facebook is FULL of people posting get togethers, group meals, group selfies

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, livetoread said:

This haunts me, too. I read about a older woman who was interviewed about the possibility of dying alone. She said at first she was frightened by the thought, but then thought some more and said she would just picture her loving family around her. She knew they would be there if they could, and so knowing that made it easier to feel their presence, even from a distance, and it gave her peace just to know she was that loved. It made me cry to read it, and it makes me cry to type it now. It's lovely and heart-breaking at the same time, and I love that woman for saying it. It made me feel better about the possibility of my own parents being in that situation.

That is only possible if they are in sufficient possession of their mental faculties to understand what is going on.
Can you imagine an old person who may not understand about the pandemic, lying there week after week, waiting and wondering why he has been forsaken by his family? Breaks my heart.

[ScoutTN]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm with you. I was just thinking about the upside of this pandemic. (I know that sounds terrible.) One of the good things that has come out of this is seeing the truth about so many people and organizations, especially churches.  

I just read an article about how people aren't returning to church now that churches are opening up again. It was the typical "this is what is wrong with people" article. Very tone-deaf. I know plenty of people who swore off church because of the "faith not fear" garbage. 

I've been saying for months that religion in the USA lost so much credibility during this crisis. There will be consequences due to that lost credibility but so many churches choose to flip out over masks. Geez - not even the vaccine but a piece of fabric. 🙄  

And speaking of the vaccine - just wait for that disaster. Some organizations are going to try to play both sides by being silent about the vaccine but that's not going to work. 

Anti-science/anti-vax BS chickens coming home to roost...

 

Not all churches, not even all very conservative churches, advocate the faith/fear dichotomy or are anti-science, or have significant political overtones.

I totally get that some people are frustrated, but they can find another church. (Yes, harder in these times, but not impossible.) Being fed up with a particular church is not a valid reason to abandon the Church, the Body of Christ. 

I think these times have caused many to consider their spiritual condition in new ways; culled out people whose church life was largely social, superficial, or  not based on real faith; and created a deeper love for the genuine community and fellowship of normal church life. 

My pastor called it right in one of his spring Zoom sermons whrn he said that unity will be a deeper challenge to the Church than the virus itself. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by ScoutTN

[livetoread]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is only possible if they are in sufficient possession of their mental faculties to understand what is going on.
Can you imagine an old person who may not understand about the pandemic, lying there week after week, waiting and wondering why he has been forsaken by his family? Breaks my heart.

Yes, that would be awful. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, ScoutTN said:

I think these times have caused many to consider their spiritual condition in new ways; culled out people whose church life was largely social, superficial, or  not based on real faith; and created a deeper love for the genuine community and fellowship of normal church life. 

I'm not sure I'm willing to dismiss everyone who's behaved abominably as people who didn't have "real faith." Sometimes, people were in churches that ENCOURAGED evil behavior. Is it really a sign of their "lack of faith" that they listened to their religious leaders? 

[Not_a_Number]

Whoops. Wrong thread. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[regentrude]

10 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Being fed up with a particular church is not a valid reason to abandon the Church, the Body of Christ. 

That sounds extremely judgmental. How do you get to decide what is a "valid" reason for a person to leave the Church?

The behavior of people who proclaim to represent Christianity can definitely be a valid reason for a person to decide that they no longer wish to associate with organized religion. The only person who gets to say what is "valid" is the one making that choice.

[mathnerd]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

 Am I the only person who feels sick when I physically avoid another person walking down the street?

I actually feel that I am being very considerate to them when I am avoiding them as this is a raging pandemic with a severely contagious virus and I don't want to be near anyone nor give them anxiety by strolling close to them (I am always masked, btw). I feel pretty good when I smile and nod and wave and jump off the sidewalk into the street to avoid another person walking down the street.

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, I agree that many churches did the right thing. 

I'm sorry but I think the bolded sounds very judgmental. 

There is always a tendency to blame the people who leave, "they didn't have enough faith," "they didn't understand their faith." I've noticed that people who convert to our church are really smart and great and people who convert from our church didn't have enough faith or weren't educated enough about their faith. 

I agree unity is a challenge but assuming that people who leave didn't have "real faith" does not help to promote unity. 

 

I agree. Therecould be many good reasons for leaving a church in these times I think my post was not clear. I was narrating what I am seeing.

I am a member at a large, liturgical, evangelical church. We have both livestream and in-person worship. In-person is madked and distanced. 200ish people in a neo-gothic cathedral style sanctuary that seats 1200. We have had people fade away and drop out for all the reasons I listed, including unbelief.  I know several of these people personally. Jesus and the gospel are just not the center of their lives, not the core of their identity and heart and desires. The times have brought them clearer understanding of themselves and they have adjusted their lives accordingly.

We have had people leave for other reasons too: anti-maskers and very far right political folks for sure. 

We have had people join who are refugees from politicized, anti-mask churches. People who reject the fear/faith line and are seeking more Biblical teaching.

I did not mean to say that anyone who leaves a church in  these times does not have faith. Sorry if it came across that way.

Eta: I live in the South and there is lots and lots of cultural Christianity here. Many people who go because that's just what is done in many circles. Good way to make friends etc. The pandemic has caused some of those people to actually wrestle, for the first time in their lives, with what they really believe. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by ScoutTN

[ScoutTN]

56 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That sounds extremely judgmental. How do you get to decide what is a "valid" reason for a person to leave the Church?

