P*rn and marriage CHRISTIAN CONTENT (huge trigger warning)

[DawnM]

Ok, this is apparently a much hotter topic than I realized.  I mean, the basic idea of p*rn is that it is a sin in the Christian community.  It is also degrading to women, etc.....I get all of that.

But this article takes it to the level of "if he doesn't stop, you should leave him, period!"   

I am going to admit, I haven't had to deal with this issue in my marriage, so maybe I am just naive, but is this the same as cheating?  The article also makes comments that m*sterb*tion is cheating.  I am not so sure I agree with everything in this article, but please give your perspective and help me think it through.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT CHILD P*RN.....that is a whole different animal IMO.

Please read the article before responding.  

https://www.blazinggrace.org/wife-must-confront-husband/?fbclid=IwAR1ocPPLi3vesEc7ikiRj64m7Uoo17mCa79Y1O-QpEHIjnQu1DBTm-X2Ca0

[alisoncooks]

...

Edited March 3, 2020 by alisoncooks

[Ottakee]

Well, you can read my story here.  Here is the back story...first post

My ex-husband didn't start out where he ended up.  I had no idea until things blew up.  Looking back, yes there were signs....but all ones that could easily be explained away or not recognized until I had 20/20 hindsight.

I am in the camp that the wife needs to leave....or better yet, the husband needs to leave, IF this is an issue that he refuses to get good, competent, Biblical, accountable help for.  I do think that marriages can be saved but not when the offender is not willing to change, do the work required, and keeps blaming the non offending spouse.  Sadly, I think that churches far too often sweep these things under the rug so as to protect their image.

As to it involving children, it most likely doesn't start that way, but in many cases, continued usage leads to that and/or the more violent forms.

It is not loving to let someone continue in sin and destructive behavior and let their behavior continue and harm you.

[DesertBlossom]

I do think p0rn is harmful, both to the individual and the marriage, not to mention the women being exploited. However, it's the husband's attitude in this story that is more alarming. He is blaming her for his p0rn problem. I would bet he also doesn't feel any accountability for any other bad behavior. He sounds like a jerk. And with a completely unrepentant attitude, their marriage is unlikely to recover. Maybe years of porn use has hardened him, or maybe his selfish entitled attitude is what first led him to p0rn. But either way I couldn't be married to a man like that.

[Terabith]

I don’t like porn.  It bothers me at an existential level, and I worry about exploitation.  I definitely don’t see m*sturbation as a sin or even problematic.  I’m pretty sure my husband and I have a really good, solid marriage, but I’m pretty sure he uses p*rn.  And I’m inclined to believe him about pretty much all men doing so.  I don’t think it has been problematic for our marriage, but we may not be typical.  It bothers me a little but not a lot. I don’t think of it as cheating at all. We are not conservative Christians.  

[JustEm]

Porn was a deal breaker for me when we were talking marriage just as me using illegal drugs was for him. We both agreed that as long as we were married to one another we would respect the other's wishes in regards to them. Dh's view with porn was he would be silly to pick it over the woman he loved. And that is how I viewed my decision to smoke weed. 

so, if dh were to decide to disregard our original agreement without consulting me I would view it as a huge breach of trust and would view our marriage to be in jeopardy. If he continued the use then I don't know how I would be able to continue a marriage with him. I wouldn't view it as cheating. My issue is the exploitation of women and I couldn't be with a man who was ok participating it something like that.

I have no problem with masterbation.

Edited March 1, 2020 by hjffkj

[Storygirl]

I have a very good friend who left her husband for this reason. Well... because of the issues surrounding it. He would sometimes agree to go to couples counseling and would make promises, but then he would not keep them. He would not try to change. He would lie. He would promise to get individual counseling but then would not do it. He did not show any inclination to work or fight to stay in the marriage. She felt abandoned and unloved.

There may be more to it that she didn't share with me. But it had a huge impact on their marriage, and she decided that she could not stay in it.

She was criticized heavily by some Christian friends, which was an additional hurtful blow. Although he damaged the marriage, she was seen as the villain when she sought divorce. She had trouble finding Christian counseling that was not critical of the divorce decision, so she felt alone.

Porn can be a great betrayal. I do know of situations where couples were able to work through it. I imagine a lot of couples have, because the problem is common, unfortunately.

