Another black man murdered

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

The enemy of the people rhetoric has come home to roost.

Ayup.

[historically accurate]

9 hours ago, Plum said:

What is going on? 
 

At least 19 journalists have been arrested, 36 journalists shot at by police with projectiles, and 76 journalists have been assaulted during the period of May 28 through 31 while covering protests throughout the US.

Of the 76 reported assaults on journalists, 80% were by police, either through physical encounters or being shot at. 

 

19 journalists arrested, hundreds (thousands?) of protesters arrested, and three of the four officers involved in Mr. Floyd's death have still not been arrested. 

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, beckyjo said:

19 journalists arrested, hundreds (thousands?) of protesters arrested, and three of the four officers involved in Mr. Floyd's death have still not been arrested. 

The governor appointed the Minnesota AG, Keith Ellison, to take over the case on Sunday, and he made it pretty clear yesterday that more charges are coming, including possibly upgrading charges against Chauvin: "We are reviewing the evidence, and we are reviewing the law, and we are going to charge this case in a manner consistent with the highest level of accountability that the facts and the law will support. I can assure you that we're taking a fresh look at this." 

Ellison, who is black, is a brilliant lawyer with years of experience as a defense attorney involved in civil rights and social justice. I have no doubt that he will be bringing charges against the other three, I think he is just trying to make sure that his case is airtight.

 

[Corraleno]

State of Minnesota files civil rights charges against the Minneapolis Police Department

"The Minnesota of Department of Human Rights is filing a commissioner's charge of discrimination to launch a civil rights investigation into the Minneapolis Police Department," Walz said. "The investigation will review MPD's policies, procedures and practices over the last 10 years to determine if the department has utilized systemic discriminatory practices towards people of color."

Human Rights Commissioner Rebecca Lucero said the agency served papers on the city at about 1 p.m. CT Tuesday. Lucero said that while investigators will have subpoena power, she expects the city to be open with records and that she hopes to have findings in "several months."

 

The Minneapolis City Council said it would assist. "We welcome and fully support the Minnesota Department of Human Rights' robust investigation of the Minneapolis Police Department," according to a council statement. "We urge the state to use its full weight to hold the Minneapolis Police Department accountable for any and all abuses of power and harms to our community and stand ready to aid in this process as full partners." The city lawmakers said their efforts to oversee the police department have "been historically constrained by the City Charter and state law," so they "welcome new tools to pursue transformational, structural changes."

Mayor Jacob Frey said in a statement, "For our city to begin healing, we need to deliver justice for George Floyd and his family and enact deep, meaningful policing reforms. For years in Minneapolis, police chiefs and elected officials committed to change have been thwarted by police union protections and laws that severely limit accountability among police departments," Frey said. "I welcome today's announcement because breaking through those persistent barriers, shifting the culture of policing, and addressing systemic racism will require all of us working hand-in-hand."

[Corraleno]

Minneapolis Public School board votes unanimously to terminate their $1.1 million annual contract with MPD. They will provide an alternate plan for school security by August 8th, and intend to divert some of the money towards better mental health services.

[Frances]

21 hours ago, Terabith said:

It's almost as if you call them the enemy of the people often enough, people start to believe it.

It completely baffles me how people don’t see right through the constant and unrelenting attacks on the media and journalists and instead buy wholeheartedly into without seeing it as the profound threat to democracy that it is. 

[Frances]

36 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Maybe it’s because you can only twist, lie, and seek to profit off of fomenting chaos and hatred for so many years before people start to look at the reality they see, look at the reporting, and walk away.

Numerous media sources brought the disdain on themselves because of their analysis and behavior.  Absolutely nobody should be physically attacked for their beliefs or their job, and that is completely contemptible and worthy of condemnation.  But I don’t think a clear minded or honest individual can look at most of TV and print media outlets without seeing narratives being spun and pushed and the expense of the truth and the people affected by them. 
 

I’m not going to debate this, it’s just my .02 as someone who limited my media consumption and exposure long before the current presidency, precisely because I was absolutely tired of being strung along, lied to, and emotionally manipulated for a buck.

