Please help me word this

[Moonhawk]

7 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I do agree with your final statement (I think).

However, my experience with folks in my life suggests that the statement you italicized can be equally true in both directions. Obviously, not true of everyone who identifies as either liberal or conservative, but I do see a lot of people for whom politics is all kind of mushed up with (and sometimes a substitute for) religion.

Well, yes, almost any position can be taken from a rational point of view to an irrational belief, yes. But the quote I used, and then just changed the word, implied that all "woke"-ism is irrational and so needs to be treated as such (ie, don't try to engage rationally).

If your default is dismissal, you cannot move forward, and saying that a view is irrational immediately means there can be no common ground or understanding. You aren't dismissing just one or two irrational people, or saying that just some people substitute their wokeism for religion, the statement says that the entire view point is irrational.

edit: clarity, my second paragraph was too vague originally.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Moonhawk

[EKS]

23 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

If this feels icky, it's probably because no one wants their views to be dismissed as just being irrational.

I recommend that you read the book before passing judgment about its arguments.

24 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

Regardless of anything else in this thread, I do not think that reading a book that further entrenches OP against her daughters is a good idea. 

If I thought it would further entrench her against her daughters, I would not have recommended it.

[Moonhawk]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

I recommend that you read the book before passing judgment about its arguments.

If I thought it would further entrench her against her daughters, I would not have recommended it.

Fair enough. I should read it before I say "don't read it", but if the take away, or if one of its premises, is that wokeism is irrational, I think it fair to voice concern.

[Frances]

55 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I believe that the election was called in accord with the votes, but obviously there were more opportunities for fraud than usual because of the more extensive mail balloting and the change in the timing criteria for when votes had to be in.  I don’t believe that those changed the outcome, but I think that they fly in the face of people’s confidence in free and fair elections.  If you’re really concerned about people’s beliefs in free and fair elections you have to be concerned with those things even if you believe that the elections are called properly.  

Undermining trust is not wrong if undermining trustworthiness is going on.  The way to fix trust issues starts with BEING TRUSTWORTHY.  Being untrustworthy is the first attack and weakening factor for our election system, and needs to be addressed with the same fervor as the ‘stop the steal’ untruths—otherwise the issue is whose ox is being gored rather than the principle being espoused.  

I do think the pandemic put unusual strains on our election system. But the Big Lie started even before the pandemic. And the many allegations of fraud were aired in the courts and not supported. I do think we can do better and some states, like mine, are the model to follow. 

While I understand the general principle in your last paragraph, I’m lost as to the specifics you are alluding to. Every politician perpetuating the Big Lie is untrustworthy, that’s my fundamental point. If they will lie about something so integral to our democracy (and unlike the general population, I think the majority, at least at the national level, know it’s a lie), how can they be trusted at all, regardless of whether or not you agree with their politics? Election officials and elected leaders who pushed back against the Big Lie and attempts to change the outcome were attacked, vilified, and in some cases, ousted. The untrustworthy have been emboldened while those fighting to protect the integrity of our election system have been weakened.

 

[Terabith]

I will say that I am 45, REALLY easy going, and I have had a very, very, very hard time maintaining relationships with family who voted a particular way in 2016 and 2020.  It has definitely made me scale WAY back on our relationships, because it wasn't about politics; it was about morality and the stakes were very, very high.  Prior to 2016, my friend group was incredibly eclectic in terms of political views, but after 2016....all my friends who voted differently than me cut me off.  I was devastated.  But I've come to believe that was probably the healthiest thing for me, honestly.  

It was not a normal election or candidate, and it had more to do with truth, reality, and being a decent human being than politics.  

[Carol in Cal.]

18 minutes ago, Frances said:

I do think the pandemic put unusual strains on our election system. But the Big Lie started even before the pandemic. And the many allegations of fraud were aired in the courts and not supported. I do think we can do better and some states, like mine, are the model to follow. 

While I understand the general principle in your last paragraph, I’m lost as to the specifics you are alluding to. Every politician perpetuating the Big Lie is untrustworthy, that’s my fundamental point. If they will lie about something so integral to our democracy (and unlike the general population, I think the majority, at least at the national level, know it’s a lie), how can they be trusted at all, regardless of whether or not you agree with their politics? Election officials and elected leaders who pushed back against the Big Lie and attempts to change the outcome were attacked, vilified, and in some cases, ousted. The untrustworthy have been emboldened while those fighting to protect the integrity of our election system have been weakened.

