facebook is FULL of people posting get togethers, group meals, group selfies

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, frogger said:

What I don't understand is why speaking to someone is criminal when you are standing back waiting (rather than crowding them) and wearing a mask. I feel like that isn't a good sign for society. 

Because you want to release as few aerosols and droplets as possible, basically. I understand it’s a trade-off, but I personally wouldn’t chat with someone inside a store. Distanced while outside, masked — probably, but I’d need more like 10 feet.

[Spryte]

5 minutes ago, frogger said:

I am very sorry Spryte. 

 

My personal experience with suicide is that mental health issues and alienation from others not physical circumstances is what pushes people to suicide. Not even prisoners are put in self isolation because mental health issues. 

We are not attending parties or going on with life as usual. We mask, we are careful and we get very angry at people who choose not to do their fair share because I believe no one should be forced into complete isolation . We did not celebrate holidays with my parents or his parents and we get very angry when people say that the vulnerable should just isolate because I firmly believe that isolation is unhealthy and there will be mental health trade offs with every choice we make. Trade offs are part of life and it sucks but it is a cold hard fact. 

 

What I don't understand is why speaking to someone is criminal when you are standing back waiting (rather than crowding them) and wearing a mask. I feel like that isn't a good sign for society. 

 

Is it criminal to speak to someone while 6 ft away, waiting in line at the grocery store?  I hadn’t heard that.  It seems extreme.  What state is this?

[mathnerd]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Because you want to release as few aerosols and droplets as possible, basically. I understand it’s a trade-off, but I personally wouldn’t chat with someone inside a store. Distanced while outside, masked — probably, but I’d need more like 10 feet.

This is correct. We want to limit any possibility of aerosols released into a closed space as possible in order to not be a contributor to spreading the disease in a pandemic. So, smile (they can see it in your eyes), wave, nod, use sign language (i use a thumbs up if the checkout guy asks if I want a paper bag) and leave the closed space as quickly as you can. If you want to talk, it is best to do it outside with more than 10 ft distance if possible.

[Spryte]

5 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Is it criminal to speak to someone while 6 ft away, waiting in line at the grocery store?  I hadn’t heard that.  It seems extreme.  What state is this?

ETA:  oops, strange quoting going on.  I wanted to say also that I agreed with your post, @frogger

Edited December 28, 2020 by Spryte

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, mathnerd said:

This is correct. We want to limit any possibility of aerosols released into a closed space as possible in order to not be a contributor to spreading the disease in a pandemic. So, smile (they can see it in your eyes), wave, nod, use sign language (i use a thumbs up if the checkout guy asks if I want a paper bag) and leave the closed space as quickly as you can. If you want to talk, it is best to do it outside with more than 10 ft distance if possible.

Yeah, exactly. I’m basically on high alert in all enclosed spaces. We don’t go into stores normally as is, and when we have to go inside, we definitely don’t chat.

It’s not my favorite way to live, but thankfully, we’ve arranged things so family members aren’t isolated. And there’s definitely a light at  the end of the tunnel.

[frogger]

Just now, Spryte said:

Is it criminal to speak to someone while 6 ft away, waiting in line at the grocery store?  I hadn’t heard that.  It seems extreme.  What state is this?

No, that was what I got in trouble for earlier in the thread but you saw things half way through.

 

I understand your frustration though. I shouldn't have said it but I do see people teetering on the edge. I also see people who suddenly care about schools, suicides and what not who didn't care before and use it as an excuse. It makes me angry too that suddenly now they care but really they are just using topics that didn't care about before as means to their own ends.

 

The person I was responding to thought that telling people their circumstances weren't so bad would help or something. I don't know. Sigh. I think I'm best off not focusing on locals and staying away from WTM. 

[Spryte]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, exactly. I’m basically on high alert in all enclosed spaces. We don’t go into stores normally as is, and when we have to go inside, we definitely don’t chat.

It’s not my favorite way to live, but thankfully, we’ve arranged things so family members aren’t isolated. And there’s definitely a light at  the end of the tunnel.

We don’t chat indoors, either.  When we must go out (which is not often), we will chat briefly outside, masked and distanced.

Definitely not a preference, but it’s temporary, and we can do it temporarily, if it helps with slowing or stopping the spread till the vaccines are more widely available.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Spryte said:

We don’t chat indoors, either.  When we must go out (which is not often), we will chat briefly outside, masked and distanced.

Definitely not a preference, but it’s temporary, and we can do it temporarily, if it helps with slowing or stopping the spread till the vaccines are more widely available.

Yeah, we’ve chatted with my in-laws’ neighbors from our respective front steps, lol. Also with a few people walking by walking their dogs.

I do feel nervous about basically ALL interactions, though. Like, we chat with the neighbors, but the other neighbors recently actually DID have COVID. So it’s a really good thing no one did any interacting at short distances...

[TAFKAPastry]

17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Because you want to release as few aerosols and droplets as possible, basically. I understand it’s a trade-off, but I personally wouldn’t chat with someone inside a store. Distanced while outside, masked — probably, but I’d need more like 10 feet.

I’m sorry, but this is bordering on absurd. And letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you’re making people mask. And stay home. And stand far apart. But we still won’t allow verbal communication and will look down our noses at those who actually try for any?  The problem is ceasing to be the virus.

Aaaaand this is reminding me why I stopped posting here. SMH.

Edited December 28, 2020 by TAFKAPastry

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, TAFKAPastry said:

I’m sorry, but this is stupid. And letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you’re making people mask. And stay home. And stand far apart. But we still won’t allow verbal communication and will look down our noses at those who actually try for any?  The problem is ceasing to be the virus.

Aaaaand this is reminding me why I stopped posting here. SMH.

