Do Not Anger the Male

[Garga]

About 3 months ago started taking hapkido lessons, which is a martial art, so I’m new.

As a warm up activity to get our heart rates going, we each tucked a piece of cloth into our belts.  Then we paired up with whomever was next to us and would circle each other trying to get the piece of cloth out of the other person’s belt.  We were not allowed to grab and hold on to each other—just dash in and grab. We were allowed to block the person’s arm (sort of smack it away) as it came near to us, but that was it—no kicking or tripping or running away.  Just stay in your area and try to dart in and get their cloth, while simultaneously, they tried to get yours.

Then we’d switch partners and try again, and then switch again.

Each of my 3 partners was a man.  One is a black belt, one is more in the middle, and the third started just when I did.  So far, I’ve worked one-on-one only with women, because when you’re learning your material, they match you with someone of equal size.  Though, depending on who shows up to class, men and women do get paired together pretty often.  I just haven’t been paired with a man yet. This was the first time doing anything aggressive with male partners.  

And I have to say, my very first thought was a STRONG STRONG sense (like overwhelming) that I needed to keep a low profile and Not Anger The Male. I’ll say super fast:  I’ve never been attacked or hurt by a man.  But even though I’ve never ever been hurt by a man, my thoughts were whizzing around, out of my control, thinking, “If I end up getting the better of this male, will he get angry that a woman, especially one new to hapkido, beat him and then he will....what?”  My rational side knew that none of the men in that room would actually even consider hurting me, but it was like some sort of animal side of me was rapidly calculating how much danger I might be in if I made the males look bad by beating them at this cloth game.

It was the strangest thing.  The whole time we were circling each other, I was telling myself, “DO NOT hold back!  DO NOT pretend you’re worse at this than you are!  Go for the cloth!”  Because every instinct in my non-rational brain was screaming, “DO NOT ANGER THE MALE!!”  I had to force myself not to metaphorically roll over like dogs do when they don’t want to anger the alpha dog, and give up and just let them win. I would not have felt this way toward any of the women in class at all, even though all of the women are much more advanced than me.  I would never have considered that they’d get angry at being bested by a newbie.

 

Is that just me?  Has anyone ever been in a situation like that?  I have never felt this way before last night and it shook me.  Is that something that is personal to me, or something a lot of women might feel?  Is it my generation?  Are younger women or older women more or less likely not to want to Anger The Male?  (I’m 46.) 

It was really disconcerting and I just had to type this out.  

 

 

 

[Selkie]

Sounds like it was your survival instincts kicking in. Even though your rational mind knew you wouldn't get hurt, your instincts were telling you to beware. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective because men in general are so much stronger than women and therefore able to physically overpower them. 

Now I need to know - did you win??

[JustEm]

I do martial arts as well and I have never felt this but I know other women who have. Sadly, it has effected my training because some women are so intimidated that they requested that women train with women and men with men. And the school implemented that. The problem for me is that I find most men to be better partners because they don't hold back but not in an aggressive way. Thankfully dh is the head instructor so I get my one on one practice with him. If that weren't the case I'd find another school.

[gardenmom5]

what's your family  history?  is there any m on f domestic violence in your past? even grandparents?  epigenetics is a thing.

I've not had that.   my only "no, you must hold back", was after I was attacked, and dh didn't move fast enough when I told him to do so.  (I understand he had a hard time switching gears.) I didn't knee dh - but my body wanted to.

[gardenmom5]

Just now, hjffkj said:

I do martial arts as well and I have never felt this but I know other women who have. Sadly, it has effected my training because some women are so intimidated that they requested that women train with women and men with men. And the school implemented that. The problem for me is that I find most men to be better partners because they don't hold back but not in an aggressive way. Thankfully dh is the head instructor so I get my one on one practice with him. If that weren't the case I'd find another school.

that's unfortunate - as we need to be able to hold our own against male partners as well.   can you get other women who would like to be paired with "whomever" with you to go to the staff and get that sexist training regime reversed?   and stress - they are hurting women by allowing them to only train against women.  they are more likely to be paired with a male in competition - and they are more likely to need to use their skills in a real world setting - against males.

[Garga]

12 minutes ago, Selkie said:

 

Now I need to know - did you win??

