Another black man murdered

[Xahm]

I started writing and erased because I was just rambling with sickened, pained, fearful rambling from the wife of a LEO who is similarly sickened. I hope the officer, and any officer who knew what was happening and could have stopped him, are arrested soon. How dare they kill and make all those people watch helplessly! And everyone who watches the videos in that same helpless position. Someone commenting on a friend's post asked what sense it makes to loot and destroy instead of protesting peacefully, and others said they couldn't understand either. I can. If we call those who looted and destroyed "Patriots" when they did it to protest taxation without representation, how can we claim others should remain calm when their lives are in danger, when they live and die without representation?

[Meriwether]

4 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Might sound silly but for boots-on-the-ground perspectives from individual officers, check out TikTok. Yes, I'm being serious. If you're not seeing officers speak out, then you're probably need to look for them. Try #copsontiktok, #officerstiktok, etc. Today, my feed was full of officers denouncing the officers' actions and calling it murder.

A high school classmate of mine has been a police officer all his adult life. He is a good man and, I believe, a good officer but that is only a guess because I knew him growing up. He spoke out in condemnation of this officer and urged other police officers to speak out against him, too.

[Ausmumof3]

Does anyone know if there’s truth to the claims that they (the victim and the killer) were former co-workers?

[Carrie12345]

10 hours ago, bolt. said:

I don't think African Americans aren't allowed to protest 'in any form' -- clearly people of colour can and do protest. It's just that the coverage of the protests also includes the 'drama' of people reacting against those protests. Which is to be expected. Anything worth protesting about has a contingent of people invested in objecting to the protest. A protest that gains a bad reaction isn't the same as a protest that didn't happen because it's 'not allowed'. We want to acknowledge that those who object to protests don't speak for the society -- which involves society speaking for itself (in support of the protests) so that the objectors are the 'outsiders' (instead of the protesters).

I think peaceful protests and other forms of advocacy / education have done something -- all kinds of people (me included) know a lot more about police violence against people of colour than I used to. It has shifted my basic response from "there's probably an explanation for this strange violent event" to "this fits a known pattern of violence". It has shifted public narrative from "so, a bad thing happened" to "another black man murdered". 

I think the demand for the bad apples to be rejected from law enforcement is coming. Or maybe I'm naive.

It is absurdly and disturbingly true. My kids have posted the kneeling protest vs. kneeling murder on social media and, when asked which one is worse, several people they know replied “both”. Like, actual people who we know, in our world. Equating peaceful protest with murder. In their own , willingly provide words (they sure did add more), in a public space, and they hit enter.  Because they really think those two things are on the same level.
I can’t stop thinking about how many there must be who don’t say it out loud.

[Ausmumof3]

There are reports that seven people have been shot in Louisville protests - 1 in critical condition.  
 

Because my US geography is pretty average I just want to say stay safe everyone - it looks a bit scary.

[JustEm]

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Does anyone know if there’s truth to the claims that they (the victim and the killer) were former co-workers?

According to the owner of a club they both worked there.  The officer was an off duty cop working outside the club and George Floyd worked security inside, according to the owner.  He is unsure if they knew each other.  So, with this information I imagine one of the reasons there hasn't been an arrest yet is they need to determine if it is manslaughter or not.  If they had a previous relationship then that could lead to motive for a worse crime.  So, they have to investigate that thoroughly. At least here's hoping no arrest has been made because there is still a lot to investigate.

https://kstp.com/news/george-floyd-fired-officer-overlapped-security-shifts-at-south-minneapolis-club-may-28-2020/5743990/

[Ausmumof3]

And now cnn reporters being arrested?! 😧

[TracyP]

I am so sickened by the murder of George Floyd. I pray his family gets justice and that cop gets the prison sentence he deserves.

This is all too close to home - literally as a Minnesotan and figuratively as I have several loved ones in LE. There are cops out there trying to make a difference. My friend who is a former cop that now teaches LE has started a program to bring diversity to police forces here in MN. She works closely with several chiefs across the metro area who are trying hard to do the same. She works hard on teaching de-escalation tactics and making students aware of their implicit bias. It's not enough, I guess. 🙁 But I want others to know that there are many, many cops trying to change the culture.

The Minneapolis police force has a horrible reputation within the police community. I had it explained like this: normally an officer's presence is seen as the first level of "force" in any situation. The officers are trained to escalate from there as needed. (This link explains it well). Minneapolis officers go to the scene somewhere between the end of level 2 (raised voice, shouting) and beginning of level 3 (light force, pushing). When you start there, you have no where to go but to extreme or even lethal force. There is a horrible, deep rooted culture in the Minneapolis police department that needs to be done away with.

I have a story from a friend who left the Minneapolis police force that illustrates just how commonplace their brutality is... I feel uncomfortable sharing it... but this one fact needs to be acknowledged: this is not a "bad apple". Sure, he may be among police officers in general, but the Minneapolis police department has a systematic problem that needs addressing. This cop needs to be charged, but that isn't enough. They need to change the entire culture within that department.

