Christians who are anti Semitic.

[YaelAldrich]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

And converts? Seriously, I do not understand where you're coming from here. Are they non-Jews? Are the only acceptable Jews for stereotype purposes ethnic Jews?

No, she means that in the US and Europe the Jewish look (or food or culture etc) is the Ashkenazi one.  People are amazed there are/were Jewish communities in India, China, Morocco, Yemen, Uganda, Ethiopia, etc etc.   They are Jewish - 100% but people in the West think Seinfeld or Woody Allen.  Not Paula Abdul (Jewish).

[Jean in Newcastle]

53 minutes ago, bolt. said:

As a fairly clueless person, and a Canadian too, I'm not even aware of whether I know any Jewish people -- because how exactly would you know whether or not someone is Jewish??? It's not like they have an accent (like Scottish people, for example), or a distinctive style of dress (like people from India for example), and nobody goes around waving flags. It's not okay to just ask people, "Hey, just so I know, are you Jewish?"

It's something I've never really figured out, even though I've contemplated it since I first learned about the Holocaust as a child. I now know how one would have found out who was or wasn't Jewish in those days, with the power of the state. I still don't know how a person here and now would know just casually through social interaction, unless the Jewish person casually volunteered the info. I don't even know how people 'know' that certain celebrities, politicians, etc. are or aren't Jewish -- do they put it on the website?

I know because I talk to them and they mention going to Temple or having a bar mitzvah etc. We don’t debate it, it just comes up just as my being Christian comes up organically in conversation. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

And converts? Seriously, I do not understand where you're coming from here. Are they non-Jews? Are the only acceptable Jews for stereotype purposes ethnic Jews?

I'm coming from stereotypes that have a basis in reality 🤷‍♀️.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, YaelAldrich said:

No, she means that in the US and Europe the Jewish look (or food or culture etc) is the Ashkenazi one.  People are amazed there are/were Jewish communities in India, China, Morocco, Yemen, Uganda, Ethiopia, etc etc.   They are Jewish - 100% but people in the West think Seinfeld or Woody Allen.  Not Paula Abdul (Jewish).

I'm, obviously, jaded. I wait for people to show and tell me who they are/reveal their priorities.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm coming from stereotypes that have a basis in reality 🤷‍♀️.

Good luck to those trying to ID people this way!

[Scarlett]

I am pretty sure I have never met a person of Jewish ethnicity or a person of Jewish faith.  
My physical life has been pretty sheltered.  

[MercyA]

.

Edited March 11, 2023 by MercyA

[Farrar]

I've known multiple people who identify as both African-American and Jewish or Asian-American and Jewish because of mixed heritage, conversion, adoption, etc. I'm also aware of what's been referenced here - that there are African, Asian, Indian, etc. Jewish folks in those places too. It's natural to identify people physically. I think it's pointless to deny that there are actual physical characteristics shared by a large number of American Jews, just like it would be silly to deny that we can see skin tone and that impacts how we interact with people around race. But also there's an uncomfortable element to using that as a basis of identification for a huge number of reasons. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Farrar

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

 But even Religious Jews who do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah do not deserve hate.  Jesus had strong words for the hypocritical religious (Jewish) leaders of his day in large part because of how they treated the common people. He did not have contempt for the Jewish people.  

Yes, absolutely. Jesus even wept over Jerusalem and its people. He loved them deeply.

[Melissa Louise]

I know Jewish atheists, mostly.

I know they have a culturally Jewish identity the same way I know anything about anyone - by getting to know them.

As a child growing up Catholic, I understood that the so-called reason for anti-Semitism amongst Christians was that Jews were considered to be killers of Christ.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I've known multiple people who identify as both African-American and Jewish or Asian-American and Jewish because of mixed heritage, conversion, adoption, etc. I'm also aware of what's been referenced here - that there are African, Asian, Indian, etc. Jewish folks in those places too. It's natural to identify people physically. I think it's pointless to deny that there are actual physical characteristics shared by a large number of American Jews, just like it would be silly to deny that we can see skin tone and that impacts how we interact with people around race. But also there's an uncomfortable element to using that as a basis of identification for a huge number of reasons. 

