Some hospital systems are dropping the vaccine mandates

[Fritz]

Due to staffing issues some of the largest hospital systems are relaxing their vaccine mandates. I'm surprised it has taken them this long to drop these seeing all the efforts to hire staff not working. The question is, is that the only issue keeping many healthcare workers on the sidelines though? I know staffing is a very real struggle in my area. It will be interesting to see if these changes change anything. And yes, there have been shortages before the pandemic but nothing like the shortages we are experiencing now.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/some-hospitals-drop-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-to-ease-labor-shortages-11639396806

[Jean in Newcastle]

That’s too bad. 

[Katy]

It’s not staffing requirements, it’s the legal department.  In some areas the mandate is going through court. At least that’s what it said in this morning’s Washington Post. 

[Pawz4me]

I'm SO glad the big hospital systems in my area seem to have had very little issues with compliance. I'd hate to live in an area where I had to wonder if I were at more increased risk from a medical provider than I needed to be (which would also make me seriously doubt the judgment/competence of the provider).

[1234]

My mom’s hospital is losing staff due to burnout, not vaccines. Healthcare workers where she’s at are just done.

[Spryte]

1 minute ago, Joker2 said:

My mom’s hospital is losing staff due to burnout, not vaccines. Healthcare workers where she’s at are just done.

Yes, that’s what I’m seeing here, too. Vaccine mandate didn’t create much of a wave, but there have been vaccinated HCW moving to other fields due to burn out. Or a few that I know IRL are choosing to stay home.

[Dmmetler]

Also, there are states like mine. The legislature passed a ban on businesses requiring vaccination or masking for customers or employees. So our hospital systems have paused the mandates,but have also filed in court to get clarification as to whether a hospital (or college, or school district) counts as a "business" under law. Under the current law, it would be possible to say that surgeons don't have to wear masks and that nurses working in OB do not have to be vaccinated against rubella-both of which would not be good health care practice. 

[Hilltopmom]

28 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

My mom’s hospital is losing staff due to burnout, not vaccines. Healthcare workers where she’s at are just done.

Yes, this. At the peds today a nurse was crying in the hallway trying to keep up with patients, room cleaning in between, etc. We waited an hour and they are slammed like that all day every day- kids need to be cleared to return to school. 

[Frances]

It will make no difference locally, as the large hospital here gave exemptions to anyone who requested one. We’ve still had staffing shortages so bad that National Guard are in the hospital, lots of traveling nurses, and triple overtime pay. Burnout is a huge issue. And it becomes a vicious downward spiral because staffing shortages plus lots of inexperienced workers leads to even more burnout among the experienced staff.

Historically, my state does a very bad job of providing healthcare training opportunities across the hoard and instead relies on people moving to the state, which sucks for people here who want to go into healthcare. Unfortunately, I doubt hard lessons learned from the pandemic will result in very many new training slots.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Frances

[Happy2BaMom]

It isn't going to change anything, because the number of staff leaving over vaccine requirements (which are true, inflexible "requirements" in only a very few states) is far smaller than than the number of staff leaving due to burnout, entitled patients, and lack of public support.

 

[sassenach]

I'm confused because I thought Biden's mandate for any organization that takes medicare/medicaid (so everyone) would trump all of the other mandates?

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

Our hospital lost about 5% of staff and most were not RNs.  The ER lost one RN and one resident doctor who would not be vaccinated.    
The hospital is still incredibly short staffed just as they were before the pandemic.  There aren’t new grad nurses to hire anymore.  Even though the community college that has the largest nursing program in the area is still expanding so they can offer more slots, the interest has not kept up with the expansion.  And the drop out/fail out rate is fairly high.  There are two local private colleges that offer a BSN, but most of those students are young and from out of the area, and don’t stay here when they graduate. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[ealp2009]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

Under the current law, it would be possible to say that surgeons don't have to wear masks 

 

I don’t think this is really true because the Joint Commission which accredits hospitals has requirements about what surgeons have to wear (even to the point of requiring particular undershirts).  I would imagine they require masks.   Even if something is not legally mandated a hospital can’t just do whatever it wants. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by ealp2009

[Spryte]

13 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Our hospital lost about 5% of staff and most were not RNs.  The ER lost one RN and one resident doctor who would not be vaccinated.    
The hospital is still incredibly short staffed just as they were before the pandemic.  There aren’t new grad nurses to hire anymore.  Even though the community college that has the largest nursing program in the area is still expanding so they can offer more slots, the interest has not kept up with the expansion.  And the drop out/fail out rate is fairly high.  There are two local private colleges that offer a BSN, but most of those students are young and from out of the area, and don’t stay here when they graduate. 

Similar here.

On an unusual, outlier personal note: I did have the cool experience of having a brand new RN while I was hospitalized last spring. I was her very first patient. She was great. I wish more like her were coming along, as it is, I think we have a slow bleed—more leaving than graduating and starting. 