[hippiemamato3]

16 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Did I say I was giving the cop the benefit of the doubt?  I did NOT.  I said I thought he was pretty much 100% guilty from all I have seen, but I am willing try try and reserve judgment on what to do about it as more facts come out and details about the cop and situation are discussed and litigated.  You are not understanding what I am getting at but I cannot say it more clearly. He must have his day in court and this must be thoroughly litigated.  Guilt needs to be established as more details and witnesses come forward and evidence is entered into the record.  Angry mobs don’t get a man thrown in jail or put on death row, or they shouldn’t.  A judge and jury absolutely should.  And until I know more I’m watching and waiting and praying.

Where was George Floyd's day in court? You're amazing. 

[hs03842]

1 hour ago, TracyP said:

I have a story from a friend who left the Minneapolis police force that illustrates just how commonplace their brutality is... I feel uncomfortable sharing it... but this one fact needs to be acknowledged: this is not a "bad apple". Sure, he may be among police officers in general, but the Minneapolis police department has a systematic problem that needs addressing. This cop needs to be charged, but that isn't enough. They need to change the entire culture within that department.

This is a good point. I think a lot of times people come away from stuff like this focusing on examining individual cops and saying, “Most of them are great!  We just have bad individuals!”  But it can be audited to find that individual ~departments~ are worse than others. If some truly are horrid there must be a few departments that have been more successful at dealing with the issue of brutality that can be used as models while actively reforming the bad departments. 

For anyone who wants to make this about cops/supporting cops/etc.:  If someone actually likes and respects cops, they would insist that the departments they work for do not have a toxic, murderous culture. Good cops who “feel bullied or unsafe” actually speaking out because of their corrupt departments do not actually have a good job.  They can’t do as much good as they would be able to do in an ethically run department. Support cops by supporting reform. 

[J-rap]

1 hour ago, TracyP said:

I am so sickened by the murder of George Floyd. I pray his family gets justice and that cop gets the prison sentence he deserves.

This is all too close to home - literally as a Minnesotan and figuratively as I have several loved ones in LE. There are cops out there trying to make a difference. My friend who is a former cop that now teaches LE has started a program to bring diversity to police forces here in MN. She works closely with several chiefs across the metro area who are trying hard to do the same. She works hard on teaching de-escalation tactics and making students aware of their implicit bias. It's not enough, I guess. 🙁 But I want others to know that there are many, many cops trying to change the culture.

The Minneapolis police force has a horrible reputation within the police community. I had it explained like this: normally an officer's presence is seen as the first level of "force" in any situation. The officers are trained to escalate from there as needed. (This link explains it well). Minneapolis officers go to the scene somewhere between the end of level 2 (raised voice, shouting) and beginning of level 3 (light force, pushing). When you start there, you have no where to go but to extreme or even lethal force. There is a horrible, deep rooted culture in the Minneapolis police department that needs to be done away with.

I have a story from a friend who left the Minneapolis police force that illustrates just how commonplace their brutality is... I feel uncomfortable sharing it... but this one fact needs to be acknowledged: this is not a "bad apple". Sure, he may be among police officers in general, but the Minneapolis police department has a systematic problem that needs addressing. This cop needs to be charged, but that isn't enough. They need to change the entire culture within that department.

This is terribly sad and upsetting.  I wonder when this type of training/attitude began within the Minneapolis police community.  I'd be interested in tracing the roots of it and learning how it evolved.

[Janeway]

I think it is very simplistic to just claim all police are out to kill black people. I think what happened to this man was horrific. He didn't deserve it. But, it is not a systematic racist issue. Black people kill white people every day. White people kill black people every day. Insert Hispanic on all sides too. Police get murdered, police have murdered too.  It is just it makes huge news if a police officer kills a black person or a white person kills a black person. Statistics show this is not owned by one race over another. I, myself, have been on the receiving end of an aggressive cop that should be fired. I have warned my children to steer clear of the police and if ever confronted by one, keep their mouths shut, never fight back, never back talk, don't give any information, and call home as soon as possible. I am not even black and I don't live in a large city.  But I also know that most police are good people and most condemn what happened to this man.  I do believe if this man had been white/hispanic and everything else leading up to this were the same, the result would have been the same.

The officers that did this are evil. My bet is that they have done stuff before and nothing was done to stop them. There should be more accountability for those in those positions, positions of power like that. And the lies spread by the department..claiming the viewed the video. Just no...there should be prosecutions and life in prison. I would go for death on the officers but I am guessing a state like MN would not have the death penalty.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Janeway

[bolt.]

8 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I think it is very simplistic to just claim all police are out to kill black people. I think what happened to this man was horrific. He didn't deserve it. But, it is not a systematic racist issue. Black people kill white people every day. White people kill black people every day. Insert Hispanic on all sides too. Police get murdered, police have murdered too.  It is just it makes huge news if a police officer kills a black person or a white person kills a black person. Statistics show this is not owned by one race over another. I, myself, have been on the receiving end of an aggressive cop that should be fired. I have warned my children to steer clear of the police and if ever confronted by one, keep their mouths shut, never fight back, never back talk, don't give any information, and call home as soon as possible. I am not even black and I don't live in a large city.  But I also know that most police are good people and most condemn what happened to this man.  I do believe if this man had been white/hispanic and everything else leading up to this were the same, the result would have been the same.

