S/o International people views on Americans

[Lucy the Valiant]

3 minutes ago, annegables said:

YES!!! The book I referenced above, The Culture Map, goes into how often communication gets messed up quickly between cultures because of different styles of communication. This is not because "Americans are____", but because every culture has different communication styles, and if you are trying to communicate effectively with people from other contexts, it works best to at least understand the basics of how communication styles differ. If one has lived in only one culture, it is hard to realize how cultural communication is. 

Even with my FOO vs my DH's, we need to put on our "talking with X" manners. Not because either family is better or worse, but in order to effectively communicate without giving unintentional offense, it is best to understand the situation going in.

 

Another really fascinating read is Foreign to Familiar - she (loosely) categorizes cultures into "hot / cold climate" cultures. Rock solid practical advice on how NOT to offend the "other" culture while TRYING to be polite. 

[Garga]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Okay, so people really do that snap the fingers at waiters thing?

I thought that was something only Richard Gere could do when he was playing a zillionaire in the movies.

I’ve never seen it, ever, and would be aghast if I did.  I hate trying to get the waiter’s attention as it feels so pushy no matter how you do it.  I just stare at them until they glance my way and raise my eyebrows and smile and lift my finger a tiny bit.  I’m sure I’d be terrible at hailing a cab.  😄

———-

My parents are Americans who lived in England when I was small, in the late 70s.  They said they constantly (constantly) were curbing what they said so as not to offend.  

An example of when they failed to curb what they said: They held a little bible study in their home. One night the local antique dealer was the last to arrive.  He was that stereotypical antique dealer type of person—thin with a bow tie and always rather serious.  There were no chairs left by the time he arrived, so my dad said, “Well, Andrew, I guess you have the hot seat tonight!” and pointed at the rug.  It wasn’t meant to be mean.  It was just a mild (to my parents) joke and honestly, my dad would have sat on the rug, but Andrew was incredibly offended and said something like, “Well, I never!” and turned right around and walked out.  

Whoops.  

Another time, my dad also referred to the tv as the “boob tube” which was a common slang term back then (though maybe only in the US), and he completely horrified some women who were in the room with him. 

My parents have pretty big senses of humor and they said they simply could not show their humor, pretty much ever, because it was constantly being misunderstood. 

I suppose the AU boardies are feeling that way toward the US boardies: that their humor is completely misunderstood.

——-

Some of the stories on this thread have made me feel a little unsettled:  Particularly all those stories from the beginning of the thread where Americans traveled abroad and other people were “shocked I was an American.”  So, if you’re a decent person, people are shocked that you’re an American, which has the subtext that decent people can’t possibly nasty ol’ Americans? That was a bit difficult to read. Ouch. Maybe like when people are bad-mouthing homeschoolers in front of you and they say, “Well, not YOU of course...” but you wonder if behind your back, they absolutely do mean you.

———

I wonder if I come across as an overconfident American?  I wonder what that exactly looks like?  Unless “overconfident” is just code for “obnoxious”, and then I understand exactly what is meant by it.  A friend of mine once gave me the book “Assertiveness for Dummies” because she didn’t think I was assertive enough.  But I wonder if someone non-American would think I am assertive.  

I’m very curious about the “Americans are too confident” statements, and what that looks like to others.  Then again...my mother said that she missed the “assertive” American men when she lived in the UK.  Don’t get me wrong, she doesn’t like aggressive jerk men, but she said she missed that American trope of the rugged Montana mountain man riding around on his horse, and the British men were soooo not like that and she missed being around that kind of man.  So...maybe that’s a sort of example of “confident” Americans?  To Americans it’s valued and to others it’s too over the top?

(And of course, those stories about my parents in the UK in the 70s are 40 years outdated!  But this thread reminded me of them.)

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Garga

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t think border area USA Americans and Canadians do tend to get on each other’s nerves.    Can’t speak to Australia/New Zealand nerves. 

 

 

After 5 years living near the US and Canadian border, I'd say that Americans definitely got on the nerves of Toronto residents. Or at least, *I* got on the nerves of Toronto residents. 😛 

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Dude. You should've gone!

I considered it, and would have if it came with guarantees that it would only be a year or two, but these things can take on a life of their own and I couldn't risk an open-ended stay. Dh was also just beginning his transition away from that type of work and this would have only sucked him in further.  I don't regret how the big picture turned out, but I do know we missed out on a cool life experience by opting out.

[SKL]

26 minutes ago, Garga said:

Some of the stories on this thread have made me feel a little unsettled:  Particularly all those stories from the beginning of the thread where Americans traveled abroad and other people were “shocked I was an American.”  So, if you’re a decent person, people are shocked that you’re an American, which has the subtext that decent people can’t possibly nasty ol’ Americans? That was a bit difficult to read. Ouch. Maybe like when people are bad-mouthing homeschoolers in front of you and they say, “Well, not YOU of course...” but you wonder if behind your back, they absolutely do mean you.
 

And IMO how rude and ignorant to act "shocked that [a non-obnoxious person] was an American."  Imagine the international reaction if an American said that kind of thing about someone from any country or background.

[KungFuPanda]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

And IMO how rude and ignorant to act "shocked that [a non-obnoxious person] was an American."  Imagine the international reaction if an American said that kind of thing about someone from any country or background.

Yeah, but what does "shocked" really look like.  My guess is that the real life conversation was "Oh, you're American.  I didn't realize." This becomes "absolute shock" in the retelling. It could have been something as simple as they just assumed a person was another nationality until they heard the accent.

[MercyA]

10 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

I've just been reading along but have to jump in and opine that of the two sorts it's the red squirrels that are the villains.   Sure, there are more gray squirrels and they are bigger and not as cute, but they pretty much limit their annoying behaviors, like raiding the birdfeeder, to the great out-of-doors. I'm not even sure what it is they do that's annoying other than that, which is honestly a very minor annoyance.  I've never had a squirrel of either sort bother my garden - that's the woodchucks and bunnies and deer.   Red squirrels may be a bundle of cuteness, but they gnaw and nibble their way into your house and outbuildings and then gnaw and nibble and poo all over the insides of your house and insulation and wiring and all the stuff you have stored in your attic and garage...    Red squirrels are real stinkers.