I was sad that my friend left her marriage and was not sure that was the Biblical decision, but I decided not to tell her that and just became a person she knew would listen. I knew she was getting the other message from other people.

The truth is that he left their marriage emotionally. She is just the one who made it official. He was comfortable with things the way they were and would not have moved out if she had not given an ultimatum. He did not value her as much as he valued seeking his own pleasure (I realize it can be an addiction, but this is the way the addiction affected their relationship).

[Liz CA]

Latest research (and it's obviously ongoing) has shown that this kind of behavior is similar to other addiction - substance or behavioral. In fact, it is now classified as an addiction. Therefore the responses of the limbic system (brain) are similar, dopamine cycle and all that.

So similar to other addictions, what satisfied yesterday is not enough anymore today or tomorrow. It has to escalate to have the same effect. Many people go from screen / paper images to prostitutes, (those kind of) massage parlors, violent encounters, children, etc. 

There are other astonishing facts that I had never thought about prior to studying this about 7-10 years ago and since. Studies have now shown that men can become impotent - that means they may use this kind of behavior to satisfy urges but are becoming increasingly unable to perform in real life. This could have far reaching consequences as such a high percentage of young men are engaged in this (of course also older men even if some people think it unlikely).  Some psychologists have raised the question of young men being unable to bond with a real life woman, maintain a relationship and even start a family.

The addictive component is fairly easy to identify. A man can get "all he thinks he needs" from an image that makes no demands on him. This imaginary person looks like she thinks he is the hottest thing around, she does not ask him to put the toilet seat down, take care of the children, hold down a job, etc. In his mind, he gets all the good stuff without having to give anything. That is pretty tempting.

 

[Liz CA]

Trying not to quote...what Storygirl said is so true and so sad. Many Christians do not understand the nature of this behavior.

About ten years ago, New Life Live (Christian orientation) has started workshops as well as a book titled "Every Man's Battle." I have not reviewed the entire material but have heard good things about it. Another very good resource is a book by Sherri Keffer "Intimate Deception." This is geared toward the women who have experienced betrayal, any kind.

As always, I think divorce is the last resort. There is a lot of things that can be done before it comes to that, however, willingness to engage in the process is necessary.

[GoodGrief]

I do think it changes brains.

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

Latest research (and it's obviously ongoing) has shown that this kind of behavior is similar to other addiction - substance or behavioral. In fact, it is now classified as an addiction. Therefore the responses of the limbic system (brain) are similar, dopamine cycle and all that.

 

 

there was one guy who overcame his addiction to cocaine as well as p*rn, who said it was easier to stop the cocaine.  p*rn serious messes up brain chemistry.

[Chris in VA]

Just want to say it is important to remember that there are females who use p also, and I don't mean just "romance novels" I mean the hardcore  stuff, and it changes their brains, interfers w relationships and is addicting, just like for males. 

[ktgrok]

I think the bigger thing is that if a wife feels strongly about it, and a man is willing to say "whatever, I don't care if it upsets you I'm going to do what I want" there are major issues in that marriage that go beyond sex/porn/etc. 

So yeah, if a spouse would disregard my strong feelings on ANYTHING like that, but especially that kind of thing, it would be a huge problem. 

I feel that way about strip clubs - I know some women are fine with them but I am not. At all . Not even a tiny bit. And although my DH doesn't quite understand my position, he respects it and me and therefore will not go to them even if it is a big guys night outing or whatever, didn't go to one for his bachelor party, etc. 

[BusyMom5]

I dont like P, but I would hate to see an *otherwise* happy, healthy relationship end bc of it.  I feel like for every story like this,  there is much more to it than the use of P.  I do look at it more like a video game addiction- such as the husband prefers the video game and gaming online to interacting with the people in his life- wife, kids, family and friends.  The issue is probably not as much with the P or the video game, it's how and why the husband is choosing the behavior, and how it affects his behavior. 

If the husband occasionally watched it, casually,  but otherwise was attuned to his wife and family, then I think choosing to divorce would be taking a wrong, and making another wrong.  2 wrongs dont make a right!  I also feel like a good husband would want to listen to his wife and her feelings.  

When it comes to relationships,  there is usually a lot more going on than what we see or read posted online.  Maybe the wife was hard to live with and the husband checked out long ago.  Maybe she manipulates him and he feels trapped, so hes trying to escape  (not that this makes it right).  My point is that we never really know everything going on.  I've watched couples who look perfect hide what I feel is marital rape.  The abuser turned the church against the wife when she left- bc divorce is "wrong".  Pretty sure the DH in that one was watching messed up stuff.  I learned never to try to judge an issue in another person's relationship.   