Perhaps because my family is so multiracial, multiethnic, and unidentifiable by facial characteristics, I find this very offensive and wrong.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Sneezyone

[YaelAldrich]

15 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I live in rural Indiana. The nearest closest actual city (not town) must have a fair number of (practicing? Orthodox?) Jewish people because I often see them while shopping there. We have so many different modest-dressing religious groups around here (Amish, Mennonite, German Baptist, Pentecostal, Apostolic Christian, etc.) I have gotten pretty good at telling them apart. 🙂 

The Jewish women usually wear long skirts and are always covered past their elbows too. They sometimes wear a head covering and sometimes a wig. The little girls are easy to spot with their long skirts, tights, and long-sleeve shirts even when it is warm. They tend to wear different colors and styles than the Christian groups (less floral, more black, more trendy stuff). The dads and boys sometimes have yarmulkes and sidecurls. 

My mom went to high school in that city in the 60's and had a lot of Jewish friends.

Is it SB? There is a small community there. Indianapolis had a small (er) community as well. Not everyone who is Orthodox Jewish dresses in a distinctive manner. Some dress much as "regular" people do. 

[fairfarmhand]

48 minutes ago, Amira said:

But back to the original question, Christians often can’t even tell their founding story without a healthy dose of anti-semitism.  It’s built in and if they don’t pay attention, they’ll continue to perpetuate it.

I have no idea about this. Please tell me more.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Perhaps because my family is so multiracial, multiethnic, and unidentifiable by facial characteristics, I find this very offensive and wrong.

What exactly is offensive though?

I think it's really wrong to make assumptions about identity. But I also know that we can't stop ourselves from noticing physical traits. And there are ethnic Ashkenazi Jewish ethnic physical traits. That's just how genetics works. I think naming that those things sometimes exist but also being aware of how easily making those assumptions about identity can lead us down the wrong path is the only way to approach it.

Ages ago, I had a Black student whose family were observant Jews. She was adopted. I keep thinking it must make someone like her feel really distanced from her cultural heritage to hear the idea that Jews can all be spotted on sight or deal with the assumption that they can. But also, physical traits have been part of the prejudice against Jews for centuries and not being aware of that also feels wrong to me.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

What exactly is offensive though?

I think it's really wrong to make assumptions about identity. But I also know that we can't stop ourselves from noticing physical traits. And there are ethnic Ashkenazi Jewish ethnic physical traits. That's just how genetics works. I think naming that those things sometimes exist but also being aware of how easily making those assumptions about identity can lead us down the wrong path is the only way to approach it.

Ages ago, I had a Black student whose family were observant Jews. She was adopted. I keep thinking it must make someone like her feel really distanced from her cultural heritage to hear the idea that Jews can all be spotted on sight or deal with the assumption that they can. But also, physical traits have been part of the prejudice against Jews for centuries and not being aware of that also feels wrong to me.

I think pretending this isn't real is offensive to people's lived experience. Like DH, who would dearly love NOT to look as Jewish as he does, because it was nothing but a problem in his childhood and has left scars. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Farrar said:

What exactly is offensive though?

I think it's really wrong to make assumptions about identity. But I also know that we can't stop ourselves from noticing physical traits. And there are ethnic Ashkenazi Jewish ethnic physical traits. That's just how genetics works. I think naming that those things sometimes exist but also being aware of how easily making those assumptions about identity can lead us down the wrong path is the only way to approach it.

Ages ago, I had a Black student whose family were observant Jews. She was adopted. I keep thinking it must make someone like her feel really distanced from her cultural heritage to hear the idea that Jews can all be spotted on sight or deal with the assumption that they can. But also, physical traits have been part of the prejudice against Jews for centuries and not being aware of that also feels wrong to me.

Making assumptions based on facial features in an increasingly multiracial/multiethnic world strikes me as wrong. I recognize that people often do this but I don't/wouldn't recommend it. Those assumptions underlie the 'I've never met a Jewish person' statements. 

I don't disagree that being a practicing Jew as a black person *might* make you feel disconnected from your cultural heritage but that's not necessarily true either. I've found marginalized groups (LGBTQIA, Mormon, Jewish) to be far more in tune/intentional with respect to talking/teaching about difference than others. And, the 'physical' traits most commonly associated with Jews in the early 20th century don't match any of those that I know practice today. YMMV.

[SKL]

Another aspect of the "looks Jewish" conversation is that we can't deny it in the context of anti-Semitism.  During the Holocaust and other trends of anti-Semitic behaviors, people who "looked Jewish" were at higher risk than those Jewish people who could "blend in" to Gentile communities.