Well, of course. Everyone who's ever read Miss Suzy knows that. 😉 Amazon summary: "Miss Suzy, a gray squirrel, lives 'in the tip, tip, top of a tall oak tree'-until a throng of mean red squirrels displaces her. She retreats to a dollhouse and meets some toy soldiers who help her reclaim her house."

One of my favorite childhood books.

Sorry, so random, I know. 🙂 

Carry on.

[annegables]

35 minutes ago, Garga said:

 

Some of the stories on this thread have made me feel a little unsettled:  Particularly all those stories from the beginning of the thread where Americans traveled abroad and other people were “shocked I was an American.”  So, if you’re a decent person, people are shocked that you’re an American, which has the subtext that decent people can’t possibly nasty ol’ Americans? That was a bit difficult to read. Ouch. Maybe like when people are bad-mouthing homeschoolers in front of you and they say, “Well, not YOU of course...” but you wonder if behind your back, they absolutely do mean you.

 

 

I have thought that many a time, when people say a stereotype about a group I am a member of (religious, homeschooling, area of country, etc) and say, "but of course I dont mean you!!!!" Especially if the stereotype is an observation + judgement, or if there is a "two sides to the same coin" faults are similar to our virtues, type of thing. For instance, I am not good at conflict. That is a neutral observation. "Anne is doormat who cannot defend herself and is a terrible mom who would let strangers yell at her kids for no reason" is a judgement on that observation. The positive side of not being good at conflict is that I tend to go out of my way to not give offense and I retreat quickly. The bad side is that I tend not to stick up for myself. 

 

[MercyA]

5 hours ago, StellaM said:

No, I give up. Nobody listens, and they don't listen because they don't care. That's about the size of it.

(Plus I used up my squirrel story)

I think I listen, and I think others do, too. Really!

Also, yay squirrels! 🙂 

[Selkie]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Well, of course. Everyone who's ever read Miss Suzy knows that. 😉 Amazon summary: "Miss Suzy, a gray squirrel, lives 'in the tip, tip, top of a tall oak tree'-until a throng of mean red squirrels displaces her. She retreats to a dollhouse and meets some toy soldiers who help her reclaim her house."

One of my favorite childhood books.

Sorry, so random, I know. 🙂 

Carry on.

Miss Suzy is one of my most favorite books ever! ❤️ My kids love Miss Suzy, too!

[Corraleno]

20 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

Another huge issue is that to many in the U.S. it is considered extraordinarily rude, mean-spirited, discriminatory, and even racist to slap a stereotype onto people from another nation just because of how some tourists act. Newsflash, you admit you only notice the loud and drunk American tourists from cruises, but you're missing a whole lot of well behaved Americans and putting everyone into the bad category. You can call us thin skinned all you want (but then go around and act the same when when saying that non-Americans just should talk or should create a dark forum) but to so many here the attitudes being shown are considered to be absolutely uncalled for because of how we approach these topics in the U.S. 

Regarding the bolded... if you are claiming that Americans are never rude, mean-spirited, discriminatory, or racist in the way they talk about people from other countries, then you must live under a rock. I mean there are pretty much daily tweets from, uh, "highly placed people in the US," that use terrible discriminatory language about people from other countries — and create policies that align with that language. So I find the whole "OMG we Americans would never be so rude as to talk about people this way!" pretty ironic, because I see Americans saying FAR worse things about foreigners, as well as fellow Americans with different values and beliefs, every single day, every time I open my laptop.

Also, I haven't seen any references to drunk American tourists, just some who are loud, sometimes obnoxious, and often clueless about local cultures. I believe the drunk comments were made by Aussies about what they assumed to be some of the stereotypes other countries might hold about Aussies. I've seen very few drunk American tourists, but lots and lots of loud, culturally insensitive ones. Of course I've seen nice polite American tourists, too, but the loud obnoxious ones certainly stand out more. Some of the worst examples of human beings I've ever met in my life were Americans who were adopting from SE Asia at the same time I was — I could tell some "Ugly American" stories that would truly blow your mind. But no one on this thread has ever said that ALL Americans should be "put into the bad category." Seriously — no one said that. So if you're not a loud, pushy, insensitive American when you travel abroad, then no one is talking about you. 

[annegables]

I will also say that I live in a part of the US that I am not particularly fond of (we move a lot) and that many people not from here have a love/hate (mostly hate) relationship with. I have had to be very careful in monitoring how I speak of my feelings about this part of the country to those who are born and raised here. Other transplants can sympathize with me and some of the crazy out here, but a lot of what drives me crazy about here is unnoticed to those who have always swum in these waters (most of whom are lovely people).

When I travel to other places and people start bad-mouthing where I live and the people who live there, I am quick to defend the innocent! Not everyone who lives here is a total nutjob!!! Many of us think this place is crazy, too. But please dont disparage me because of a couple high-profile nutters.

[MercyA]

nm

Edited January 17, 2020 by MercyA

[Ausmumof3]

5 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

7 hours ago, Mbelle said:

As an american who goes to Aus a lot and is married to one....

Australians tease and make fun of each other A LOT from my perspective.  They also use a lot of sarcasm.  Of course certain parts of the US use sarcasm too, but where I live it's used much less often and milder.  Anyway, all that can come across as a bit of bullying if you aren't used to it.   It's like many things with a cultural difference it's just the way it is.  

So true.  In Australia if we are polite to you we probably don’t like you.  If we like you you’ll know because you’ll have an insulting nickname and we’ll tease a tonne.

thats a stereotype but it’s also kinda true.