 

There are several Big Lies that are floating around.  I don’t single out the one you do as the sole or primary Big Threat.  I can only think of a few politicians that I trust, and they are state or local ones.  So I don’t know who you consider trustworthy, but it’s probably someone that I would not.  

[Shoeless]

Unfollow your daughters on social media. Your sister should do so, too. 

I dislike social media quite a lot because it amplifies negativity. Good vibes don't generate engagement the same way angry rants do, so angry rants always bubble to the top.

Your daughters would probably do well to step away from the angry, echo chamber that is social media, BUT you can't control what they do (nor should you try). What you can control is your exposure to their social media posts. Just unfollow them. Don't look at the stuff they post and don't comment on it, either on sm or in person. Tell your sister to mind her business.

[happi duck]

Afaik, Big Lie (current context) is specifically the idea that the 2020 election was stolen.  So treating that phrase as just meaning lying in general makes for confusion.

Edited December 9, 2021 by happi duck

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

Yes, certainly we could all find common ground by agreeing that the 2020 presidential election was not stolen. And realizing the serious threat to our democracy that the continued promulgation of the lie poses. I absolutely agree that many information sources, especially social media, seek to divide us. It makes seeking the truth and standing up for it and fighting back against lies, misinformation, and conspiracy theories more important than ever. Downplaying their threat, shrugging them off, and perpetuating false equivalencies just keeps them alive and dividing.

OK but then you have to be willing to accept equivalent points about what the other side was saying and doing about the 2016 election too.  It's net zero.  Is it worth dividing families and other productive groups?  I think not.

The idea that family infighting about this sort of thing makes ANY positive difference in the world is irrational and unhealthy IMO.  Each adult has one vote.  Period.

[Shoeless]

Shouldn't discussion specific to the election be on the politics board? 

[WildflowerMom]

6 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Shouldn't discussion specific to the election be on the politics board? 

Yes.  There’s some irony here.  People are saying, ‘don’t talk politics with your kids!’ while talking politics in a thread that wasn’t about politics on a board that doesn’t allow political talk.  🙄

[Frances]

33 minutes ago, SKL said:

OK but then you have to be willing to accept equivalent points about what the other side was saying and doing about the 2016 election too.  It's net zero.  Is it worth dividing families and other productive groups?  I think not.

The idea that family infighting about this sort of thing makes ANY positive difference in the world is irrational and unhealthy IMO.  Each adult has one vote.  Period.

Where there are actual equivalencies and not false ones, sure, I have no problem accepting them. But as I recall, your many attempts at false equivalencies were very roundly countered with actual facts back in November of 2020 on this board.

In general, I do think there are basic fundamental principles worth standing up and fighting for that transcend religion and politics. You may disagree. Of course people will differ on what those fundamental principles are.

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

Unfollow your daughters on social media. Your sister should do so, too. 

I dislike social media quite a lot because it amplifies negativity. Good vibes don't generate engagement the same way angry rants do, so angry rants always bubble to the top.

Your daughters would probably do well to step away from the angry, echo chamber that is social media, BUT you can't control what they do (nor should you try). What you can control is your exposure to their social media posts. Just unfollow them. Don't look at the stuff they post and don't comment on it, either on sm or in person. Tell your sister to mind her business.

Absolutely this. 

 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

Conservatism is more like a religion than an ideology. What this means is that interacting with those who espouse it as though their feelings about it were rational is doomed to failure and another approached is needed.

I also wanted to say that I'm not conservative, nor is the author.

[Melissa Louise]

OP, how much input did you have into choosing the family therapist? What are the family therapist's qualifications? 

What ppl need to understand is that in GOOD therapy, there's a working alliance between therapist and each party. 

Therapy isn't a 'safe space' to create an alliance against one of the parties who has agreed to be there. 

 

 

[Moonhawk]

14 minutes ago, EKS said:

I also wanted to say that I'm not conservative, nor is the author.

lol, I chose conservatism because I am 🙂 Or I was as of 2019, anyway. I could be the Lorax for all I know now, LOL. 

[katilac]

6 hours ago, Home'scool said:

 We asked them not to post such stuff but they did it anyways.

I once told my youngest that she was throwing away happiness with both hands.  