The officers that did this are evil. My bet is that they have done stuff before and nothing was done to stop them. There should be more accountability for those in those positions, positions of power like that. And the lies spread by the department..claiming the viewed the video. Just no...there should be prosecutions and life in prison. I would go for death on the officers but I am guessing a state like MN would not have the death penalty.

It's absolutely a systemic racist issue. Claiming to the contrary, no matter how you try to provide context for your understanding, does not make your understanding of race relations remotely accurate. You need more facts. Try taking your open minded stance in that direction. Nobody as intelligent as you should be spouting head-in-the-sand flat-earth-level absurd claims like this murder 'not being a systemic racist issue'. Police brutality towards people of colour is an issue that basically epitomizes systemic racism. It needs more of your attention.

[Moonhawk]

1 hour ago, JoyKM said:

This is a good point. I think a lot of times people come away from stuff like this focusing on examining individual cops and saying, “Most of them are great!  We just have bad individuals!”  But it can be audited to find that individual ~departments~ are worse than others. If some truly are horrid there must be a few departments that have been more successful at dealing with the issue of brutality that can be used as models while actively reforming the bad departments. 

For anyone who wants to make this about cops/supporting cops/etc.:  If someone actually likes and respects cops, they would insist that the departments they work for do not have a toxic, murderous culture. Good cops who “feel bullied or unsafe” actually speaking out because of their corrupt departments do not actually have a good job.  They can’t do as much good as they would be able to do in an ethically run department. Support cops by supporting reform. 

Quoting you just because I agree and at any point if my argument doesn't make sense, just come back and read what Joy wrote. 

27 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I think it is very simplistic to just claim all police are out to kill black people. I think what happened to this man was horrific. He didn't deserve it. But, it is not a systematic racist issue. Black people kill white people every day. White people kill black people every day. Insert Hispanic on all sides too. Police get murdered, police have murdered too.  It is just it makes huge news if a police officer kills a black person or a white person kills a black person. Statistics show this is not owned by one race over another. I, myself, have been on the receiving end of an aggressive cop that should be fired. I have warned my children to steer clear of the police and if ever confronted by one, keep their mouths shut, never fight back, never back talk, don't give any information, and call home as soon as possible. I am not even black and I don't live in a large city.  But I also know that most police are good people and most condemn what happened to this man.  I do believe if this man had been white/hispanic and everything else leading up to this were the same, the result would have been the same.

The officers that did this are evil. My bet is that they have done stuff before and nothing was done to stop them. There should be more accountability for those in those positions, positions of power like that. And the lies spread by the department..claiming the viewed the video. Just no...there should be prosecutions and life in prison. I would go for death on the officers but I am guessing a state like MN would not have the death penalty.

No one here has said that all police are out to kill black people. Strawman.

Pointing out that people kill people does not negate that blacks are at more risk to be killed by police. You can qualify that with "in certain regions" if you like, but that is just being argumentative to seem open-minded and fair, if I'm going to give my opinion. 

It is systemic racism: "Systemic Racism includes the policies and practices entrenched in established institutions, which result in the exclusion or promotion of designated groups. " Source for more indepth definition if you are confused.

This is not saying that ALL police departments suffer from systemic racism. I would argue that many departments do have this problem, yes. But there are definite practices if not in-ink policies that promote racial profiling and automatically escalating the situation when the suspect is black. 

"But, but that's just, like, your opinion, Moonhawk!" I'll save us a step in this chain and just reply to this now.

This is not just "news cycle! Whipping up race issues once again! Cherry picked!" Blacks are at more risk.

This website has great data broken down into nice pictures. I took 4 or 5 screenshots that would be super great but don't want to derail all of this too much. Here is where you go to learn more: https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

edited for clarity. took out 3 words.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Moonhawk

[hs03842]

44 minutes ago, Janeway said:

 Black people kill white people every day. White people kill black people every day. Insert Hispanic on all sides too. 

I am not even black and I don't live in a large city.

The issue here is we are talking about the police as a government agency/institution--this is not really talking about crimes committed out among the community.  I will have to agree that my interactions with police as a white person have been typically unpleasant, and the "friendly policeman" meme doesn't really resonate as much.  Maybe I'm not a rich or hot enough white person to have it matter (which is a factor).  That said, I have never felt like I would be killed or had them harass me in an extended way.  Too many black people have shared these experiences and are being shut down.  That is why people are upset.  That is why there is an issue in the way that the institution handles things.

All of these incidents must also be analyzed in terms of what personalities are drawn to become a cop.  Here are ones I see:  1)  Good people who want to help the community.  2)  People for whom being a cop is a family career (ie "My dad was a cop, so I am going to be a cop.) 3) For people who have been at it awhile, those who have seen a lot of heinous crimes and have developed some sort of PTSD/issue that makes them more erratic than they would have wanted to be.  These people need to leave the force and get  counseling.*** 4) Narcissists who like to have power over other people and, therefore, become a cop so they can do that legally.  In my opinion these "bad cops" will not go away.  There will ALWAYS be people who like to have power over others in an unhealthy way who are drawn to the police force because that's what they get to have.  Who do they choose to be their worst selves to?  People that society doesn't listen to and who they can get away with abusing.  So big shock--we hear about black people dying because of people like that and no one cares.  So they keep doing it.  