I think that if a Jewish person wants to say that some people "look Jewish," that's their prerogative.

Personally, I agree that there's a look that can be associated with "more likely to be Jewish," at least in areas where there are a lot of Jewish people.  I'll go one further and say that people's first and last names can be a possible clue.  Obviously you can't draw conclusions based on that, but it can make you more observant about certain things.  For what purpose, you may ask?  Well, besides just finding diversity interesting, it can help us make more sensitive decisions.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Making assumptions based on facial features in an increasingly multiracial/multiethnic world strikes me as wrong. I recognize that people often do this but I don't/wouldn't recommend it. Those assumptions underlie the 'I've never met a Jewish person' statements. 

I don't disagree that being a practicing Jew as a black person *might* make you feel disconnected from your cultural heritage but that's not necessarily true either. I've found marginalized groups (LGBTQIA, Mormon, Jewish) to be far more in tune/intentional with respect to talking/teaching about difference than others. And, the 'physical' traits most commonly associated with Jews in the early 20th century don't match any of those that I know practice today. YMMV.

I don't think we disagree. I don't know. There's a lived difference in experience between someone in a group who can pass and someone who can't. There's also a big downside to passing for a bunch of psychological reasons. You're absolutely right that people I know who don't fit neatly into a visible mold with their underlying identification often are the most astute in discussing identity though.

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another aspect of the "looks Jewish" conversation is that we can't deny it in the context of anti-Semitism.  During the Holocaust and other trends of anti-Semitic behaviors, people who "looked Jewish" were at higher risk than those Jewish people who could "blend in" to Gentile communities.

Makes me think of this story, about the baby used in Nazi propaganda as the perfect Aryan, who was actually Jewish:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/07/the-perfect-aryan-child-the-nazis-used-in-propaganda-was-actually-jewish/

Or the bit in Europa Europa (anyone else know that film?) where the Jewish kid who's hiding and posing as a German gentile gets racially analyzed as being a-okay in his Nazi school.

[YaelAldrich]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Making assumptions based on facial features in an increasingly multiracial/multiethnic world strikes me as wrong. I recognize that people often do this but I don't/wouldn't recommend it. Those assumptions underlie the 'I've never met a Jewish person' statements. 

I don't disagree that being a practicing Jew as a black person *might* make you feel disconnected from your cultural heritage but that's not necessarily true either. I've found marginalized groups (LGBTQIA, Mormon, Jewish) to be far more in tune/intentional with respect to talking/teaching about difference than others. And, the 'physical' traits most commonly associated with Jews in the early 20th century don't match any of those that I know practice today. YMMV.

With my lived knowledge I can tell you that (Ashkenazi, Western, especially American) Jews do not usually identify me as Jewish at first glance. Even though I dress just like them, speak like them, act like them. I have been a practicing Orthodox Jew for well over 25 years and speak passible Hebrew and even some Yiddish. From Sephardi (Jews from North Africa/Middle East) Jews, they try to pin me as one of them because of my skin tone. 

Intersectional Jews (non -White Jews) have a hard time in Western Judaism. It's partially regular old racism, but also partially the Ashkenazi (Western European ) safety measure of circling the wagons to protect their fellow Jews. Sephardic Jews didn't do that. 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Or the bit in Europa Europa (anyone else know that film?) where the Jewish kid who's hiding and posing as a German gentile gets racially analyzed as being a-okay in his Nazi school.

Yes, so many of the survivors had to "blend in," and let's think about how painful that must have been on many levels.  To have to deny the heritage one has been raised to consider very important.  To lose everything that was theirs, down to their name and their most precious connections.  To be chosen over their friends and family members for reasons having nothing to do with actual worth.  To be lying about everything important even to your best friends.  To be always afraid that a momentary slip will mean a second loss of absolutely everything.

Yeah, denial is a whole nother layer of cruelty.

[Amira]

45 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I have no idea about this. Please tell me more.