You say you want them to act like adults, but you are treating them like children. 

They decide what to post on their social media. 

They decide how to live their life and seek their happiness. 

I cannot imagine asking a grown person to not post certain stuff on social media, or telling them that they are "throwing away happiness". That's boundary-crossing and condescending.  

3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Bless their hearts.  My mother was pretty liberal.  they wouldn't have liked it.  

 

My kids seem to like it just fine. 

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, MEmama said:

It’s not generational at all. It might not be your personal experience but it’s definitely not “kids these days”. 
 

Some people grow up in toxic or unhealthy family situations. Why on earth should they not seek out healthier dynamics? My parents are largely dismissive of me, they have torn me down and belittled me my entire life. I wish I had heard the messaging when I was younger that I didn’t have to put up with it, but largely it didn’t exist then. I’m glad that we are moving on from the narrative that blood ties are more important than anything else, regardless of treatment or lack of respect. Parents don’t get a free pass to belittle their children without consequences. 

This. People in their 20’s evaluate their lives. For the first time they may be realizing that they are truly separate from their parents, that other people didn’t grow up the way they did (others had it better or worse) and they are asking themselves, their parents & their friends a lot of questions that start with the word “why.” 

While I was in my 20’s I processed growing up as the kid of a workaholic that was also an alcoholic that verbally abused his kids &  had a mother that enabled the behavior & didn’t often stick up for the kids. It was a process. My relationship with my parents survived and eventually even thrived. But, it was a years long learning experience for me. I was at varying times angry, sad, humiliated, & even grateful for the way I had been raised. I had to figure out how to relate to these flawed people who had such an impact on who I was and who I continue to be. To coin an often overused phrase: This is life. 

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, happi duck said:

Afaik, Big Lie is specifically the idea that the 2020 election was stolen.  So treating that phrase as just meaning lying in general makes for confusion.

I’d go a step further & say it’s intentional obfuscation. Attempting to change the narrative by changing a definition is a form of gaslighting, I think. It’s rampant in some political circles & has become the default response to differing opinions when challenged by facts & logic. 

[Tanaqui]

Terminology/politics note: Big Lie is a term dating back to Hitler. It does not specifically have to do with the 2020 American presidential election.

[TechWife]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

Terminology/politics note: Big Lie is a term dating back to Hitler. It does not specifically have to do with the 2020 American presidential election.

Yes. It’s shorthand for propaganda. Then & now. People who believe “The Big Lie” about the 2020 election are believing propaganda. When people say that someone believes “The Big Lie,” they are referring to someone believing propaganda. In the context of this weird parallel conversation, “The Big Lie” refers to propaganda that furthers the mistaken idea that the former guy won the 2020 election. 

[happi duck]

6 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Terminology/politics note: Big Lie is a term dating back to Hitler. It does not specifically have to do with the 2020 American presidential election.

Thanks, I edited to add "current context" because I do think the term is currently, in the US, associated with the 2020 election stuff.  It isn't just a synonym for lying.

[katilac]

6 hours ago, Home'scool said:

 

This behavior from the girls has ramped up over the last few years or so. When I was first divorced we moved in with my sister (in-law set up) and we were, for the most part, very happy. My sister did everything she could to make us feel that it was "our" home. They even started calling her Mama-Auntie. They were extremely close to their cousins, my sister's sons. They called themselves "The Cousin Coalition" 

 

We have such an opportunity to rebuild a new life without my EX being such an ass to everyone (they currently have not contact with him ... he isn't willing to put the time in or apologize for anything) but they just keep fighting it.

I snipped your post down to these two bits, because I think they may combine to make a very strong point. 

It sounds like you, your kids, and your sister's family all got closer after your divorce. It's pretty par for the course for family members to lean on each other more than usual in times of crisis, like a divorce. Which is a great thing in many ways, but it also occurred right about when your kids would have started the natural process of distancing a bit from mom.   

Now, you are seeing an opportunity to rebuild a new life with your ex out of the picture, but again this is a time when they would very naturally be pulling away even more to build their own lives. This likely got delayed and minimized to some extent during and after the divorce, because the family unit wasn't strong enough to endure it, and because they didn't want to push you away at that time (not saying any of this was conscious on their part or requested on yours). 