Solution: CHANGE: the way that the department handles those abusive personalities.  TRAIN differently--don't let sitting on someone's neck be acceptable.  REPRIMAND abusive cops early in their career, maintaining a paper trail of sorts indicating that the person has an issue with responsibly handling their authority.  These are three basic but broad systemic changes that could be made to keep those "bad apples"--who will absolutely continue to seek employment with the police force generation after generation--from ruining the police force from within.  

***Homicide Hunter Joe Kenda's series finale was a great example of knowing when to quit.  He had seen so many bad crimes that he was starting to become angry and disenchanted at the world.  One day he blew up in a way that scared him at a pedophile who was actively confessing to being a pedophile.  He was no longer able  to maintain is professionalism due to what he had seen.  That day he applied for retirement and did not return to the force.  There is a toll taken on police officers because of what they see.  It is probably not something that should be considered a life long career for many people.

Edited May 29, 2020 by JoyKM

[TCB]

15 hours ago, Laurie said:

I hadn't seen this video before.  Now that I've seen it,  I don't know if this is a murder or a drug overdose.  The man didn't look steady on his feet to me, and having stomach pain and breathing problems could indicate that what he needed was an immediate dose of naloxone instead of a knee on his neck.  

I was 100% willing to believe that George Floyd died because of the police officer until I saw this surveillance video.  It won't bring him back to his family, but I hope there's an autopsy report soon.  

My internet is so bad that I can’t get the video to load so I can watch it. I would say though - in my training putting someone in the recovery position didn’t involve putting your knee on their neck.

[Carrie12345]

Make more black and brown friends.
Listen to their experiences.
Pay attention to what happens when you go out in public with them multiple times.
THEN see if you still believe there isn’t a difference.

[hs03842]

Bottom line:  The police force attracts and houses a certain type of bad personality that needs to be MANAGED, MONITORED, and DISCIPLINED as needed.  It is the system that has the power to do this.  If it is not managed, which is clearly a problem in various departments right now, that personality can take over, reaching high up in levels of leadership and attracting others like itself to a particular force because that force allows them to get away with being a bad person.

Any effort to manage those bad personalities will a) not impact the good cops negatively--they will naturally want to have those sorts of measures in place and work well within them. b) enhance the work of the good cops by making their desires to serve the community easier to do, and, most importantly, c) make members of the community who are vulnerable to the abuse of police authority safer.  Another manifestation of this abuse of police authority is when you hear of a police officer who pulls over single female drivers at night to sexually assault them (I watch a lot of crime shows.  This is out there.)  They can get protection behind the thin blue line, too.  People like that are evil, and we need to use the system to find, remove, and prosecute them.

The first step is for people who are not vulnerable and are, therefore, able to ignore what's going on is to actually acknowledge that this dynamic exists and not want it to be a part of our society anymore.  Spoiler alert:  I personally had to have that epiphany.  Now that I have, I DO NOT want this to be part of my society anymore.  

[Laurie]

37 minutes ago, TCB said:

My internet is so bad that I can’t get the video to load so I can watch it. I would say though - in my training putting someone in the recovery position didn’t involve putting your knee on their neck.

I agree!  I hope what I wrote didn't sound like it was acceptable to hold someone down with a knee on their neck like that because that wasn't my intention at all!  

Thank goodness for bystanders with cell phones...I just saw another video this morning showing that there were three police kneeling on him!  Again, it doesn't bring  George Floyd back, but at least there's plenty of evidence to use in the trial so they get the punishment they deserve.  

Edited May 29, 2020 by Laurie

[Matryoshka]

Just saw this video on Facebook, of the riots.  Bystander videos of people smashing windows and setting fires.  But the bystanders (peaceful protesters) followed these people with their cameras to ask them to stop destroying things.  The looters/arsonists are wearing gas masks that hide their faces, all black clothes.  But underneath it all when the cameras get close - they are white people.  I'm'a thinking these people were not protesting the death of Floyd George, but trying to make the protesters look like hoodlums...  This isn't just speculation, it's live video of these people doing it.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Matryoshka

[J-rap]

28 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Just saw this video on Facebook, of the riots.  Bystander videos of people smashing windows and setting fires.  But the bystanders (peaceful protesters) followed these people with their cameras to ask them to stop destroying things.  The looters/arsonists are wearing gas masks that hide their faces, all black clothes.  But underneath it all when the cameras get close - they are white people.  I'm'a thinking these people were not protesting the death of Floyd George, but trying to make the protesters look like hoodlums...  This isn't just speculation, it's live video of these people doing it.

 

Unfortunately, I do think many of the looters are people who are just taking advantage of the situation.  Apparently drugs like oxycodone are being stolen as well.