Not with the black belt, but he’s played the game a number of times and it was my very first time playing.  He got my cloth  3 times.  I did get the cloth with the blue belt!  (The 2nd guy.). And then he got mine twice.  I was pretty happy I got his that one time.  Again, he’s played before and I haven’t.  For the third guy who started the same time I did, neither of us got the other’s cloth.

Basically, it played out as expected when you consider our experience.  The black belt got the most cloths, the blue belt bested me twice, but I did get his once, and for the guy that was equal, we couldn’t win against the other.

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

Do you know any of these guys?   Do you know them to be particularly aggressive in general?

I do not know them except from class.  The first man is in his 60s, but is very serious in class. The second one is light hearted and makes light jokes.  The third is super serious.

I’m not generally serious.  In fact, with the first guy, at one point I tried to distract him by saying, “Hey look! It’s the Goodyear blimp!” because sometimes I can’t resist a little joke. (He didn’t fall for it.).

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

what's your family  history?  is there any m on f domestic violence in your past? even grandparents?  epigenetics is a thing.

I've not had that.   my only "no, you must hold back", was after I was attacked, and dh didn't move fast enough when I told him to do so.  (I understand he had a hard time switching gears.) I didn't knee dh - but my body wanted to.

I don’t know my family history.  My parents lived far from the family, so I didn’t meet them.  

[Garga]

9 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

I do martial arts as well and I have never felt this but I know other women who have. Sadly, it has effected my training because some women are so intimidated that they requested that women train with women and men with men. And the school implemented that. The problem for me is that I find most men to be better partners because they don't hold back but not in an aggressive way. Thankfully dh is the head instructor so I get my one on one practice with him. If that weren't the case I'd find another school.

 

I am determined not to let this stop me from working with whomever I get paired up with, man or woman.  This took me by surprise, though for sure.  Didn’t see that internal reaction coming.

[JustEm]

20 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

that's unfortunate - as we need to be able to hold our own against male partners as well.   can you get other women who would like to be paired with "whomever" with you to go to the staff and get that sexist training regime reversed?   and stress - they are hurting women by allowing them to only train against women.  they are more likely to be paired with a male in competition - and they are more likely to need to use their skills in a real world setting - against males.

 

I have talked to dh about it, who as I said it the head instructor and he'd go back to it if he could but the owners do not want to.  They are too fearful that they will lose to many female students. I don't pay so they aren't worried about my opinion and I can't really gather other women because it would look bad on dh if I made that push.  But I really hope some of the other women do approach the staff.  Dh may have the decision power sooner rather than later because of a promotion that should be coming.  When he has the decision making power I will pester him pretty regularly.

[maize]

33 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Sounds like it was your survival instincts kicking in. Even though your rational mind knew you wouldn't get hurt, your instincts were telling you to beware. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective because men in general are so much stronger than women and therefore able to physically overpower them. 

Now I need to know - did you win??

I agree, sounds like instinct.

Males are larger, stronger, often more aggressive. Certainly more dangerous on average.

our deep brains know that.

[JustEm]

20 minutes ago, Garga said:

 

I am determined not to let this stop me from working with whomever I get paired up with, man or woman.  This took me by surprise, though for sure.  Didn’t see that internal reaction coming.

 

I don't think it is an uncommon reaction but I'm glad to hear you want to work passed it. I'm sure you will the more you work with men. 

[gardenmom5]

27 minutes ago, maize said:

I agree, sounds like instinct.

Males are larger, stronger, often more aggressive. Certainly more dangerous on average.

our deep brains know that.

and why it is so important that women train against men in this type of sport - so the "instinct", can be overcome. otherwise, the training is worthless if/when it matters in the real world.

[Katy]

I never had that reaction, but I do remember when I was a teen repeatedly thinking that if I got too into something aggressive (martial arts or even dodge ball), I might lose control of myself and never be able to get it back.  I don't know where that came from.

[ktgrok]

Hmm...when I ran my first 5K race, I remember there was a man running just ahead of me. I am a VERY slow runner, but I realized I could run faster than him, and was overtaking him. And then part of my brain said, 'he looks like he REALLy wants to beat you, you should let him stay ahead of you." It wasn't fear, it was me being "nice", because he seemed to want to stay ahed of me. Then the logical part of my brain kicked in and reminded me it was a race, lol. So I passed him. But I still feel a bit iffy about that, lol. 