So part of this is possibly worsened because they are having to 'catch up' on separating from you. They probably also sense your feeling about this being a great time to rebuild and get closer, even if you don't specifically say it (which, if you do, stop, lol). They possibly couldn't even articulate that they sense it and it's making them uncomfortable, but it's there under the surface. 

As far as your original question: it's fine to say you can't do the therapy session. Don't say you're there for them but not "in this dysfunctional way" as that comes across as both a bit accusatory and dismissive. You can't do it because it's not an emotionally healthy thing for you to do right now. Cite your therapist as needed, probably even ask them for wording. 

If you want to kick the can to after the holidays, I think that would be fine (as long as you don't give the impression you will for-sure see them at therapy in 2022). 

Get off their social media (you couldn't pay me to be on my grown-but-young kids' social media). 

Never use the word woke again. 

[TravelingChris]

On 12/8/2021 at 12:45 PM, Home'scool said:

Thank you! I had never met the woman but she would not meet with me because of how I voted. I said to my daughter "and I am supposed to be the intolerant one?!"

I may be Conservative but I have made it clear to both girls that I will respect whoever they bring home (black, white, purple, gay, trans, whatever!) and that as long as they are happy I will be happy for them. My oldest came out as bisexual and I have supported her 100%. 

This is me too. I am actually libertarian/conservative but all three of my kids have hurled very hurtful messages at me.  And the most hurtful time was when one of them not only hurled awful accusations and lies about me but even worse, I found out what that person believes about another sibling in real terms- and that is the part I am having such a difficult time with- especially since both that sibling and my dh have similar views about both that other sibling and myself with regards to our health matters.  Or, I should say, dh has that view when he is irritable and hasn't had good sleep- unfortunately, he has refused to get a new appliance for his sleep apnea and I am really suffering with his irritability right now.

[Tanaqui]

Just to go back to the police memes one more time...

Was the relative who was a police officer offended? Because it does seem to me that he's the only one with any standing here. It's not his mother's job to feel disrespected on his behalf, and it's certainly not yours.

Without seeing the meme in question - and please, you don't need to share or quote it, god knows this conversation has drifted far enough into politics already - it's hard to say whether or not a disinterested person would consider that it might be offensive to a rookie cop - but at any rate, Rookie Cop probably doesn't want all his new police pals to think he needs his mama to defend him, much less his auntie. That meme is peak "Mind Your Own Business" material.

(Again, though - if you often find yourself upset at what your daughters (nieces, etc) post, the easiest solution is to unfollow. There is no law saying you need to follow their social media.)

[Carol in Cal.]

6 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Terminology/politics note: Big Lie is a term dating back to Hitler. It does not specifically have to do with the 2020 American presidential election.

Right, and it specifically refers to repeating something over and over so much that it becomes a truism even though it is not factually correct.

[Frances]

16 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Right, and it specifically refers to repeating something over and over so much that it becomes a truism even though it is not factually correct.

So exactly the perfect name for the 2020 stolen presidential election lie. And it started long before the election was even held. The very definition of propaganda.

[Frances]

11 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

There are several Big Lies that are floating around.  I don’t single out the one you do as the sole or primary Big Threat.  I can only think of a few politicians that I trust, and they are state or local ones.  So I don’t know who you consider trustworthy, but it’s probably someone that I would not.  

I don’t base my trust of politicians on their political affiliation, but on their words and actions. Since I don’t know anything about your state and local politicians, I don’t have any opinion on their trustworthiness. 
 

Of course there are other lies told by politicians, it’s not the sole threat to our democracy. When someone is so skilled at lying, manipulation, and propaganda, it becomes a regular part of their toolbox. Examples abound.
 

I will admit that having an intelligent, thoughtful, well educated fellow citizen like yourself literally shrug at the Big Lie scares the he** out of me for the future of our country. I mean I’m certainly glad you don’t believe it, but to dismiss it as no big deal despite the size, scope, and ongoing consequences? Or as others on the board are still attempting to do, posit false equivalencies with absolutely no supporting evidence.

The last six years have been like all of my years of studying social psychology writ large. I feel like I understand world and US history on a completely different and much deeper level.

[KungFuPanda]

I would not write the letter, but I would take a short break from the therapy, or find a therapist who doesn’t allow so much piling on. I WOULD make the effort to work on one area during this therapy break. That will be easier to do in a non-combative situation. “Kids, for my own mental health I’m taking a therapy break until February. However, I’m using this time to educate myself on _______ issue and am open to book recommendations.”