[Loowit]

I have no idea how much staff actually quit locally because of the mandate.  The hospital is not being forthcoming with the information, and I am pretty sure that the anti-vaxer/anti-mandate people are overstating their numbers.

I would hate to see the mandate for health care workers go away, but at the same time we do need health care workers.  I, however, would not willing use our local hospital.  We always go out of town to a bigger hospital if it is at all feasible.

My niece, who is very pro vaccine, is in the healthcare field and she is burnt out.  She has to work too much overtime in poor working conditions and is looking for another job option.

[Tanaqui]

You sure it's the mask mandates, Fritz? Or is it the long hours, bad pay, lack of respect, and now knowledge that your own place of work doesn't care if you get sick?

[Grace Hopper]

2 hours ago, Joker2 said:

My mom’s hospital is losing staff due to burnout, not vaccines. Healthcare workers where she’s at are just done.

And the silly TikTok videos about bedside nurses checking out to make waaay more money as travel nurses are not false. 
 

Burnout + higher pay incentives outside of bedside nursing are huge factors in the hospital nurse shortage. 

I haven’t seen statistics on this, but I’m curious about how many nurses were forced into retirement due to having to deal with their own long covid health issues, after serving so many during the pandemic.

Plus my nurse family members tell me they are simply exhausted from dealing with acute illness in unvaccinated patients, ie, preventable illness. They are discouraged to feel like the combined efforts of the medical community are…. under appreciated, to put it nicely. Don’t shoot me for saying that, it is true anecdotal evidence in my sphere. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Grace Hopper

[Sneezyone]

DHs last command just lost its XO b/c he refused to be vaccinated. The senior Lt. Commander is now acting XO without any pay increase/spot-promote attached. DH used to send me pics of his ‘leader’, the only masked face among the crew. Good riddance to bad rubbish. I just feel bad for the sailors who have to pick up his dropped load.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[73349]

😬 Increasing risk for those who stay is a risky move in terms of both staffing and patient outcomes.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Carolina Wren

[ScoutTN]

We know nurses who have quit working in hospitals (both a teaching/university hospital and for-profit ones) over burnout and overload created by large numbers of anti-vax people. They have all taken positions in clinics or doctors’ offices where the exposure is less, hours are way better, and pay is reasonable. 
 

Large medical community here. Oodles of nurses, NP, docs, and other medical people in our circles. Zero unvaxed, zero quit over mandates, but some who changed up their employment due to our state’s stupid law. Not willing to work in such an unsafe environment. Our governor is an idiot about covid stuff.

[Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Large medical community here. Oodles of nurses, NP, docs, and other medical people in our circles. Zero unvaxed, zero quit over mandates, but some who changed up their employment due to our state’s stupid law. Not willing to work in such an unsafe environment

Yep. I know a (now former) nurse from Tennessee who falls into this category.

[Fritz]

3 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

You sure it's the mask mandates, Fritz? Or is it the long hours, bad pay, lack of respect, and now knowledge that your own place of work doesn't care if you get sick?

Perhaps you misread my post. I made no statement about it being about mask mandates. As I said, it will be interesting to see if the dropped vaccine mandates make any real difference in staffing. As I predicted long ago, most that asked for exemptions were given exemptions anyway.

By the way, I am a nurse, and am more than a little familiar with the issues in nursing. They existed prepandemic as well.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Fritz

[Fritz]

3 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

And the silly TikTok videos about bedside nurses checking out to make waaay more money as travel nurses are not false. 
 

Burnout + higher pay incentives outside of bedside nursing are huge factors in the hospital nurse shortage. 

I haven’t seen statistics on this, but I’m curious about how many nurses were forced into retirement due to having to deal with their own long covid health issues, after serving so many during the pandemic.

Plus my nurse family members tell me they are simply exhausted from dealing with acute illness in unvaccinated patients, ie, preventable illness. They are discouraged to feel like the combined efforts of the medical community are…. under appreciated, to put it nicely. Don’t shoot me for saying that, it is true anecdotal evidence in my sphere. 

I know several that retired early on in the pandemic. Just not willing to risk their health to an unknown virus.

[LMV]

6 hours ago, Joker2 said:

My mom’s hospital is losing staff due to burnout, not vaccines. Healthcare workers where she’s at are just done.

I think that this and that in reality some healthcare systems are just horrible to their physicians and at some point when you’re working overtime, literally getting assaulted, literally risking your life, something has to give. I may work in one of the few decent health systems so I’m not personally worried for myself but as a mom, wife, daughter, and sister the physician loss in the US concerns me for the healthcare for my family, and our nation.

