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Do people in ed admin smell their baloney, or are they that indoctrinated?


Carrie12345
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This is an honest question.

I got my school district’s newsletter in the mail yesterday, and the front page article, written by our curriculum & instruction person (with a PhD,) is on the importance of kindergarten. Now, I don’t exactly knock kindergarten.  It’s a valid option that should always be available to all children/families. But the article is just full of garbage, in addition to sounding like an essay written by an 8th grader, with questionable punctuation.

”Where do you think a student learns how to raise their hand? Or sit on a rug square? Not climb up the slide?”  These are the questions posed in the 4th of 6.5 paragraphs. (Points for diverting from the formulaic 5. Subtraction for the lackluster conclusion sentence tacked on to the end.)

I KNOW there are some crummy parents out there, but I deeply resent the idea that we should all be spoken to as if that’s us.  Not necessarily for the specific examples pegged, though I was that mom at the playground who’s kids weren’t allowed to climb up the slide, my weirdos raise their hands at home when they can’t get a word in edgewise, and no one has ever needed to sit on a carpet square. It’s the insistence that an institution is absolutely necessary to make functional humans and parents are insufficient by “nature”. It just feels gross.

 

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I agree with you, and especially the carpet square. 😂

As for the slide, I have seen nature cure children of that. The ones that often insist upon climbing up the slide get plowed into by children at the top who are not willing to wait any longer for their chance to go down.  Not to mention that even if a child arrived at 1st grade without having practiced the infamous hand raising, they catch on quickly because it isn't rocket science! 

Good grief. If I were making a case for kindergarten, it would not be any of these points. 

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14 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

This is an honest question.

I got my school district’s newsletter in the mail yesterday, and the front page article, written by our curriculum & instruction person (with a PhD,) is on the importance of kindergarten. Now, I don’t exactly knock kindergarten.  It’s a valid option that should always be available to all children/families. But the article is just full of garbage, in addition to sounding like an essay written by an 8th grader, with questionable punctuation.

”Where do you think a student learns how to raise their hand? Or sit on a rug square? Not climb up the slide?”  These are the questions posed in the 4th of 6.5 paragraphs. (Points for diverting from the formulaic 5. Subtraction for the lackluster conclusion sentence tacked on to the end.)

I KNOW there are some crummy parents out there, but I deeply resent the idea that we should all be spoken to as if that’s us.  Not necessarily for the specific examples pegged, though I was that mom at the playground who’s kids weren’t allowed to climb up the slide, my weirdos raise their hands at home when they can’t get a word in edgewise, and no one has ever needed to sit on a carpet square. It’s the insistence that an institution is absolutely necessary to make functional humans and parents are insufficient by “nature”. It just feels gross.

 

This stuff drives me crazy.  All of it.  

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True story:

I sent my kid to kindergarten fully literate.  I went in for my first parent-teacher conference and sat down to a teacher say very condescendingly, "he didn't go to preschool, did he?"

Me: no, why?

Teacher: He didn't know when to stand in line.

Me: <blank stare>

 

That should have been my first clue this wasn't the greatest school.  He was so much happier at home when we took him out of there.

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My guess is the writer is both indoctrinated AND has a conscious ulterior motive. Probably funding. They’re definitely being ridiculous to think it’s appropriate for 5 year olds to sit still most of the day or have the sorts of academic assignments that are more appropriate for 7 year olds. 

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Seriously, children are not cattle. They just aren't. Standing line! 🙄 

Pretty certain they can learn that waiting in line to buy movie tickets, or waiting for their seat at the school band concert, or to pay for groceries at Wal-Mart or whatever. It isn't the end of the universe to say to a child, "go stand in line". Sheesh.

It is very concerning when the people charged with education are unable to think at all critically.

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32 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree with you, and especially the carpet square. 😂

As for the slide, I have seen nature cure children of that. The ones that often insist upon climbing up the slide get plowed into by children at the top who are not willing to wait any longer for their chance to go down.  Not to mention that even if a child arrived at 1st grade without having practiced the infamous hand raising, they catch on quickly because it isn't rocket science! 

Good grief. If I were making a case for kindergarten, it would not be any of these points. 

I have zero patience for kids who climb up slides while others are trying to slide down. My child had their leg broken by an up-climber who tangled himself with mine and broke their leg. Mothers of kids who climb up while others are sliding down are some of the most annoying people. Their kids are just misunderstood, energetic babes with free spirits.

You want to use a slide as a climbing apparatus? Watch your darn kid and teach him its safe only when others are not waiting their turn.