I’d start with white privilege. Read some books, take a class, watch some videos, and really delve into the topic. To my ears “they’ve become woke” sounds a lot like “what about socialization?” It’s equally cringy and tells me the person is lacking critical information. 
 

I’m not letting your daughters off the hook. It sounds like they want to punish you more than they want to work on the relationship. You all have your own work to do in different areas. 

[Garga]

If the daughters are posting on FB, you don’t have to unfollow them. You can snooze them for 30 days at a time. They’ll never know you’ve snoozed them. Unfollowing someone on SM is so dramatic.  I would stay away from the drama, and just snooze.

Not sure what you could do for other types of SM.

 

 

[readinmom]

Really sorry that you are going through this.  I've seen this so much lately...

In all of this, make sure to take care of yourself, to protect your heart and emotional well-being.  

[Meriwether]

I wonder how people reacting to the use of the word woke (which did not come from conservatives) feel about the word fundie. Bias is an interesting thing.

 

We have family members who have radically different ideologies from Dh and me. I am glad to have the opportunity to show the kids how someone can be wrong 😉 but well-meaning. There is a lot of hate out there. That hate, the utter contempt for others scares me more than any one issue.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Garga said:

If the daughters are posting on FB, you don’t have to unfollow them. You can snooze them for 30 days at a time. They’ll never know you’ve snoozed them. Unfollowing someone on SM is so dramatic.  I would stay away from the drama, and just snooze.

Unfollowing isn't dramatic. It's not unfriending. They won't know that their posts no longer show automatically in one's feed.

I have unfollowed almost everyone because of the sheer volume of posts, and I go to my friends' pages if I want to see their stuff. Zero drama there

Nothing wrong with curating your feed.

[MEmama]

11 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I wonder how people reacting to the use of the word woke (which did not come from conservatives) feel about the word fundie. Bias is an interesting thing.

 

We have family members who have radically different ideologies from Dh and me. I am glad to have the opportunity to show the kids how someone can be wrong 😉 but well-meaning. There is a lot of hate out there. That hate, the utter contempt for others scares me more than any one issue.

I mean, this isn’t relevant to  the conversation at all? I actually had to look up the word “fundie” because I’ve never heard or seen it used AFAIK. It seems to describe someone who is a Christian fundamentalist— isn’t that an actual, specific thing? Like an evangelical or a catholic or whatnot? Something they would consider themselves to be? 
 

To me “woke” basically means aware and sensitive (empathetic) to modern issues. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the word itself, but the use in the OP (and by a few others) is dismissive, as if learning about white privilege etc is somehow not something to take seriously, a “kids these days” type of mentality. 
 

I agree it’s a shame that so many people seem incapable or unwilling to self reflect on their biases and sort through with good faith which are warranted by actions versus which are merely parroting a narrative.
 

 

[Pam in CT]

re connotations of "woke" v "fundie"

18 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I wonder how people reacting to the use of the word woke (which did not come from conservatives) feel about the word fundie. Bias is an interesting thing....

I think this is fair.  And similarly fair: if either term seems cringe-y or snarky or biased or otherwise not-helpful... be careful about using the other.

 

Whoever we are, whatever our worldview, there are a LOT of pressures coming at us from multiple sources, seen and unseen, to provoke outrage and/or disdain, ramp up rhetorical language, "like" and "share" and "forward" on angry impulse and etc.  That's the world we live in.

It wrecks IRL relationships, as exemplified in the OP. And many other wider ills.

It's hard to see the pollution in the air we breathe, and harder still to figure out how to respond to it.  But watching our own language and being mindful of our own reflex toward the outrage cycle are two small access points.

 

 

[Garga]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Unfollowing isn't dramatic. It's not unfriending. They won't know that their posts no longer show automatically in one's feed.

I have unfollowed almost everyone because of the sheer volume of posts, and I go to my friends' pages if I want to see their stuff. Zero drama there

Nothing wrong with curating your feed.

Ah! I got unfollowing mixed up with unfriending. Ok—then unfollowing would work just fine.

[Pam in CT]

re origins of "woke" v "fundie"

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I mean, this isn’t relevant to  the conversation at all? I actually had to look up the word “fundie” because I’ve never heard or seen it used AFAIK. It seems to describe someone who is a Christian fundamentalist— isn’t that an actual, specific thing? Like an evangelical or a catholic or whatnot? Something they would consider themselves to be? 
 