[DawnM]

So, is it cheating?  Is p*orn cheating?  Is that always true?  Is m*sterb*tion cheating?

Again, I don't have this issue, so maybe I am just Pollyanna about all of it.

[DesertBlossom]

23 minutes ago, DawnM said:

So, is it cheating?  Is p*orn cheating?  Is that always true?  Is m*sterb*tion cheating?

Again, I don't have this issue, so maybe I am just Pollyanna about all of it.

I don't think it's exactly the same as physical cheating. But I think it can be equally damaging to a relationship. As mentioned upthread, if p0rn escalates it will damage the intimate relationship between the couple, and I think that's why it's so serious. 

I don't think m-tion is anywhere on the same level either, however if one person is meeting their own needs in a way that hinders marital intimacy, that's not good either. I don't think there's a black and white answer to any of this. But you have to look at how things are affecting you personally and how they are affecting your marriage. 

[JustEm]

56 minutes ago, DawnM said:

So, is it cheating?  Is p*orn cheating?  Is that always true?  Is m*sterb*tion cheating?

Again, I don't have this issue, so maybe I am just Pollyanna about all of it.

I wouldn't consider either cheating. But I imagine their are people who would feel they are in their marriage. What is considered cheating is subjective.

[Katy]

If you take Jesus's words seriously, lust is adultery.

I don't know that adultery always has to lead to divorce, but it is certainly biblical grounds for divorce.  And when it comes to addiction, it wrecks marriages.  It's one thing if a spouse doesn't mind, it's another when they do mind and all the sexual energy is directed at a video on a phone rather than at the spouse.  And when a person man is that addicted to porn, they often have issues with impotence that make the act of marriage impossible to complete with their spouse.

I know of multiple marriages where the woman waited until the wedding night and had no idea that the reason her fiance was fine with that was because he had a porn addiction and they would never be able to have a healthy sex life, but he would have NO TROUBLE WHATSOEVER actually cheating with prostitutes.

Plenty of people don't have a problem with it and even enjoy it together, but I don't think that is a Christian position.

[Scarlett]

I don't think either are grounds for a scriptural divorce/remarriage, and I would never tell someone they MUST divorce over either....but I can tell you right now that *I* will never tolerate it again.  The P*rn is just a destructive addiction and unless a person sees it that way and wants to stop/proves they will or have stopped....nah.  I'm just done.  

Edited July 29, 2020 by Scarlett

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

So, is it cheating?  Is p*orn cheating?  Is that always true?  Is m*sterb*tion cheating?

Again, I don't have this issue, so maybe I am just Pollyanna about all of it.

 

Ask yourself how you would feel if you discovered porn usage /addiction? For some women it feels very close to cheating, others view it in a different frame - it's a subjective issue.

I don't classify it in the same category as a real life affair, however, it often leads to abuse of real life women - potentially even worse. Real life affairs have often quite different dynamics at their core than porn. When you think of masturbation, are you thinking of it in connection with porn or not? Again, potentially two different things.

[Pam in CT]

11 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Well, you can read my story here.  Here is the back story...first post

My ex-husband didn't start out where he ended up.  I had no idea until things blew up.  Looking back, yes there were signs....but all ones that could easily be explained away or not recognized until I had 20/20 hindsight.

I am in the camp that the wife needs to leave....or better yet, the husband needs to leave, IF this is an issue that he refuses to get good, competent, Biblical, accountable help for.  I do think that marriages can be saved but not when the offender is not willing to change, do the work required, and keeps blaming the non offending spouse.  Sadly, I think that churches far too often sweep these things under the rug so as to protect their image.

As to it involving children, it most likely doesn't start that way, but in many cases, continued usage leads to that and/or the more violent forms.

It is not loving to let someone continue in sin and destructive behavior and let their behavior continue and harm you.

 

Ottakee.  Your blog is...   staggering.  

 

Thank you for linking it here. Thank you for doing it. Thank you for *continuing* to to do it.  It is a gift.  