Edited by Idalou
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3 minutes ago, Katy said:

 They’re definitely being ridiculous to think it’s appropriate for 5 year olds to sit still most of the day or have the sorts of academic assignments that are more appropriate for 7 year olds. 

It's so sad how expectations for kindergarten students aren't even developmentally appropriate in the schools due to high-stakes testing.  😞  Ds3 is 27 now and was in ps for elementary school.  He was a late bloomer with reading and it was fine back then but now the expectations to read so young would have crushed his self-esteem and confidence.  He turned out to be my best reader out of all of my kids (they are all strong readers) and I go to him to summarize all kinds of complicated studies and documents for me.  

And, yes, the expectations to sit still and sit in front of a screen all day are upsetting too for these kids!  I'm so glad my kids aren't in school now - it's all so different mostly due to the testing.  My youngest got caught up in that and that's when we pulled her out of ps to homeschool.  I only regret that we didn't do it sooner. 

Our superintendent and one assistant superintendent use perfect grammar but the rest of administration and most of the teachers can't write a sentence without errors.  I can excuse most of the teachers but not the English teachers!  It's really disturbing how the English teachers don't know their own subject.  Most of the written communication I received from the schools made me cringe or laugh because the writing was so incredibly bad.

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6 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:


Not even How but When.   
 

This school was a lot of messed up.  It had non-readers making sight-word crossword puzzles (they haven't even figured out which way to read the letters!) and terrible expectations for them, which included a lot of sitting in their seats.  My kid was so depressed by the end of kindergarten because he never had a week of staying on green.  He'd talk out of turn or get bubbly and the teacher would have him pull a card.  So by Tuesday, he was usually out of the running for picking a prize at the end of the week and just didn't care anymore.

I think my favorite parent-teacher-principal-counselor conference was the day he drew a picture of a plane dropping missiles and people shooting.  He was 5, and this was a BIG DEAL.  So I showed up in uniform, dh showed up in uniform, we sat down at a school that was located on base to discuss how terrible our child was for drawing a picture of soldiers doing what he thought soldiers did.

DS's second school was in jr. high.  It was also on base, with blast curtains in every window and patrolled by soldiers with giant rifles.  I cannot imagine how his first teacher would have peed herself if she could have seen that. 😂

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Some friends of our started homeschooling over the walking-in-line thing.   They were literally next to the school playground.  Their eldest son was always in trouble at school for just looking around while walking in line.   They eventually trained him to stare laser-focused at the hair of the kid in front of him.   It was very disturbing and when the mom realized it wasn't her son being a Boy, but the school being nuts.   

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I dunno what he was smoking when he wrote that.

I could list lots of good reasons for KG, but learning to sit on a carpet square would not be one of them!

It's a little scary thinking of people putting "sitting on a carpet square" as skills our kids need to succeed in life.  😛  I mean maybe there's a reason parents don't teach kids that!

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26 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

True story:

I sent my kid to kindergarten fully literate.  I went in for my first parent-teacher conference and sat down to a teacher say very condescendingly, "he didn't go to preschool, did he?"

Me: no, why?

Teacher: He didn't know when to stand in line.

Me: <blank stare>

 

That should have been my first clue this wasn't the greatest school.  He was so much happier at home when we took him out of there.

🤪

One of my favorite homeschoolers realizations came when teaching a k-4th gym class.

1. That is not an appropriate age range for a gym class.  
2. It can take a full year to teach some kids how to “count off” for teams.  
3. Some of them will immediately figure out how to arrange themselves to get on the team they want because they’re little geniuses. 
4. The odds of them ever again needing that skill are almost non-existent, but it sure was a hoot!

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Our "favorite" experience with teacher/administrative dumb was our child being suspended for a week from preschool because he drew a banana (which he colored yellow and wrote the letter B next to), but another preschooler thought that it looked kind of like a gun, and the school policy was no pictures of weapons, zero tolerance.

They were shocked when we never took him back. Shocked. and they tried to bill us for the rest of the month. I refused to pay it. 

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I got crap because my 5yos wanted to touch the keyboards on the first day of music class (1st grade).

I didn't know there were kids who wouldn't want to touch the keyboards.  I still want to touch the keyboards.

(Same kids played piano in front of church at the Christmas program that year.  But what little barn creatures.)

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3 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

🤪

One of my favorite homeschoolers realizations came when teaching a k-4th gym class.