To me “woke” basically means aware and sensitive (empathetic) to modern issues. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the word itself, but the use in the OP (and by a few others) is dismissive, as if learning about white privilege etc is somehow not something to take seriously, a “kids these days” type of mentality. 
 

I agree it’s a shame that so many people seem incapable or unwilling to self reflect on their biases and sort through with good faith which are warranted by actions versus which are merely parroting a narrative.
 

 

My (limited) understanding is that the term "fundamental" has some early usage among groups who self-identified with the term, but that the dimunutive "fundie" came from critics of the identification.  Kind of like "social justice" was used by people who viewed the work positively, and "Social Justice Warrior," capitalized and refering to the people rather than the work, was a term adopted by opponents, using it derisively.

Co-option of language is real. I don't know anyone, and have never read or heard anyone, who self-identifies positively as "right-winger" or SJW or FemiNazi or "fundie" or a slew of other terms, even where there may once have been origins to the terms that came from those who held them.  Similarly there may have been an original time when "be woke" had roots among people who embraced the term, or "fundamentalist reading of sacred texts" were embraced by those who held those view; but, both terms have looooooooong become a term of derision in wide enough usage that origins of the few have become eclipsed by derision of the many.

(That's a longstanding polemic tactic, of course.)

In any event: once we know better, we can do better.

[MEmama]

6 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re origins of "woke" v "fundie"

My (limited) understanding is that the term "fundamental" has some early usage among groups who self-identified with the term, but that the dimunutive "fundie" came from critics of the identification.  Kind of like "social justice" was used by people who viewed the work positively, and "Social Justice Warrior," capitalized and refering to the people rather than the work, was a term adopted by opponents, using it derisively.

Co-option of language is real. I don't know anyone, and have never read or heard anyone, who self-identifies positively as "right-winger" or SJW or FemiNazi or "fundie" or a slew of other terms, even where there may once have been origins to the terms that came from those who held them.  Similarly there may have been an original time when "be woke" had roots among people who embraced the term, or "fundamentalist reading of sacred texts" were embraced by those who held those view; but, both terms have looooooooong become a term of derision in wide enough usage that origins of the few have become eclipsed by derision of the many.

(That's a longstanding polemic tactic, of course.)

In any event: once we know better, we can do better.

Thanks for the explanation.
As I said, I’ve never actually heard “fundie” used and had to look it up. The first couple of definitions I read didn’t indicate a negative connotation and since Idk how religious people self identify, that wasn’t clear to me. I do hear a lot of people refer to themselves proudly as evangelicals, which in my general religious ignorance seems to be about the same thing as fundamentalist. Either way, it’s not an identification I care one way or another about, until it starts infringing on my freedom to not be affected. 🙂 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Thanks for the explanation.
As I said, I’ve never actually heard “fundie” used and had to look it up. The first couple of definitions I read didn’t indicate a negative connotation and since Idk how religious people self identify, that wasn’t clear to me. I do hear a lot of people refer to themselves proudly as evangelicals, which in my general religious ignorance seems to be about the same thing as fundamentalist. Either way, it’s not an identification I care one way or another about, until it starts infringing on my freedom to not be affected. 🙂 

The word “fundie” is used often on these boards in a derisive manner. I bet if you look at the Duggar thread you will find it there. 

[MEmama]

55 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The word “fundie” is used often on these boards in a derisive manner. I bet if you look at the Duggar thread you will find it there. 

Ah, I’m mostly staying away from that thread! 

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Meriwether said:

I wonder how people reacting to the use of the word woke (which did not come from conservatives) feel about the word fundie. Bias is an interesting thing.

I don't actually have anything against the word woke, but I think it's problematic for the OP because of her very specific situation. Putting it in scare quotes and such seems dismissive, and, even if she never uses it with her dds anymore, it's a way of neatly packaging a bunch of issues they have, when they actually need to be carefully unpacked. 

Saying, 'My kids and I are having a lot of issues and our relationship is really strained. They have all these "fundie" beliefs, which makes things extra difficult.' would be just as problematic. 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

I don't actually have anything against the word woke, but I think it's problematic for the OP because of her very specific situation. Putting it in scare quotes and such seems dismissive, and, even if she never uses it with her dds anymore, it's a way of neatly packaging a bunch of issues they have, when they actually need to be carefully unpacked. 