[WendyLady]

I have a friend who's daughter and husband, a young couple, has been really wounded by p*rn.  They are a religious couple and married young. He had struggled with p*rn when he was younger, but thought he had overcome it. Unfortunately, when stressful moments happened after they married, he began to turn back to his bad habit.  It broke her heart and it was so humiliating to her.  She felt like while she was trying to learn about how everything works, he was comparing her to the images/sounds/videos he watched. He has felt powerless to his addiction.  They have worked with counselors and sometimes things are good but they are struggling.  It may not be an affair, but it is betrayal in it's own way.  P*rn is in your phone in your pocket at all times, it is hard to escape the pull.  When I read stories about older couples struggling, it can seem like not such a big deal, but when I think of these young kids with so much hope for the future, but burned by p*rn, it seems like such a huge terrible life altering thing.  

[Ottakee]

4 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

 

Ottakee.  Your blog is...   staggering.  

 

Thank you for linking it here. Thank you for doing it. Thank you for *continuing* to to do it.  It is a gift.  

Thank you for your kind words.  I didn't want any other woman out there to feel all alone.  Some posts seem to flow, others are just random thoughts strung together, but hopefully they can be helpful for others in similar situations.

[OH_Homeschooler]

15 hours ago, Liz CA said:

Ask yourself how you would feel if you discovered porn usage /addiction? For some women it feels very close to cheating, others view it in a different frame - it's a subjective issue.

 

 

You are so right that it's subjective. I actually had a different reaction to discovering it in two different (dating) relationships. One made me really upset. We were in a long-term relationship and he never seemed that into it before. So discovering it was a shock. 

With the other, it didn't bug me. I knew he had a very healthy libido, and we weren't dating that long. It just didn't feel like a betrayal like the first one did. 

I got divorced last year. I now have absolutely no tolerance for secrets and lies. If I "discovered" porn use by a (hypothetical) mate, it would bug me.

[bolt.]

To me, the choice to engage with the pornography industry is -- in one way of looking at it -- far worse than many forms of "cheating".

If a husband falls 'in love' with a real human person, and s/he with him, and together they choose to begin a romantic or sexual relationship -- that's a deep betrayal of their spouse(s) and it basically ends a marriage full stop. If a marriage wants to continue after an event like that, it's basically got to be re-started from scratch. However, to me, that's a very "sucks to be human" event. Repent, end the marriage or end the affair, and move on. It's not nothing, but it's not dark-core-evil stuff.

Porn production and participation *is* dark-core-evil stuff. The husband is not in love. He's not overwhelmed by warm feelings for a real person. The husband is *paying* the agents of *organized crime* to traffic, exploit, addict, confine, coerce, and assault real human women... and send him the images. Hundreds of actual people are irreparably harmed by each consumer-of-porn's choice to be a consumer-of-porn.

The harm is not mainly in the fact that he is aroused and/or satisfied by someone other than his wife. The problem is that he is aroused and/or satisfied by someone who is being harmed for his pleasure. That's not something that can be tolerated as Christian conduct. So, yeah, it stands to reason that if a person should lose their marriage if/when they fall in love and act to establish a new relationship on the side... then, obviously, people should be losing their marriages over this dark evil sexual activity of using technology to participate in and enjoy the sexual suffering of women he doesn't even know. That's not a "sucks to be human" mistake. It's willfully ignoring the humanity of real people during a sexual act -- deeply inhumane.

[Murphy101]

Yes, porn and strip clubs and so forth are sin and adultery.  For many it's also what they do before they end up using prostitutes or other sugar daddy situations.  It's all just forms of prostitution.

He is performing a sex act with someone not his wife.  In these cases, he isn't even doing it because he develops feelings for someone else.  He is just doing it because he wants to and they are just women.  He may tell himself he is helping women bc they need the money or how nice they are to help men like him.  It's all bs rationalizing to suit his own wants.

Same goes for women using men in this manner.

I thought so before I became Christian and my views haven't changed.

That some women convince themselves it's okay for whatever reason doesn't make it okay.  Denial is real.

As for what women say they think?  It tends to evaporate when the reality of seeing pics on their husbands phone.happens.  Suddenly it's not so okay anymore.  But most of those women won't leave him for it.  More men do leave their wives in similiar scenarios though.  So ponder that little fact when men say it means nothing.  It's bs and they know it.

[Murphy101]

As for minors used in this way.