1. That is not an appropriate age range for a gym class.  
2. It can take a full year to teach some kids how to “count off” for teams.  
3. Some of them will immediately figure out how to arrange themselves to get on the team they want because they’re little geniuses. 
4. The odds of them ever again needing that skill are almost non-existent, but it sure was a hoot!

Ya. I never used the count off method in order to arrange my choirs or band sections. 😂😂😂

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I think there’s a lot of indoctrination in that letter.  When you grow up in that environment, then go to college where it’s further reinforced, that’s all you know.  Nowhere in a lot of these people’s lives is there ever another way presented as a good alternative, other than possibly private traditional schools.  I wish there was a more balanced education program that gave a more balanced approach.  By that I mean that it taught more than just the current educational trends as the only way to teach.

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My oldest went to Kindergarten.

He went to Kindergarten at a tiny private school. There were THREE children in the K-1 class. He had been in daycares and preschools so he had the stand in line, sit on a square stuff down, which did not apply in his actual Kindergarten.

When he went to 2nd grade at public school he didn't eat his lunch for the first several days because the principal never prayed over them, and you don't eat lunch at school until the principal prays. 

The social things you learn in Kindergarten aren't universal lol 

Edited by theelfqueen
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A huge goal of schools is to inculcate behaviors that make large numbers of children easy to manage in an institutional setting.  Because of this, it is critical that they start enforcing school behavioral norms when children are as young as possible so that those behaviors become self enforcing as early as possible.  Mostly universal preschool has made their job even easier in this regard.

Interestingly, this is what the word "socialization" actually means.  It isn't about socializing; it's about knowing how to think and behave.

Edited by EKS
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15 minutes ago, EKS said:

A huge goal of schools is to inculcate behaviors that make large numbers of children easy to manage in an institutional setting.  Because of this, it is critical that they start enforcing school behavioral norms when children are as young as possible so that those behaviors become self enforcing as early as possible.  Mostly universal preschool has made their job even easier in this regard.

Interestingly, this is what the word "socialization" actually means.  It isn't about socializing; it's about knowing how to think and behave.

Generally speaking, there has to be a way to keep order and safety, so I agree. Personally, I’ve seen lots of ridiculous stuff in classrooms over the years.  I’m just glad we were able to choose the best alternative for us, which was to school at home. 

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25 minutes ago, EKS said:

A huge goal of schools is to inculcate behaviors that make large numbers of children easy to manage in an institutional setting.  Because of this, it is critical that they start enforcing school behavioral norms when children are as young as possible so that those behaviors become self enforcing as early as possible.  Mostly universal preschool has made their job even easier in this regard.

Interestingly, this is what the word "socialization" actually means.  It isn't about socializing; it's about knowing how to think and behave.

Yep... institutionalized factory-farm schooling to turn out masses of cogs for the machine. It's disgusting.

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2 hours ago, EKS said:

A huge goal of schools is to inculcate behaviors that make large numbers of children easy to manage in an institutional setting.  Because of this, it is critical that they start enforcing school behavioral norms when children are as young as possible so that those behaviors become self enforcing as early as possible.  Mostly universal preschool has made their job even easier in this regard.

Interestingly, this is what the word "socialization" actually means.  It isn't about socializing; it's about knowing how to think and behave.

A huge, enormous part of teacher training (as a former classroom teacher in a public school) is Classroom management - how to make 20-40 kids all do the same thing. How to cope when it isn't working, etc... When people talk about the how homeschoolers aren't qualified to teach, they are forgetting or misunderstanding these aspects of their training.

As a parent you know what it looks like when your own kid isn't understanding something, or needs a bathroom break, or how to get them from the classroom to the library... or what kind of transitioning tools help your kids to move from topic a to topic b, etc. 

Edited by theelfqueen
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The carpet square gave me a good laugh. 
 

They did that at library story time. I definitely got some side eye for not enforcing it with my boy. Some parents really wanted their tots sitting perfectly still and paying attention. They eventually split it into two story times. One with movement and one “traditional.” 😂

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5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

This is an honest question.

I got my school district’s newsletter in the mail yesterday, and the front page article, written by our curriculum & instruction person (with a PhD,) is on the importance of kindergarten. Now, I don’t exactly knock kindergarten.  It’s a valid option that should always be available to all children/families. But the article is just full of garbage, in addition to sounding like an essay written by an 8th grader, with questionable punctuation.

”Where do you think a student learns how to raise their hand? Or sit on a rug square? Not climb up the slide?”  These are the questions posed in the 4th of 6.5 paragraphs. (Points for diverting from the formulaic 5. Subtraction for the lackluster conclusion sentence tacked on to the end.)