I’m not MAKING anyone do anything, obviously. Everyone has their own risk tolerance. Personally, I’d save my chatting for outside, because of how the virus spreads.

[Spryte]

5 minutes ago, frogger said:

No, that was what I got in trouble for earlier in the thread but you saw things half way through.

 

I understand your frustration though. I shouldn't have said it but I do see people teetering on the edge. I also see people who suddenly care about schools, suicides and what not who didn't care before and use it as an excuse. It makes me angry too that suddenly now they care but really they are just using topics that didn't care about before as means to their own ends.

 

The person I was responding to thought that telling people their circumstances weren't so bad would help or something. I don't know. Sigh. I think I'm best off not focusing on locals and staying away from WTM. 

Oh, thanks for explaining that.  I missed some of it, and for a moment there thought there was actually a law against indoor chat somewhere.  Aack.

... and you were the person who made the comment about the chicken counter?   I apologize for using your comment as an example.  I didn’t actually think you meant it literally, but more figuratively.  I used it as a jumping off point, and probably should have used something else (there are sooo many examples these days!).  I can delete it, and this, after you see it.
 

I probably shouldn’t have posted, but I am feeling very sad and triggered by all the people who suddenly seem to deeply care about suicide and mental health, now, when there is some benefit to them, when they never mentioned it, talked about it, or seemed to care before.   There are so, so many components that go into a suicide decision, and to only actively work toward the preventing the one that appears to align with what one wants ... it feels self-serving and insincere.
 

 

[J-rap]

22 hours ago, regentrude said:

I am sure you recognize the immense privilege of a situation where all of these people either work remote or don't have to work at all.
 

This is such a good point.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, J-rap said:

This is such a good point.

But what can I DO with this good point? It's absolutely true that I'm privileged. And then what? The best I can do is to stay home myself. I can't even convince other people of what the risky activities are. 

[J-rap]

22 hours ago, regentrude said:

That is only possible if they are in sufficient possession of their mental faculties to understand what is going on.
Can you imagine an old person who may not understand about the pandemic, lying there week after week, waiting and wondering why he has been forsaken by his family? Breaks my heart.

This unfortunately is so true...  it was our situation with my mother.  After not being able to see ANYONE in our family for nearly 5 months, we were finally allowed to see her outside, with 6 feet between us, with masks and visors on.  I do understand.  But it's been very difficult.  She'd reach out to hold our hands, and couldn't understand why we didn't get closer to her and grasp onto them.  She doesn't understand the pandemic.  She didn't understand why my dad had to climb a ladder and look at her through her window to see her, and she doesn't understand why we children only wave and blow kisses at her through her window now.  At least my dad can now sit with her every afternoon (as the designated "essential caregiver").  They both love that so much.  So yeah, we all definitely understand that it just is what it is, but it's heartbreaking.  

[frogger]

11 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Oh, thanks for explaining that.  I missed some of it, and for a moment there thought there was actually a law against indoor chat somewhere.  Aack.

... and you were the person who made the comment about the chicken counter?   I apologize for using your comment as an example.  I didn’t actually think you meant it literally, but more figuratively.  I used it as a jumping off point, and probably should have used something else (there are sooo many examples these days!).  I can delete it, and this, after you see it.
 

I probably shouldn’t have posted, but I am feeling very sad and triggered by all the people who suddenly seem to deeply care about suicide and mental health, now, when there is some benefit to them, when they never mentioned it, talked about it, or seemed to care before.   There are so, so many components that go into a suicide decision, and to only actively work toward the preventing the one that appears to align with what one wants ... it feels self-serving and insincere.
 

 

Don't worry about it, I understand. There is a lot of suffering right now and tensions right now.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by frogger

[J-rap]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But what can I DO with this good point? It's absolutely true that I'm privileged. And then what? The best I can do is to stay home myself. I can't even convince other people of what the risky activities are. 

Yeah, I agree...  Our family is mostly in that privileged situation too.  (With the exception of my mother.)  I guess how that knowledge helps me is by understanding that what feels hard for me is even more of a sacrifice for others.  That's all.  

[Spryte]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

But what can I DO with this good point? It's absolutely true that I'm privileged. And then what? The best I can do is to stay home myself. I can't even convince other people of what the risky activities are. 

I have thought a lot about this, and I have come to view my family’s ability to stay home as a gift I can give to those who can’t.  

Our next door neighbors - both sides - cannot stay home.  Two of them work with Covid patients, and come home to their families every day.  They do what they have to do, and stay home as much as they can.  They pulled three of their kids from in person school and do virtual, and one kid is special needs and can’t miss what she gets at school.  So they send her, while the others stay home.  We are friends, we talk a lot, and they are grateful that those of us who can stay home do.  They, like I do, also understand that not everyone can.  But those of us who can and do make it easier on people like my friends, who are treating Covid patients, because maybe we are contributing to a lower number of patients.

 

Eh.  That’s the best I have.  The whole thing just stinks, really.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

I don’t care about the details of what a church is teaching about every single thing, only about the things they then use to influence politics and the rights of others outside of their church. And I know because many church leaders have come out against the mandates both in my state and throughout the country and there have been reports and videos from their churches and also plenty of sermons, interviews, videos of church leaders. It’s not very tough to know both what various Christian leaders preach and say about gays and what they are doing in their churches during the pandemic if one is interested. John MacArthur is a prime example, already discussed on this board during the pandemic. You may not care because maybe you don’t care about gay rights, but I do. 
 

It doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not I would attend a particular church. It has to do with the toxic mix of conservative Christianity and politics in the US and the power and influence some Christian leaders and churches have used to attempt to restrict the rights of others. Again, it may not be something you care about and that’s your right. But I do care.