Like you, I too have always limited my media consumption. Only print and primarily sources I support financially and trust. I actually heard a clip of Michelle Obama speaking on Netflix recently and was taken back because I realized I had never heard her voice before. If people walk away, both in terms of clicks/views and financial support of media (and their advertisers) they don’t trust, then that seems far more effective than making sweeping negative generalizations about most media while implying there are only a few, but usually unnamed, trustworthy sources.

And forgive me if I don’t think constantly shouting “fake news”, as is the trend these days, is some sort of rigorous, honest critique. I’m not saying that’s what you do, but it has become the norm, and I think that everything that goes along with it is a grave threat to freedom of the press and democracy. Relentlessly attacking critical media coverage is one of the first tactic corrupt leaders throughout history in other countries have used to try and convince the population that only they can be trusted as they begin to take control and limit freedoms and dissent. I mean personally, I wish talk radio would end, as I think it’s a scourge that has spread like cancer across our country and contributed immensely to the partisan divide. But I certainly believe it has a right to exist. But I also most definitely won’t be supporting it financially or by listening or by supporting its advertisers.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Frances

[klmama]

11 minutes ago, Frances said:

I mean personally, I wish talk radio would end, as I think it’s a scourge that has spread like cancer across our country and contributed immensely to the partisan divide. But I certainly believe it has a right to exist. But I also most definitely won’t be supporting it financially or by listening or by supporting its advertisers.

I learn a lot more about what's actually happening in my city and state by listening to a very partisan local talk radio host than I ever do by reading or watching the news.  Other people on both ends of the political spectrum listen for the same reason.  We can get a very minimal and white-washed version of the news from the "real" journalists, or we can get all the details from talk radio, whether or not we like the opinions expressed.  Many of us would rather know the details, so we can better make our voices heard by those making policy.  

 

[LucyStoner]

On 5/31/2020 at 9:05 AM, Sneezyone said:

No, they share similar tactics tho. Left wing anarchists is a more general term. There’s overlap. It includes people with strong feelings about climate ‘violence’ and animal cruelty, people with strong anti-fascist views, INCELs, as well as people who have no convictions at all except to sow chaos. If you think of a Venn diagram with left wing activists and anarchists, left wing anarchists would be in the middle.

You can draw the same circles on the political right with security and militia types, Anti-immigration people, white nationalists on one side and anarchists in the other circle. There is overlap. 

Yep,  the anarchists in Seattle definitely predate the collection of various activists who claim the term antifa.  The left wing anarchists that show up in Seattle have a tendency to show up at every protest along the I-5 corridor in WA and Oregon.  They are not especially concerned with racial justice.  Some of them have been doing this since WTO in 99 or even before though I’m sure there’s younger people in this loose collection.  Protests are like their Christmas.   There’s a band of them that show up every May 1st like clockwork.  They fancy themselves real hardcore for smashing glass at the Nike store.  I don’t have a lot of sympathy for their ideology or them as individuals.  The  ones  I know personally are generally white men from affluent families.  It's not rare for them to be sexist asses IME.    A number of them did some damage in the ID the other night.  The ID is full of locally owned minority owned businesses who are already on the ropes financially due to Covid.  In the past when local businesses have been affected, the anarchists will try to simultaneously say no regrets/it's all justified and get brownie points for fundraising to help with the damages.  They took a lot of blow back for distracting from immigration protests but they still pretty much keep it up. If I were to go through my hippie high school year book, I could point out a decent handful of these guys.  

ETA:  A lot of them live in and around Eugene and Olympia.  Also, don't get me wrong, some of them talk a big game on race and feminism but when push comes to shove, it's all about them. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

4 hours ago, klmama said:

I learn a lot more about what's actually happening in my city and state by listening to a very partisan local talk radio host than I ever do by reading or watching the news.  Other people on both ends of the political spectrum listen for the same reason.  We can get a very minimal and white-washed version of the news from the "real" journalists, or we can get all the details from talk radio, whether or not we like the opinions expressed.  Many of us would rather know the details, so we can better make our voices heard by those making policy.  

 

I don’t find that to be what usually happens in my little anecdotal experience. What I have seen is a dependance that might as well be expressed as, “Tell me what I think about this.” People who don’t seem to understand it is opinion “news,” who don’t employ critical thinking skills to what they hear on a radio show. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’m not going to debate this, it’s just my .02 as someone who limited my media consumption and exposure long before the current presidency, precisely because I was absolutely tired of being strung along, lied to, and emotionally manipulated for a buck.