I KNOW there are some crummy parents out there, but I deeply resent the idea that we should all be spoken to as if that’s us.  Not necessarily for the specific examples pegged, though I was that mom at the playground who’s kids weren’t allowed to climb up the slide, my weirdos raise their hands at home when they can’t get a word in edgewise, and no one has ever needed to sit on a carpet square. It’s the insistence that an institution is absolutely necessary to make functional humans and parents are insufficient by “nature”. It just feels gross.

 

I remember when someone declared that homeschool  kids didn't know how to stand in line. I just started laughing- post office lines, check out lines, Disney lines, etc, ettc, etc,.

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Oh, and all of this goes back to the ridiculous "socialization" argument that people love to bring up against homeschooling.  If anything, schools discourage socialization!  Certainly no talking in line.  Probably no talking on the carpet square.  I can't count how many "silent lunches" my kids had in elementary school as punishment and then if the silent lunches weren't silent enough, they would be punished with no recess (DH and I fought hard against the silent lunches and got rid of them but it took a long time).  

 

ETA - I don't mean that my own kids were punished with silent lunches.  Every student in the lunch room had to eat lunch silently!  

 

Edited by Kassia
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1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

You’re sitting on a rug square right now, aren’t you? 😉 

I’m looking at some rug square samples on my floor right now because we are trying to choose an area rug. Does that count? Maybe I should try sitting on them to see if that helps with the decision?

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If it takes a while school year to teach a kid how to stand in line, raise a hand, or for Pete’s sake not use the playground equipment properly…. there are definitely larger issues. 
 

I don’t mean to insult any professional educators here, but I do believe and agree there’s a boatload of unnecessary bs in educational administration these days (both public and private!). 

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My second born came home with a self-portrait he colored with his crayons in Kindergarten. The assignment was to draw themselves performing at the Christmas concert.  And adult must have instructed him to do this, but it was titled, "Nervous."

It just kinda sorta rubbed me the wrong way.

The child was never taught phonics or how to properly decode words at that school, yet they were having him give his pictures gloomy captions.

I get the 'social-emptional learning' needs to happen and all that, but it just seemed wrong. 

Edited by Ting Tang
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4 hours ago, theelfqueen said:

A huge, enormous part of teacher training (as a former classroom teacher in a public school) is Classroom management - how to make 20-40 kids all do the same thing. How to cope when it isn't working, etc... When people talk about the how homeschoolers aren't qualified to teach, they are forgetting or misunderstanding these aspects of their training.

I've often pointed that out to teachers who seem to think that parents can't teach.   I ask them what percentage of their training was on classroom management, and how hard would be for them to teach if they didn't have to worry about it.   Then I'll also tell them about all the hand-holding that some of the curriculum does.    I've learned along with DD.  

I used to know a guy that taught at the school where the serious troublemakers were sent.  There was a cop in every classroom and the next step was jail.    He said it was an amazing job because the cop handled the classroom management part.  

 

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1 minute ago, shawthorne44 said:


I used to know a guy that taught at the school where the serious troublemakers were sent.  There was a cop in every classroom and the next step was jail.    He said it was an amazing job because the cop handled the classroom management part.  

 

I know someone who had a similar experience teaching in a juvenile detention facility. Said it was the most rewarding job of his career.

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1 hour ago, Kassia said:

Oh, and all of this goes back to the ridiculous "socialization" argument that people love to bring up against homeschooling.  If anything, schools discourage socialization!  Certainly no talking in line.  Probably no talking on the carpet square.  I can't count how many "silent lunches" my kids had in elementary school as punishment and then if the silent lunches weren't silent enough, they would be punished with no recess (DH and I fought hard against the silent lunches and got rid of them but it took a long time). 

My late elementary was silent lunches every day.   The teachers would complain that we upset their tummies when we were loud.  My grandmother came to have lunch with me one day and she was shocked when all the kids shushed her.    We couldn't talk even at recess.  

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27 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

My late elementary was silent lunches every day.   The teachers would complain that we upset their tummies when we were loud.  My grandmother came to have lunch with me one day and she was shocked when all the kids shushed her.    We couldn't talk even at recess.  

That's abuse, IMO.  I was shocked that other parents didn't support us when we fought against the silent lunches and loss of recess.  I can't imagine any other setting where people would be forced to eat lunch in silence.  And recess is just as important for children as any academic subject.  