Well I don't understand - if you are concerned about your own right or ability to worship in a church that masks and doesn't hate gays, then I am sure you can find such a church.  AFAIK nothing is preventing your preferred churches from deciding to SD.  If you are upset that other people have the right to attend a church that disagrees with your views, then I think you are out of luck there.  But that is off the topic of this thread, I think.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well I don't understand - if you are concerned about your own right or ability to worship in a church that masks and doesn't hate gays, then I am sure you can find such a church.  AFAIK nothing is preventing your preferred churches from deciding to SD.  If you are upset that other people have the right to attend a church that disagrees with your views, then I think you are out of luck there.  But that is off the topic of this thread, I think.

Anyone can attend any church they want to attend. Any church can teach or practice whatever they want to. But I also have the right to call them out for being inconsistent, hypocritical, and immoral, no?

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I have thought a lot about this, and I have come to view my family’s ability to stay home as a gift I can give to those who can’t.  

Yeah, that's how I feel about it, too. It's basically the best I can do in this pandemic. That, and donate money. It sucks, but there it is. 

[SKL]

23 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But what can I DO with this good point? It's absolutely true that I'm privileged. And then what? The best I can do is to stay home myself. I can't even convince other people of what the risky activities are. 

I think the point of recognizing this privilege is to fight the temptation to judge others who may or may not have comparable privilege.  Especially not based on a snippet of their lives, such as a photo posted on facebook.  Would you (general you) even know if the individuals only took off their masks momentarily for the photos (because many of us don't consider life in a mask as a fond memory)?  Would you know of the dozen other reasons why some people aren't wearing masks?  Would you know if someone in the group was terminally ill and living out their last wish?  Or if those individuals had isolated for weeks in order to make this moment safe?  Or if they have already had Covid?

And more generally, why do people want to be so judgmental about these things that they aren't in a position to judge and that don't actually concern them?  Does it make people feel superior?  I feel like there is a sort of "mean girls club" forming around this issue.  Is this making the world a better place?

I'm seeing a lot of "well I'd like to do that too, but I can't."  Instead I think "I am blessed to have reasonable choices that keep us reasonably safe" would be more appropriate right now.  If you are not terminally ill, you can go travel or whatever after the pandemic subsides, so what is there to be angry about?

What I see IRL is people who have to make the difficult decision of whether to go to work or be around their dependent kids/parents after possibly being exposed.  It's not a no-brainer for most people.  They have long since used up their "risk budget," and there's nothing they can do about it.  So yeah, they are probably going to view things differently than those who still have options.

[MercyA]

@Frances, your criticism of the inconsistency of those who call themselves pro-life is absolutely fair. I share your concerns and am angry and frustrated with the lack of concern being shown for others during this pandemic. However, I want to echo previous posters who've asked that you please don't paint us with too broad a brush. 

My church leadership has been absolutely foolish, uninformed, reckless, and negligent in the way they have handled this pandemic. I hate it and it's caused me no end of grief.

That said, we have consistently shown over the years that we do care about born people as well as the unborn. There is a hotel in a nearby town which houses the homeless (the city has no shelter). The hotel is also known as a meeting place for drug dealers and prostitutes. Our little rural church prepared hundreds of meals for the residents there and delivered them for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Last Thanksgiving, we sent vans and brought residents to our church to be served dinner. When we heard the homeless living at the hotel would benefit from Crockpots, electric skillets, toaster ovens and silverware, you should have seen how many donations were given!

Before the pandemic, we sent vans to trailer parks every Wednesday night during the school year, picked up kids, and brought them to the church for a full, healthy meal, games, singing, and teaching. We've taken pizza to the trailer park a few times this year to try to help a little.

Behind the scenes, we help people with utility bills and appliances and gas money, both regular attenders and strangers who show up. We support our local food pantry with money and donations, as well as give gifts to Project Angel Tree families.

I've never heard the leadership blame gay people for anything or speak in church about politics related to gay marriage. They have never endorsed any political candidate. We do not hate gay people, period.

I personally would not protest or vote against gay marriage or protections for gay people under the law. I do believe church members should live according to Scripture, and I believe the New Testament is clear on those issues. What people outside our church do is not for me to judge; I leave that to God (1 Corinthians 5).

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

And more generally, why do people want to be so judgmental about these things that they aren't in a position to judge and that don't actually concern them?  Does it make people feel superior?  I feel like there is a sort of "mean girls club" forming around this issue.  Is this making the world a better place?

Well, I'm personally terrified that either I or someone close to me will get sick. Every time someone does something unnecessary like this, the chance that this happens goes up. So, yes, I don't feel very good about people making this kind of decision. I'm sure it's POSSIBLE that the picture is a misrepresentation of their otherwise extremely careful life, in which case I retract any and all judgment. However, that's not really what this thread is talking about. 

 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

If you are not terminally ill, you can go travel or whatever after the pandemic subsides, so what is there to be angry about?

I'm not terminally ill, but this pandemic is absolutely robbing my in-laws of a sizable fraction of their remaining active life, since they are in their mid-70s. It also robbed my kids of their friendships. Yeah, we can manage, but it doesn't mean that I have to be HAPPY about the fact that the choices other people make put us in more danger. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Garga]

My birthday is on Wednesday. I have a group of friends and we usually get together on each other’s birthdays and go out to eat.

Last night they surprised me and showed up at my door and serenaded me with Happy Birthday and gave me some presents.  It was unexpected and sweet.  And then we stood outside in the 30 degree weather chit-chatting for about 45 minutes.

Even though we were outside, I put on my mask (helps with the cold nose as well as with germs!) and so did one other lady.  The other 4 didn’t and they were edging kinda close together. It’s just sort of natural to edge close, I suppose, though I was very careful to keep edging away.  🙂

Well, lo and behold the only other lady who was masking last night found out this morning she has covid. She had a sore throat and works in the office of a medical facility and so was given a rapid test and got results right away.