The behavior of people who proclaim to represent Christianity can definitely be a valid reason for a person to decide that they no longer wish to associate with organized religion. The only person who gets to say what is "valid" is the one making that choice.

Valid subjectively for that person, sure. 

But Biblical, historic, small "o" orthodox Christianity is always communal. The corporate dimension of the Christian life is not optional, if one is to live within biblical parameters. This is true in RC, Orthodox, and Protestant churches. Yes, occasional exceptions like remote missionaries in extremely difficult geography, St. John on Patmos, believers in unreached people groups who are converted through visions and the Word apart from community, prisoners in some circumstances, or temporary isolation for prayer/retreat. But in normal life, in all times, Christians are to live as part of the Body of Christ. To do otherwise is to live in denial of part of one's God given identity and purpose. Do some Christians do this and choose to live utterly unconnected to the Body of Christ? Yes, of course,  but historic, biblical Christianty teaches that this is not a valid or acceptable choice for one who professes to be a Christian, for one who is united with Christ by faith. Part of being a Christian is submitting to God's direction for our lives and being part of the visible church (whatever that looks like in a particular culture and time) is an essential aspect of that life. Belivers are by definition part of a spiritual family that has physical reality and involves real relationships. God decides what is valid or right for Christians, though most of us are crummy at living it out.

To leave a church is not the same as leaving the Church. 

People get dismayed or disappointed or whatever with a church. Fine. Find another one. The Church is quite diverse and there are a multiude of expressions of Christianity.

If one doesn't hold to the essentials of Christian faith, by all means, do not remain in a church. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by ScoutTN

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Amy Gen said:

I feel like this is a time to pray the serenity prayer. I don’t really understand getting so upset about something that we have absolutely no control over. 
 

I have control over how my family and I behave. I feel like we are on a number line and we call anyone to the left of us too careless, but we need to acknowledge that there are people to the right of us who are judging us as being way too lax. I don’t see any room for self-righteousness here. We are all doing what we think is best considering our own limited knowledge and unique circumstances. 
 

I’m sad that I haven’t been able to see my oldest all summer or over the holidays, but it was a decision that we agreed on as being best for our family. We don’t blame other people for our decision.
 

I think my oldest has been more careful than anyone I know. She hasn’t been in a store or restaurant since March. Her groceries are delivered. Her work and classes are online. She takes her walks at midnight so she won’t encounter others on the street. Nevertheless, in August, on her birthday, she drove to Chicago to get a dog from a kill shelter. She had an appointment and wore a mask, but FOR HER, the isolation was worse than the risk of getting COVID during that outing. So there is surely someone who is farther down the spectrum of caution who would judge her as completely irresponsible for not just sucking it up and remaining dogless and completely alone. 
 

My point is that someone is going to judge you no matter what you choose and worrying about that judgment is a waste of time because it is out of your control. 
 

My best friend was very cautious early on. She didn’t let her college aged son come home for spring break because he and his girlfriend went to the movies. She has moved away from being so cautious. I don’t know all of the reasons, but since she is a person who I respect, I believe that she has reason to decide that the benefits outweigh the risks for her specific situation. She doesn’t owe me an explanation of what that situation might be. It isn’t going to change my faith in her or love for her. 
 

I have a friend here who always wears a mask around me while we visit outside. I haven’t seen him, and worried he might be sick, but Dd told me to keep it hush hush but his family went on vacation for the holidays. Who am I to judge him or change my feelings about his family. Clearly, they felt like the need was more important than the risks. 

I’m doing my best to be careful, but my son’s girlfriend is visiting now. I think it is lowish risk because she takes classes and works online but it isn’t completely without risk. I choose to encourage this because the risk is less (in my estimation) than the effect that total isolation would have on him. 
 

I just assume that my friends are making the same thoughtful, hard choices that I am. They don’t need to justify their choices to me, any more than I owe them an explanation. 
 

It does rub me the wrong way when people  post on FB about how everyone should be absolutely perfect at all times in their caution but I later find out that they were at a Halloween party and their kids play daily at the neighbor’s, but that doesn’t count in their minds because those people are “in their pod”. Give me a break. 
 

My biggest issue with FB lately is that I have nothing interesting to post because I’m not doing anything interesting. But that is a new challenge for me to address. 

In general, I agree with you. But when many of the people being most public about defying mandates and not doing what they can to protect and care about others are the same conservative Christians and Christian leaders constantly calling others such as gays, immoral, and blaming so many of the world’s problems on them and actively working to deny them rights, then it’s pretty darn hard to not be very angry about their own lack of consistency and morals. They use their power and and majority status to condemn and deny rights to others because it is what they think is best for society and fits with their Christian worldview, but can’t even be bothered to do something as simple as wear a mask or limit large gatherings to protect others. Ditto for their obviously fake pro-life views.

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

But they are not just risking themselves, is the issue. I'm not frustrated because I'm jealous, I'm frustrated because their behavior could kill others. And a lot of it is just pure "cause I wanna". There is no NEED to have a 30 person Christmas party with hired staff. That's a want. And we as a country have forgotten how to figure out the difference. 

This is where I'm at. If people could forgo wants that are truly just wants, people who really need to be near other people could do so more safely. That's about the extent of my thinking. I don't begrudge anyone working out of the home, seeing an elderly relative, or sending kids to school, or being around others for mental health reasons. Then you just do your best. 

[Farrar]

I have a relative who has been to two out of town weddings in the last two weeks. I just needed to get that off my chest. Thank you.