Interesting. That’s precisely why I stopped watching tv news, which at the time was usually Fox News. It was a constant barrage of stories of this nature:

”Aren’t you just furious, as we are, that Billy was prohibited from starting a Bible study club at school?

Aren’t you just furious, as we are, that retired Marine, Joe, was prohibited by his condo association from hanging a twenty-foot American flag from his balcony?

Aren’t you just furious, as we are, that Littlestown Elementary School is not allowed to sing ‘Oh, Little Town of Bethlehem’ in the Christmas pageant, but they are allowed to sing, ‘Here Comes Santa Clause”? 

You said it best - it was constant emotional manipulation. 

[Carrie12345]

The biggest emotional manipulation that I’ve encountered has been in interpersonal conversations with the gross overuse of the word “they”.
I’m finding that few people want to specify “the people who are” or “the groups that did” or “the individuals doing.” It seems easier to those people to conflate all types of anti-racist behaviors as the actions of They, which puts all of Them in the category of Bad or, at the very least, suspect.

I live around a lot of I’m Not A Racists, though.
 

[chiguirre]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

I don’t find that to be what usually happens in my little anecdotal experience. What I have seen is a dependance that might as well be expressed as, “Tell me what I think about this.” People who don’t seem to understand it is opinion “news,” who don’t employ critical thinking skills to what they hear on a radio show. 

Yes!!! There's a reason they call themselves Dittoheads.

[Wheres Toto]

In my experience, partisan talk radio only gives the "facts" and details that support their opinions, so in many ways are just as bad, if not worse than the "mainstream" media.  

I watch a variety of media and read a variety of print sources, with different views and biases.  Although, honestly my local news seems to stay fairly neutral and "just the facts" on most things, but they also seem to be at least a week or two behind "news" I've already heard on here.   

[Sneezyone]

SPEAKING OF FACTS...

"FBI 'has no intelligence' indicating antifa was linked to weekend violence in the George Floyd protests, despite Trump and Republicans' claims"

https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-no-intelligence-antifa-weekend-violence-george-floyd-protests-2020-6?fbclid=IwAR0FELDFwW0ILgbyqMErfKklsR4kk4bIDRm4seryXXC8KLvpbnl8LrbBr84

[Pawz4me]

 

[Corraleno]

17 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I have been interested* to see some of the push back that Trump has been getting from various levels of government.  

Here we have the FBI, part of the executive branch, disputing Trump's claims.  Yesterday, it was the DOJ admitting that, despite what the Park Police claimed, Barr did order the clearing of Lafayette Square to allow for the photo opportunity.

We've also seen multiple Governors refuse to send their National Guard, and push back from both the DC and Arlington police forces.  

*There are other adjectives I could use, but I assume they'd be taken as "political".  I'm not very good at keeping my opinions to myself.  

James Miller submitted a scathing letter of resignation to Sec of Defense Mark Esper, accusing him of violating his oath of office and asking him to think very hard before he supports the use of the US military against its own citizens.

Whether in response to the letter or to criticism from other quarters, Esper has now explicitly stated that he opposes the deployment of active duty forces, and many are speculating that he will soon be fired for his "lack of support" of the President's policies. 

[klmama]

4 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Yes!!! There's a reason they call themselves Dittoheads.

I listened to him back when that name was coined.  Many people who called in started by telling him how much they appreciated what he was doing, and it took too much time away from discussing issues, so he said to just say "ditto" and get to the point they wanted to share.  

7 hours ago, Quill said:

That’s precisely why I stopped watching tv news...

...it was constant emotional manipulation. 

I think this is true for most network news today, both via TV or online.  I try to read both Fox's and CNN's websites to get different views on the same story; both are often painfully partisan and, IMHO, manipulative.  I know many people who promote the views presented by one or the other as gospel truth, and it aggravates me.  There's almost always more to the story. 

Our local TV and online news tend to just give snippets, and those usually after the fact.  The local paper gives more detail, but again, mostly after the fact.  That's why local talk radio is important.  Citizens should know in advance when the school board or the city council is considering a major change in policy or large expenditures, so they can make their opinions known; closed-door, late-night voting sessions with no public input isn't okay.  Citizens should know when the state legislature is considering something that will impact them, so they can share their opinions with legislators before the vote.  Citizens should know when there is ongoing gang violence in the schools.  The news should give us all that; since it doesn't, thank goodness for talk radio.  