So, she was contagious the entire time we were standing around. I am SO GLAD she masked.  Earlier this year, she’d indicated that she wouldn’t mask, and all this week she’s been visiting indoors without masks with out of town guests, but she decided to wear the mask last night.  I’m not sure what prompted her to...maybe because I’m the only one in the group who is a stickler for masking and social distancing? And she was respecting that? I’m just glad she did.

I’ve given up a lot of things this year, as have many of us, and seeing the group last night was really nice. I was surprised they were all willing to indulge me and stand out in the cold for 45 minutes, even though they think I’ve bought into the “lies” about covid.

But gee whiz. Why did someone in that group have to turn out to have covid? It’s like I finally get one nice interaction and everyone was pleasant and the next day one of us has covid.  Covid just messes up everything.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Garga

[Not_a_Number]

23 minutes ago, Garga said:

But gee whiz. Why did someone in that group have to turn out to have covid? It’s like I finally get one nice interaction and everyone was pleasant and the next day one of us has covid.  Covid just messes up everything.

Oh, how frustrating 😞. I hope no one else in the group gets sick. 

[frogger]

19 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

Because in my community, they do not stand back. If the little old lady sees me from church, then she pulls down her mask ( if she has one) and comes within a feet or two.  People who wear a mask, including the Walmart employees hardly ever cover their noses.  If I wave and make any kind of gesture, they will come very close to me.   Does that make sense?

Yes, it does make sense. Many older people really don't seem to understand masks. I find people are getting better at it but the most most basic things like not touching it, not reusing a disposable over and over for months, having it fit over mouth and nose properly. I still try  to be friendly or helpful to them if they are struggling.

 

And if someone appears to be being extra cautious I give a very wide berth and don't say anything. 😊 But most people just appear to be thankful they aren't in trouble from me. Many elderly are confused and bewildered by everything.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I don't think it is necessary at all.  I think this is pie in the sky type of thinking.  I mean, it isn't just modern life--- lots of people throughout the centuries didn't have access to grandparents due to wars, moves, illnesses, etc.  I know that my mother and father never even mentioned having grand parents in the picture- I have no idea if they had been alive or not or if they just didn't see them much.  My mother grew up in aristocracy and didn\t even see her parents much- as a young child, she saw her mother when she was sick.  First nannies and then governesses took care of her and her siblings (and taught them too).I expect she may have been eating with them at some age before she was captured by the Soviets and sent to the gulag, but definitely not in early childhood and probably not until about 10 at least.

My children did fine and so did I.  And so did a lot of kids whose grandparents were all dead or continents away or far enough away or kids who don't have cousins, etc.  

Just because people have managed without extended family doesn’t mean it isn’t better to have it if you can. 

[mathnerd]

3 hours ago, TAFKAPastry said:

But we still won’t allow verbal communication and will look down our noses at those who actually try for any?

Nobody can disallow verbal communication with another person. People like me who do not chit chat with others during a pandemic in a closed space choose to do so voluntarily due to our extreme consideration for the welfare of our society. You may choose to do as you please. Does that make it clear?

[mom2scouts]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

 

I'm seeing a lot of "well I'd like to do that too, but I can't."  Instead I think "I am blessed to have reasonable choices that keep us reasonably safe" would be more appropriate right now.  If you are not terminally ill, you can go travel or whatever after the pandemic subsides, so what is there to be angry about?

 

This isn't just about missed vacations! Other people's choices make it more dangerous for all of us and especially for the vulnerable. I can NEVER get back the first year of my first grandchild's life. I can NEVER have the Easter or Thanksgiving or Christmas that will probably be the last one where my elderly father will remember me if he even lives long enough to enjoy another one.

I keep seeing people saying, "If you're scared, just stay home. I'm going to live my life." The people who live in nursing homes ARE staying home, but if their caregivers are going to restaurants and getting together in groups, there is more risk. If I or my family members have to go to the doctor or the hospital, the people just "living their lives" are putting me and my family at risk.  Other people are getting the benefits of those who are sacrificing and the people sacrificing are being harmed.

[frogger]

34 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

See that isn't my situation. And I'm trying to sort out my own feelings and trying to figure out how jealousy works into the situation.  I'm not singing in choir or attending the women's ministry events, but they are still happening.  Singing is dangerous. I just don't know how to feel about that. And how do I rejoin the choir when it is all over. I'm head of the music committee. I sent articles and recommendations from the CMDA. But they still had socially distanced choir with no masks. People in our congregation don't mask even though the pastor does and encourages them to.  So, how does that work with your "I'd like to do that, but I can't."  I am so incredibly lonely and missing all my activities and they are all going on without me. And so far, no outbreaks from the activities. These are not the type of difficult decisions you talk about.  They are want to's, not have to's.  I'm just really struggling.

((((Hugs))))

I understand this. I think it is also hard to integrate back in when you have been separated so long and I would understand being jealous too because quite frankly it's not fair. 

 

I also know it complicates life. I also know a lot of people are going to hate me by the time we are through with this. My in laws who think everyone should just go about life as normal for one. They complained about not being able to see Grandma in one breath while saying everyone should act normal and the scared and vulnerable should just self isolate if that's what they want in the next breath. I had to just close my mouth because the woman had just lost her mother. Now they want my son to visit but go to restaurants all the time and such. I support restaurants too but I get take out. 😕 Family, church, friends it will be hard when some many feel betrayed and left out etc. 

 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, mom2scouts said:

If I or my family members have to go to the doctor or the hospital, the people just "living their lives" are putting me and my family at risk. 