Sigh. It's frustrating. I have also taken some risks... and I don't know what mitigation strategies are being employed in all cases (though sometimes, it clearly wouldn't matter - if you're indoors eating in relatively close proximity with a room of 30+ people, then there's no way to make that anything approaching safe... sorry, folks) but the general, I'm just living my life attitude is frustrating.

[cabercro]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Anecdotally, half the people I know are podding with their family. We're seeing MORE of the grandparents right now than we do normally. We just don't see anyone else. 

This is/was the case for us. DH and I are both teachers. Our 3 yo daughter spent March-Aug. at home with us when schools closed. We brought both sets of grandparents into the pod mid-summer once everyone felt we had a handle on what was safe/not safe. When school started back (remotely) in August we were required to come to the building to work, so the four grands + the Fun Aunt took over her daily care. Once the kids came back in October, DD went back to daycare and we went back to seeing each other only outside, distanced with masks.

I know it goes without saying that this year has been awful, and we completely realize how privileged we are, but goodness those 6 months of March to October were a blessing. 

[frogger]

4 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

I agree. Therecould be many good reasons for leaving a church in these times I think my post was not clear. I was narrating what I am seeing.

I am a member at a large, liturgical, evangelical church. We have both livestream and in-person worship. In-person is madked and distanced. 200ish people in a neo-gothic cathedral style sanctuary that seats 1200. We have had people fade away and drop out for all the reasons I listed, including unbelief.  I know several of these people personally. Jesus and the gospel are just not the center of their lives, not the core of their identity and heart and desires. The times have brought them clearer understanding of themselves and they have adjusted their lives accordingly.

We have had people leave for other reasons too: anti-maskers and very far right political folks for sure. 

We have had people join who are refugees from politicized, anti-mask churches. People who reject the fear/faith line and are seeking more Biblical teaching.

I did not mean to say that anyone who leaves a church in  these times does not have faith. Sorry if it came across that way.

Eta: I live in the South and there is lots and lots of cultural Christianity here. Many people who go because that's just what is done in many circles. Good way to make friends etc. The pandemic has caused some of those people to actually wrestle, for the first time in their lives, with what they really believe. 

I have seen a bit of a shake up among churches. People have joined our church fleeing other churches but some have left our church as well.

 

One thing that bothers me about modern society is that we are always looking for people who think just like us be it church, homeschooling co-op or any other group. I realize it is easier to get along with like minded folks but I worry about our ability to communicate, compromise, and put others needs first. Our ability to actually listen to the other side (of any disagreement) is really lacking. 

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Terabith said:

I have less concern for the babies and small children than I do pretty much anyone else.  Tiny ones don’t really need a huge community outside of nuclear family.  

My children didn't have hardly any extended family contact at all- only one set of gps were alive when ds and dd were born, and one of them died before last one was born and only dd1 had contact with them as an infant since they came to Ohio very soon after she was born.   But ds and dd2 were born in CA.   

I also grew up with no extended family anywhere near us except an uncle who probably was on the spectrum and definitely wasn't into cuddling or probably holding an infant/  (My extended family was all overseas). 

[Danae]

13 hours ago, busymama7 said:

I'm not concerned as much about a baby only socializing with their immediate family.  But like we go to church.  It is distanced and masked.  What effect will this have on my 6 and 8 year olds who aren't allowed to go up to their friends or hug the grandmotherly woman who they are close to.  Yes they know why and mostly take things in stride.  But we don't know how this will affect them long term and if they will be able to interact with people normally after this *especially* if it takes years to go back to normal.  It's not normal to not sit next to church members or play on the playground with your friends etc.  They have each other for which I am so grateful. But they are being told to stay away from kids or adults they may come across and I hate it. I do it anyways and we talk about it.   But I worry about long term psychological effects like anxiety.  I saw my 3 year old grand niece briefly outdoors and it was SO strange to not be able to talk and interact with her normally.  She couldn't see me talk or smile at her nor could she come up and sit with me or play etc.  It gave me the sickest feeling.  I am very concerned.  I think it's necessary, but I don't think it's without consequences.  

On our Zoom church service yesterday we played some recorded reflections from leaders in our denomination, to give the pastor a week off from preparing a sermon. One of the speakers mentioned watching the show “Hope in the Wild” which is about wildlife rehabilitation and re-introducing animals to their natural habitats after crisis-care, and that we all are going to need intentional re-introduction into “the wild” when this crisis is over. It was a minor part of what she said, but it stuck with me. Especially for kids who are young enough that not constantly taking precautions will feel like a disruption of normal instead of a return to normal.

[MEmama]

NM. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by MEmama

[mom2scouts]

9 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

My children didn't have hardly any extended family contact at all- only one set of gps were alive when ds and dd were born, and one of them died before last one was born and only dd1 had contact with them as an infant since they came to Ohio very soon after she was born.   But ds and dd2 were born in CA.   

I also grew up with no extended family anywhere near us except an uncle who probably was on the spectrum and definitely wasn't into cuddling or probably holding an infant/  (My extended family was all overseas). 

This is very much my experience. I had little to no contact with extended family as a child. My own children, especially my two youngest, are the youngest grandchildren on both sides and, when they were born, their cousins were already adults, one set of grandparents had already died, the other set of grandparents were past the excitement about grandchildren (and already had great grandchildren), and we didn't live near other relatives. I don't think they've suffered too much from not having extended family around and I think most babies and toddlers will be OK.