Any part in particular?  Until the 1950s, there were lots of Sephardi/Mizrahi Jews living throughout the Islamic world from Morocco to Yemen to Iran and Afghanistan.  They spoke Arabic, Farsi, and other local languages and shared similar cultural traditions.  In Egypt, for example, Muslims would pray at the tomb of Musa ibn Maiman/Maimonides in his synagogue in Cairo and Christians, Muslims, and Jews all had saints they honored and everyone came to all the celebrations.  Jews in the Middle East were largely (but certainly not entirely) unaffected by the Holocaust because they were outside Nazi rule, but after the creation of the state of Israel, most were forced to leave their home countries and immigrated to the US, Israel, or western Europe.  A clear majority of Jews in the world are Ashkenazi, but in Israel, most Jews are Sephardic or Mizrahi (although European Jews in Israel have had more political power than non-European Jews).  

The Jews we knew in Mexico were part of a centuries-old Sephardic community that originated in Spain. 

[MercyA]

.

Edited March 11, 2023 by MercyA

[Sneezyone]

52 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

With my lived knowledge I can tell you that (Ashkenazi, Western, especially American) Jews do not usually identify me as Jewish at first glance. Even though I dress just like them, speak like them, act like them. I have been a practicing Orthodox Jew for well over 25 years and speak passible Hebrew and even some Yiddish. From Sephardi (Jews from North Africa/Middle East) Jews, they try to pin me as one of them because of my skin tone. 

Intersectional Jews (non -White Jews) have a hard time in Western Judaism. It's partially regular old racism, but also partially the Ashkenazi (Western European ) safety measure of circling the wagons to protect their fellow Jews. Sephardic Jews didn't do that. 

Totally understand. I'm allergic to centering Western anything as the norm. The world is significantly larger than the West and it upsets me that it is used as the default to the detriment of the rest of the planet. 

[YaelAldrich]

14 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Totally understand. I'm allergic to centering Western anything as the norm. The world is significantly larger than the West and it upsets me that it is used as the default to the detriment of the rest of the planet. 

I agree with you but my family and I still need to live in this world, broken though it is. So I teach my children to be aware these people and these feelings exist. Two of my kids have since opted out of religious Judaism, at least partially because of this. 

[Sneezyone]

24 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

I agree with you but my family and I still need to live in this world, broken though it is. So I teach my children to be aware these people and these feelings exist. Two of my kids have since opted out of religious Judaism, at least partially because of this. 

This makes me so sad. I'm sorry. 

[JennyD]

For anyone interested in this topic, I cannot recommend highly enough Dara Horn's absolutely brilliant book, People Love Dead Jews.  Her thesis, which opens the chapter on Anne Frank, is: "People love dead Jews.  Living Jews, not so much."

The passage that I have thought about over and over again is this one: "Since ancient times, in every place they have ever lived, Jews have represented the frightening prospect of freedom.  As long as Jews existed in any society, there was evidence that in fact it wasn't necessary to believe what everyone else believed, that those who disagreed with their neighbors could survive and even flourish against all odds."

And this article, by Yair Rosenberg, is the other very best thing I have ever read about antisemitism.  His central point is that antisemitism isn't really about Jews at all; rather, it's a deeply pernicious conspiracy theory about the way the world works.  (He also has a video series, available here).

Finally, some recent and very thought-provoking research about antisemitic attitudes in different ideological/demographic groups in America.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by JennyD

[gardenmom5]

7 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

s/o from another thread

 

 I don’t understand Christians being antisemitic. Christ was a fully Jewish man. He observed Jewish holidays and rituals and those things were intended to point to Him. If you read the New Testament epistles you see that due to Christ’s death Gentiles all “became Jewish” (grafted in if I remember the biblical terminology correctly) though they were free from the observance of the Old Testament laws (certain sects of Christianity still follow certain Old Testament laws) so I’ve never understood the idea of a Christ follower becoming antisemitic. 
Even calling Jews Christ killer doesn’t make sense because he was crucified by Roman’s with the assistance of the Jewish leaders, and his death was intended as redemption of all mankind. 
so why?

Why does a bully bully?  

There seem to be certain Christian denominations that seem to have a preponderance of antisemites, but not all.  Some are quite supportive.

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

For anyone interested in this topic, I cannot recommend highly enough Dara Horn's absolutely brilliant book, People Love Dead Jews.  Her thesis, which opens the chapter on Anne Frank, is: "People love dead Jews.  Living Jews, not so much."

The passage that I have thought about over and over again is this one: "Since ancient times, in every place they have ever lived, Jews have represented the frightening prospect of freedom.  As long as Jews existed in any society, there was evidence that in fact it wasn't necessary to believe what everyone else believed, that those who disagreed with their neighbors could survive and even flourish against all odds."