[MercyA]

2 minutes ago, parent said:

My favorite childhood story was squirrel Nutkin... but I hate squirrels.  Horrible nuisance, damaging things by chewing.  Any in our yard fall to peanut butter in a rat trap.

Wow, I wish I could broadcast a warning message to squirrels in your neighborhood.

They are just living their little lives, you know.

[Ausmumof3]

5 hours ago, Mbelle said:

I was shocked when I first went to Aus to find out how much these 2 countries get on each others nerves.  It is well beyond US/Canada (although I'm southern and Canada is so far away that kind of thing doesn't really exist here like border states)   Anyway, when I first went to AUS I heard how the Kiwi's were weird, had a chip on their shoulder and defensive and there's something wrong with them.  I couldn't believe it.  I thought they were making it up, but they weren't.

edited:  I mean by making it up that I thought they were Aussie teasing.

Honestly as someone who has parents in both cultures this is mostly in fun.  Just don’t talk about underarm bowling or pavlova.

[moonflower]

I don't mind talking about stereotypes, or taking them seriously, or judging other peoples or cultures, or talking about the factual bases for differences in behavior between different groups of people.  What I mind, I guess, is the idea that you can only "punch up" - perhaps that comes from a perspective of being largely in the majority/ruling class, but it is what it is.  What I find dismaying is the idea that we can make fun of Americans, or talk about their failings, their stereotypical behavior and how we've seen examples of it in our own experience, etc., but it is morally wrong to do the same for other groups (to the point of I wouldn't be welcome on these boards if I applied this standard to various minority groups, and a thread about it would go very differently than this one has).  To some degree you can talk about the good/exceptional/successful stereotypes or generalizations about other cultures (Mexicans immigrants in America are family-oriented, Asian immigrants are hardworking, etc.) but not about the negative aspects of other cultures, races, religious groups (unless they are majority or popularly despised), and so on.

[Matryoshka]

52 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Sorry for being hyperbolic.

I would like to see a red squirrel one day.

Ah, but now you have to clarify, do you mean a virtuous tufty-eared European red squirrel (aka Squirrel Nutkin variety), or the villainous American red squirrel (aka Miss Suzy's tormentors?)

    vs        

Edited January 17, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Corraleno]

18 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Wow, I wish I could broadcast a warning message to squirrels in your neighborhood.

They are just living their little lives, you know.

😥 They can come live in my yard, I put food out for the squirrels and possums and raccoons by the back fence. I had a semi-pet squirrel when I was little, he would run up and down the screen door in the kitchen at breakfast time, and I'd feed him cheerios. My dad had a pet squirrel that even lived in the house when he was a kid.

[Shellydon]

This thread makes me never, ever want to travel out of the U.S. I live in the largest touristy destination in my state and see people from countries across the world. I have never once thought poorly of them regardless of how they behaved because I assume that their culture is different than ours. I'm sad to see that citizens of other countries can't accept that the American culture is different from theirs and instead are so easily offended by the difference.  Last week I ran into a group of German tourists. This was their third trip to the United States. They said the US was their favorite place to travel because, generally speaking, the people were so nice.  

[Matryoshka]

6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

😥 They can come live in my yard, I put food out for the squirrels and possums and raccoons by the back fence. I had a semi-pet squirrel when I was little, he would run up and down the screen door in the kitchen at breakfast time, and I'd feed him cheerios. My dad had a pet squirrel that even lived in the house when he was a kid.

Yeah, I'm not sure what squirrels outdoors in yards are doing that is bothering people so much.  I only object to home-invader squirrels.  I even enjoy the red squirrels when they are outdoors where they belong - even without tufty ears they are adorable.  And those flying squirrels are totally cute - I really only had a problem when one was sailing around my bedroom.  No.flying.things.in.house.  Even semi-flying.  Nothing airborne.

ETA: Are you squirrels are pests in the yard objecters talking about ground squirrels, maybe?  We don't have those here.  We only have the kind that live in trees.  And chipmunks, but they don't bother me either - they are cat entertainment (through the window).

Edited January 17, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

Final comment.

I feel like this thread was a set up. 

Basically, there's nothing I should ever say to Americans except 'Yay you'.

Because that's all that every going to be accepted.

I feel sad and offended that answering a question about national stereotypes has posters saying that we (non US) just fake the care and concern we show for US boardies in hard times. 

And how freaking interesting that the thread  was forced to end with the non USians having to perform social apology before  reintergration into the 'community' can be considered.

Really, really disappointed in this thread.

Tolerated as pets, that what y'all communicate. 

Not really feeling reintegrated here. I have been slowing down on the forum time and this just made me realise I need to stick to that goal.  I do feel set up.  There were a heck of a lot of fairly balanced and kind replies, but there were a couple that kinda upset me. 

[moonflower]

4 minutes ago, parent said:

Many have rabies.  No tears from me.

Honestly, it may be my biggest shock of this entire thread that anyone would feed an oppossum.  Horrible hissing creatures.

I'm only half kidding... maybe 1/4 kidding.

 

Possums don't bother me much as they're pretty non-confrontational (they just want you to go away and leave them to eat the cat food) and don't spread rabies or lyme or whatever.

Raccoons on the other hand, while cuter, are much more vicious and can be rabid.

[Matryoshka]

2 minutes ago, parent said:

Many have rabies.  No tears from me.

Honestly, it may be my biggest shock of this entire thread that anyone would feed an oppossum.  Horrible hissing creatures.

I'm only half kidding... maybe 1/4 kidding.

Opossums actually almost never get rabies.  Apparently their low body temperature makes it almost impossible for the virus to survive.  And they're a huge help in tick reduction.  They love to eat ticks.  In a Lyme-infested area, that's huge.  I don't feed them, except offering up all the ticks they can eat.  Certainly don't plan on chasing them away...

[MercyA]

5 minutes ago, parent said:

Many have rabies.  No tears from me.

Honestly, it may be my biggest shock of this entire thread that anyone would feed an oppossum.  Horrible hissing creatures.