[TravelingChris]

17 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Can we also agree that there is a huge difference between meeting a few relatives, masked, and 100+ person get together, unmasked? I totally understand that people want to see parents and children. I am upset when I see my relative, who is supposed to be in a bubble—and whose other members are taking precautions—unmasked at a very large gathering. Other photos show trips to see friends, restaurants, etc.  

There’s a range of behavior, iykwim. I only find some of it egregiously unsafe.

I got upset today about a basketball game in my city that I saw on the news that had hardly anyone wearing masks at all.  No, not the players, but the audience.  

Now, my friends on Facebook have not posted photos of large gatherings at all.  I have seen photos of families with masks.  

[TravelingChris]

17 hours ago, Terabith said:

I don't think it's ideal, at all, but I have a lot less worry about the ability of a baby or toddler who is in lockdown for a year to recover than for the older teens/ college students/ young adults just trying to start out and establish themselves.  I think that's the group for whom there will be long lasting repercussions that are hard to recover from, not necessarily in terms of social anxiety but in terms of educational and economic repercussions.  

Yes.  I agree with this.

[TravelingChris]

17 hours ago, Quill said:

I am skeptical of that assertion. I think one thing modern life does badly is inter-generational nurturing. Babies and toddlers get a LOT out of extended family, inter-generational interaction. It goes a long way to help children grow up socially healthy. 

I don't think it is necessary at all.  I think this is pie in the sky type of thinking.  I mean, it isn't just modern life--- lots of people throughout the centuries didn't have access to grandparents due to wars, moves, illnesses, etc.  I know that my mother and father never even mentioned having grand parents in the picture- I have no idea if they had been alive or not or if they just didn't see them much.  My mother grew up in aristocracy and didn\t even see her parents much- as a young child, she saw her mother when she was sick.  First nannies and then governesses took care of her and her siblings (and taught them too).I expect she may have been eating with them at some age before she was captured by the Soviets and sent to the gulag, but definitely not in early childhood and probably not until about 10 at least.

My children did fine and so did I.  And so did a lot of kids whose grandparents were all dead or continents away or far enough away or kids who don't have cousins, etc.  

[SKL]

17 hours ago, Quill said:

I am skeptical of that assertion. I think one thing modern life does badly is inter-generational nurturing. Babies and toddlers get a LOT out of extended family, inter-generational interaction. It goes a long way to help children grow up socially healthy. 

Yes, and while nuclear families can make up for it to some degree by having the kids participate in community activities such as daycare/preschool, clubs and classes, or even just meeting new friends at the playground, all that has been abolished too.

[TravelingChris]

17 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm with you. I was just thinking about the upside of this pandemic. (I know that sounds terrible.) One of the good things that has come out of this is seeing the truth about so many people and organizations, especially churches.  

I just read an article about how people aren't returning to church now that churches are opening up again. It was the typical "this is what is wrong with people" article. Very tone-deaf. I know plenty of people who swore off church because of the "faith not fear" garbage. 

I've been saying for months that religion in the USA lost so much credibility during this crisis. There will be consequences due to that lost credibility but so many churches choose to flip out over masks. Geez - not even the vaccine but a piece of fabric. 🙄  

And speaking of the vaccine - just wait for that disaster. Some organizations are going to try to play both sides by being silent about the vaccine but that's not going to work. 

Anti-science/anti-vax BS chickens coming home to roost...

 

We aren't returning to church because even with masks, social distancing and all,  I know my church with its one service still has about 80-85 in the sanctuary typically for that hour so there is that aspect.  Secondly, we have an online service we prefer given that we now have one live service- we can fast forward through the awful praise band music and only listen to the traditional music (no, not all contemporary is bad- our band is - it plays all songs like dirges and if anything, it makes me think unChristian thoughts so better to fast forward through it) and there is no singing or choir.  

Our church is not anti-science or anything like that.

[SKL]

17 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I agree - but that is why it is so important to keep that extended family healthy - so they get years and years fo that love.

There is no guarantee at all that staying away from our older relatives will give them years to enjoy us.

This is one of the hardest things for me.  Trying to weigh the risk that we could miss the last chance to be together, against the risk that this could be the last time because we're together.  What I do see is that not seeing their kids is making my parents sicker, not healthier.  It seriously scares me.  Maybe if I stayed 100% away, I would not see this and I would worry less.  And to me, that is even more scary.

[SKL]

16 hours ago, mathnerd said:

I actually feel that I am being very considerate to them when I am avoiding them as this is a raging pandemic with a severely contagious virus and I don't want to be near anyone nor give them anxiety by strolling close to them (I am always masked, btw). I feel pretty good when I smile and nod and wave and jump off the sidewalk into the street to avoid another person walking down the street.

Yes, I feel considerate in my mind, but I feel sick in my gut.

I also hate that while I may be smiling widely, the other person has no way to know that if I'm masked.

[frogger]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

There is no guarantee at all that staying away from our older relatives will give them years to enjoy us.

This is one of the hardest things for me.  Trying to weigh the risk that we could miss the last chance to be together, against the risk that this could be the last time because we're together.  What I do see is that not seeing their kids is making my parents sicker, not healthier.  It seriously scares me.  Maybe if I stayed 100% away, I would not see this and I would worry less.  And to me, that is even more scary.

Yep. My husband lost two grandparents this fall. Even their own children couldn't say goodbye. They both died alone, never to be seen again. Neither died of Covid. One of just old age and one of a cancer and stroke double whammy. 

[MEmama]

Just now, SKL said:

Yes, I feel considerate in my mind, but I feel sick in my gut.