[J-rap]

Derrick Chauvin was arrested, according to MPR news.

[hs03842]

-

Edited June 8, 2020 by JoyKM

[Moonhawk]

14 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Unfortunately, I do think many of the looters are people who are just taking advantage of the situation.  Apparently drugs like oxycodone are being stolen as well.

Yes, unfortunately happening.

It seems there are 4 tiers (definitions mine):

1. [Peaceful] Protestors:  people who are showing a demonstration against what has happened but haven't caused destruction. Vast majority of demonstrators are peaceful protestors.

2. Non-peaceful protestors, or, Rioters: people who are showing a demonstration against what has happened by destroying property. 

3. Looters: people who are taking advantage of what's going on with the riots and using the cover of rioters to benefit themselves.

4. Saboteurs: people making either the protestors or rioters look bad through various means. Matryoshka's post shows one example. I've seen some photos of the protests that make it looks like no one is showing up to the peaceful demonstrations, juxtaposed with over-crowded riot photos, this is another type of sabotage. Basically, trying to de-legitimize people's rightful anger and reactions. 

As this goes on we'll probably see more of #4, whether or not we realize it 😞  

eta: And, as time goes on, it will start just being referred to as one homogenous entity instead of 4 different groups with different motives. Since 2, 3, and 4 are usually louder and make better photos, the danger of the #1s getting dismissed is high. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Moonhawk

[Pawz4me]

The county attorney just concluded a press conference. Chauvin is being charged with third degree murder and manslaughter. The county attorney said he expected the other officers to be charged, but he didn't specify what charges he anticipates.

[Sneezyone]

57 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

The county attorney just concluded a press conference. Chauvin is being charged with third degree murder and manslaughter. The county attorney said he expected the other officers to be charged, but he didn't specify what charges he anticipates.

 

3rd degree murder/manslaughter is a joke. Basically, he didn't mean it or intend to keep his knee on the man's windpipe. As I said, I have ZERO confidence in the 'justice' system. There's a long history of the law recognizing that intent can be formed in an instant. If you are informed (as these LEOs were) that the man was not responsive...if you are informed or it's suggested to check his pulse and you don't...If you are trained that chokeholds and other such restrains can cause death...your choice not to do basic due diligence and continue pressing on his windpipe can form intent. These charges are YET ANOTHER cop out.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Tanaqui]

35 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

The county attorney just concluded a press conference. Chauvin is being charged with third degree murder and manslaughter. The county attorney said he expected the other officers to be charged, but he didn't specify what charges he anticipates.

 

Seriously? That's a joke. That's complete garbage.

[Moonhawk]

Quote

 

Minneapolis Mayor Frey, Wednesday: 

"George Floyd deserves justice, his family deserves justice, the black community deserves justice, and our city deserves justice....We watched for five whole excruciating minutes as a white officer firmly pressed his knee into the neck of an unarmed, handcuffed black man ... I saw no threat, I saw nothing that would signal that this kind of force was necessary."

Hennepin County Attorney's Office, Wednesday:

"This office is aware of Mayor Frey’s comments. We are working with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the Hennepin County Medical Examiner to expeditiously gather and review all of the evidence in the tragic death of Mr. George Floyd. The videotaped death of Mr. Floyd, which has outraged us and people across the country, deserves the best we can give and that is what this office will do."

3rd degree murder charge in Minnesota, via Wikipedia: 

"Minnesota law originally defined third-degree murder solely as depraved-heart murder ("without intent to effect the death of any person, caus[ing] the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life").^[7][8] In 1987, an additional drug-related provision ("without intent to cause death, proximately caus[ing] the death of a human being by, directly or indirectly, unlawfully selling, giving away, bartering, delivering, exchanging, distributing, or administering a controlled substance classified in Schedule I or II") was added to the definition of third-degree murder. 

Translation:

Well...he uh.... didn't mean to kill him ALL the way. He just wanted him MOSTLY dead. And you know, that's not as bad as it could be right? Certainly not pre-meditated Murder 1. certainly not Murder 2, where he could have realized that kneeling on a man's neck while he says he can't breathe, loses consciousness, and control of his bodily functions, that death was really a distinct possibility. Really, he was just a little overzealous. Pinky swear.

Yes, Hennepin County Attorney, this is certainly "the best you can give."

eta: to add emphasis, all emphasis my own.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Moonhawk

[Slache]

I don't think they can prove murder 1 or 2 in court.

[bolt.]

10 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

"without intent to effect the death of any person, caus[ing] the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life"

I HATE that I can see why they chose this charge. It covers the mindset of someone who can say, "Of course I knew that he could be dying, because I was totally doing a life-threatening thing, but I didn't really care if he lived or died. I would have been fine with either outcome." It covers situations that are missing the motivational element of *intention to kill*.

Intention to kill would mean that the perpetrator had a preference over whether his victim lived or died. I can see that it would be hard to prove that the perpetrator had a preference for the death of his victim. Wow, that there are people who, absent of any particular desire to kill someone, would just kill them anyways because they didn't give two f's about their victims life one way or the other. There are enough of those people that there's a whole class of murder for them.