Exactly. I've already put off more medical stuff than I'm frankly comfortable with, and I have no idea if I'll pay for it later. But that's the trade I made -- if I'm going to pod with my in-laws, then I am NOT going into any indoor spaces, and I will quarantine for 2 weeks after appointments. And I felt like I needed to form this pod for the sake of my children... 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

@Frances, your criticism of the inconsistency of those who call themselves pro-life is absolutely fair. I share your concerns and am angry and frustrated with the lack of concern being shown for others during this pandemic. However, I want to echo previous posters who've asked that you please don't paint us with too broad a brush. 

My church leadership has been absolutely foolish, uninformed, reckless, and negligent in the way they have handled this pandemic. I hate it and it's caused me no end of grief.

That said, we have consistently shown over the years that we do care about born people as well as the unborn. There is a hotel in a nearby town which houses the homeless (the city has no shelter). The hotel is also known as a meeting place for drug dealers and prostitutes. Our little rural church prepared hundreds of meals for the residents there and delivered them for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Last Thanksgiving, we sent vans and brought residents to our church to be served dinner. When we heard the homeless living at the hotel would benefit from Crockpots, electric skillets, toaster ovens and silverware, you should have seen how many donations were given!

Before the pandemic, we sent vans to trailer parks every Wednesday night during the school year, picked up kids, and brought them to the church for a full, healthy meal, games, singing, and teaching. We've taken pizza to the trailer park a few times this year to try to help a little.

Behind the scenes, we help people with utility bills and appliances and gas money, both regular attenders and strangers who show up. We support our local food pantry with money and donations, as well as give gifts to Project Angel Tree families.

I've never heard the leadership blame gay people for anything or speak in church about politics related to gay marriage. They have never endorsed any political candidate. We do not hate gay people, period.

I personally would not protest or vote against gay marriage or protections for gay people under the law. I do believe church members should live according to Scripture, and I believe the New Testament is clear on those issues. What people outside our church do is not for me to judge; I leave that to God (1 Corinthians 5).

I do know and acknowledge there is a wide range of beliefs and behaviors within conservative Christian churches. And I know you personally, Mercy, as someone who is consistent in her pro-life beliefs, and I very much admire that. However, and I hope this doesn’t come across wrong, but as someone who was an active leader in homeless outreach at my church for many years, the things you describe your church doing are relatively easy to do and do not involve real self sacrifice. In fact, it can even be fun to work together with fellow believers to help others, at least in my experience. Sure, it’s painful to see how much suffering some others are enduring, but trying to alleviate that in even small ways can be rewarding.

On the other hand, the pandemic is forcing everyone to be asked to make real, tangible personal sacrifices, some far more than others. And as you describe your own church, many are not willing to truly sacrifice for others. They are putting their own selfish desires before the lives and health of others. So while I applaud your church for its homeless outreach efforts, I don’t see that as making up for pandemic behavior that puts others at risk.

As for the gay part, I’ll just say again it’s not about whether or not anyone hates gays. It’s about believing they have the same rights as others in our secular country. I have absolutely no issue with churches not marrying gays or not hiring gays to teach in their schools or lead their congregation, etc. because it goes against their beliefs and teachings. I’m only concerned when churches and church leaders want those same beliefs to be used outside of churches to deny marriage, employment, housing, public accommodations, etc. and they use their power and influence to affect policy and laws that lead to discrimination.

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, kand said:

This isn’t the right thread for this, and maybe we should have one in one of the social clubs, but because I know you’re a thoughtful person who does consider other perspectives carefully, I think this would be a good discussion to pursue at some point. There are a lot of gay people who are not “outside your church” as you say, or at least who didn’t wish to be until they were told or made to feel unwelcome. I’ve said it over and over, but the Christian church is going to lose the next generation entirely over this issue if they can’t get their head around it. It doesn’t have to be that way, though. 

Thank you for your kind words.

I have thought about this issue quite a bit and probably understand it better than you know. That said, my position will change when Scripture changes. I am more concerned about faithful, accurate teaching of the Word of God than I am about potentially losing people over refusing to misrepresent Scripture.  

I have heard and read in great detail people's opinions as to why the New Testament Scriptures regarding this issue no longer apply or don't mean what they say. You don't need to worry that it just hasn't been explained to me properly yet. 🙂 

I don't believe I'm cherry picking or inconsistent: I also believe that women shouldn't teach or have authority over men in the church; that women should cover their heads during worship; and that my husband is the head of our household. Again, I'll change my beliefs on those issues when Scripture changes. 

Now, if anyone chooses to overemphasize this one issue and ignore Scripture on divorce, or caring for the poor, or peace, or even gossip, I will and do have a problem with that. 

No one would be made to feel unwelcome at our church. Just as one example, we have a long-attending, co-habitating, unmarried couple, and as far as I know, no one has been unkind to them. They know their behavior does not line up with the teachings of our church; they choose to attend anyway and not become members. 

Thanks for your thoughts, kand.

[MercyA]

19 minutes ago, Frances said:

I do know and acknowledge there is a wide range of beliefs and behaviors within conservative Christian churches. And I know you personally, Mercy, as someone who is consistent in her pro-life beliefs, and I very much admire that. However, and I hope this doesn’t come across wrong, but as someone who was an active leader in homeless outreach at my church for many years, the things you describe your church doing are relatively easy to do and do not involve real self sacrifice. In fact, it can even be fun to work together with fellow believers to help others, at least in my experience. Sure, it’s painful to see how much suffering some others are enduring, but trying to alleviate that in even small ways can be rewarding.

On the other hand, the pandemic is forcing everyone to be asked to make real, tangible personal sacrifices, some far more than others. And as you describe your own church, many are not willing to truly sacrifice for others. They are putting their own selfish desires before the lives and health of others. So while I applaud your church for its homeless outreach efforts, I don’t see that as making up for pandemic behavior that puts others at risk.