I also hate that while I may be smiling widely, the other person has no way to know that if I'm masked.

Why not just wave? That’s what folks here do. There’s nothing unpleasant about it. 
 

[frogger]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yes, I feel considerate in my mind, but I feel sick in my gut.

I also hate that while I may be smiling widely, the other person has no way to know that if I'm masked.

Wave, nod, and if close enough I can tell a person is smiling. Smiles are more obvious around the eyes than the mouth but maybe that is because I grew up with and then married bearded men. Crinkles around the eyes say it all. 

 

I find people are very open to conversation at the store too. I think they are lonely. Whether asking about where something is or if something matches or making comments on the weather or their fogged up glasses I find people very pleasant to interact with in the grocery stores. 

 

I know it isn't that simple for deaf people but overall I think masks are what people make of them. 

[MEmama]

44 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I don't think it is necessary at all.  I think this is pie in the sky type of thinking.  I mean, it isn't just modern life--- lots of people throughout the centuries didn't have access to grandparents due to wars, moves, illnesses, etc.  I know that my mother and father never even mentioned having grand parents in the picture- I have no idea if they had been alive or not or if they just didn't see them much.  My mother grew up in aristocracy and didn\t even see her parents much- as a young child, she saw her mother when she was sick.  First nannies and then governesses took care of her and her siblings (and taught them too).I expect she may have been eating with them at some age before she was captured by the Soviets and sent to the gulag, but definitely not in early childhood and probably not until about 10 at least.

My children did fine and so did I.  And so did a lot of kids whose grandparents were all dead or continents away or far enough away or kids who don't have cousins, etc.  

Yeah, I don’t whether to laugh or feel insulted by the assertion that babies need to be surrounded by aunties, cousins and grandparents to become socially adept. Neither my DH, myself nor our DS grew up that way and we are just fine, thank you. I think people making those claims might find it has always been a very very normal way to grow up. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by MEmama

[SKL]

14 hours ago, Frances said:

In general, I agree with you. But when many of the people being most public about defying mandates and not doing what they can to protect and care about others are the same conservative Christians and Christian leaders constantly calling others such as gays, immoral, and blaming so many of the world’s problems on them and actively working to deny them rights, then it’s pretty darn hard to not be very angry about their own lack of consistency and morals. They use their power and and majority status to condemn and deny rights to others because it is what they think is best for society and fits with their Christian worldview, but can’t even be bothered to do something as simple as wear a mask or limit large gatherings to protect others. Ditto for their obviously fake pro-life views.

Just curious how you know the details of what these churches are teaching about everything, if you don't attend there?
 

I think it's fairly common knowledge that there is a continuum of how churches (and other faiths' gathering places) are responding to the pandemic, from completely shutting their doors to online / SD to trying not to change a thing. 

I don't know that this corresponds to the continuum of how churches teach about other things.  I think it's more likely that the continuum comment applies to both spiritually liberal and conservative churches.  But I don't know for sure, because I haven't done detailed research to match these up.  I think just knowing that there is this one church you know of that preaches against homosexuality AND doesn't require masks means that's how *that church* is doing it.  You wouldn't have attended that church anyway, pandemic or no, right?

This might be a good time for Christians (and people of other faiths) to explore other spiritual options, but blaming one church's actions for dumping the whole thing is childish.  I mean I did that when I was 15 - I didn't like the way our pastor responded to a sincere question I asked, so I dropped out all together.  But I was 15.  That was not a rational or grown-up decision.

[SKL]

35 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

We aren't returning to church because even with masks, social distancing and all,  I know my church with its one service still has about 80-85 in the sanctuary typically for that hour so there is that aspect.  Secondly, we have an online service we prefer given that we now have one live service- we can fast forward through the awful praise band music and only listen to the traditional music (no, not all contemporary is bad- our band is - it plays all songs like dirges and if anything, it makes me think unChristian thoughts so better to fast forward through it) and there is no singing or choir.  

Our church is not anti-science or anything like that.

Sadly, I can relate to this.  I feel very guilty admitting it, but oh my.  And it's worse hearing it online somehow.  😛

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, Choirfarm3 said:

It's not that. It is having relationships with people who are generations older than we are. It can be a neighbor or church member. But I think society lacks something without intergenerational relationships.

Well I didn’t have that either other than my parents.
 

But the whole convo is getting kinda ridiculous. I mean, it’s a pandemic, it’s hard, it sucks. For everyone. Personally I think little ones will be the least affected. Same with my own generation—gen Xers are made for this. Lol.

Regardless this isn’t about *society*, it’s about a year or two. I think we all need some perspective. 

[TravelingChris]

15 hours ago, Frances said:

In general, I agree with you. But when many of the people being most public about defying mandates and not doing what they can to protect and care about others are the same conservative Christians and Christian leaders constantly calling others such as gays, immoral, and blaming so many of the world’s problems on them and actively working to deny them rights, then it’s pretty darn hard to not be very angry about their own lack of consistency and morals. They use their power and and majority status to condemn and deny rights to others because it is what they think is best for society and fits with their Christian worldview, but can’t even be bothered to do something as simple as wear a mask or limit large gatherings to protect others. Ditto for their obviously fake pro-life views.

You do realize that most of us, even conservatives who are Christians, do not believe or follow any of these so-called Christian leaders.  I don't even know who these so-called leaders are supposed to be,  I haven't been to any church ever that blamed everything or anything on gays.  The churches I have ever attended do wear masks and limit large gatherings.    The churches many of us attend, some, like me, now virtually, do encourage mask wearing and limiting gatherings.  