47 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

I watch a variety of media and read a variety of print sources, with different views and biases.  Although, honestly my local news seems to stay fairly neutral and "just the facts" on most things, but they also seem to be at least a week or two behind "news" I've already heard on here.   

This.  I was just telling one of my adult dc recently that my two best sources for accurate news are a local talk radio show and the WTM board.  

 

[Wheres Toto]

Hmmm, I wonder if the difference is my "local" talk radio is big-shots out of NYC.   So they aren't covering our little local events or legislature stuff.   Even the local radio station that broadcasts from the community college in my county doesn't seem to stick local.   They play mostly music anyway, but do break for news.  

[klmama]

3 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

Hmmm, I wonder if the difference is my "local" talk radio is big-shots out of NYC.   So they aren't covering our little local events or legislature stuff.   Even the local radio station that broadcasts from the community college in my county doesn't seem to stick local.   They play mostly music anyway, but do break for news.  

Our local show deals with national stuff, too, yet the host keeps it "local" by talking with our state's senators or representatives in Washington.  

[Frances]

1 hour ago, klmama said:

Our local TV and online news tend to just give snippets, and those usually after the fact.  The local paper gives more detail, but again, mostly after the fact.  That's why local talk radio is important.  Citizens should know in advance when the school board or the city council is considering a major change in policy or large expenditures, so they can make their opinions known; closed-door, late-night voting sessions with no public input isn't okay.  Citizens should know when the state legislature is considering something that will impact them, so they can share their opinions with legislators before the vote.  Citizens should know when there is ongoing gang violence in the schools.  The news should give us all that; since it doesn't, thank goodness for talk radio.  

This.  I was just telling one of my adult dc recently that my two best sources for accurate news are a local talk radio show and the WTM board.  

 

It must vary considerably by location. Although I live in a large city, we don’t have local TV, so I rely on local newspapers online. All the things you mention I would know about in advance, during, and after from reading these papers. Also, all of our city council and school board meetings are broadcast live on public access TV and can be accessed afterwards and agendas are available online before the meetings. Ditto for all state legislative meetings. We also have neighborhood associations that hold monthly meetings and feature city councilors, mayor, police representatives, etc. giving updates on topics of interest and anyone can request a spot on the agenda. Each of these associations also has volunteers that follow different areas of interest (e.g. parks, historic preservation, land use, etc.) and provide regular updates via meetings, email, and newsletters.

 Recently I was so impressed by a new small, start-up online only newspaper’s coverage of an issue with which we were very involved that I immediately subscribed and have been encouraging others to do the same. I found their coverage of every meeting we attended to be spot on and they also had articles giving me history, related issues, etc, and telling about upcoming events and meetings.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Frances

[TCB]

 

 

 

ETA I’m sorry this probably is not in the scope of what this thread is about. I’ll delete.

Edited June 3, 2020 by TCB

[Corraleno]

Chauvin now charged with 2nd & 3rd degree murder and manslaughter, and the other three are charged with aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder and manslaughter.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Corraleno

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

Chauvin now charged with 2nd, 3rd degree murder and manslaughter, the other four are charged with aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder and manslaughter.

This is what it should have been from the beginning. I’ll be interested to read the supervening indictment to see if he removed the irrelevant BS and included the more relevant facts about how the officer continued his behavior after being informed of distress and advised to stop. That behavior represents intent. Beyond that, this is why local elections matter and prosecutors should NEVER get too comfy with anyone let alone LEOs. It clouds their judgment.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, TCB said:

As much as anything, I think the fact that so many media sources fall into a political side is a huge part of the problem. That is crazy to me. And of course many just read those on their “side” and then that is all you hear and there you are in an echo chamber. I find that just about anything I read on either news media side has a spin or a background agenda to it. I’m pretty dang sick of it. The days of the media seeking only to tell the unvarnished truth seem to be over. I do realize that it is part of human nature to see and probably report things from your worldview, so there’s always been an element of that, but there used to be more honor involved in reporting fairly.