I'm only half kidding... maybe 1/4 kidding.

Seriously? Opossums aren't aggressive. Their hissing is a bluff. If it doesn't work they'll play dead. Also, rabies is exceedingly rare in opossums because of their lower body temperature. America's own cute marsupial! 😉 

Squirrels almost never have rabies and have never been known to transmit rabies to humans. 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Regarding the bolded... if you are claiming that Americans are never rude, mean-spirited, discriminatory, or racist in the way they talk about people from other countries, then you must live under a rock. I mean there are pretty much daily tweets from, uh, "highly placed people in the US," that use terrible discriminatory language about people from other countries — and create policies that align with that language. So I find the whole "OMG we Americans would never be so rude as to talk about people this way!" pretty ironic, because I see Americans saying FAR worse things about foreigners, as well as fellow Americans with different values and beliefs, every single day, every time I open my laptop.

Also, I haven't seen any references to drunk American tourists, just some who are loud, sometimes obnoxious, and often clueless about local cultures. I believe the drunk comments were made by Aussies about what they assumed to be some of the stereotypes other countries might hold about Aussies. I've seen very few drunk American tourists, but lots and lots of loud, culturally insensitive ones. Of course I've seen nice polite American tourists, too, but the loud obnoxious ones certainly stand out more. Some of the worst examples of human beings I've ever met in my life were Americans who were adopting from SE Asia at the same time I was — I could tell some "Ugly American" stories that would truly blow your mind. But no one on this thread has ever said that ALL Americans should be "put into the bad category." Seriously — no one said that. So if you're not a loud, pushy, insensitive American when you travel abroad, then no one is talking about you. 

This is exactly what I was thinking when reading the comments by the offended Americans. So maybe some general things were said about American tourists that some found rude or disrespectful. It wasn’t followed by ok, now  let’s make a law or policy to treat Americans differently or give them fewer rights or privileges, like ban them from visiting our country or only allow them to visit certain places. While even on this board, let alone in the US, some minority groups are pretty fair game for being blamed for major moral or social issues, despite their minuscule numbers, with corresponding beliefs about how their rights need to be limited for the good of society.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Frances

[Arcadia]

47 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

So true.  In Australia if we are polite to you we probably don’t like you.  If we like you you’ll know because you’ll have an insulting nickname and we’ll tease a tonne.

thats a stereotype but it’s also kinda true.

Maybe that’s why my niece married an Australian and stays put in Sydney (both working as teachers). She blends right in 🤣

[Matryoshka]

4 minutes ago, parent said:

Actually, I don't have oppossum near me.  Huge bonus that they eat ticks!!  Didn't know that.

However, still nasty, hissing, not cute animals.

Well, they're nocturnal, so pretty much the only time you see one is when it's trying to commit suicide by car...  they are not the most attractive animals, but my opinion of them has climbed about 1000% since I found out about the tick thing...

[Arcadia]

My rather aloof neighborhood squirrels. There are four resident squirrels at the palm tree nearest to my patio. These squirrels tend to MYOB. When I stayed in a rental, the squirrels there dug up my garlic cloves and ginger bulbs from my patio planters. 

[Corraleno]

4 minutes ago, Shellydon said:

This thread makes me never, ever want to travel out of the U.S. I live in the largest touristy destination in my state and see people from countries across the world. I have never once thought poorly of them regardless of how they behaved because I assume that their culture is different than ours. I'm sad to see that citizens of other countries can't accept that the American culture is different from theirs and instead are so easily offended by the difference.  Last week I ran into a group of German tourists. This was their third trip to the United States. They said the US was their favorite place to travel because, generally speaking, the people were so nice.  

Do the tourists you meet from other countries yell when they don't get what they want? Do they tell you how much better their country is and how stupidly you do things? Do they expect everyone in the US to speak German/Chinese/French or whatever, or do they make an attempt to speak to you in your language?

When I was adopting DD, there were a lot of other Americans staying in the same hotel. Many would literally not leave the hotel, or eat anything other than Western-style food from the hotel restaurant. I remember one woman arriving at the hotel from the airport while I happened to be in the lobby and she was completely freaked out and kept talking about "people carrying pigs — pigs! — in cages on the backs of their scooters!" — like aliens had beamed her up and dropped her on another planet that was beyond her wildest imagination. People complained that the city was too noisy, too dirty, everything was so inefficient and didn't people in this backwards country understand how busy they were and what an inconvenience it was to be stuck in this place??? This was at a time when there was a lot of upheaval in international adoption and countries were closing to Americans, and there was a lot of uncertainty and delays. My "favorite" family were a couple from NY in their early 50s who approached the whole thing like they were shopping for a designer handbag at Saks. They had a whole checklist of traits they were looking for, and said they wanted to be able to choose a child from an urban orphanage rather than one from a rural orphanage, because they thought urban children would likely have higher IQs. I shit you not. 😡 When the adoption coordinator mentioned that there was a major holiday coming up and that no paperwork would be processed during that period, the husband smirked and pulled out his wallet and said "well, I bet 100 bucks could solve that problem..."  and seemed shocked that no, $100 wasn't going to get his paperwork processed when all government offices were closed. That guy's answer to everything for the 10 days he was there was "just tell me who to pay and how much, I need to get this done as quickly as possible."  Eventually he pitched a fit and announced that he was leaving and canceling the whole thing and wanted his money back, and his until-then-very-quiet wife snapped and said "Go home if you want to, but I'm not leaving." He did go back to NY, and she stayed another 3 weeks and eventually completed the adoption. The mom who was so freaked out that there were Pigs! on Motorcycles! adopted a 10 month old baby who turned out to have an undiagnosed (but correctible) heart condition, and instead of thinking "thank God my baby is now in a place where she can get the care she needs," she tried to sue the adoption agency for basically selling her damaged goods. There were other families who cancelled adoptions and left without their children rather than "put up with" all the delays and hassles. There was a crazy woman who admitted she and her husband had faked their home study (temporarily rented a house and claimed they lived there) and that she really wanted "a little Chinese baby" but her husband was too old according to the Chinese adoption regulations, so they were basically settling for SE Asian kid instead. And she was very vocal about the fact that she wanted the youngest, tiniest, lightest-skinned baby girl she could get, preferably a newborn. I have never been as disgusted with the human race as I was after that experience. 