The bottom line is there is ZERO way to know if minors are being used this way.  There are a LOT of very young people who could pass for early 20s.  I guess the guy could literally be looking for old hag porn, which might get him some gal that looks 30 year old, a whole other topic.  But  there's no such thing as a reputable porn site where it's possible to be sure the women are not minors or not being abused or exploited in some manner.  For one thing, the number of addicts who are used for sex exploitation says a lot about how bad off a person mentaly has to be to convince themselves to do this without looking an emotional wreck.  And this adds to the age issue.  Addicts tend to not age well.  They can look a lot older than they are, complete with wrinkles and such by 20.  So if someone has looked at porn, the chances that it wasn't porn with minors are slim even if they weren't looking for kiddie porn.  The numbers are just staggering and nauseating.

[Momto6inIN]

Strip clubs and p*rn are sin, period. M*tion to p*rn is sin also, period.

M*tion otherwise is a little murkier, imo. Depends on the motivation.  Is this a man who is fantasizing about someone other than his wife or who is using it to avoid real s*x? Then yes, probably, because s*x was designed by God to be shared between a husband and a wife, not as a selfish act of self satisfaction. But for a man whose wife is, say, recovering from childbirth or a debilitating illness, or who is giving a sample for infertility treatments, then I'd say no.

[ktgrok]

20 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

Strip clubs and p*rn are sin, period. M*tion to p*rn is sin also, period.

M*tion otherwise is a little murkier, imo. Depends on the motivation.  Is this a man who is fantasizing about someone other than his wife or who is using it to avoid real s*x? Then yes, probably, because s*x was designed by God to be shared between a husband and a wife, not as a selfish act of self satisfaction. But for a man whose wife is, say, recovering from childbirth or a debilitating illness, or who is giving a sample for infertility treatments, then I'd say no.

Agreed.

And even then, if it is either effecting sexual intimacy, OR the wife finds it upsetting, it should stop. 

Personally, if it happens because say, spouse isn't around, and no porn/mental adultery is involved, I'm not worked up about it in an otherwise healthy marriage. But if someone is turning down mutual intimacy in favor of self satisfaction, that's a problem. And if someone is willing to do it despite knowing it upsets their spouse greatly, that's a problem. Both are selfish. And selfishness is a sin, not to mention it can destroy relationships. 

[Momto6inIN]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

And selfishness is a sin

X 1000

[alisoncooks]

Troll reported

[TravelingChris]

On 3/1/2020 at 10:04 AM, Ottakee said:

Well, you can read my story here.  Here is the back story...first post

My ex-husband didn't start out where he ended up.  I had no idea until things blew up.  Looking back, yes there were signs....but all ones that could easily be explained away or not recognized until I had 20/20 hindsight.

I am in the camp that the wife needs to leave....or better yet, the husband needs to leave, IF this is an issue that he refuses to get good, competent, Biblical, accountable help for.  I do think that marriages can be saved but not when the offender is not willing to change, do the work required, and keeps blaming the non offending spouse.  Sadly, I think that churches far too often sweep these things under the rug so as to protect their image.

As to it involving children, it most likely doesn't start that way, but in many cases, continued usage leads to that and/or the more violent forms.

It is not loving to let someone continue in sin and destructive behavior and let their behavior continue and harm you.

THIS,

And as to your second point,  in the mid 2000s, I lived in Europe and was involved with PWOC (Protestant Women of the Chapel). We had a large all Europe Conference in Germany and lots of speakers came.  I can't remember what anyone else said but the one speaker I can still remember is an Army Chaplain who talked about how huge a problem porn is in the pastoral community.  He mentioned how he was newly stationed at a remote base and had to run some electrical wires and move furniture and he found a huge stash of very disturbing porn stuff -more than Playboy material.  But that wasn't his only experience.  He had had many chaplains confess too and apparently, some pastoral magazines have addressed the issue.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Zombie thread

[KidsHappen]

9 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Zombie thread

Yes, but imagine that poor man's disappointment when he typed in p*rn and ended up here. 😄

[Excelsior! Academy]

I do believe it is adultery. bolt. explained it very well, so I won't repeat what was said.  I will also add asking for forgiveness without a change in behavior is manipulation.  A man who is caught, especially one who didn't confess due to a guilty conscience, and blames or gives lip service then continues is just manipulating.  If that is the case get out!  It might wake him up and it might not, but he will not change until he is ready.  You do not need to stick around for that.