That’s why I think it’s important to find sources you trust and support them financially and one of the reasons I use only print media. There is quite a bit of good information out there about the biases of particular sources and which are the most neutral or center. Given how much media has changed over the years with most now on-line, tons of competition, decreasing revenue, more “opinion” news, more fringe and extreme sites, etc., I I think the only way to effect change is to financially and with views/clicks support those doing a good job. Those making money off of more biased reporting have no incentive to change as long as the money is pouring in.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Chauvin now charged with 2nd & 3rd degree murder and manslaughter, and the other three are charged with aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder and manslaughter.

I’m not sorry for the elevated charges but I wonder about this from a legal standpoint. I don’t know where I ever got this idea but I thought charges stood the same until...not sure when; arraignment, maybe? IOW, procedurally, how does the prosecuting party elevate charges? I’m sure the prosecuting party cannot elevate the charges after arraignment, right? 

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

I’m not sorry for the elevated charges but I wonder about this from a legal standpoint. I don’t know where I ever got this idea but I thought charges stood the same until...not sure when; arraignment, maybe? IOW, procedurally, how does the prosecuting party elevate charges? I’m sure the prosecuting party cannot elevate the charges after arraignment, right? 

I'm not a lawyer, but I think the Complaint is basically just a statement of facts to show probable cause for arrest, and it can be amended. The preliminary complaint was issued before the full autopsy report was released by the ME, and when the final ME report came out it listed the cause of death as homocide, so that could warrant upgraded charges. Chauvin hasn't been indicted yet.

Keith Ellison is a really smart guy, with years of experience as a defense attorney (so he would know exactly what kind of slip-ups and technicalities could be exploited by Chauvin's attorneys). I'm sure he's being meticulously careful in this case, knowing how high the stakes are and that the entire world is watching.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Corraleno

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I'm not a lawyer, but I think the Complaint is basically just a statement of facts to show probable cause for arrest, and it can be amended. The preliminary complaint was issued before the full autopsy report was released by the ME, and when the final ME report came out it listed the cause of death as homocide, so that could warrant upgraded charges. Chauvin hasn't been indicted yet.

Keith Ellison is a really smart guy, with years of experience as a defense attorney (so he would know exactly what kind of slip-ups and technicalities could be exploited by Chauvin's attorneys). I'm sure he's being meticulously careful in this case, knowing how high the stakes are and that the entire world is watching.

It’s not the homicide designation that warrants the charges but the associated facts. Felony murder 2 is, generally, when someone doesn’t start out intending to kill but knows that their felonious behavior can cause another’s death, does it anyway, and homicide occurs during that act. In this instance, the physical assault was the felony. Think of a get away driver for an armed bank robbing crew who wasn’t even there to see the bullets fly. Everyone involved can be charged with felony murder.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Lady Florida.]

3 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 

We have Dish satellite, but the lowest tier so we get no msm news but FOX. It sucks, but it is helpful to see how they lie and manipulate. However, for the past 2 months Dish has been giving us CNN and MSNBC for free, and I find them only a tiny bit more worthwhile than Fox.OAN network, tho, is the lowest of the low. I can’t imagine how stupid you’d have to be to believe their crud.

FSTV and LINK, they’re definitely worth it. They’ve even got great foreign films a couple times/week.

 

We don't have any cable or satellite so we get none of the big all-news stations. I usually go to the CNN and MSNBC websites for their news. You don't get the programs like Anderson Cooper or Rachel Maddow unless you sign in with your provider but they put all their major stories up for free. Just a thought for something you can do if Dish drops them and you still want their perspective. 

We also have the CNN and NBC News apps on our Roku tv but they too limit what we can see without a provider. I find their websites have a good amount of free content though.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s not the homicide designation that warrants the charges but the associated facts. Felony murder 2 is, generally, when someone doesn’t start out intending to kill but knows that their felonious behavior can cause another’s death, does it anyway, and homicide occurs during that act. In this instance, the physical assault was the felony. Think of a get away driver for an armed bank robbing crew who wasn’t even there to see the bullets fly. Everyone involved can be charged with felony murder.