But why is that 'third class murder'? To me that's not someone enraged, experiencing criminal but human urges to take a life in a situation that has crossed some boundary within them. That 'third class' of murderer is someone who lives their whole life on the other side of that inner boundary. 'Third class' murderers sound a hell of a lot more dangerous than the other types. They are certainly a horrifying bunch.

Edited May 29, 2020 by bolt.

[Moonhawk]

4 minutes ago, Slache said:

I don't think they can prove murder 1 or 2 in court.

Okay, so I can understand wanting to bat for a lower standard to make sure you get the home run. And, yes, the max sentence of Murder 3 in MN is 25 years. So technically I can see this as the "smart move."

And reading MN's particular Murder 2 statute, I guess since the murder didn't happen while in the middle of another law-breaking activity or while one had an order of protection, maybe that is the sticking point.

I had assumed all Murder 2 was where death was known as a distinct possibility from their actions but not necessarily pre-meditated.

I have overreached all of my legal knowledge and am now happy to let more knowledgable heads weigh in.  But my initial response will remain.

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, Slache said:

I don't think they can prove murder 1 or 2 in court.

 

Read it and weep.

This is the Minnesota statute for 3rd degree:https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

This is the statute for 2nd degree: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19 This was a felony assault.

ETA: I would like to see a new statute added too that enumerates LEO murders of civilians while in the commission of a felony (assault) as an enumerated murder 1 charge.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I HATE that I can see why they chose this charge. It covers the mindset of someone who can say, "Of course I knew that he could be dying, because I was totally doing a life-threatening thing, but I didn't really care if he lived or died. I would have been fine with either outcome." It covers situations that are missing the motivational element of *intention to kill*.

 

So does Murder 2.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[catz]

1 hour ago, J-rap said:

Unfortunately, I do think many of the looters are people who are just taking advantage of the situation.  Apparently drugs like oxycodone are being stolen as well.

I am local as well and I'm seeing a lot of this on my feed.  Out of town opportunists have come to take advantage of the situation.  There are a number of services that will interrupted for people living in poverty in the area.  And anyone who has been living the last 2 months, know that groceries, etc have been hard to come by anyway.  Minnesota covid cases are still peaking.

Minneapolis PD has a terrible track record with regards to racism.  Absolutely agree it's a systemic issue.

I am glad the arrested this officer. This story just came across my feed which maybe helps explain why they chose these charges given the autopsy report.  They need something that can stick in court.  They can add later too if more evidence comes out 

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/complaint-derek-chauvin-had-knee-on-george-floyds-neck-for-almost-9-minutes?fbclid=IwAR2LbwNUPbQZ7zON9dRmbAnpj7zTOwHUwaT2fQONYVKOBaFUQi_4COnbxDM

Edited May 29, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[Sneezyone]

50 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I am local as well and I'm seeing a lot of this on my feed.  Out of town opportunists have come to take advantage of the situation.  There are a number of services that will interrupted for people living in poverty in the area.  And anyone who has been living the last 2 months, know that groceries, etc have been hard to come by anyway.  Minnesota covid cases are still peaking.

Minneapolis PD has a terrible track record with regards to racism.  Absolutely agree it's a systemic issue.

I am glad the arrested this officer. This story just came across my feed which maybe helps explain why they chose these charges given the autopsy report.  They need something that can stick in court.  They can add later too if more evidence comes out 

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/complaint-derek-chauvin-had-knee-on-george-floyds-neck-for-almost-9-minutes?fbclid=IwAR2LbwNUPbQZ7zON9dRmbAnpj7zTOwHUwaT2fQONYVKOBaFUQi_4COnbxDM

 

Yeah, not buying that. If your dad has hypertension and is knelt on the way this man was would you see that as his cause of death? Intoxication, hypertension or not, he'd be alive but for the action of that LEO. If you 'accidentally' shoot a drunken guy on your lawn was the intoxication the cause of his death? This is, yet again, part of the corrupt system to protect LEOs. The examiner has relationships with LEOs just like the prosecutors. No one can have their oxygen restricted that long without consequences and to suggest that his intoxication caused him to lose consciousness and die is ridiculous. Fortunately, this family has enough legal support to obtain a private autopsy.

ETA: I literally just walked back to my computer to say the family has, according to their attorney, noted this EXACT thing WRT to the medical examiner's determination. They have taken custody of the body and will obtain a private autopsy by Dr. Michael Baden. Literally just saw this on TV.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I heard the equivocal statement on the news - 'oh, well he may have had pre-existing health conditions' - so what, now the more unwell a black man is, the more his foul mistreatment can be excused? 

I honestly don't give a sh*t what pre-existing health conditions he had, up to and including intoxication, which was also implied (I mean, I do, but for the purposes of 'clear-headedness aka looking for a way to blame Floyd for his own death...)

Having every health issue under the sun doesn't make it better! It makes it WORSE!

Police have a duty of care not to exacerbate the condition of vulnerable people unto death!

I am glad the family is able to get a private autopsy performed. 

 

It's just another way to blame the victim for his/her own death.

