocent people, the head of state tries to overturn an election and incites an angry mob to attack the capitol, education and health care are unaffordable, you could be forced to give birth against your will, the meager government retirement plan is almost bankrupt, you don't know if AI will take your job/destroy humanity, etc. Kids are watching our country crumble while the "adults" refuse to invest in infrastructure, hoard resources for themselves, pull the safety net ladder up behind them, and jockey to score political points instead of solving problems. It's enough to make anyone mentally unwell.        

ETA: Obviously many other countries are dealing with same/similar issues, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's different about the US vs the rest of the world in the face of these problems. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by SeaConquest

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I am willing to entertain the idea that there is something deeper wrong with our nation that we need to examine and fix. But in the meantime, what does it matter? If a victim is shot, who cares if they also have stage 2 cancer. Please treat the gunshot wound first before talking cancer treatment. In other words, dramatically limit the guns and access to them first. 

In recent years, gun ownership rates in the US have held relatively stable, but gun violence has gone up significantly, especially in high-risk demographics.

I disagree that the gun is the "mote in our eye" and all other efforts are relatively unimportant.

[mommyoffive]

The Nashville massacre was 129th mass shooting in the US so far this year, according to the Gun Violence Archive. The nation surpassed 100 mass shootings on March 5, a rate that is faster than any other year in the last decade.

Ex-student identified as Christian school shooter as six victims named

[Farrar]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

In recent years, gun ownership rates in the US have held relatively stable, but gun violence has gone up significantly, especially in high-risk demographics.

I disagree that the gun is the "mote in our eye" and all other efforts are relatively unimportant.

Rates of ownership have been steady, but the specific weapons and the sheer number have not.

To extend my metaphor, obviously cancer is a pretty significant health problem that also needs to be treated and would make a big difference to get treatment. But I stand by the idea that treating cancer while a patient bleeds out from a gunshot wound feels futile.

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Rates of ownership have been steady, but the specific weapons and the sheer number have not.

Ownership rates have actually increased significantly in the last several years.  “More recent data out of the US suggests that gun ownership grew significantly over the last few years. A study, published by the Annals of Internal Medicine in February, found that 7.5 million US adults became new gun owners between January 2019 and April 2021.”

BBC article on gun ownership in the US

[Faith-manor]

We are encouraging all of our adult children to find employment abroad if they can. We have one who is an electrical engineer, and he is a candidate to move to France. Right now they are super duper low on EE's, and they are very willing to train American EE's to meet their needs. I told him he should look. My sister is a permanent EU resident settled in France with her French husband, and ds does speak a modicum of French and is a fast learner. I think it is doable.

One son may, if he completes his PH.D, be a candidate for an academic job in Germany. He speaks and reads German and is considered fluent. He dreams in German as much as he does in English which I guess is a sign of being fully bi-lingual.

Our middle son is working on going to grad school in Denmark, and is culturally like his siblings, HalfDane. It makes it a smidge easier to emigrate though not significantly easier. He has studied Danish for years and is almost ready to take his Danish language test. We hope for his sake that he can go.

That leaves dd, son in law, and their three children. They have very few options. Until they can go, I am not willing to leave because I am not abandoning those grandbabies to the misery and despair of this country without the love and support of their Marmee. Not happening. But if they could go, then Mark and I are in an excellent position to take up retirement in several countries. We would need to sell the Alabama house, however that would not be a problem in the near term. That house though exists for the express purpose of the reality that things will get worse before they get better, and that the path to leave the US permanently is not easy, and as our country gets worse, may close entirely because a lot of nations will just say, "Hell no! No Americans can come. Keep your crazy back in North America." We chose this place not because he and I need 4000 sq ft and nearly 2 acres to care for in our old age, but so that as money gets tighter and tighter, and things get worse, our adult children have a place to hunker down. If they are housing insecure, they can come to us. If they lose their jobs, they can come to us.