[TechWife]

The deadlines for vaccine mandates have passed at our hospital systems & I haven’t heard anything about relaxing the requirement. There is still a shortage of nurses, so nothing new on that front that I’m aware of. 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

Plus my nurse family members tell me they are simply exhausted from dealing with acute illness in unvaccinated patients, ie, preventable illness. They are discouraged to feel like the combined efforts of the medical community are…. under appreciated, to put it nicely. Don’t shoot me for saying that, it is true anecdotal evidence in my sphere. 

All of the local news stories where reporters went into hospitals to talk to staff reported exactly the same thing.

[Happy2BaMom]

18 hours ago, sassenach said:

I'm confused because I thought Biden's mandate for any organization that takes medicare/medicaid (so everyone) would trump all of the other mandates?

That mandate has been blocked (as of 11/30). And even the mandate allowed for religious exemptions, which most healthcare organizations accepted liberally anyway, often requiring nothing more than workers signing a form.

Meanwhile, my cousin's hospital has had 8 nurses resign in the last two weeks, and 3 physicians are leaving as well. Pretty grim survey results about physicians leaving the medical field. A lot of people don't realize that elective procedures, not Covid, are how many physicians earn a significant portion of their money. And when hospitals get overrun with Covid patients, elective procedures get kicked to the curb, sometimes for weeks or months. Top that off with skyrocketing amounts of abuse (& violence) from patients, public distrust and huge misinformation campaigns, constant profit-squeezing (since, you know, it makes sense to have health care systems run by entities devoted to increasing profits..../s), massive stress from constantly being short-staffed....well, the results are not too surprising. 

The long term impacts of the pandemic in this country are going to include a whole lot less available health care for everyone.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Happy2BaMom

[Pam in CT]

re long haul COVID on American health care systems

38 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

That mandate has been blocked (as of 11/30). And even the mandate allowed for religious exemptions, which most healthcare organizations accepted liberally anyway, often requiring nothing more than workers signing a form.

Meanwhile, my cousin's hospital has had 8 nurses resign in the last two weeks, and 3 physicians are leaving as well. Pretty grim survey results about physicians leaving the medical field. A lot of people don't realize that elective procedures, not Covid, are how many physicians earn a significant portion of their money. And when hospitals get overrun with Covid patients, elective procedures get kicked to the curb, sometimes for weeks or months. Top that off with skyrocketing amounts of abuse (& violence) from patients, public distrust and huge misinformation campaigns, constant profit-squeezing (since, you know, it makes sense to have health care systems run by entities devoted to increasing profits..../s), massive stress from constantly being short-staffed....well, the results are not too surprising. 

The long term impacts of the pandemic in this country are going to include a whole lot less available health care for everyone.

This.

And all of the long term impacts -- the Great Resignation of health care workers, the unpaid hospital bills left behind by dead patients, those left too impaired to continue working, and those patients who never were in any position to sustain weeks-long ICU stays and whose bare-bones high deductible plans have left them staggering, and the effects of weeks/months of having to shut down the profitable procedures to care for COVID patients ...

... the effects will be far worse in the less-populated (thus: less-profitable) parts of the country that already *were* underserved before the pandemic.

There's a lot of work ahead, even after we get to the other side of COVID.

[Fritz]

21 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm SO glad the big hospital systems in my area seem to have had very little issues with compliance. I'd hate to live in an area where I had to wonder if I were at more increased risk from a medical provider than I needed to be (which would also make me seriously doubt the judgment/competence of the provider).

Stay tuned. I am hearing from some managers in other systems that dropping the mandate is being discussed.

[livetoread]

I went to an infusion center at a hospital for my osteoporosis drug infusion a week or so ago. There were two patients getting infusions that weren't masked, and a staff member (nurse?) was sitting at the computer station in the middle of the room with her mask on her chin, nose and mouth completely exposed. When I told my nurse I didn't feel comfortable sitting next to the unmasked patient, she offered to draw the curtains - yes, the flimsy curtains that stop several feet from the ceiling and about four feet from the floor. I know it must be tiresome to enforce masks in a hospital, but they seem to have just given up. When I asked both my nurse and the receptionist why they weren't enforcing it, they said they ask people to wear them but...and then just kind of shrugged. We are a national hot spot with high numbers right now - as high as the previous delta peak. I expect to go to the grocery and be around unmasked people, but the hospitals all have mask mandates and I was really taken aback that even the hospitals (at least this department) have thrown up their hands. I mean, there are people who are immunocompromised getting chemo treatments there. It was really, really depressing.