I don't know that it was a man/woman thing though...but maybe. My DH has caught me cheating in board games to throw the game to him or others...i don't like to see other people lose. 

[MaBelle]

LOL, I'm 61 and that's like one of my favorite hobbies.  Not the martial arts, the angering part.

 

[SKL]

I've never felt this way in several years of taekwondo.  I don't think my daughters feel that way either.

I do think certain women are much more likely to kick my butt ruthlessly than men.  Men have been brought up to not hurt women.  Women figure it's fair game.  I had one lady warn me about another, saying "she broke my ankle last time we sparred."  Lord have mercy.

[Stacia]

Was this feeling just something you felt that one time? If so, perhaps you were picking up on some (dangerous?) vibe in the room?

I'm totally guessing, but what if someone there had a violent encounter outside the room -- w/in his personal life -- or was stewing on some kind of encounter & you were picking up on that? Not that the person would have done anything in class, but perhaps to someone in their personal/private life? A domestic-violence type of situation? Maybe you were reading a "danger" vibe because it was there, just maybe not aimed at you & it's nothing that would have been shown to you or others in the class. This is the type of thing that came to my mind because you said the feeling was so strong, sudden, unexpected, & unsettling.

[klmama]

I think your reaction was normal.  Not universal, but normal.  I went to a women's self-defense class with some friends who were in martial arts training. I think one was already a black belt, so she'd been training for years.  These huge men put on full body padding so we could safely pound on them to defend ourselves and get away when they grabbed us.   When the "attackers" came at us, my friends froze in fear.  They knew what to do from their training, and they even knew the men were kind and very self-controlled, but they were afraid to do anything to defend themselves.  I was scared, too, but then anger suddenly set in and I started punching.  My friends were frustrated with themselves and amazed at how I fought back so well, despite being afraid.  Turns out neither of them had ever had to defend themselves from an older sibling intent on tickling them, like I had.  I guess being extremely ticklish has advantages when it comes to self-defense, lol!  My fear switches to anger really fast, and then I'm able to react.  FWIW, my friends both continued to study martial arts, and one is amazing at self-defense techniques and at sparring now, even though she still really hates all of it.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

No.  Even with being assaulted a number of times in my past, I do not have this as a general reaction.  I will say, though that my fight or flight response tends heavily towards the fight side of things.  In college a guy friend decided to jump out at me on the street at dusk.  He was on the ground before I even knew what I was doing.  (I am not a particularly strong person either.)  And I would have had that same reaction if it had been a girl friend jumping out at me. 

[kiwik]

Women are usually taught  not to beat men (in any area), at least not publically so part of it is probably that.  There have been studies though that showed a woman will usually only correct someone of a lower grade but a man will correct a woman of the same or a few grades higher even though he wouldn't do the same to a man.  

[Donna]

I was the only girl on the "boys" soccer team in high school and later in life, when my boys started taekwondo, I decided to take as well since I was sitting there for many hours a week. I eventually worked my way up to a black belt and taught classes. I've never felt I should not try my best when competing against males. Maybe because I grew up doing it? I don't know. 

[LMD]

Well, I did grow up in a dv house and my instinct to diminish myself in front of male anger is not something I can control.

I thought it was a pretty universal feeling, a lot of men are just plain stronger and our safety in the world is pretty much based on their goodwill... and there certainly is a type of abuser who targets strong women to put them back in their place.

I also agree with Stacia and wonder if your instincts were kicking in about a particular male. I would trust those instincts.

[wintermom]

I trained in martial arts for about 15 years. I would say that the OP's reaction sounds pretty normal for this type of activity. The game seems like a taunting-type of activity, where you have to stay in very close proximity to your opponent and try to do something they don't want happening. And then you are forced to do this with larger men you don't know, who don't know you. You don't know how much self-control any of these men might have in this situation, and you have to trust they won't smack you when they could very easily.

It's a very superficial situation and actually quite a high-risk scenario. One you'd probably never initiate in real-life. Sounds like everyone handled it well. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by wintermom

[Guest]

I don’t think I would cope well in a martial arts class because I strongly dislike aggressive physical contact. (Said as the wife of a former Champion wrestler, lol!) I think it would be enormously anxiety-provoking to have a male darting and grabbing at my midsection. Even though there is little likelihood of getting hurt, I do think it would rear up some protective instinct in me. 