 

There's an interesting legal analysis in this article suggesting that Chauvin would almost certainly have beat the original Murder 3 charge, which would normally apply to things like firing into a crowd or driving a car onto a crowded sidewalk:

“Minnesota courts have repeatedly ruled that to support a charge of Third Degree Murder, the offender’s actions need to be ‘eminently dangerous to more than one person.’ This has been the law in Minnesota since 1896 and includes numerous State Supreme Court decisions stretching all the way to the present saying the same thing.”

Since Chauvin's actions were entirely directed at a single person, and did not endanger anyone else at the scene, legal experts argue that he would not have been convicted on the 3rd degree murder charge. Which raises some disturbing questions about whether the county prosecutor (Freeman) was intentionally torpedoing the case by filing a murder charge to mollify the protestors knowing Chauvin would not be convicted. If Chauvin was only convicted on the lesser charge of 2nd degree manslaughter, he'd be unlikely to get more than 5 years. If he's convicted of 2nd degree murder, as charged in the amended complaint, the maximum sentence could be 38-40 years (different articles list different maximums). And the other three officers, who were not charged at all by Freeman, will be facing the same sentences if convicted on both counts of aiding & abetting. 

This is why ALL criminal prosecutions involving cops need to be handled by independent prosecutors, and not local prosecutors who are funded by police unions. 🤬

ETA: all four officers now in custody, with bail set at $1 million each

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Corraleno

[Sneezyone]

28 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

There's an interesting legal analysis in this article suggesting that Chauvin would almost certainly have beat the original Murder 3 charge, which would normally apply to things like firing into a crowd or driving a car onto a crowded sidewalk:

“Minnesota courts have repeatedly ruled that to support a charge of Third Degree Murder, the offender’s actions need to be ‘eminently dangerous to more than one person.’ This has been the law in Minnesota since 1896 and includes numerous State Supreme Court decisions stretching all the way to the present saying the same thing.”

Since Chauvin's actions were entirely directed at a single person, and did not endanger anyone else at the scene, legal experts argue that he would not have been convicted on the 3rd degree murder charge. Which raises some disturbing questions about whether the county prosecutor (Freeman) was intentionally torpedoing the case by filing a murder charge to mollify the protestors knowing Chauvin would not be convicted. If Chauvin was only convicted on the lesser charge of 2nd degree manslaughter, he'd be unlikely to get more than 5 years. If he's convicted of 2nd degree murder, as charged in the amended complaint, the maximum sentence could be 38-40 years (different articles list different maximums). And the other three officers, who were not charged at all by Freeman, will be facing the same sentences if convicted on both counts of aiding & abetting. 

This is why ALL criminal prosecutions involving cops need to be handled by independent prosecutors, and not local prosecutors who are funded by police unions. 🤬

ETA: all four officers now in custody, with bail set at $1 million each

 

Oh, there’s no doubt in my mind that the initial complaint was shady AF. Ellison went out of his way to praise the Hennepin DA as helpful today, which is kind. Freeman is the only MN DA to get a murder conviction on a cop but the cop was not white and the victim was a white woman from an allied nation. IJS. No profile in courage there. His original complaint was straight trash. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://time.com/5847883/george-floyd-autopsy-covid-19-coronavirus/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=u.s._justice&linkId=90091466
 

@Pen

[Scarlett]

15 minutes ago, Plum said:

Wow. I knew two of the officers in MN were rookies, but I had no idea just how new to the job they were. It's their 4th day on patrol and Chauvin is their training officer. What should they do when their superior training officer does everything opposite of what they have been trained to do? Chauvin refused the hobble ties and ignored questions about turning him on his side.

I do think they need to go to trial and hopefully all of the ugly flaws in the system will come out. Realistically, I don't think those two rookies will get a large amount of time, if any. It seems to me they have a valid defense. That also explains why there weren't charges for them right away.

 

I had no idea either.  That makes me so sad.

[Pawz4me]

Chauvin had what . . .18? . . .complaints filed against him. And he was a training officer??? These two things do not compute for me.

[Paige]

45 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Chauvin had what . . .18? . . .complaints filed against him. And he was a training officer??? These two things do not compute for me.

And this illustrates why it's a systemic problem and not an individual bad actor problem.

[Sneezyone]

They had four days as fully qualified officers, not four days of experience. I would also remind everyone that ‘just following orders’ has been an inadequate defense since Nuremberg.
 