And this article, by Yair Rosenberg, is the other very best thing I have ever read about antisemitism.  His central point is that antisemitism isn't really about Jews at all; rather, it's a deeply pernicious conspiracy theory about the way the world works.  (He also has a video series, available here).

Finally, some recent and very thought-provoking research about antisemitic attitudes in different ideological/demographic groups in America.

 

Thanks for sharing these links.

The research paper actually answered my question on a prior thread.

[Laura Corin]

9 hours ago, bolt. said:

I see. People would just talk about those things with workmates, their kids' friends' parents, people they participate in sports with, etc? I guess I'm not that close to that many people overall. I'd be surprised if many of my acquaintances were to mention their religious life in casual settings. (It could be one of those differences between Canadian and American culture too. I rarely bring up my religious activities in general conversation either.)

That's the same in the UK. I know whether very close friends are religious,  because religion has come up as one topic of interest among many. People who are just general acquaintances/colleagues seem to treat religious observance as a private matter. It has usually only come up if a religious obligation clashes with some proposed social event.

[YaelAldrich]

Here's a writer I respect staying a series about this very topic!  https://eladnehorai.substack.com/p/myths-about-antisemitism-1-antisemitism

[Amira]

I’ve started to encourage Christians to use Amy-Jill Levine’s books.  She’s a Jewish New Testament scholar who actively works to help Christians see the anti-Semitism inherent in their teaching and change their narratives. She’s written several books that Christians can use in their Bible study groups.  This can be especially useful for Christians who don’t ever get a chance to interact with Jews in their communities.

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

That's the same in the UK. I know whether very close friends are religious,  because religion has come up as one topic of interest among many. People who are just general acquaintances/colleagues seem to treat religious observance as a private matter. It has usually only come up if a religious obligation clashes with some proposed social event.

I don’t consider asking a neighbor child about Christmas and them mentioning that they celebrate Hanukah to be “discussing religion “. Or someone else saying “I can’t attend the neighborhood bbq because of my nephew’s bar mitzvah” to be “discussing religion “ anymore than me saying “I went on a beautiful hike after church “ to be “discussing religion “. 
 

(I can also tell the religion of some neighbors by the mezuzah affixed to their doorway. Or the altar in my Buddhist neighbor’s house or my Hindu neighbor’s house or the plaque with a Bible verse in my Christian neighbor’s house). I don’t tend to bring up those things but I can see them. 

[MercyA]

4 minutes ago, Amira said:

I’ve started to encourage Christians to use Amy-Jill Levine’s books.  She’s a Jewish New Testament scholar who actively works to help Christians see the anti-Semitism inherent in their teaching and change their narratives. She’s written several books that Christians can use in their Bible study groups.  This can be especially useful for Christians who don’t ever get a chance to interact with Jews in their communities.

I didn't know she writes books for adults! I really like her retelling of the parable of the Good Samaritan in the picture book Who Is My Neighbor? I used it for my Sunday School class and the kids loved it. 🙂 

[Acorn]

14 hours ago, bolt. said:

I see. People would just talk about those things with workmates, their kids' friends' parents, people they participate in sports with, etc? I guess I'm not that close to that many people overall. I'd be surprised if many of my acquaintances were to mention their religious life in casual settings. (It could be one of those differences between Canadian and American culture too. I rarely bring up my religious activities in general conversation either.)

I've also kind of assumed that there are plenty of Jewish people who aren't really observant, and it wouldn't come up in their chatting about daily life. Those people are Jewish too. In Canada there are *far* more nominal Christians than their are observant Christians... maybe my assumption that a similar ratio would hold true for Judaism is unfounded?

I am often surprised that in my area of the Midwest US, people ask one another after introductions, “Where do you go to church?” I grew up in a different area of the Midwest and this would have been rude to inquire. I don’t practice any religion so sometimes the conversation will just follow another small talk topic. Other times, I have thought/felt it to be a relationship stopper.

 

 

[Faith-manor]

23 minutes ago, Acorn said:

I am often surprised that in my area of the Midwest US, people ask one another after introductions, “Where do you go to church?” I grew up in a different area of the Midwest and this would have been rude to inquire. I don’t practice any religion so sometimes the conversation will just follow another small talk topic. Other times, I have thought/felt it to be a relationship stopper.