[Tanaqui]

18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It's just another way to blame the victim for his/her own death.

 

He should've been born white if he cared so much.

[AbcdeDooDah]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

I heard the equivocal statement on the news - 'oh, well he may have had pre-existing health conditions' - so what, now the more unwell a black man is, the more his foul mistreatment can be excused? 

I honestly don't give a sh*t what pre-existing health conditions he had, up to and including intoxication, which was also implied (I mean, I do, but for the purposes of 'clear-headedness aka looking for a way to blame Floyd for his own death...)

Having every health issue under the sun doesn't make it better! It makes it WORSE!

Police have a duty of care not to exacerbate the condition of vulnerable people unto death!

I am glad the family is able to get a private autopsy performed. 

 

 

I just saw an article today about a similar case where the man died while being held to the ground and the death was blamed on his poor health and preexisting conditions. The charges were dropped against officers, even though their cameras show they were joking about whether or not they had killed him. 😥

Edited May 29, 2020 by AbcdeDooDah

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Oh I’m calm, but there are no more facts to come out, it’s all sealed.  I’m absolutely judging by what she has said, though I will adjust that if more information does come out, the entire story looks terrible and the underlying cultural behavior is a big problem.  Objectively that is true and personally it upsets me.  That isn’t an ongoing criminal case though, where there is public discovery.  Also no murder, and no life and death and prison penalties.  Not the same.  Cute try though, and it is good to double check my personal consistency 🙂

I will say this statement is one I stand behind and strongly affirm, both for social justice in general and justice and appropriate treatment for differently abled adults and children, too.  Consistency is important:

WE AFFIRM that God created every person equally in his own image. As divine image-bearers, all people have inestimable value and dignity before God and deserve honor, respect and protection. Everyone has been created by God and for God

 

It’s certainly a good belief for Christians to have, but forgive me if I don’t really believe most take it seriously based on who many support as leaders who almost daily not only disrespect, dishonor, and fail to protect fellow human beings, but encourage and incite others to do the same. 

[hippiemamato3]

5 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Oh I’m calm, but there are no more facts to come out, it’s all sealed.  I’m absolutely judging by what she has said, though I will adjust that if more information does come out, the entire story looks terrible and the underlying cultural behavior is a big problem.  Objectively that is true and personally it upsets me.  That isn’t an ongoing criminal case though, where there is public discovery.  Also no murder, and no life and death and prison penalties.  Not the same.  Cute try though, and it is good to double check my personal consistency 🙂

I will say this statement is one I stand behind and strongly affirm, both for social justice in general and justice and appropriate treatment for differently abled adults and children, too.  Consistency is important:

WE AFFIRM that God created every person equally in his own image. As divine image-bearers, all people have inestimable value and dignity before God and deserve honor, respect and protection. Everyone has been created by God and for God

 

So this doesn't apply to George Floyd, but only the white men who killed him? Interesting. And  if you meant Trump - I can't even. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by hippiemamato3

[Momto6inIN]

I won't watch the video. I have no desire to see a human being loved by God murdered. I'm scared to click on any links I see because I don't want to see that video. The pictures are bad enough 😢 Does anybody have a link to just the story? Obviously I know the gist of it because I haven't been living under a rock. But I would like to read about facts such as:

Was he just walking down the street or was he pulled over for driving while black? How did it escalate to have 4 officers present? Who called 911? How long did he lie there dying until the EMTs got there? Etc.

[Janeway]

10 hours ago, JoyKM said:

 

All of these incidents must also be analyzed in terms of what personalities are drawn to become a cop.  Here are ones I see:  1)  Good people who want to help the community.  2)  People for whom being a cop is a family career (ie "My dad was a cop, so I am going to be a cop.) 3) For people who have been at it awhile, those who have seen a lot of heinous crimes and have developed some sort of PTSD/issue that makes them more erratic than they would have wanted to be.  These people need to leave the force and get  counseling.*** 4) Narcissists who like to have power over other people and, therefore, become a cop so they can do that legally.  In my opinion these "bad cops" will not go away.  There will ALWAYS be people who like to have power over others in an unhealthy way who are drawn to the police force because that's what they get to have.  Who do they choose to be their worst selves to?  People that society doesn't listen to and who they can get away with abusing.  So big shock--we hear about black people dying because of people like that and no one cares.  So they keep doing it.  

Solution: CHANGE: the way that the department handles those abusive personalities.  TRAIN differently--don't let sitting on someone's neck be acceptable.  REPRIMAND abusive cops early in their career, maintaining a paper trail of sorts indicating that the person has an issue with responsibly handling their authority.  These are three basic but broad systemic changes that could be made to keep those "bad apples"--who will absolutely continue to seek employment with the police force generation after generation--from ruining the police force from within.  