Were all the American adoptive families that bad? Of course not. There were two other families I was close to, who were all there a long time (two months for me, up to 6 months for one of the other moms who had some unusual circumstances), who were nothing like the people described above. I was also friends with a French family who were adopting for the second time, and I asked them and the adoption coordinator if French families typically acted like the Americans and I was emphatically told no. So when people talk about the "ugly American" stereotype, they are usually talking about a lot more than just a few benign cultural differences like how close you stand to someone or how many photos you take. 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Do the tourists you meet from other countries yell when they don't get what they want? Do they tell you how much better their country is and how stupidly you do things? Do they expect everyone in the US to speak German/Chinese/French or whatever, or do they make an attempt to speak to you in your language?

When I was adopting DD, there were a lot of other Americans staying in the same hotel. Many would literally not leave the hotel, or eat anything other than Western-style food from the hotel restaurant. I remember one woman arriving at the hotel from the airport while I happened to be in the lobby and she was completely freaked out and kept talking about "people carrying pigs — pigs! — in cages on the backs of their scooters!" — like aliens had beamed her up and dropped her on another planet that was beyond her wildest imagination. People complained that the city was too noisy, too dirty, everything was so inefficient and didn't people in this backwards country understand how busy they were and what an inconvenience it was to be stuck in this place??? This was at a time when there was a lot of upheaval in international adoption and countries were closing to Americans, and there was a lot of uncertainty and delays. My "favorite" family were a couple from NY in their early 50s who approached the whole thing like they were shopping for a designer handbag at Saks. They had a whole checklist of traits they were looking for, and said they wanted to be able to choose a child from an urban orphanage rather than one from a rural orphanage, because they thought urban children would likely have higher IQs. I shit you not. 😡 When the adoption coordinator mentioned that there was a major holiday coming up and that no paperwork would be processed during that period, the husband smirked and pulled out his wallet and said "well, I bet 100 bucks could solve that problem..."  and seemed shocked that no, $100 wasn't going to get his paperwork processed when all government offices were closed. That guy's answer to everything for the 10 days he was there was "just tell me who to pay and how much, I need to get this done as quickly as possible."  Eventually he pitched a fit and announced that he was leaving and canceling the whole thing and wanted his money back, and his until-then-very-quiet wife snapped and said "Go home if you want to, but I'm not leaving." He did go back to NY, and she stayed another 3 weeks and eventually completed the adoption. The mom who was so freaked out that there were Pigs! on Motorcycles! adopted a 10 month old baby who turned out to have an undiagnosed (but correctible) heart condition, and instead of thinking "thank God my baby is now in a place where she can get the care she needs," she tried to sue the adoption agency for basically selling her damaged goods. There were other families who cancelled adoptions and left without their children rather than "put up with" all the delays and hassles. There was a crazy woman who admitted she and her husband had faked their home study (temporarily rented a house and claimed they lived there) and that she really wanted "a little Chinese baby" but her husband was too old according to the Chinese adoption regulations, so they were basically settling for SE Asian kid instead. And she was very vocal about the fact that she wanted the youngest, tiniest, lightest-skinned baby girl she could get, preferably a newborn. I have never been as disgusted with the human race as I was after that experience. 

Were all the American adoptive families that bad? Of course not. There were two other families I was close to, who were all there a long time (two months for me, up to 6 months for one of the other moms who had some unusual circumstances), who were nothing like the people described above. I was also friends with a French family who were adopting for the second time, and I asked them and the adoption coordinator if French families typically acted like the Americans and I was emphatically told no. So when people talk about the "ugly American" stereotype, they are usually talking about a lot more than just a few benign cultural differences like how close you stand to someone or how many photos you take. 

Adoption tourism is a whole other kettle of fish. I have never been so horrified as listening/observing the conversations of many international adoptive parents, prospective and existing. I think the sample is skewed by the a) money involved and b)entitlement aspects inherent in the adoption business tho.

[moonflower]

Yeah, I wouldn't say that people adopting children from other countries/cultures are necessarily indicative of the population as a whole...

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, parent said:

Many have rabies.  No tears from me.

Honestly, it may be my biggest shock of this entire thread that anyone would feed an oppossum.  Horrible hissing creatures.

I'm only half kidding... maybe 1/4 kidding.

No to the bolded. Squirrels and other small rodents almost never get or carry rabies. Raccoons do, though. (That link goes to the CDC website).

I think possums are one of the ugliest critters known to man. But they're helpful in controlling ticks.

[MEmama]

6 hours ago, MercyA said:

Seriously? Opossums aren't aggressive. Their hissing is a bluff. If it doesn't work they'll play dead. Also, rabies is exceedingly rare in opossums because of their lower body temperature. America's own cute marsupial! 😉 

Squirrels almost never have rabies and have never been known to transmit rabies to humans. 

We ❤️ the possums that live under our shed. They devour ticks, leave the cutest little footprints in the snow and keep to themselves. I think they are weirdly cute.

The squirrels on the other hand...we refer to them as yard rodents. I cannot stand them. They dig up my bulbs and veggie plants and make it almost impossible for me to keep bird seed and suet out for the birds. I just think they are gross. OTOH they do provide terrific entertainment for our (indoor!) kitties. One in particular likes to practice her hunting skills when they tease her. No squirrel would stand a chance if she could jump out a window (she can’t).

[HS Mom in NC]

8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

So true.  In Australia if we are polite to you we probably don’t like you.  If we like you you’ll know because you’ll have an insulting nickname and we’ll tease a tonne.

thats a stereotype but it’s also kinda true.