As for the gay part, I’ll just say again it’s not about whether or not anyone hates gays. It’s about believing they have the same rights as others in our secular country. I have absolutely no issue with churches not marrying gays or not hiring gays to teach in their schools or lead their congregation, etc. because it goes against their beliefs and teachings. I’m only concerned when churches and church leaders want those same beliefs to be used outside of churches to deny marriage, employment, housing, public accommodations, etc. and they use their power and influence to affect policy and laws that lead to discrimination.

Thank you, Frances, for your kind words as well. 🙂 

The work that we do for the homeless is relatively easy. I know that, and I am not offended. My husband did tutoring for several years at a homeless shelter, and I understand how deep and complicated and hard it is to do all that actually needs to be and should be done.

However, we are a small rural church and the vast majority of our members are poor themselves. It is in fact a financial sacrifice (and a small sacrifice of time, as well) to do what we do.

As to the bolded in your post, I agree with you entirely. 😞 

I also find nothing to disagree with in your last paragraph. Part of the trouble is people not realizing or being willing to acknowledge that we ARE a secular country. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by MercyA

[SKL]

Well, facebook posts or not, we really are all pretty much in the same boat.  This Covid crap has been going on in the USA for nearly a year.  Most people spent some time being more or less careful.  Most of us have not caught the Rona, and those who have caught it and recovered are extremely unlikely to catch it again and spread it.  We've all made sacrifices.  I don't believe there's anyone who hasn't sacrificed at some level.  I don't see the point of blaming each other for it.  Do you really believe that if Joe Schmo down the street would just do xyz, the pandemic would have been over long ago?  Even in countries that have taken drastic measures compared to the USA, life is not "back to normal" and the pandemic is still present.

I don't go to church because I consider it risky for the elders who do go to our church.  That's my personal choice.  Nobody is stopping me.  It would be rather silly for me to be angry or jealous of those who choose to go to church, when it's purely my own choice keeping me away.  People who want to go should go!  The only thing that bugs me is when people get an attitude about me staying home.

On the other hand, I choose to participate with my kids in certain sports.  Nobody is forced to be there breathing our breath.  And IMO nobody has a right to be angry or jealous because we do this.  There are enough things we don't do.

But the elderly parent thing - I think we are all really in the same boat on that one.  We all have to be careful, whether it's by staying away from our parents or staying away from everyone else.  We all have to deal with the worry when our parents choose to take risks, for whatever reasons.  And I believe that's true whether people voice this or not.  A lot of times people talk big in order to hide their fears, especially over things they can't control.

So it doesn't make sense to me when someone says "I'm so angry because I'm afraid to visit my extended family now.  And because of this, I'm not going to choose to see extended family for the rest of my life."  Family and friends are precious - or what are we even talking about here?

[MercyA]

43 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well, facebook posts or not, we really are all pretty much in the same boat.  This Covid crap has been going on in the USA for nearly a year.  Most people spent some time being more or less careful.  Most of us have not caught the Rona, and those who have caught it and recovered are extremely unlikely to catch it again and spread it.  We've all made sacrifices.  I don't believe there's anyone who hasn't sacrificed at some level.  I don't see the point of blaming each other for it.  Do you really believe that if Joe Schmo down the street would just do xyz, the pandemic would have been over long ago?  Even in countries that have taken drastic measures compared to the USA, life is not "back to normal" and the pandemic is still present.

I don't go to church because I consider it risky for the elders who do go to our church.  That's my personal choice.  Nobody is stopping me.  It would be rather silly for me to be angry or jealous of those who choose to go to church, when it's purely my own choice keeping me away.  People who want to go should go!  The only thing that bugs me is when people get an attitude about me staying home.

On the other hand, I choose to participate with my kids in certain sports.  Nobody is forced to be there breathing our breath.  And IMO nobody has a right to be angry or jealous because we do this.  There are enough things we don't do.

But the elderly parent thing - I think we are all really in the same boat on that one.  We all have to be careful, whether it's by staying away from our parents or staying away from everyone else.  We all have to deal with the worry when our parents choose to take risks, for whatever reasons.  And I believe that's true whether people voice this or not.  A lot of times people talk big in order to hide their fears, especially over things they can't control.

So it doesn't make sense to me when someone says "I'm so angry because I'm afraid to visit my extended family now.  And because of this, I'm not going to choose to see extended family for the rest of my life."  Family and friends are precious - or what are we even talking about here?

People *think* they and others have been careful when they really haven't been. My best friend said to me, "Masks don't work--everyone is wearing them and the numbers just keep going up!" No, everyone is NOT wearing them. People are not wearing them when they sing at church, and kids are not wearing them at football practice, and families are not wearing them when they get together for the holidays. And out of the people who grudgingly wear them at Walmart, half of them have them under their noses! 

If *everyone* had done the right thing for 10 weeks or so when this all started, yes, it could have been controlled by now. 

We don't know how many people have caught it because so many people are asymptomatic. And people can and do catch it again after they've had it already.

People who want to go to optional indoor large gatherings should NOT go because they are contributing to deaths. They may literally kill someone. Probably not themselves. Maybe not someone they even know. But this type of behavior contributes to spread. I don't understand how people still don't get this. 

Nobody is forced to be at your kids' practices, but you have zero control where it spreads from there. 

And no, not everyone has sacrificed. Not enough and not meaningfully when this many people are dying. I know a lot of people who have just continued on with life as normal and still do! Because they want to do what they want, pure and simple. 

Where is the resilience and adaptability and lovingkindness to one's neighbors?

Edited December 29, 2020 by MercyA

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

People *think* they and others have been careful when they really haven't been. My best friend said to me, "Masks don't work--everyone is wearing them and the numbers just keep going up!" No, everyone is NOT wearing them. People are not wearing them when they sing at church, and kids are not wearing them at football practice, and families are not wearing them when they get together for the holidays. And out of the people who grudgingly wear them at Walmart, half of them have them under their noses! 