[frogger]

3 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

But the whole point is not to be close to them!!! I shouldn't be talking to people in the grocery store. I go early and practically run through.

And yes, I'm starved for conversation and very lonely. But it isn't safe, right???

I don't need to be in their face to speak to them. I can see their eyes while they are standing in line on their little X behind me at their proper distance. Gee, if you can't say something to someone while you wait for them to get a bag of chicken out so you can get your bag of chicken out (as if it makes a difference if you say a friendly comment) then no wonder people are commiting suicide. 

 

One can be friendly without adding to risk. I have to go to the grocery store anyway. It's not like we are getting snuggled up and having an hour long conversation on our personal lives.

[Jean in Newcastle]

9 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Well I didn’t have that either other than my parents.
 

But the whole convo is getting kinda ridiculous. I mean, it’s a pandemic, it’s hard, it sucks. For everyone. Personally I think little ones will be the least affected. Same with my own generation—gen Xers are made for this. Lol.

Regardless this isn’t about *society*, it’s about a year or two. I think we all need some perspective. 

I agree.  Just to piggyback off of this:

From a Christian perspective, if your (generic you) faith can't handle a couple of years of hardship in this regard (and truly it's only been 8 months so far) then your faith needs strengthening.  This isn't a judgment but an observation based on Biblical principles. 

If you (again generic  you) can't find ways to talk to people in a time of cell phones, internet, as well as old fashioned letters, cards and just talking to people - then you must be trying hard not to talk to people.  Six feet is not that far to project your voice in a cheery "Hi!"  And it's not too far to have a talk about whatever is on your heart as well.  You won't have a lot of privacy if you're doing it in a crowded venue, but we're not talking about crowded venues in this context.

Whatever happened to realistically looking at a situation, acknowledging the problems but looking for solutions which might not be perfect but aren't impossible either.  I am not saying this as a Pollyanna but as someone who thinks that wallowing in misery isn't the answer either. 

Again - this whole post here is generic. 

[Pawz4me]

51 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

This is one of the hardest things for me.  Trying to weigh the risk that we could miss the last chance to be together, against the risk that this could be the last time because we're together.

IMO the decision should rest with the most vulnerable person. And their wishes should be respected. In my world that's my DH. If his family members were making even the most basic efforts--like masking most of the time and avoiding large crowds and not eating in restaurants--then he'd be okay seeing them. But they aren't. In fact, they recently attended a large wedding, including spending several hours at a packed reception. They eat out several times a week. And those are their choices. But they should respect DH's choice to not see them, not continually pester and harangue him (us) about it. He's every bit as much, perhaps more, concerned about his oncologist and his staff as he is about himself. How would we feel if we unknowingly exposed them, and as a result many patients couldn't get care for a few weeks? We've got our issues, but being selfish and self centered aren't among them.

34 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Yeah, I don’t whether to laugh or feel insulted by the assertion that babies need to be surrounded by aunties, cousins and grandparents to become socially adept. Neither my DH, myself nor our DS grew up that way and we are just fine, thank you. I think people making those claims might find it has always been a very very normal way to grow up. 

Agreed. I'm as pro inter-generational relationships as anyone. But as something to make my list of things to worry about right now? It wouldn't be in the top one hundred.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Pawz4me

[ktgrok]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

There is no guarantee at all that staying away from our older relatives will give them years to enjoy us.

This is one of the hardest things for me.  Trying to weigh the risk that we could miss the last chance to be together, against the risk that this could be the last time because we're together.  What I do see is that not seeing their kids is making my parents sicker, not healthier.  It seriously scares me.  Maybe if I stayed 100% away, I would not see this and I would worry less.  And to me, that is even more scary.

Well sure, there are no absolutes, but we can look at the risks and judge them. For many people who are in good health, the odds are they have years left. But those odds go down if they get Covid. Obviously, as I've said before, the risk ratio will change based on a lot of factors. Nothing is absolute. 

[Amy Gen]

24 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

You do realize that most of us, even conservatives who are Christians, do not believe or follow any of these so-called Christian leaders.  I don't even know who these so-called leaders are supposed to be,  I haven't been to any church ever that blamed everything or anything on gays.  The churches I have ever attended do wear masks and limit large gatherings.    The churches many of us attend, some, like me, now virtually, do encourage mask wearing and limiting gatherings.  

I read the description as a bit of a stereotype. I don’t know any people like that, and if I did, they sure wouldn’t be on my FB feed. 
 

My Dh records our church service on zoom so that people can attend without risk. The 5 people in the church for the recording are masked the entire time. 
 

My priest was not born in the US. He cares works tirelessly for people of color in our denomination. He also refuses to pastor any church where his gay son is not welcome. 
 

These are the Christians I know. I’ve never seen the kind that hate gays and only care for the unborn. That is really saying something because I’m from Texas. 

[rebcoola]

1 hour ago, Choirfarm3 said:

It's not that. It is having relationships with people who are generations older than we are. It can be a neighbor or church member. But I think society lacks something without intergenerational relationships.

I have no worries for babies and toddlers who are in stable homes.

My older kids have had much contact with anyone besides me and my DH as little kids. Due to circumstance like moves.  We often knew no one for months.  It was much harder on the adults than the baby/toddlers

The current little one had tons of honorary aunties and grandparents here.  We saw them at least weekly.  I would say it was more like she tolerated their attention and affection.  You might get smiles if you played with her while her dad held her.  She did fine in nursery but I wouldn't say she liked it.  She is perfectly content to stay home with her people.  She happily wave to everyone we see on our walks.    