“Gray and Kueng’s defense attorney, Tom Plunkett, asked the court for lower bail, saying their clientshad been police officers for just four days when Floyd was killed. Police records indicate that while the men were rookies, they had more experience than a handful of days on the force. According to their records, they joined the department in February 2019 and became full officers in December. Minneapolis officers must serve a year on probation and spend time in field training with a more senior officer before they are fully qualified.”

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Joker]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They had four days as fully qualified officers, not four days of experience. I would also remind everyone that ‘just following orders’ has been an inadequate defense since Nuremberg.
 

“Gray and Kueng’s defense attorney, Tom Plunkett, asked the court for lower bail, saying their clientshad been police officers for just four days when Floyd was killed. Police records indicate that while the men were rookies, they had more experience than a handful of days on the force. According to their records, they joined the department in February 2019 and became full officers in December. Minneapolis officers must serve a year on probation and spend time in field training with a more senior officer before they are fully qualified.”

Yes. It gave me pause at first but only for a moment. We need to stop allowing cops to just watch this stuff happen but do nothing. That feeling for me is even stronger after seeing the horrible NY video of them pushing down the elderly man and then just walking past as he bleeds. Maybe if we start holding them accountable for not stopping their fellow officers from committing crimes things will change.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Chauvin had what . . .18? . . .complaints filed against him. And he was a training officer??? These two things do not compute for me.

Thao also had multiple complaints, and the city settled an excessive force lawsuit against Thao and another officer who seriously beat a black man they had arrested without cause, after lying that they had a warrant for his arrest. The man, Lamar Ferguson, had bruises and contusions and several teeth knocked out. Ferguson also claimed when they left the hospital, Thao and the other officer threw his discharge papers and pain meds in the trash.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Corraleno

[Joker]

Did you all see that over 50 Buffalo officers resigned supposedly because two were suspended for knocking the elderly man down? If anyone has ever questioned that we have a big freaking problem, they shouldn’t anymore. 
 

I’m seeing now they actually keep their jobs but resigned from the emergency response team. I hope they can be fired.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Joker

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Joker said:

Did you all see that over 50 Buffalo officers resigned supposedly because two were suspended for knocking the elderly man down? If anyone has ever questioned that we have a big freaking problem, they shouldn’t anymore. 

Looks like it was the entire Buffalo Emergency Response Team (riot police). Good. If they think that a brief suspension for nearly killing a 75 year old man is too harsh, then they did the city of Buffalo a big favor.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

I agree police need to be able to freely speak up when other officers do something against their code of ethics. I do hope they do just that at the trial and drag out all of the dirty laundry the Minneapolis PD has been hiding for everyone to see. That’s one way we are going to be able to move forward and create change. 

 

It doesn’t work for soldiers but could it work for them in a criminal court with a jury? 

One thing that makes me consider that  “only following orders” may be a valid defense; especially if they burn the house down in the process, is that the MN police officers that arrested the CNN reporter on live tv also said they were following orders.
When upper management is so egregiously lacking ethics and forethought, 2 rookie cops aren’t going to be able make enough noise against their senior officer who really shouldn’t be supervising anyone.  
FTR I’m not excusing their behavior. They knew the training. They knew what should have been done. They even said it. They had plenty of time to get some balls and push Chauvin off if necessary. It’s obvious the entire MN police have systemic issues that need to be addressed. These guys are a result of that. 

 

I hope not. It depends on how the case is argued. IMO, people arguing these cases do not call upon history or draw meaningful parallels because they either don't see them or don't truly believe in the case enough to be a dogged advocate. As the AG said, these cases are generally UNDER-prosecuted b/c local prosecutors have dueling loyalties--to the LEO community (for votes and cooperation) and to the law they are sworn to uphold. They end up doing a half-assed job as a result. I do not believe that Mr. Ellison will make that mistake. Whatever they say now, in that moment, the three young officers had more power than that one supervisor. They may not have felt empowered but the power was still theirs for the taking. We cannot be handing over military grade weaponry, allowing LEOs to run around declaring us combatants, and then say they should not be held to the same standard as our military.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Joker said:

Did you all see that over 50 Buffalo officers resigned supposedly because two were suspended for knocking the elderly man down? If anyone has ever questioned that we have a big freaking problem, they shouldn’t anymore. 
 

I’m seeing now they actually keep their jobs but resigned from the emergency response team. I hope they can be fired.