If *everyone* had done the right thing for 10 weeks or so when this all started, yes, it could have been controlled by now. 

We don't know how many people have caught it because so many people are asymptomatic. And people can and do catch it again after they've had it already.

People who want to go to optional indoor large gatherings should NOT go because they are contributing to deaths. They may literally kill someone. Probably not themselves. Maybe not someone they even know. But this type of behavior contributes to spread. I don't understand how people still don't get this. 

Nobody is forced to be at your kids' practices, but you have zero control where it spreads from there. 

And no, not everyone has sacrificed. Not enough and not meaningfully when this many people are dying. I know a lot of people who have just continued on with life as normal and still do! Because they want to do what they want, pure and simple. 

Where is the resilience and adaptability and lovingkindness to one's neighbors?

Yeah, I would agree that some of the people who think they are being so careful are mistaken - and that includes some of the people getting all judgmental on each other.  Or they think their excuses are more important/valid than everyone else's excuses.

This reminds me of a Bible verse - the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

[frogger]

43 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well, facebook posts or not, we really are all pretty much in the same boat.  This Covid crap has been going on in the USA for nearly a year.  Most people spent some time being more or less careful.  Most of us have not caught the Rona, and those who have caught it and recovered are extremely unlikely to catch it again and spread it.  We've all made sacrifices.  I don't believe there's anyone who hasn't sacrificed at some level.  I don't see the point of blaming each other for it.  Do you really believe that if Joe Schmo down the street would just do xyz, the pandemic would have been over long ago?  Even in countries that have taken drastic measures compared to the USA, life is not "back to normal" and the pandemic is still present.

I don't go to church because I consider it risky for the elders who do go to our church.  That's my personal choice.  Nobody is stopping me.  It would be rather silly for me to be angry or jealous of those who choose to go to church, when it's purely my own choice keeping me away.  People who want to go should go!  The only thing that bugs me is when people get an attitude about me staying home.

On the other hand, I choose to participate with my kids in certain sports.  Nobody is forced to be there breathing our breath.  And IMO nobody has a right to be angry or jealous because we do this.  There are enough things we don't do.

But the elderly parent thing - I think we are all really in the same boat on that one.  We all have to be careful, whether it's by staying away from our parents or staying away from everyone else.  We all have to deal with the worry when our parents choose to take risks, for whatever reasons.  And I believe that's true whether people voice this or not.  A lot of times people talk big in order to hide their fears, especially over things they can't control.

So it doesn't make sense to me when someone says "I'm so angry because I'm afraid to visit my extended family now.  And because of this, I'm not going to choose to see extended family for the rest of my life."  Family and friends are precious - or what are we even talking about here?

I don't think it's that simple. Our actions affect other people's action. We are choosing to not visit the in laws for awhile because it is important to see some other careful people. In laws pretend the whole thing is a hoax. They also are caretakers of my mentally disabled BIL. BIL would probably rather live with us but that is currently not possible between his job, distance, paperwork etc. But now if I want to be careful to see others, then I have to neglect and not see in laws, which wouldn't bother me but it greatly bothers me that that leaves BIL alone or not see my other parents. Mother would rather die than be left alone. 

 

You are making a choice not to attend church so others can because you are considering others and their needs but I see a lot of, "I'll do whatever I damn well please and I'll do it all. If you have a problem isolate yourself." Like I said, it is easy to say, see ya later to them but their are others affected and sometime that leaves them with nothing. I guess I just wish people could think about others at least a smidge.

[RootAnn]

19 hours ago, Choirfarm3 said:

It's not that. It is having relationships with people who are generations older than we are. It can be a neighbor or church member. But I think society lacks something without intergenerational relationships.

Luckily, we can choose to have relationships without having to physically see them in person. Harder to do, for sure, especially for the very young, but do-able. (I have a relationship with Jesus but have to spend time listening & speaking with him even if I can't see him physically.)

My kids had long-distance grandparents & extended family which was generally a good thing since the ones who lived the longest are the most toxic. I wish they would have had doting, sweet grandparents & close relationships with healthy aunt/uncle role-models. They didn't/ don't. Then again, neither did I. Perhaps we are all crippled because of it.

I feel that a pandemic wouldn't stop a good relationship unless there were technology issues (like no phones and one side had no computer access/ability).

On 12/27/2020 at 1:52 PM, RootAnn said:

My best friend wanted dd#1 & I to go over together today to see her & her daughter (dd's friend) but they just had a big family gathering last night. Inside. For hours.

Just quoting myself here to update that my Bf texted to say she's been exposed to a person who has since tested positive to covid-19.

I think, @Garga, that when others splurge on their Covid-risk budget without counting the cost, it is more likely that these things happen. So, if the whole group had considered their visit to you as their splurge and cut back on their other exposures while consistently masking & social distancing in the rest of their lives for the past two weeks, the chances of one of them being covid-positive would have been much less.

My best friend chose to completely blow any covid risk budget she had. The first bill showed up. I hope it doesn't end up being too expensive for anyone there. :( 

[Happy2BaMom]

8 hours ago, kand said:

No, but I believe if Joe Schmo down the street agreed to do xyz many more people would be alive. And that that applies to thousands of Joe Schmos around the country, equaling many thousands of deaths caused by Joe Schmos refusing to do xyz. 

Yes, and "Joe Schmo" is pretty much just an American phenomena.

Taiwan - a country with 4 million more people than Florida in 1/4 the land area - does not have Joe Schmos. They have had a TOTAL of 8 Covid deaths and a TOTAL of less than 800 cases (and if you don't believe the stats, please note that they've been back to relative normal for months. They and other Asian countries have amazing systems in place to contain this virus. And of course there's the examples of Australia, New Zealand, and others.