 

 

[MercyA]

20 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I only need to interact with a small fraction of humanity day to day, and an even smaller fraction will become true friends. And yes, I feel judgmental about people who aren't doing their part to take care of other people. No, I'm not going to shun them, but yes, I'm going to factor in their behavior during the pandemic when I choose my friends. 

I don't disagree with you at all. The problem for me is that I live in a rural small town. We have friends from co-op and friends from church. Out of all of those friends, only ONE has taken covid seriously (probably not coincidentally, she is an NP, and she also lives outside our area). So what can I do? Frankly I'd be perfectly happy to hole up with DH, but my DD needs a social life. It's going to be hard.  

Edited December 28, 2020 by MercyA

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I don't disagree with you at all. The problem for me is that I live in a rural small town. We have friends from co-op and friends from church. Out of all of those friends, ONLY one has taken covid seriously (probably not coincidentally, she is an NP, and she also lives outside our area). So what can I do? Frankly I'd be perfectly happy to hole up with DH, but my DD needs a social life. It's going to be hard.  

Yeah, I’m honestly going to be hard-pressed, too. I live in NYC, but the homeschooling community is still not huge, and a sizable fraction are anti-vaxxers... and one of the ones who I know vaccinates is my “COVID IS THE FLU!!” ex-friend...

[Frances]

2 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

You do realize that most of us, even conservatives who are Christians, do not believe or follow any of these so-called Christian leaders.  I don't even know who these so-called leaders are supposed to be,  I haven't been to any church ever that blamed everything or anything on gays.  The churches I have ever attended do wear masks and limit large gatherings.    The churches many of us attend, some, like me, now virtually, do encourage mask wearing and limiting gatherings.  

There are plenty of Christian leaders who speak out strongly against gays and gay marriage and even plenty of conservative Christians on this very board. Not to mention the churches who rallied believers to work against gay marriage amendments in various states before the Supreme Court decision. And these leaders would not have mega churches, seminaries, colleges, etc, if they did not have substantial followings.

When Bill spoke out against John MacArthur defying CA mandates at his mega church, several boardies rushed to his defense and said how offensive it was too many on this board and what an amazing, theologically sound speaking to truth leader he was who had founded a college, seminary, and churches. Others urged us to listen to him before judging him, so I did. I went and listened to a radio interview he did defending defying the mandates. He talked more about politics, Trump, and gays than he did the virus. 

Also, many on this board have reported that their churches are not following mandates. There have also been protests and lawsuits by churches all over the country against the mandates, including in my state. And in my state that’s despite the fact that they get special treatment compared to other gatherings.

So while I’m glad you don’t attend such a church, they do exist and are represented on this board and throughout the country.

 

 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Just curious how you know the details of what these churches are teaching about everything, if you don't attend there?
 

I think it's fairly common knowledge that there is a continuum of how churches (and other faiths' gathering places) are responding to the pandemic, from completely shutting their doors to online / SD to trying not to change a thing. 

I don't know that this corresponds to the continuum of how churches teach about other things.  I think it's more likely that the continuum comment applies to both spiritually liberal and conservative churches.  But I don't know for sure, because I haven't done detailed research to match these up.  I think just knowing that there is this one church you know of that preaches against homosexuality AND doesn't require masks means that's how *that church* is doing it.  You wouldn't have attended that church anyway, pandemic or no, right?

This might be a good time for Christians (and people of other faiths) to explore other spiritual options, but blaming one church's actions for dumping the whole thing is childish.  I mean I did that when I was 15 - I didn't like the way our pastor responded to a sincere question I asked, so I dropped out all together.  But I was 15.  That was not a rational or grown-up decision.

I don’t care about the details of what a church is teaching about every single thing, only about the things they then use to influence politics and the rights of others outside of their church. And I know because many church leaders have come out against the mandates both in my state and throughout the country and there have been reports and videos from their churches and also plenty of sermons, interviews, videos of church leaders. It’s not very tough to know both what various Christian leaders preach and say about gays and what they are doing in their churches during the pandemic if one is interested. John MacArthur is a prime example, already discussed on this board during the pandemic. You may not care because maybe you don’t care about gay rights, but I do. 
 

It doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not I would attend a particular church. It has to do with the toxic mix of conservative Christianity and politics in the US and the power and influence some Christian leaders and churches have used to attempt to restrict the rights of others. Again, it may not be something you care about and that’s your right. But I do care.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Frances

[annandatje]

Original poster, could you set up another facebook account to use solely for the DDPY group you mentioned?   Another idea would be to snooze all friends for 30 days or simply unfriend everyone, so you do not see the frustrating posts.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Amy Gen said:

I read the description as a bit of a stereotype. I don’t know any people like that, and if I did, they sure wouldn’t be on my FB feed. 
 

My Dh records our church service on zoom so that people can attend without risk. The 5 people in the church for the recording are masked the entire time. 
 

My priest was not born in the US. He cares works tirelessly for people of color in our denomination. He also refuses to pastor any church where his gay son is not welcome. 
 

These are the Christians I know. I’ve never seen the kind that hate gays and only care for the unborn. That is really saying something because I’m from Texas. 

You don’t have to hate gays to believe in and work for them not having the same rights as heterosexuals. Many would claim they love gays but don’t want gay marriage or gays to have protections when it comes to housing, employment, etc.