 

 

It happens a lot here, and it is very off putting. It generally makes me wary of the person because that is not an organic way for the topic to come up. It is especially hard now that we have deconverted. We do not practice any religion which makes us quite suspect, but for fun, we like to follow some Viking traditions from Dh's heritage which means celebrating winter and summer solstice, Jul, and having a Nisse house in the yard. In this very predominately conservative, Christian town, we are viewed with deep suspicion because of it, and have had the cute Nisse house vandalized more than once. It just has little elf and fairy furniture in it.  But when my grandsons are here, they leave treats and trinkets for the Nisse so I guess combined with our Go`d Jul sign, and Viking tree of life ornament on the Christmas tree our front, it is a bridge too far foe the neighbors or something. It could also be that everyone has figured out that we have deconverted so they assume combined with the little viking/Norse things, we have joined another religion. I try not to let it bother me too much, but I have a hard time because vandalizing property is NOT cool.

[shawthorne44]

I've never met anyone anti-Semitic.  Like the OP I don't understand it.  I had been engaged once before DH, and no one batted an eye that he was Jewish.  I've never heard anyone say anything bad about Jews.   I used to regularly pay poker with a guy that was Jewish and he thought that because I was Christian who went to church, I was therefore anti-Semitic, or I at least heard that filth spewed in church.   But never have.  If Jews are mention it is with things like the First Covenant or God's Children.   

Well, I take that back, my Evil Grandmother hated Jews.  But, she truly hated everyone.  She was very egalitarian that way.  

 

[MEmama]

5 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

That's the same in the UK. I know whether very close friends are religious,  because religion has come up as one topic of interest among many. People who are just general acquaintances/colleagues seem to treat religious observance as a private matter. It has usually only come up if a religious obligation clashes with some proposed social event.

That's how it is in much of New England (where I live) as well. Religion just doesn't come up. 

 

[Eos]

I live within a very progressive community and I'm shocked at how often seemingly liberal, even progressive people will say very casually anti-Semitic things for instance describing someone who is not religious as "very Jewish" meaning something like spoiled ("princess") or overly concerned about money.  Others might disagree but I equate perpetuating stereotypes with anti-Semitic even if these types of statements do not express hatred.

[bibiche]

For anyone who is interested in learning a bit more about Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities through good food, may I recommend the excellent book by Claudia Roden, The Book of Jewish Food. 

[Dmmetler]

I had one Jewish kid in my classes through school. It was made clear in many ways. For example, in elementary school, we had Weekly religious education, where the entire grade would walk down the block to a church, Protestants went to a class that pretty much taught nothing (memorized bible verses and colored pictures), Catholics did catechism, and Aaron studied Hebrew (I really liked the idea of getting to learn Hebrew, but my mom refused to claim we were Jewish). When we read  Anne Frank, guess who was expected to explain Judaism? The same thing happenedin history, repeatedly. Inhigh school, when we had AP study sessions, they had to end early so that "Aaron can get to synagogue on time". There literally was something every year where this poor kid was held out as something different. And this was in public schools. In retrospect, Aaron was definitely treated as a model minority-he was this sweet, extremely smart kid, but was never allowed to just be. And I can easily imagine that leading to resentment. Furthermore, often when Aaron was called on to explain was in context of stereotypes at best and often outright racism, so if anyone missed that, say, Shylock was a Jewish stereotype when first reading the play, it got called out in class. 

I'm betting every single teacher would have said that they weren't antisemetic at all, and that they loved Aaron. I'm also guessing Aaron has different views of his K-12 experiences. 

[SKL]

39 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

I've never met anyone anti-Semitic.  Like the OP I don't understand it.  I had been engaged once before DH, and no one batted an eye that he was Jewish.  I've never heard anyone say anything bad about Jews.   I used to regularly pay poker with a guy that was Jewish and he thought that because I was Christian who went to church, I was therefore anti-Semitic, or I at least heard that filth spewed in church.   But never have.  If Jews are mention it is with things like the First Covenant or God's Children.   

Well, I take that back, my Evil Grandmother hated Jews.  But, she truly hated everyone.  She was very egalitarian that way.  

I think it is generational here.  My grandma was an immigrant from Hungary and I remember her speaking in derogatory ways about Jews, but even as a young child I knew that was wrong.  Mi mom, who has recent Jewish ancestors, Jewish friends, etc., was known to use some terminology (such as “Jewed down” along with “gypped” etc.) that I eventually recognized as inappropriate.  I don’t see this in my generation.