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6 minutes ago, Kassia said:

That's abuse, IMO.  I was shocked that other parents didn't support us when we fought against the silent lunches and loss of recess.  I can't imagine any other setting where people would be forced to eat lunch in silence.  And recess is just as important for children as any academic subject.  


The only good thing that came of it was that my parents backed me up when I talked in class.  The teachers figured out that my parents no longer cared about those reports.   They also noticed that their choice was to let me read or I would talk to my neighbors.  They took the easy path and let me read. 

People are shocked when I tell them I only learned two things in that school.    Well, three if you include "Authority figures can be full of ----", which has been extremely valuable.  
 

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My kids went to little 1/2 day church preschools a couple of days each week when they were little.  One year they had a new teacher, who had been a public school K teacher.  She only taught until Christmas when her husband got transferred out of state.  It was a night and day difference between how she ran her classroom and how the other teachers did.  I hadn't really picked up on it, but my kid, a naturally well-behaved and academically interested and advanced kid, was stressed.  She sent home homwork.  The preschool coordinator didn't know, and I didn't pick up the signs because we had a new baby and I attributed it to the change in family, except that it disappeareed when the replacement teacher came in January.  

And...unless kids never go anywhere, most of them will get those early skills.  Bible school, ball teams, dance recitals...there are all sorts of places where kids have to take turns, find a dot or square to sit or stand on, or form some semblance of a line to get from point A to point B, although most of them are fall more tolerant of it being done imperfectly than the school system was.  

And, as for slides...our rule was always that if you were alone at the park or on the equipment, you could play however you wanted.  If there was another kid who wanted to play the same, way, it was fine.  If anybody wanted to use the slide (or other equipment) in the manner in which it was intended to be used, they had priority over you wanting to use it differently.  That seemed easy enough for even my preschoolers.  

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Why is anyone surprised? 

Working with kindergarten, management of bodies is the first order of business. It's core.

It's not 'let the child express their individuality', it's 'please cut off their toes so they fit in these shoes'. You can't get the shoe on if they don't know how to line up, or sit on the mat when it's mat-sitting time. 

The better kindergartens tell a better story. But they are all focused on that mat. 

Reality of mass schooling. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kassia said:

That's abuse, IMO.  I was shocked that other parents didn't support us when we fought against the silent lunches and loss of recess.  I can't imagine any other setting where people would be forced to eat lunch in silence.  And recess is just as important for children as any academic subject.  

I agree.

My kids' KG was nontraditional, but things got interesting where they went to school for grades 1-8.  I have to say that overall, there was a reasonable amount of freedom and movement for that age group, but they did punish kids for being kids by taking away things kids need.  Recess was commonly taken away for unfinished seat work.  Once they even stopped my 6yo from going to lunch because she hadn't finished her daily journal entry.  I did complain about these things.  The school wouldn't budge on the recess, and they vehemently denied the lunch incident (so I guess they agreed that taking away lunch was wrong!).

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21 minutes ago, SKL said:

but they did punish kids for being kids by taking away things kids need.  Recess was commonly taken away for unfinished seat work.  Once they even stopped my 6yo from going to lunch because she hadn't finished her daily journal entry. The school wouldn't budge on the recess, and they vehemently denied the lunch incident (so I guess they agreed that taking away lunch was wrong!).

I can't believe this stuff is happening in so many schools.  It's horrifying that anyone would treat children this way.  We had so many issues with our district - I'm sure they were absolutely thrilled when we pulled our youngest out to homeschool.  

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10 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

True story:

I sent my kid to kindergarten fully literate.  I went in for my first parent-teacher conference and sat down to a teacher say very condescendingly, "he didn't go to preschool, did he?"

Me: no, why?

Teacher: He didn't know when to stand in line.

Me: <blank stare>

 

That should have been my first clue this wasn't the greatest school.  He was so much happier at home when we took him out of there.

We got a similar talk from ds13's kindy teacher. We lasted 3 days. In 3 days, they'd called me 6 times over behavior issues like: not sitting in the circle for circle time, wanting to sit next to Lindsey instead of where he was told to sit, not knowing he should grab his lunch box before heading to the cafeteria. I was LIVID that my child had not eaten lunch and asked the teacher why no one was reminding the kids to grab their stuff, (I mean, these are 5 and 6 year olds! You have to remind them of everything!). "I don't have time for that" was her response.  Within the first 3 days, we were turfed to the school social worker because "obviously" something was wrong with my kid and I wasn't properly addressing it.  

What a load of crap. 

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