My mother is not a barrier to our leaving. As a widowed mother in law of a French citizen and parent of EU resident, she can be declared their dependent and go live with them so long as they can show they can support her and she has a set amount of money in the bank. It isn't a huge amount of money. So we have already talked this over. My sister has prepared a bedroom for her, and in the coming year she will spend six months in France, six months here. If it gets worse, she will stay there, and we will visit. Mark's mom probably won't last more than another year.

We aren't preppers. But we truly also feel that the U.S. is a failed experiment. So no burying dehydrated food in the backyard and such. We don't subscribe to prepper magazines, go to their shows, and or anything like that. We own a hunting gun, and one air rifle for dispatching wayward coons and gophers. We make our short term decisions based on the assumption that life will be similar to this in the near future. Long term decisions definitely take into account the absolutely eminent issues of global climate change, increased violence, collapse of the healthcare system all together.

The sheer number of mass shootings coupled with the healthcare system insanity indicate to us that the U.S. is a failed experiment.

And all that said, only a tiny percentage of people can make it out of the States. So the need is not for emigration, but for somehow beginning to TRY to make it better for everyone. To quote the deputy National Security Advisor in season 7 of West Wing, and I can't remember the exact wording, but to the effect, "The shame might not be in failing to succeed, but in failing to even try." 

We need to stop letting the perfect become the enemy of the good. There aren't any full proof or even near full proof solutions. But ringing hands, thoughts and prayers, and never making an effort is what our children and grandchildren will judge us for. Not for being unable to stop all the carnage, just for refusing to try.

[Grace Hopper]

8 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

A few thoughts.

1. There's no way to discuss mass shootings anymore and keep politics out of it.  One can only be sad for so long - grief needs a stage of activism, not acceptance, if we are ever to change.

2. Dh and I have the ultimate goal of leaving the U.S.  Our skills are moving in the direction of being marketable in other areas.  Right now, my child goes to school but carries his phone on him.  I require it to be in his pocket at all times.  This way I know whether my kid is lying on the floor of a classroom or safely evacuated.  Several other parents have similar rules, either with phones or air tags for younger kids. 

3. My family has had enough "almosts" that we really think about open air shooters.  We've left a mall shortly before a mass shooter arrived.  We've left a hotel shortly before the SWAT team arrived.  We've been stuck in a Target whose policy is to throw the cage down all the doors if there is an emergency.  Online shopping is our friend.  We avoid large gatherings that don't have security.  Sending my kid to school every day is terrifying because I identified all the possible shooting entrances within the first week and can see how it would be done.

We're tired and every child in this country will grow up with PTSD if we don't change.

And this just from the required active shooter practice drills they do every semester, even if the only proximity to an actual shooting is on the news. The anticipation anxiety can have a huge impact. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[Carol in Cal.]

I agree that teachers might not shoot a perp if bad stuff starts.

But if the incidence of arms is as high in schools as in other places, or at least CAN BE and hence is suspected to be, then they are not such vulnerable targets and thus not as likely to be threatened.

I worked for years at a plant site for a Large Computer Firm, and the main office there got bomb threats every single day.  Every day.  The secretaries in the main building were trained in how to handle these, how to try to get information from the threatener, and how to decide whether to escalate the threat to authorities or not.  We had a wide open, campus-like setting, but with fences all the way around and guards at security gates.  You had to show a badge or pass to get past them.  I worked there for 18 years, and in that time there was one attempted fire bombing midday and one arson fire in another building overnight.  There was a computer stealing and breaking down ring that got busted, and there was a guy who got creepy access to some supposedly very secure areas and did a great deal of stealth vandalism over a period of about 6 months, reflecting inside knowledge of ‘what would hurt’.  That was it.  Bomb threats daily, and almost nothing IRL.  

It almost sounds quaint now.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Carol in Cal.

[prairiewindmomma]

I also agree that the type of gun owned matters. California instituted an assault ride ban some years ago, and fire arm mortality has dropped by 55%. Mass shootings have also dropped as additional restrictions went into place: https://www.gov.ca.gov/2022/06/02/fact-sheet-californias-gun-safety-policies-save-lives-provide-model-for-a-nation-seeking-solutions/

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

It is what people in the trans community call their birth names.  I didn’t create it.  I just know the term exists.  