[J-rap]

Interestingly, the same people in my life who used to talk about Jews being Jesus-killers now talk about needing to save Israel no matter what because of end-of-time beliefs (and people groups who do not support that are therefore an enemy).  Particular church cultures seem to constantly need an "enemy" to react to.  I guess being angry and defending your cause feels more powerful and real than simply loving all people.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

That's how it is in much of New England (where I live) as well. Religion just doesn't come up. 

 

I am a Christian. I believe in evangelism- ie giving the gospel. I also believe in waiting to be asked outright. And I have been asked outright many times to answer Christiancentric questions or in the case of one workmate, to “tell me about God”. I oblige (but not on company time). 90% of the time they don’t ask further and I don’t push it further. I don’t believe in “leading every conversation to Christ “ or in trying to trick people into a conversation about God. But I also am honest that my dh is a pastor or that I go to church and people can see my life as lived. (Which isn’t always a good testimony.)  I don’t live in a part of the country where a lot of people go to church  

Anyway, to bring it back to the original topic, my Jewish neighbor’s wife once asked a very specific question about a funeral we had just been to. We answered honestly. Her husband heard and came at us in a rage because they were Jewish and how dare we bring up this topic . I stopped him, explained that we were answering a question and that they were free to excuse themselves and walk away anytime (we were outside in the garden so no one was pinned down). He calmed down and apologized. We’re still friendly neighbors over ten years later. 

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, bibiche said:

For anyone who is interested in learning a bit more about Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities through good food, may I recommend the excellent book by Claudia Roden, The Book of Jewish Food. 

Oh yes, and the food! Two absolutely incredible food cultures.

I'm going to share a video made by the band 8th Day. The lead singer, Shmuel Marcus (who is the checker in the linked video), had a "side gig" as "the pickle Rabbi" and years ago I had the pleasure of sitting in on his class. His brother Bentzion is playing guitar and doing backing vocals. I worked with a third brother on video projects.

The video is for a song called "Ya'alili," that celebrates the rich mash-up of Jewish life offered up by Ashkenazic and Sephardic traditions, with a little Arabic thrown in. Kinda fun, even if one doesn't understand a word.

Bill

 

rw7s

Edited January 15, 2023 by Spy Car

[Xahm]

18 hours ago, Farrar said:

Makes me think of this story, about the baby used in Nazi propaganda as the perfect Aryan, who was actually Jewish:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/07/the-perfect-aryan-child-the-nazis-used-in-propaganda-was-actually-jewish/

Or the bit in Europa Europa (anyone else know that film?) where the Jewish kid who's hiding and posing as a German gentile gets racially analyzed as being a-okay in his Nazi school.

I watched that movie in German class back in high school. I remember it as good but very intense. I should rewatch. Mostly I remember it as when I learned that near-universal circumcision of males is a fairly recent American thing, which had to have been interesting for my teacher to explain.

I can see (though it's obviously morally wrong) how/why Jewish people were made the scapegoats for years in European history. When almost everyone has one set of beliefs and customs, and there's a small group living alongside with different rules, beliefs, etc, that was probably threatening to leaders. I think someone above pointed that out. What puzzles me is how this survives in a multicultural environment. Maybe people who are upset and angry start "researching" and find old racist screeds, then decide it resonates? Does current antisemitism tend to lump all non-white people together but led by Jewish people? 

 

[Carrie12345]

Upfront - I’m speaking kinda out of turn here, but my Northern NJ brain is shocked that anyone is offended by the plain fact that *many* Jews have Jewish features.   
Italians tend to have Italian features. Koreans tend to have Korean features. Hawaiiens tend to have Hawaiian features. And Jews tend to have Jewish features.

They also tend to have Jewish names.

Now, *I* have a pretty Jewishish last name, but am not Jewish. People do make assumptions. It’s never bothered me.

[bolt.]

9 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don’t consider asking a neighbor child about Christmas and them mentioning that they celebrate Hanukah to be “discussing religion “. Or someone else saying “I can’t attend the neighborhood bbq because of my nephew’s bar mitzvah” to be “discussing religion “ anymore than me saying “I went on a beautiful hike after church “ to be “discussing religion “. 
 