With that said, I don’t think I would like it much better if it was a woman. But I do think - for ME, PERSONALLY - the sexuality aspect would come into the picture instinctively. 

[Carrie12345]

12 hours ago, Garga said:

Is that just me?  Has anyone ever been in a situation like that?  I have never felt this way before last night and it shook me.  Is that something that is personal to me, or something a lot of women might feel?  Is it my generation?  Are younger women or older women more or less likely not to want to Anger The Male?  (I’m 46.) 

 It was really disconcerting and I just had to type this out.

I haven’t dealt with that type of physical situation in adulthood, but I’ve subconsciously (until after) taken gender into account in how I do things, especially in public. Usually with stuff that is quite ridiculous to worry about.

Dumb example - I teased a male friend over grilling skills the other day. It was just the two of us standing there at the time. I can tell you 100% that I wouldn’t have done that if other people had been standing around the grill with us. Maybe I would have if it were dh, but I’m not even certain about that.  I have better examples, but they’d need more backstory to get across and I can’t type a novel right now, lol.

For me, I do think it’s more pronounced with men who are about my age or older. (I’m 42.). I think I find it easier to challenge younger men because I have the “advantage” of age/life experience that can “explain” how I could ever be right/better.

It’s not cool and I don’t like it, but it’s there.

FTR, as a kid and teen, I had no reservations about showing up the boys.  And nothing really happened to change that, other than maybe observing the world more.

[IvyInFlorida]

I do martial arts, and I much prefer to spar with men.  The women mostly just go through the motions with no effort to push themselves (or me).  Teen girls are an exception--one in particular is quite aggressive and I have several bruises from her right now.   I like sparring with men because in general they are always pushing the edge of their abilities,  so we both get better.

When it comes to self defense, however,  I have panicked when grabbed by some of the men.  Even my much beloved favorite instructor can make me instinctively freeze when he corners me in a simulated attack.  And he's basically my equal in height and weight.  It's like there's this difference in body leverage and power I'm suddenly instinctively aware of that makes me go all deer in the headlights.  He says that's why we keep practicing this way, to force us to overcome that response.  

But I don't have any sense of emotional  "better be nice to this man or he'll be mad" going on.  I just want every sparring match to be useful for both parties.

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

No.  Even with being assaulted a number of times in my past, I do not have this as a general reaction.  I will say, though that my fight or flight response tends heavily towards the fight side of things.  In college a guy friend decided to jump out at me on the street at dusk.  He was on the ground before I even knew what I was doing.  (I am not a particularly strong person either.)  And I would have had that same reaction if it had been a girl friend jumping out at me. 

same - I can't do haunted houses for this reason. 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

I have been doing martial arts for four years and have never had this response. We mix ages, rank, and gender in all aspects of our classes and we’re just supposed to mindful of who we’re paired with (paired with an 8yo? Go easy.)  I was quite intimidated to spar at first because I had never done anything like that before but I was intimidated by both the men and the women. Now I’m much more comfortable. I can beat some of the men and have no problem going all out. The only people I really get nervous about sparring now are the teenage boys. They spar so hard! We obviously try to avoid seriously injuring each other when we spar but teenage boys have no idea how to control their new strength. And some of them are so bony! It can be like blocking rebar. I’ve had some pretty decent bruises from the boys but also gotten them from women and girls. 

So basically, no, I haven’t had that “don’t anger the male” response. I like training with men. I can push myself more without being afraid of hurting them like I am some of the women. (And I’m small! Only 5’2”. Some of the women are just...) Maybe because I’m “younger” (36)? Maybe because I grew up with 5 brothers and was often the only girl in groups I was in? 

[MEmama]

I'm the same age and no, I've never felt that kind of reaction. I've been in a number of scary situations involving men, but in far more where men (strangers to me) protected me. I'm a trusting (not naive) person in general.

I'm sorry you felt that fear so strongly. It sounds like perhaps you have some deep issues that welled up at an inconvenient time?

Hopefully the class can help you overcome your reaction. I'd probably talk with the instructor so you can be sure you stay safe if you suddenly feel overwhelmed. 

[Rosie_0801]

4 hours ago, LMD said:

Well, I did grow up in a dv house and my instinct to diminish myself in front of male anger is not something I can control.