There was a thread here in the last couple of years about affection motivated teasing being an important developmental and social skill for children so they could apply it in adulthood.  A sizeable number of posters here, mostly Americans if I remember correctly, couldn't even grasp the concept and were outraged. We see this in threads where Americans from everywhere but the American South explain how negatively loaded the term ma'am is in their regions. When told isn't not advisable to use it in those places, predictably some posters simply cannot accept it as a statement of fact, but instead argue and argue that it should be viewed in the same light as they see it. 

I think there are personalities and subcultures that don't like nuance because they're not steeped in it, so they struggle with distinguishing between things like affectionate teasing vs. cruel teasing and sub/cultural norms vs. negative stereotypes, etc. That's probably why we're seeing some posters insisting on categorizing all of the answers the OP got as stereotypes and generalizations and refusing to recognize more categorizes of discussing group behaviors.  It makes me remember President George Bush (the son) saying or being credited with saying, "I don't do nuance." as though it were a badge of honor.  Plenty of people who liked him said the same thing proudly.  Um, OK.  You're telling me that there's an aspect of reality you refuse to engage in.  Your choice, but there are consequences for that. I don't think you're going to like the consequences.

I wonder if this is because they're idealists who struggle with differentiating between how things are vs. how they think things should be and struggle with the concept of switching gears between those two things based on the situation.   It could be that homeschooler syndrome where they cannot adapt to group situations and discussions because everything is always about their own individual child and their own individual child's needs, and they expect all groups to adapt to their individual child, even if it doesn't work for a group setting. They just can't or won't make the shift to thinking and speaking in terms of the group as a whole when appropriate. It seems morally offensive to them. Or maybe it's a combination of a personality type who is prone to "needing" to fit in (this person tends to view anyone pointing out differences as indirect criticism instead of indirect acknowledgement and affirmation of differences) while being raised in a region prone to valuing conformity and tradition like The South and The Midwest. (Now watch someone quote and tell me "Not everyone in those regions is like that.") Add to that that those regions as a whole aren't known for candid conversation, they see less diversity of thought, fewer sub-cultural norms, less domestic and international  tourism, and it's the perfect storm. 

Those of us from large, diverse places often have experience adjusting to things like removing our shoes when we enter someone else's home; eating at restaurants near the Mosque that cater to Muslims;  knowing what our Latina friend means when she says she's on Mexican time today; applying the briefing of Native American norms about time, eye contact, photography, and speech patterns when visiting tribal land;  knowing the bowing and social hierarchy rules for the Korean martial arts school that caters to Asian immigrant parents; and the like.

 And don't let anyone tell you they have no idea what people mean by obnoxious American tourists. We hear about obnoxious tourists (American and international) from people who work with and live near them in the US.  Americans complain about the other obnoxious Americans at their hotel, restaurants, and tourist destinations.  They don't use the term American, but I've heard plenty of griping about New Yorkers, teens, small children, rednecks, hipsters, Millennials, Baby Boomers, etc. Plenty of people can point the finger, but when someone else points it back it's all "righteous" indignation and outrage. 

[HS Mom in NC]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Adoption tourism is a whole other kettle of fish. I have never been so horrified as listening/observing the conversations of many international adoptive parents, prospective and existing. I think the sample is skewed by the a) money involved and b)entitlement aspects inherent in the adoption business tho.

International adoptive parent here.  I agree.  I have cringed many times at other international adoptive parent attitudes.

ETA: We had our daughter escorted to the US by social workers in case someone is wondering if it was possible that we were unaware Ugly Americans abroad.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[Tanaqui]

Quote

knowing what our Latina friend means when she says she's on Mexican time today;

 

Whenever somebody says they're on $ETHNICITY time or $REGION time, they almost always mean that they're running late and not looking at a clock. You don't need to tell me that one, it's a universal that, for some reason, people *universally* believe is limited to their own group.

[Mbelle]

9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

So true.  In Australia if we are polite to you we probably don’t like you.  If we like you you’ll know because you’ll have an insulting nickname and we’ll tease a tonne.

thats a stereotype but it’s also kinda true.

I know it's common and I've heard it, 

However, this just doesn't happen in dh family.   My MIL is super conscientious and it would crush her if she thought she hurt someones feelings.  I'm sitting here thinking of larger gatherings and there are a couple of people who do this, but by and large I would say they do not.  I usally sit on the sideline listening and maybe talking to other inlaws while the family catches up.  (Many live on the mainland now).  The sarcasm is more prevelant than where I live though. They are farming community type people so I dont' know if that makes a difference.  Not everyone is a farmer, but the whole area is based around agriculture so it influences everything. 

[Shellydon]

8 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Do the tourists you meet from other countries yell when they don't get what they want? Do they tell you how much better their country is and how stupidly you do things? Do they expect everyone in the US to speak German/Chinese/French or whatever, or do they make an attempt to speak in English?

Absolutely they gripe, scoff, complain, throw their hands in the air. I've been chewed out in Chinese a few times.  They crowd the sidewalks in such a way that is impossible to move around them causing people to be late to work. 

But it's perfectly fine. Travel is stressful even if it's fun and it is hard to adjust to a completely different culture. I would never ever call a group of people from another country ugly. Ever. I never fuss and complain of them or go on message boards and be little a group from another country.  I never hear anyone doing the same. 

 We have been considering an international trip with another group of homeschoolers but I have now nixed the idea. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Shellydon

[HS Mom in NC]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Whenever somebody says they're on $ETHNICITY time or $REGION time, they almost always mean that they're running late and not looking at a clock. You don't need to tell me that one, it's a universal that, for some reason, people *universally* believe is limited to their own group.

That's not true.  They speak for themselves and their own subculture instead of speaking for the group of sub/cultures they're well aware share their relaxed attitude toward time. Mexicans know Native Americans in the SW do this too, but it would be weird to say, "I'm on (list of ethnic groups, regions, and nationalities relaxed about time) time." They're Mexican, they talk about Mexican time.