(I can also tell the religion of some neighbors by the mezuzah affixed to their doorway. Or the altar in my Buddhist neighbor’s house or my Hindu neighbor’s house or the plaque with a Bible verse in my Christian neighbor’s house). I don’t tend to bring up those things but I can see them. 

Yeah, you see, around here, while a neighbour *child* might be likely to segue a conversation from Christmas to Hanukah, an adult would be more likely to wish you a "Merry Christmas" and decline to discuss what they do or don't practice themselves. Similarly people would be likely to say "family event" (rather than specify which religious event was interfering with the BBQ) and that they went hiking on "Sunday afternoon".

People who specifically mention their religious choices in the ways that seem normal to you in your area come off a little smug or pretentious in cultures where religious observance is more unusual than it is the norm. I don't know quite how to say it. It comes off a little like someone who is training for a marathon and wants everyone to know it, so they keep slipping it into conversation, ("Yes, the weather is lovely, My 2 hour training run was such a pleasure." / "Sorry, I can't make it to the BBQ because I'm running that day.") Or someone who has been dieting, or who has a MLM product to sell you, or who has a kid in an elite sport. Yes, there are true things that they can say, that are relevant to the conversation, and they are true aspects of their life etc. But mostly if people don't need to know, you don't share that kind of stuff. And if you do share, you kind-of come off as someone who is eager for others to know all about your religious life, which is a bit smarmy in a non-religious culture.

(I'm not suggesting you should stop doing it in your own part of the world. I'm just exploring for myself what feelings and perceptions seem to be in play for the reasons that I, and most other people, don't drop these bits of our lives into our casual conversations. In fact, it seems like we actively avoid it. In comparison to a culture where it's normal to chat about it, it seems maybe unhealthy to be actively secretive. It's worth reflecting on for me.)

[MEmama]

4 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Yeah, you see, around here, while a neighbour *child* might be likely to segue a conversation from Christmas to Hanukah, an adult would be more likely to wish you a "Merry Christmas" and decline to discuss what they do or don't practice themselves. Similarly people would be likely to say "family event" (rather than specify which religious event was interfering with the BBQ) and that they went hiking on "Sunday afternoon".

People who specifically mention their religious choices in the ways that seem normal to you in your area come off a little smug or pretentious in cultures where religious observance is more unusual than it is the norm. I don't know quite how to say it. It comes off a little like someone who is training for a marathon and wants everyone to know it, so they keep slipping it into conversation, ("Yes, the weather is lovely, My 2 hour training run was such a pleasure." / "Sorry, I can't make it to the BBQ because I'm running that day.") Or someone who has been dieting, or who has a MLM product to sell you, or who has a kid in an elite sport. Yes, there are true things that they can say, that are relevant to the conversation, and they are true aspects of their life etc. But mostly if people don't need to know, you don't share that kind of stuff. And if you do share, you kind-of come off as someone who is eager for others to know all about your religious life, which is a bit smarmy in a non-religious culture.

(I'm not suggesting you should stop doing it in your own part of the world. I'm just exploring for myself what feelings and perceptions seem to be in play for the reasons that I, and most other people, don't drop these bits of our lives into our casual conversations. In fact, it seems like we actively avoid it. In comparison to a culture where it's normal to chat about it, it seems maybe unhealthy to be actively secretive. It's worth reflecting on for me.)

This is very New England, too. It's a...quieter...culture than some other areas. 🙂 

[Guest]

22 hours ago, SKL said:

Although I have worked with men who wore the Yarmulke to work at various times, there are other ways these things naturally come out.  "I can't this weekend, I'm attending my nephew's Bris / Bar Mitzvah."  "I need to drop __ off at Hebrew School."  Their resume or published bio may show them active in Jewish organizations.  They may mention relatives who have immigrated from/to Israel and/or had some personal connection with Holocaust survivors; people with interesting life stories tend to share them.

I agree, and I have been in communities that are more Jewish than any other group; namely, in law firms. Three of the four law firms I have worked at in my life were majority Jewish. 
 

Most people would reveal this due to events, like SKL said: Bris, Bar/Bat Mitzvah; or traditions and holidays, or language and foods (for example, “he’s a mensch”). Also, surnames or naming of babies. Most of the Jewish people I have worked with had Jewish surnames or when they named their children, they gave  traditionally Hebrew names.