 

This guy who did the killing had complaints about him before. The people I know in MPLS say this incident is not isolated and not just one race. Oh, when I said about how I have been treated, I was referencing as a white mom in suburbs. Some ..well, we have words for people like the cops who did this, but I will just put the initials, SPGs who did this have done stuff before and should have been removed. Everyone involved in the coverup should have been too. Did you see the release by the MPLS PD before they found out there was a video? The police chief signed off claiming he viewed the bodycams and backed up the cops stories. This would make me go "hmmm" about a lot of past stuff in MPLS. That city used to be one of the safest in the country, not anymore. I feel so angry over what has happened. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/minneapolis-struggled-with-police-violence-and-adopted-reforms-and-yet-george-floyd-is-still-dead/2020/05/29/fe3ba110-a1e0-11ea-9590-1858a893bd59_story.html

[Terabith]

So, besides killing this man, and then attacking the peaceful protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets, and attacking medics who were giving first aid, and arresting a CNN crew, the Minneapolis police are spraying pepper spray at people not involved in protest.  A lawyer posted that he was sprayed twice walking to his hotel.  He said he saw police spraying people waiting at a bus stop.  

Honestly....I'm thinking the Minneapolis Police Department needs to be disbanded.  Officers can reapply for their jobs.  Their institutional culture is sicker than a covid ward.  

[TracyP]

8 hours ago, Terabith said:

So, besides killing this man, and then attacking the peaceful protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets, and attacking medics who were giving first aid, and arresting a CNN crew, the Minneapolis police are spraying pepper spray at people not involved in protest.  A lawyer posted that he was sprayed twice walking to his hotel.  He said he saw police spraying people waiting at a bus stop.  

Honestly....I'm thinking the Minneapolis Police Department needs to be disbanded.  Officers can reapply for their jobs.  Their institutional culture is sicker than a covid ward.  

Not a defense of Minneapolis police department, but this needs fact checking. The CNN crew was arrested by state police, not Minneapolis. I am not sure how this lawyer saw people waiting for a bus getting pepper sprayed since Metro Transit shut down bus and rail services on Thursday.

[Ausmumof3]

according to cnn a police officer has been killed on Oakland California 

[Pawz4me]

54 minutes ago, TracyP said:

Not a defense of Minneapolis police department, but this needs fact checking. The CNN crew was arrested by state police, not Minneapolis. I am not sure how this lawyer saw people waiting for a bus getting pepper sprayed since Metro Transit shut down bus and rail services on Thursday.

According to @Terabith the lawyer said people were "waiting at a bus stop" not "waiting for a bus." It seems to me there's a big difference. I have recently "waited at a bus stop" to shelter from a rainstorm. I had no intention of getting on a bus--I was walking to my destination--and it was completely irrelevant to me whether a bus was coming or not. I see no need for fact checking this statement.

(Note: I hope that doesn't sound snarky. I don't mean it to be! Just pointing out what to me is obvious about the language used.)

Edited May 30, 2020 by Pawz4me

[SquirrellyMama]

I'm wondering why the cops were called for a suspected counterfeit $20 bill? I work in retail and we don't even check 20s. If it was so obvious just being handed a bad bill I would refuse it. 

Kelly

 

[TracyP]

16 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

According to @Terabith the lawyer said people were "waiting at a bus stop" not "waiting for a bus." It seems to me there's a big difference. I have recently "waited at a bus stop" to shelter from a rainstorm. I had no intention of getting on a bus--I was walking to my destination--and it was completely irrelevant to me whether a bus was coming or not. I see no need for fact checking this statement.

(Note: I hope that doesn't sound snarky. I don't mean it to be! Just pointing out what to me is obvious about the language used.)

Sure, and that could be. They were at the very least in violation of curfew in that case. I'm not sure the use of pepper spray is warranted, but it is no longer Minneapolis police making this call. There is a lot of pot stirring going on in Minneapolis. White supremacists, drug cartel, and antifa are all being named. I'm skeptical about everything from all sides right now...[Deleting long rant about national guard, curfews, pepper spray and what is the right next step to restore order.]

Bah, it's a disaster and I'm super emotional right now. It's just what is going on in Minneapolis goes way beyond the police department and protects over George Floyd's murder. Which I know is far from your point, so don't take any of this as directed at you. 

[Joker]

1 hour ago, TracyP said:

Not a defense of Minneapolis police department, but this needs fact checking. The CNN crew was arrested by state police, not Minneapolis. I am not sure how this lawyer saw people waiting for a bus getting pepper sprayed since Metro Transit shut down bus and rail services on Thursday.

https://twitter.com/jordanuhl/status/1266193926316228609?s=21

This video has been making the rounds on my social media. Maybe that’s what they’re talking about? Not sure how true (as far as time and place) but the person is saying it was Minneapolis police and the video does appear to show one car just randomly spray people for no reason.

[TracyP]

2 minutes ago, Joker said:

https://twitter.com/jordanuhl/status/1266193926316228609?s=21

This video has been making the rounds on my social media. Maybe that’s what they’re talking about? Not sure how true (as far as time and place) but the person is saying it was Minneapolis police and the video does appear to show one car just randomly spray people for no reason.

Yeah, I can't speak to if it is true, but it looks like it was from Thursday so I don't question it. I assumed the poster was refererring to the pepper spray that was used last night. I don't think that should get lumped in with what has happened previously. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.