Not everyone knows this.  Transplants to the SW (like them, I'm speaking from my own experience, knowing full well others have experienced it other regions with other groups) are often confused when they hear this phrase.  I've explained it more than once for them.

[Islandgal]

On 1/16/2020 at 7:17 PM, PrincessMommy said:

This is very helpful.  At first I thought people were whitewashing things for us or something.  I wasn't sure what that meant. 

Yes, I can see that as being misinterpreted by Americans.   My sister and her husband tease and make fun of each other a lot too (both Americans)... and I find it hard to listen too because it's just not the way my dh and I communicate.  I think my dh would be deeply offended if I did that. 

I was going to let this go but it's been bugging me. I want to say this as gently as I possibly can, because you have been super receptive and supportive, and I thank you for it.  

I'd like to draw attention to the statement that I highlighted.

Can you see how saying this may be perceived that because a fellow American said it gives the point made validity, and may come across hurtful or dismissive? In my opinion, using the term whitewashing suggests that the people were being dishonest. It all goes back to if you aren't sure of something, ask.

I don't mean to offend you or pick on you in any way at all. I just wanted to point out that sometimes innocent statements made can subliminally show or can be perceived as superiority on some level, even though I know that was not the intent.

I was not hurt by this, personally, in any shape or form. It was bugging me because I felt that it was a good opportunity to show what I've been trying to convey this whole time.

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Islandgal

[HS Mom in NC]

6 minutes ago, Shellydon said:

 We have been considering an international trip with another group of homeschoolers but I have now nixed the idea. 

You can do whatever you want for whatever reason you like, but why pass up an opportunity to travel abroad when you can read a book like Culture Shock and watch some YouTube videos that prep you for the norms in the location you're considering? 

I've never traveled abroad (I have been on tribal land in the US which is, in a way, its own country.)  The few times I nearly did travel abroad  something derailed it, but turning down that kind of  opportunity should be done with serious consideration.  For Americans, travel is very expensive and time consuming-time work schedules rarely accommodate.   The opportunity may not come again or it may not come for a very long time.  It's usually a formative and enlightening experience for people.  Don't reject it just because you'd have to make adjustments in your thoughts and actions.

[sweet2ndchance]

On 1/14/2020 at 5:47 PM, fairfarmhand said:

Perhaps if I’m real nice they’ll say “I never would’ve pegged you as an American.”

I actually got this comment quite a bit when we traveled abroad. I don't have any real accent and I always look up local cultures and customs of anywhere I travel before we go and if it isn't an English speaking country, I try to learn as much of the language as I can so I'm not always having to say "Do you speak English?". The last thing I ever I want to be is a stereo-typical American tourist when visiting another country.

I remember when I was about 10 or 11, I was watching some TV show with my dad and one of the characters made some sort of comment about being American and thinking that they should be treated differently (i.e. better) or given special privilege because of it. I remember saying to my dad that I hated that so many Americans acted like that and that it was silly to expect to be treated differently based on your nationality when you are basically a guest in a foreign country. That sent my dad off into a tirade about how I must have learned that attitude at school (umm, no it was my own opinion that I formed myself, thanks) and how America is falling to pieces because the schools are anti-American patriotism, blah, blah, blah... I had never traveled abroad yet at that age but I really wanted to. I was an adult before I got the opportunity and I positively love experiencing the cultures and traditions of other countries. I especially love getting away from the tourist areas and getting to see what the country and culture is really like, iykwim.

[KungFuPanda]

8 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Do the tourists you meet from other countries yell when they don't get what they want? Do they tell you how much better their country is and how stupidly you do things? Do they expect everyone in the US to speak German/Chinese/French or whatever, or do they make an attempt to speak to you in your language?

 

Wait, so you've never heard anyone who isn't American get angry and yell when things don't go their way while they are guests in an other country? You've never heard anyone from another nationality double down and insist that their nation's food, family values, life style, landscape, music, art, etc is THE best and why you should do it their way instead?  You've never had a group with 5 people, and 7 languages among you, and you had to pick the most common language for communication efficiency? (Or two most common to minimize the layers of translation.) 

[Matryoshka]

5 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

You can do whatever you want for whatever reason you like, but why pass up an opportunity to travel abroad when you can read a book like Culture Shock and watch some YouTube videos that prep you for the norms in the location you're considering? 

I've never traveled abroad (I have been on tribal land in the US which is, in a way, its own country.)  The few times I nearly did travel abroad  something derailed it, but turning down that kind of  opportunity should be done with serious consideration.  For Americans, travel is very expensive and time consuming-time work schedules rarely accommodate.   The opportunity may not come again or it may not come for a very long time.  It's usually a formative and enlightening experience for people.  Don't reject it just because you'd have to make adjustments in your thoughts and actions.

I think traveling abroad is super-important.  It's being exposed to other places and the fact that other places do do things differently, and have different cultures that challenges those assumptions that can make some tourists challenging.

Honestly, I think it would benefit everyone to live abroad for at least 6 months - longer is better.  Go on your trip!  Just don't demand hamburgers and french fries everywhere you go.  Try the food there (and other unfamiliar things) with an open mind.  And btw, sticking to the 'famliar' doesn't even work - the hamburgers even at McDonald's in different countries have been changed in subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle ways to conform to local tastes, just like Chinese and Mexican food here is changed for US tastes.  Because those other cultures have assumptions about what is 'normal' food too, but they're different from ours. 