Ah - thanks for clarifying. It’s  colloquial within that community, then. It isn’t in mine. 

[Innisfree]

8 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

And this just from the requires active shooter practice drills they do every semester, even if the only proximity to an actual shooting is on the news. The anticipation anxiety can have a huge impact. 

Yes. One of my kids was in a school that had a drill but didn’t inform students that it was a drill. The kids were terrified, crying, texting their parents to say goodbye. They were huddled together for more than an hour while police cleared the building room by room, and until they got out, they didn’t know it wasn’t real. This was a high school; I don’t know if the same thing happened at middle or heaven forbid elementary schools. Trauma results from drills as well as from actual shootings. We’re raising kids who are significantly scarred from being in that environment, even if a shooter doesn’t target their school.

[Spryte]

For anyone needing more clarification on the term dead name:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=deadname

I have mostly heard it as a verb, “dead named.” 
 

 

[Heartstrings]

12 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Ah - thanks for clarifying. It’s  colloquial within that community, then. It isn’t in mine. 

I didn’t realize it was so controversial in certain circles.  I’m not a member of that community but one picks things up.  I certainly didn’t realize it would cause so much trouble to use. 

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

In recent years, gun ownership rates in the US have held relatively stable, but gun violence has gone up significantly, especially in high-risk demographics.

I disagree that the gun is the "mote in our eye" and all other efforts are relatively unimportant.

What kinds of guns people have matters. 

[TechWife]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I didn’t realize it was so controversial in certain circles.  I’m not a member of that community but one picks things up.  I certainly didn’t realize it would cause so much trouble to use. 

It’s not controversial to me, I’ve just never heard it before. As the saying goes - “I learn something new every day. “

[Amy in NH]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

Look at the mental health crisis among teens in this country. Do people really believe this is all about social media and screen time? It's pretty hard to stay above water mentally when you live in a country where there are mass shootings and climate disasters on the regular, homeless encampments in every major city, where over a million people died during a pandemic, bodycams frequently show law enforcement killing innocent people, the head of state tries to overturn an election and incites an angry mob to attack the capitol, education and health care are unaffordable, you could be forced to give birth against your will, the meager government retirement plan is almost bankrupt, you don't know if AI will take your job/destroy humanity, etc. Kids are watching our country crumble while the "adults" refuse to invest in infrastructure, hoard resources for themselves, pull the safety net ladder up behind them, and jockey to score political points instead of solving problems. It's enough to make anyone mentally unwell.        

ETA: Obviously many other countries are dealing with same/similar issues, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's different about the US vs the rest of the world in the face of these problems. 

Exactly all of this!

[Amy in NH]

5 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

In certain states it’s going the opposite though.  The state I’m in is in a competition with neighboring states to see who can have the loosest gun laws. It’s ridiculous. 

I’m already seeing attacks online of trans people.  People are so primed to attack that community already, it only takes a tiny spark to set it off. I’m really concerned that it’s going to be violent.  

I'm in a state which is under attack by a group of extreme partisans, who have moved here from all over the country in an organized plan to take over and dismantle our state government - which of course includes eliminating any gun regulations.  (As an aside - for a group with "freedom" as the root of their name, they are also mighty quick to take away human rights from groups they don't like.)  This is MY state - I was born here, grew up here, and now I feel helpless to stop them.  So frustrating.

IMO, the shooting probably did happen because of LGBTQ+ related abuse the shooter suffered within the school or church where it happened.

[Heartstrings]

 

2 minutes ago, Amy in NH said:

MO, the shooting probably did happen because of LGBTQ+ related abuse the shooter suffered within the school or church where it happened.

I’m not seeing any discussion of the shooter having  attended the school under a pastor who was eventually excommunicated for abusing children over the course of many years.  We keep talking about how improvements to mental health care are needed, and this is a component of that.  As a society we sweep child abuse under the rug too often and too easily if the abuser is in a position of any sort of power.  It’s not excusing the shooter, obviously, but we have to take protecting children in all situations more seriously.  
 

(I’m sorry if this is insensitive to the forum member who is part of the church).