 

Mm. I am outright grateful when I am dealing with men I'm allowed to make angry. I wonder if I'll ever outgrow that.

[TravelingChris]

14 hours ago, maize said:

I agree, sounds like instinct.

Males are larger, stronger, often more aggressive. Certainly more dangerous on average.

our deep brains know that.

It is much more complicated than that.  I have no fear of men at all.  I have sparred with men and have played soccer with men and as a defender, had no qualms about defending the goal from a really tall big guy either.  But then, I could also tell that my sparring partners and the soccer guys were not really going to hurt me.  But I come from a knightly family, not the serfs.  I figure I got their assertive natures.

[elegantlion]

I did not have that reaction taking our class. I took it as a college class, so I preferred to be paired with a few people in the class, most of them male. There were a few students who were very tentative about the moves and I honestly thought I'd hurt them. I did end up accidentally hitting a guy in the mouth and made it bleed. He was one of my good friends in the class, so he was okay about it.  

I'm an older woman who has been physically abused in the past, many many years ago. I felt empowered by the class, honestly. I tend to relate better to men in most situations and that played out in the class as well. 

Our instructor did do a class on self-defense, which was extremely helpful. 

There are situations where I am hesitant about groups of men, generally it's men who characteristically resemble the man who abused me either in manner or habit. I had an interesting conversation about male/female habits with a male friend recently. We talked about habits when walking alone - especially if it's near dark, or things I won't do by myself - like I won't go have a drink by myself. 

 

[EmilyGF]

I did karate in college and sparred against men. I found it exhilarating.

But I also have a dad who, in my entire life's memory, never raised his voice. I dated a number of guys, but would break up with a guy or just stop respecting a guy if I ever heard him yell in anger, so I have very little experience with male anger.

ETA: Hubby is just like my dad in this way. He does yell at baseball games. 🙂

Emily

Edited July 3, 2019 by EmilyGF

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

I did karate in college and sparred against men. I found it exhilarating.

But I also have a dad who, in my entire life's memory, never raised his voice. I dated a number of guys, but would break up with a guy or just stop respecting a guy if I ever heard him yell in anger, so I have very little experience with male anger.

ETA: Hubby is just like my dad in this way. He does yell at baseball games. 🙂

Emily

Your dad sounds like my dad.  He would never intentionally hurt another person, physically or emotionally - especially not a female.  My brothers are the same.  With this background, I guess I have a tendency to give men the benefit of the doubt unless there are clear red flags.

[frogger]

I grew up with men who were taught to not hurt women, period, At least my family etc.  I, of course, know women who were abused so I understand the dynamic is different there.

 

I honestly can't remember fearing a man ever, even when I honestly should have but I also have a fight instinct so I think I just lose my ability to think and so maybe that is fear. 

 

I have not trained in martial arts but have gotten in verbal arguments with men on the street even 350 lb. Samoans. Have been blocked from leaving a walk- in freezer from a man. I have certainly had men attempt to intimidate me and still go to fight mode. I certainly deal with that less, well never, now that I live on the good side of town as a suburban mom rather than a teen on the bad side of town working night shift.  

[LMD]

Dp

Edited July 3, 2019 by LMD

[LMD]

9 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Mm. I am outright grateful when I am dealing with men I'm allowed to make angry. I wonder if I'll ever outgrow that.

I don't think I ever will. Dh mostly gets quiet and sad when he's angry at me, doesn't matter, I still react the same way.

Anger also isn't just yelling, I've seen men turn cold/nasty and even jokey/sickly-sweet/nasty, still very dangerous.

[Rosie_0801]

2 hours ago, LMD said:

I don't think I ever will. Dh mostly gets quiet and sad when he's angry at me, doesn't matter, I still react the same way.

Anger also isn't just yelling, I've seen men turn cold/nasty and even jokey/sickly-sweet/nasty, still very dangerous.

 

I've had a lot of the kind and understanding flavoured abuse. 

[rebcoola]

No never.  I joined the wrestling team in jr high so maybe I was to young and dumb then.  Now I’ve been wrestling and doing martial arts for 20 + years so I think usually as the only female I’m pretty desensitized to it.  I can also tell pretty quickly even mma who I can beat/hang with or get my butt handed to me by.