[Innisfree]

5 minutes ago, livetoread said:

I went to an infusion center at a hospital for my osteoporosis drug infusion a week or so ago. There were two patients getting infusions that weren't masked, and a staff member (nurse?) was sitting at the computer station in the middle of the room with her mask on her chin, nose and mouth completely exposed. When I told my nurse I didn't feel comfortable sitting next to the unmasked patient, she offered to draw the curtains - yes, the flimsy curtains that stop several feet from the ceiling and about four feet from the floor. I know it must be tiresome to enforce masks in a hospital, but they seem to have just given up. When I asked both my nurse and the receptionist why they weren't enforcing it, they said they ask people to wear them but...and then just kind of shrugged. We are a national hot spot with high numbers right now - as high as the previous delta peak. I expect to go to the grocery and be around unmasked people, but the hospitals all have mask mandates and I was really taken aback that even the hospitals (at least this department) have thrown up their hands. I mean, there are people who are immunocompromised getting chemo treatments there. It was really, really depressing.

This is just really sad. Yesterday and today I've been spending hours in a hospital visiting a patient, and masking has been almost universal. So far I've seen one teenaged boy with his mask drooping below his nose, and one employee pulling it down briefly to talk. Otherwise, everyone is properly masked. This is a big hospital, with hundreds of people moving around-- all masked. 

The regional variations continue to be huge.

[SeaConquest]

"More recently, thousands of nurses have left the industry or lost their jobs rather than get vaccinated. As of September, 30% of workers at more than 2,000 hospitals across the country surveyed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention were unvaccinated."

Way to conflate nurses with healthcare workers. This article makes it sound like nurses are leaving in droves because of vaccine mandates, which just isn't true. As others have pointed out, nurses are leaving because of burnout, low pay, terrible ratios, moral injury, and the horrors of dealing with the unvaccinated public who are, on the whole, abusive towards healthcare workers who practice evidence-based medicine. Moreover, the term "nurses" is so broad as to encompass everything from diploma nurses, LVNs, and associates-degree nurses with two years of community college, post-secondary education all the way to doctorally-prepared nurse practitioners. There is a very high correlation between education and support for vaccines; the majority of nurses that are actually leaving due to mandates tend to be those with the least post-secondary education.

[goldberry]

When a related unvaxxed family member got Covid and ended up hospitalized, his family members were accusing the hospital staff of GIVING him a blood clot, and trying to kill him to get him on a ventilator so they could get more money.

If I was on that staff, it would have been hard not to walk out that very day.  Or at the very least end up fired for telling those people what I really thought.  I cannot even imagine the abuse they are putting up with. 😥

[Pam in CT]

re HCW being maligned for *wanting* patients to get COVID

43 minutes ago, goldberry said:

When a related unvaxxed family member got Covid and ended up hospitalized, his family members were accusing the hospital staff of GIVING him a blood clot, and trying to kill him to get him on a ventilator so they could get more money.

If I was on that staff, it would have been hard not to walk out that very day.  Or at the very least end up fired for telling those people what I really thought.  I cannot even imagine the abuse they are putting up with. 😥

This dynamic, and these kinds of accusations, have been directed at health care workers from the first terrifying weeks of the pandemic when NYC and CA hospitals were setting up popup tents as ICU beds and reports came in across the nation that *their* ERs were empty so hotspot nurses must therefore be lying; culminating when the then-sitting POTUS accused hospitals of falsely diagnosing COVID deaths so they could profiteer from "higher payments."

 

COVID has taught us a good deal, starting with, what we're really talking about when we talk about "essential workers."

[wathe]

6 hours ago, livetoread said:

I went to an infusion center at a hospital for my osteoporosis drug infusion a week or so ago. There were two patients getting infusions that weren't masked, and a staff member (nurse?) was sitting at the computer station in the middle of the room with her mask on her chin, nose and mouth completely exposed. When I told my nurse I didn't feel comfortable sitting next to the unmasked patient, she offered to draw the curtains - yes, the flimsy curtains that stop several feet from the ceiling and about four feet from the floor. I know it must be tiresome to enforce masks in a hospital, but they seem to have just given up. When I asked both my nurse and the receptionist why they weren't enforcing it, they said they ask people to wear them but...and then just kind of shrugged. We are a national hot spot with high numbers right now - as high as the previous delta peak. I expect to go to the grocery and be around unmasked people, but the hospitals all have mask mandates and I was really taken aback that even the hospitals (at least this department) have thrown up their hands. I mean, there are people who are immunocompromised getting chemo treatments there. It was really, really depressing.

We have magic curtains at my hospital too. 

HCW are just over it.  Most will ask the patient to mask.  And when the patient refuses, then what?  Kick them out? - nurses aren't empowered to do that.  And they are done arguing and being both verbally and sometime physically abused.  So yes, resignation has set it.

[wathe]

3 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

There is a very high correlation between education and support for vaccines; the majority of nurses that are actually leaving due to mandates tend to be those with the least post-secondary education.

Yes.

[kokotg]

As a patient, I would absolutely go out of my way to go to a hospital or other healthcare facility that requires vaccines over one that doesn't. I can't imagine there aren't plenty of healthcare workers who feel the same way about where they work and, particularly in this job market, will choose an employer that values science and public health over one that doesn't.