So apparently this was the UNION's doing. They were so pissed off about the two officers being disciplined that they forced the entire Emergency Response Team to resign, whether they wanted to or not, by declaring they would no longer pay any legal fees for ERT personnel if they were sued or criminally charged.

Police unions are one of THE biggest deterrents to police reform in this country. Even on the rare occasion that abusive cops are fired, many, if not most, get their jobs back through the union. And if any prosecutor dares to file criminal charges, the union will make sure that prosecutor is defeated in the next election and replaced by someone "friendlier." Limiting the power of unions is really Step 1 in police reform.

[Sneezyone]

46 minutes ago, StellaM said:

You surely mean 'limiting the power of the police union', or 'reforming unions', not 'limiting the power of unions'? 

To suggest that unions in general should be weakened is profoundly anti-working class.

 

I hear what you're saying. Fundamentally, however, police unions in the U.S. do not function to assist the 'working class'. They actively work to distinguish themselves from every other union that DOES work to support the 'working class'. When states have enacted right to work legislation and banned public sector unions of teachers and state employees, they specifically exempt LEO unions. Police are well-paid and considered 'professionals'. Their unions are profoundly anti-democratic. I am not sure how to get at the problems these 'federations' and 'fraternal orders' (the name says it all) cause. They really do operate more like fraternities than unions. Whenever city councils try to negotiate more public-friendly and accountability-friendly contracts, they threaten to quit and/or engage in work slowdowns which leave communities without any services at all. It's almost like a protection racket.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Joker]

I feel down a police union rabbit hole this afternoon and it is ugly. I seriously can’t believe how toxic and harmful they have been allowed to be. They are not your regular labor unions and something seriously needs to happen and very soon.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

You surely mean 'limiting the power of the police union', or 'reforming unions', not 'limiting the power of unions'? 

To suggest that unions in general should be weakened is profoundly anti-working class.

Yes, obviously I was talking about limiting the power of police unions in a post about police unions and the way police unions thwart all attempts at police reform. I don't think limiting the power of teachers unions or autoworker unions would have any effect on police reform, let alone be "step 1."

Edited June 6, 2020 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

52 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Jeez, how hard is it to say,  what I meant and didn't say was 'reform of a corrupt, racist police union'.

Because that's NOT what I meant to say. I said exactly what I meant to say: their powers need to be limited. Your attempts at "correcting" my speech show that you do not understand what the issue is.

The problem isn't that unions are full of corrupt racists who flout the rules in order to illegally protect bad cops, prevent them from being fired, hide their records from the public, and ensure that prosecutors don't file charges. The problem is that their contracts give them the power to do those things. You could fire every racist in every police union in the country, but if the union still has the legal power to do those things, then nothing will change. Every plan for police reform includes limiting those powers, such as eliminating the right of unions to expunge disciplinary records and requiring that the records be, at the very least, available to citizen oversight committees, if not the public; reducing the restrictions they can impose on investigators' rights to question police about abusive behavior; reduce their ability to force reinstatement of fired officers, etc. There are legal issues with preventing unions from funding the elections of prosecutors they know will not prosecute cops, so the alternative solution to that is to require that all cases involving police be referred to an independent prosecutor. Not surprisingly, police unions have fought back against every attempt to reduce those powers.

[JustEm]

21 hours ago, Corraleno said:

So apparently this was the UNION's doing. They were so pissed off about the two officers being disciplined that they forced the entire Emergency Response Team to resign, whether they wanted to or not, by declaring they would no longer pay any legal fees for ERT personnel if they were sued or criminally charged.

Police unions are one of THE biggest deterrents to police reform in this country. Even on the rare occasion that abusive cops are fired, many, if not most, get their jobs back through the union. And if any prosecutor dares to file criminal charges, the union will make sure that prosecutor is defeated in the next election and replaced by someone "friendlier." Limiting the power of unions is really Step 1 in police reform.

 

Do you have a source for this because I can't find one and want to send it to a friend

 

Edit: nevermind found one

Edited June 6, 2020 by hjffkj

[Corraleno]

The two cops who shoved the 75 yr old man (who is still hospitalized in serious condition) have now been charged with 2nd degree assault. The head of the union called the charges "outrageous" and "a travesty."