Saying, 'My kids and I are having a lot of issues and our relationship is really strained. They have all these "fundie" beliefs, which makes things extra difficult.' would be just as problematic. 

Yes, that's it exactly. I didn't say anything about the use of "woke" because I'm coming from the liberal end and use it - both jokingly and somewhat seriously and I don't have any real inherent issue with it, but it still rubbed me the wrong way in her post. It's the overall context. It's not the word itself for me. She could have just said "liberal" in quotes and in the context of saying all this stuff about how she doesn't understand her kids and they're so horrible to her it would have come off similarly dismissive and belittling.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Farrar

[Sneezyone]

I saw this in an Atlantic article:

Quote

“Stephanie Coontz, the director of education and research for the Council on Contemporary Families, told me in an email. “For most of history, family relationships were based on mutual obligations rather than on mutual understanding. Parents or children might reproach the other for failing to honor/acknowledge their duty, but the idea that a relative could be faulted for failing to honor/acknowledge one’s ‘identity’ would have been incomprehensible.” 

And this on a blog post: 

Quote

“I do wonder if that's not the key for an awful lot of parents who are surprised and appalled that their children have grievances with them. If they were beaten down by terrible parenting and never saw themselves having the choice to leave, and they did better by their own kids - less violence, more love and support - they may end up with kids who are able to enforce boundaries and demand respect as adults better than they could themselves.”

And agreed with both. It actually gave me a lot of comfort to see it said that way. You can do the best you can and it still not be enough. You can move super far in the right direction and find your kids have moved even further, faster. There have been a lot of changes around familial relationships in the last 50 years and there are a lot of parents still relying on the concept of duty and obligation to ensure ties. Things like, “I was there when no one else was. Child didn’t live through HALF of what I did so they should be grateful.” is an example of that line of thought. I can understand that sentiment from a parent perspective but don’t subscribe to it. I hope I’ve earned my peeps’ respect but that’s not for me to say. I am never going to be finished learning how to do well by them.

I cheer OP for being willing to go to therapy. It night be time to take the prior advice and find her own therapist to process what she is hearing/has heard separately tho. Trying to listen and process in the same session doesn’t seem to be working. By the same token, I don’t think OP’s kids would be trying so hard to communicate and bridge the gap if they didn’t want to maintain/have a relationship. They don’t have *ANY* relationship with their father. They are *TRYING* with OP.

If OP approaches this situation as, “I am who I am and they should take it or leave it.” That’s a direct challenge that her kids just might accept. I don’t think that’s what she wants. The idea that they will necessarily suffer more for the lack of connection than OP herself and come running back is also a big, fat, challenge that could end in more hurt for OP.  

I admit that the paraphrased comments OP included raise red flags for me. Much like the “missing missing” blog post linked earlier, this is something my mother does too. The example used for ‘disrespect’ toward the cousin and aunt aren’t disrespectful at all. Surely they can have a difference of opinion about policy without it being a personal affront. I suspect the DDs have written things to OP, in their own words, that explain more clearly what they are trying to say and I question whether those actual words convey the same message as the paraphrasing. 

That said, my Dad and I have VERY different views politically. I’ve been super open about that. We get along like a house on fire because we have tremendous respect for each other. My Dad, bless his heart, is an amazing listener. He’s stubborn but still open to learning and growing and changing. He knows my sibs and I are more liberal. He does a giant belly laugh, and says it’s OK, we still have time to change our minds. He doesn’t disrespect our thoughts or put ‘liberal’ or ‘woke’ in air quotes. He voted for the orange clown too. It was incredibly disappointing for me but it didn’t change our relationship much at all. My Dad regularly attends AA meetings and hasn’t had a drink in over 25 years. He repeats things back. He asks, “What am I missing? In an open, non-accusative way. He stays curious. He doesn’t take our criticisms of systems or policies or even his candidate of choice personally. He doesn’t take my specific criticisms of the theology of his church personally either (and we have repeatedly discussed the way it diverges from the lessons he imparted to us as kids). We don’t agree on LOTS of things but I always feel heard by him. It seems to me, that’s what OPs daughters are missing most.

ETA- If OP needs to step back from group work, by all means do that but not because “THEY need to sort themselves out” but because ALL have work to do individually.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Sneezyone