No matter how much Americans want to slag off on, "we can't do this anymore, we have a RIGHT to see/do/participate in ________________", the truth is that "we" created this very situation, and will be here for months (at least) to come. 

[ktgrok]

15 hours ago, TAFKAPastry said:

I’m sorry, but this is bordering on absurd. And letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you’re making people mask. And stay home. And stand far apart. But we still won’t allow verbal communication and will look down our noses at those who actually try for any?  The problem is ceasing to be the virus.

Aaaaand this is reminding me why I stopped posting here. SMH.

1. of course it is allowed. she simply explained why she chooses not to

2. no on was looking down their nose at people communicating via mask. Heck, I have to at doctor's offices, etc. 

14 hours ago, SKL said:

I think the point of recognizing this privilege is to fight the temptation to judge others who may or may not have comparable privilege.  Especially not based on a snippet of their lives, such as a photo posted on facebook.  Would you (general you) even know if the individuals only took off their masks momentarily for the photos (because many of us don't consider life in a mask as a fond memory)?  Would you know of the dozen other reasons why some people aren't wearing masks?  Would you know if someone in the group was terminally ill and living out their last wish?  Or if those individuals had isolated for weeks in order to make this moment safe?  Or if they have already had Covid?

 

I DO know this, because I know these people! My best friend's brother, and her sister, were examples I gave. No, they didn't have a 30 person party with no masks because someone has a terminal illness. They did it ecause they wanted to. They have not already had Covid (that they know of) although the brother did go out to eat (indoor dining, no masks) while waiting for a Covid test after known close exposure. Again, not because of terminal illness or a snapshot of no mask, etc. Actual careless behavior. And no, he wasn't isolated for weeks - he works as a cop with the public and there are constantly people out sick in his department with Covid. And no, the people that flew into town for the dinner at the sister's house were not isolated - they'd been on a plane from across the state. No one was terminal. Just cause they wanted to. And no, they didn't wear masks. 

Same with the mom's group people posting photos of eating out together at the same table - I KNOW thy aren't isolating becasue they post too many photos of themselves with others. And I know that the relative in Ohio posting photos with various extended family from several states isn't isolating - she works in a school. And I know the ones flying across the country and posting shot after shot of wine tastings and restaurant meals are not isolating or wearing masks to eat. 

This is NOT people having to work, or seeing granpa one last time. It's people acting like there is no pandemic. And it puts the rest of us at higher risk.  

The idea that we are "jealous" is silly. I'm not jealous - I'm concerned for my health and the health of others. To say this doesn't involve me is crazy - a pandemic involves everyone. 

 

[scholastica]

48 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Yes, and "Joe Schmo" is pretty much just an American phenomena.

Taiwan - a country with 4 million more people than Florida in 1/4 the land area - does not have Joe Schmos. They have had a TOTAL of 8 Covid deaths and a TOTAL of less than 800 cases (and if you don't believe the stats, please note that they've been back to relative normal for months. They and other Asian countries have amazing systems in place to contain this virus. And of course there's the examples of Australia, New Zealand, and others.

No matter how much Americans want to slag off on, "we can't do this anymore, we have a RIGHT to see/do/participate in ________________", the truth is that "we" created this very situation, and will be here for months (at least) to come. 

This is evidence of the concept of tight and loose cultures. A long listen on the concept.

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, scholastica said:

This is evidence of the concept of tight and loose cultures. A long listen on the concept.

Maybe. Or maybe it's partially government competence. What, am I supposed to believe that New Zealand culture is so radically different than ours? It's even listed as loose in your link. 

[RootAnn]

One of my friends' families just got back from vacation, one just left on vacation, and another acquaintance is leaving tomorrow. A couple of family members from the family who just returned are supposedly covid-positive.

It is going to be a mess when schools start back up, especially college. (My area peaked right before Christmas & is looking better but will likely turn bad again in a week.)

[Kassia]

7 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

 

It is going to be a mess when schools start back up, especially college. (My area peaked right before Christmas & is looking better but will likely turn bad again in a week.)

I'm thinking the same thing about schools/colleges.  😞  

[RootAnn]

31 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

Well, I know it is not perfect, but my daughter has to have a negative Covid test within 3 days of returning. Yes, I know, you can be positive the next day. But still, I think it should help. Many colleges are requiring that.

My dd#1's college is requiring athletes & dorm residents to test within 7 days of in person class starting but is not currently asking commuter students to test. Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Kassia]

50 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

Well, I know it is not perfect, but my daughter has to have a negative Covid test within 3 days of returning. Yes, I know, you can be positive the next day. But still, I think it should help. Many colleges are requiring that.

Dd's college is requiring testing before going back to the dorms.  So dd will test when she gets on campus, but is flying in so she'll be exposed when she's flying in the planes and airports (couldn't get a direct flight).  Plus, it's my understanding that it's not a rapid test so students go to their dorms before results are in if that's true.  Makes no sense to me.

 

[Amy Gen]

My oldest’s school is requiring weekly tests for graduate students and faculty and testing either twice or three times a week for undergraduates. I think their numbers are still alarmingly high. 
 

I’m just glad that my kid isn’t having in person classes. 

[Amy Gen]

2 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

Are these tests free? Because that could get expensive!

Yes. They are free, but if they miss a test, they are no longer a student in good standing. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Amy Gen said:

My oldest’s school is requiring weekly tests for graduate students and faculty and testing either twice or three times a week for undergraduates. I think their numbers are still alarmingly high. 
 

I’m just glad that my kid isn’t having in person classes. 

My sister’s school is doing weekly testing for all the kids in the dorms. Last I checked, they were doing much better than the surrounding neighborhood.