And I wasn’t saying they only care for the unborn, just that their pro-life views often don’t extend to things outside of abortion such as universal healthcare, the death penalty, following mandates and public health guidelines during the pandemic, etc. Thus, fake pro-life views when it’s really just anti-abortion (and probably a few specific other things).

Edited December 28, 2020 by Frances

[Spryte]

*please don’t quote*

Hesitating to jump in because I and my children have been touched, no ... shattered is a better word, by suicide i the not so distant past.  And the fear of it is in our present, now, and probably will be for years to come. There is still active grieving.  And we have dealt with family who have suicidal ideation often.  My kids should never have had to know about this issue at the ages they did, honestly.  So I come to suicide discussions with baggage, and please don’t flame me, because like I said - we are still grieving and processing.  But I need to get this out, having seen this mental health and the pandemic-is-causing-suicide talk over and over.  Frankly, I don’t buy it, not completely.  The pandemic has made it harder to get help, harder to meet the needs of people who need help - yes.  But someone who is so very far into suicidal ideation that they will commit suicide over the person behind them in line to get chicken not speaking to them?  No.  I don’t buy that.  There are other forces at work, and other issues, and it is not about masking or being unable to see someone’s teeth when they smile, as opposed to reading body language and eyes to know that the other person is being friendly.  Suicide has many reasons, I’m sure masking doesn’t help, but I think it’s an unlikely direct cause of suicide. And I find it doubtful that a friendly but meaningless small talk conversation at the chicken counter was going to save a life.  Maybe, as a very rare occurrence, but very rare.

Speaking as a person who has multiple people who’ve had suicidal ideation recently in her life, and has lost three important people in the last 18 mos to suicide, I think if we are all deeply caring about that issue, we’d be better off addressing things like LGBTQ issues, and seeing that people have equal access to housing and work, and the benefits of marriage, opportunities to adopt, and the acceptance of their communities. There absolutely IS a huge wave of suicides happening among youth, but it’s not new, it’s not caused by the pandemic.  LGBTQ youth are terribly, terribly at risk.

And that’s just one issue, I brought that one up because it’s been mentioned in this thread, and it impacts my family directly, and the mental health of someone I love and don’t want to lose.  I could list more issues deserving of attention, that would absolutely help to curb suicides, and none would require the potential spread of a contagious disease that can bankrupt families and cause months of misery (I worry about those things almost more than the small chance of death).

Frankly, it feels like people are using “suicide” as a club with which to clear the way to do what/when they’d like.  Contact sports?  Sure!  The kids need it!  Parties?  Yep, it’s mental health.  Not masking so strangers can see my face?  And it goes on and on. ...some things really are necessary.  But some things I’m seeing justified by “but mental health! Suicide!” are not.

And speaking from grief - it really sucks to hear people using suicide that way.  And I wonder how much some of those people know personally about what it feels like to lose a loved one that way, and to do the work to process it, because I think their words might be different, maybe, and their actions certainly would be ... because if you’re going to seek to prevent suicide by going out and about *socially* during a pandemic, I sure hope you are doing the multitude of other things that also might prevent suicides.  Otherwise, it really looks, to those of us affected, like it’s only an excuse being used to get something one wants.

 

*please don’t quote, I shared something personal and may choose to delete*

[MEmama]

Thank you for sharing, Spryte.

((hugs))

[AmandaVT]

@Spryte - I agree 100% 💜

[Annie G]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

IMO the decision should rest with the most vulnerable person. And their wishes should be respected. In my world that's my DH. If his family members were making even the most basic efforts--like masking most of the time and avoiding large crowds and not eating in restaurants--then he'd be okay seeing them. But they aren't. In fact, they recently attended a large wedding, including spending several hours at a packed reception. They eat out several times a week. And those are their choices. But they should respect DH's choice to not see them, not continually pester and harangue him (us) about it. He's every bit as much, perhaps more, concerned about his oncologist and his staff as he is about himself. How would we feel if we unknowingly exposed them, and as a result many patients couldn't get care for a few weeks? We've got our issues, but being selfish and self centered aren't among them.

 

My 88 year old dad is definitely the most vulnerable in my family of origin and while I generally agree w your 1st sentence, in his case I do not. He rarely masks, eats out often, never takes precautions like washing or sanitizing hands after being out. He wanted the family to gather at his house for a holiday meal a few days before Christmas. I didn’t feel comfortable, and was of course harassed that I wasn’t on board letting the old guy have the Christmas he wanted.  And then my nephew was exposed at work but chose not to get tested or quarantine, but COME TO MY DAD’S and play pool with him. The day after he was notified about the exposure. My sister reported that the young man didn’t sit at the table when they ate, but he wore no mask and stayed there several hours. My dad was thrilled. 
You guys are being careful and I’m so sorry people are being jerks about it.

[frogger]

I am very sorry Spryte. 

 

My personal experience with suicide is that mental health issues and alienation from others not physical circumstances is what pushes people to suicide. Not even prisoners are put in self isolation because mental health issues. 

We are not attending parties or going on with life as usual. We mask, we are careful and we get very angry at people who choose not to do their fair share because I believe no one should be forced into complete isolation . We did not celebrate holidays with my parents or his parents and we get very angry when people say that the vulnerable should just isolate because I firmly believe that isolation is unhealthy and there will be mental health trade offs with every choice we make. Trade offs are part of life and it sucks but it is a cold hard fact. 

 

What I don't understand is why speaking to someone is criminal when you are standing back waiting (rather than crowding them) and wearing a mask. I feel like that isn't a good sign for society.