I have a German cousin who's one of 'those' tourists, it seems.  One time she complained bitterly that she hated visiting Italy because they didn't have 'proper' food, like, y'know, schnitzel.  Who hates Italian food???!!!  I know for a fact there's spaghetti and pizza galore in Germany.  What the heck???  Nope, to her it was weird and she couldn't wait to get home.  Sigh. It's a mindset that can be found anywhere.  The solution is to get yourself out there with an open mind.  The open mind is key.  This same cousin visited us for two summers when she was a teen, and demanded cold cuts and cheese every morning for breakfast, because that's what you eat in Germany.  Wouldn't touch cereal or anything else we offered.  So even a good deal of exposure was no help for her.  Her way was Right, and everyone else is Wrong.  It's this thinking, which is often unconscious and unrealized in people who have never traveled and seen things done differently, that is the biggest problem. 

That's why I say at least 6 months.  Even I, when living abroad, thought some things seemed 'wrong' (although I didn't voice this, just thought it) and then after a while you like them, and there's a period of 'the way we do it at home is wrong', and after some more time you come to the realization that there is more than one way to do some things, and sometimes your way is better, sometimes theirs, and a whole lot of the time one way isn't better or worse, just different and equally valid, and that's just fine.  

[SKL]

I agree that spending time abroad is really important, for numerous reasons.

And if/when you do, don't seek to hide your heritage; be the person who, by your actions, makes locals question those negative stereotypes.

[annegables]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Whenever somebody says they're on $ETHNICITY time or $REGION time, they almost always mean that they're running late and not looking at a clock. You don't need to tell me that one, it's a universal that, for some reason, people *universally* believe is limited to their own group.

I had to laugh at this. My ancestry is German. I am fairly certain that if I said I was on "German time", it would mean that, as usual, I showed up 15 minutes early to something. 🤣

[annegables]

1 hour ago, Islandgal said:

I was going to let this go but it's been bugging me. I want to say this as gently as I possibly can, because you have been super receptive and supportive, and I thank you for it.  

I'd like to draw attention to the statement that I highlighted.

Can you see how saying this may be perceived that because a fellow American said it gives the point made validity, and may come across hurtful? It all goes back to if you aren't sure of something, ask. 

I don't mean to offend you or pick on you in any way at all. I just wanted to point out that sometimes innocent statements made can subliminally show or can be perceived as superiority on some level, even though I know that was not the intent.

I dont have a dog in this fight and I can see how it bugs you, however, to put a different perspective on what she might have meant (and I really apologize if this comes across as #Amerisplaining)....

It might be like if someone from outside of my religion was telling me something negative about my religion and I didn't understand what they were saying or what they meant by what they were saying. But then someone from my faith explains it to me. Even if they use the exact same words as the previous person, I can see where I might be able to understand it better. Not because of any negative association with the first person, but because I view the second person as coming from an insider perspective. 

[maize]

7 minutes ago, annegables said:

I had to laugh at this. My ancestry is German. I am fairly certain that if I said I was on "German time", it would mean that, as usual, I showed up 15 minutes early to something. 🤣

I was just thinking how, in Guatemala, church always started fifteen minutes late. In Austria, it started precisely on time and everyone was already in their seat. Same denomination.

There ARE different cultural norms regarding time and timeliness 🙂

[Murphy101]

I like this thread.  You know this might be a shock to some, but stereotypes exist for a reason - quite often there's a bit of truth to them. Some demographics do just tend to be ____.  *shrug* A little self reflection when entering new situations is a good thing.

Now.  I have not traveled outside the US much, but I'll share what I e noticed in my little travels.

I can spot a fellow American from 10 feet away without them speaking.  Most of us do seem to stand out.  Like literally.  The way we walk and sit and stand is just... identifiable.  It took me several days to realize we were doing this and by day 3 I was starting my conversation with asking what state they are from. And then usually I'd ask how they are enjoying their trip, what's their favorite thing so far.  And we'd swap stories of our favorite place to eat or site see or adventure." Only once did the person look at me funny, shake their head no and say something, I think in Russian, that I suspect was along the lines of, "Oh god.  I'm not talking to another crazy American woman." lol  I don't think this is bad per se, but knowing it makes it easier to adjust and be more considerate of locals.  I did a lot of apologizing because frankly I sometimes felt like a bull in a China cabinet. But I noticed other Americans didn't react that way.  They often got irritated and vocally disgruntled.

A general attitude of wanting to go somewhere to experience new things but then when they get there, want to have it be like wherever in the US they are from.  They want the food, the accommodations, and the manners/service to be like they expect in the US.  Well ya ain't in Kansas anymore so get the heck over it already or go home.  Seriously.  Do a bit of research to ask what the customs are.  Eat a food you've never eaten before. Odds are good you might enjoy it and even if you don't always that it won't  hurt you.

Cursory reading brought up the how to get your waiter to bring the check issues?  Outside the us, my understanding is that there is a LOT less hurry to clear the table, which is wonderful but still want the check eventually. I have never snapped my fingers, but it was difficult in Curacao.  One of my friends said the universal thing to do is just make eye contact and quietly rub 2 fingers against your thumb near your face, but not above the head or outward.  I admit that it worked every single time without having to draw undo attention to ourselves.  Someone on staff would see it, give a nod of acknowledgement and we'd have our check within moments.  Was my friend correct that this acceptable politeness usually?

Side opinion on the other thread photography question.  I think crowding in on something to take a picture to the point others can't see it well or it backsup the queue excessively is obnoxious.  I do not think this is an American thing though.  As excited as you are doesn't make you more important than anyone else who is there for the same reason.

Also, no one ever places my accent.  They know what it isn't, but they don't peg me or most of my children as US born.  I have locals ask where we are from.  Apparently we have a speech impediment that makes our /-r/ blends and /-a/ endings sound British or Canadian? I've had people suggest speech therapy but I'm not inclined to pay a small fortune for this slight issue since I have no grudge against British or Canadian accents.  I have a grown son who messes with people by telling them he is from Hyrule in Yukon, Canada.  Most people nod and say something like, "I thought you sounded a little bit Canadian." Son pretends to be insulted that they think he is not totally Canadian or are referring to his height.  Most believe him. 😆  I used to get on to him for it as a kid, but yeah, at this point it's pretty darn funny.