Garga Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Teaching my son to drive is emotionally draining. I am rather down about it today. He's reticent to learn. He is fighting growing up in general. He doesn't want to learn how to drive, but we live in a world where one has to learn eventually. My town is a 1x1 square mile, surrounded by farmland. We live in town. There is no public transportation in town or outside of town. All of the roads are 25 mph and almost no one speeds. I'm not tossing him onto the capital beltway around Washington DC or on an 8-lane highway in Los Angeles. It's a podunk town. When we head out to drive, he gets mean about it. We just got out of the parking lot this week. He's had hours and hours of parking lot driving over a couple of months of lessons. He would have happily stayed in the parking lot forever, but it was time to move on to a road. The book from the DMV said to go around the same block making all left hand turns 10 times in a row, then to go the other way 10 times in a row. It took 2 sessions to get around the block one way and we're now halfway through getting around the block the other way. Each driving lesson is between 15 and 30 minutes and never longer than 30. I stay calm and make no extra comments. I will talk through ahead of time what we're going to do. I'll talk him through a turn (put on the brakes starting about now....turn the wheel now...). I try to keep a balance between talking too much and not talking him through how to do things. But he's just so mean! He'll be coming up on the turn a little too fast and I'll say, firmly, but kindly and matter-of-factly, "Brake now." He'll reply with a hissy, "I am!" But he's not braking enough, so I'll clarify, "Brake more. We're coming at the turn too fast." (Actually, at this point, we've already come to the turn and he's halfway in it, going too fast.) "I know what I'm doing!" Um....no son. You don't know what you're doing. You've never driven on a road in your life. I don't say that out loud, but it's so annoying to hear him say that he knows what he's doing when he clearly doesn't. But I let it go because he's already stressed about driving. He'll take the turns too wide. So, I calmly say, "Turn the wheel," and that gets me a hissy, "I am turning!" Every word I speak is met with a hissy response and he tells me that "he knows what he's doing." But in the next breath, he'll say something about how he doesn't know how fast to turn or he can't judge well how much to press the brake/gas pedal. I tell him that's ok, that I'll talk him through it. Yesterday, we traded places and I drove the turn, talking him through what I was doing as I did it, and then we traded again for him to do it. (He did better after that with his driving, but was still being hissy toward me.) I think the problem is that he doesn't want to learn. We had lessons in September and October after he got his permit and I'd have to insist on the lessons with him grousing about having to do them. "I'm tired from school all day," if it was a weekday, or "I want to relax on Saturday," if it was the weekend. There was no time that was ever "right' to go driving. I got sick of being the one to force the issue, so for most of November and half of December, we didn't have lessons and he never once wanted one. We have started up while we've been on Christmas break, but he's still being rude about it. My goal for this is for him to be a grown up who knows how to drive. I'm hoping that by the time he's 17, he'll be able to drive himself to his karate lessons, which are less than a mile away in our 25 mph town. He's been 16 for 4 months and has had the permit for that long and is barely closer to the license than when he started. I honestly don't want to drive a 17 year old, who has his own car, to his karate lessons. (His grandmother passed her old car on to us. For all intents and purposes it's his car as soon as he can drive it.) I have no leverage. I can't say, "If you don't have a better attitude I won't take you out driving..." because he doesn't want to drive. And as an adult who sees the full picture, I do think it's important for him to learn now that he's old enough to do so. I know he's scared, but at the same time, we can't always give in to fear. Blah. Has anyone else had this? A kid who hates learning and gets mean about it? We were supposed to go driving again today, but I just couldn't deal with the hissing from him. He's not as bad with his dad, but it's winter and dark when DH gets home, so Dad can't take him out driving during the week. I had been taking him out while it was still light during the week. I suppose since he hates learning anyway, he won't care that he only practices for a half hour on Sat and Sun. At this rate, he'll be 18 and still needing rides to his karate lessons. 😄 If I tell him I won't drive him anywhere after he's 17 or 18 or so, he just won't do things. I know this kid. He'll just stay home and play Nintendo or something. He'll give up karate and going to church youth and everything. He's a homebody (as am I), who doesn't want to grow up and is scared of driving. Threatening not to take him places will just mean he stays home and does nothing. Anyone else have this problem? Is my kid the only one who won't learn to drive? When I was young, you got the permit at 15 and could get the license at 16. The second I woke up on my 16th birthday, I was dragging my mother out of the house to head to do the DMV for my license and by that afternoon, I was driving to my friend's house and going out to dinner and a movie. So, I don't get it at all. I cherished my freedom and being able to be alone in the car and going wherever I wanted to without having to depend on Mom to get there. So, I don't get why he isn't interested at all in learning. I'm trying to be a good mother. Is it being a good mother to give in to the fear and wait until he's older? Or is it being a good mother to encourage him to face his fears, especially in this gentle environment of a small town and low speeds? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK_Mom4 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I had one who hated learning to drive. He still hates driving. He lives on his own and will stay home rather than drive anywhere if it isn’t mandatory. I suggested he move to an urban area with good public transport, but he hates those too. My best guess is that he will marry someone who will take over all the driving for him some day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 All 3 of my children were reluctant drivers. Only one has Aspergers. My oldest dd didn't get her permit until she was 17 and she got her license at 18. I think she only did it because we helped her buy a car. My ds with Aspergers got his permit at age 17 and we tried 3 times to teach him to drive. They didn't last more than a week of trying when he would get so mad and refuse to go out. So I let it go. I figured if he doesn't feel ready to drive, I"m not going to force him out on the road. Cars are killer machines regardless of how easy it seems to drive one. The smallest mistake can be fatal. He is now 22 and just got his license. He was the one who came to me and asked if we could start driving. He had a better attitude, was highly motivated and did much better than the previous tries. My youngest dd will be 21 in March. She got her permit when she was 18 and has absolutely no interest in learning to drive. I paid for professional lessons hoping that would motivate her but she still didn't want to practice. At school she uses lyft and uber a lot. We're okay with that. She'll drive when she really needs to. Just my .02. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali in OR Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 My older dd wasn't exactly anxious to drive and would have happily let me drive her everywhere forever. But that was not an option for me! Not sure what options are available near your small town, but this situation is just screaming for a third party solution. Both of my dds took a driver ed class with actual drives from our community college for a couple hundred dollars. They learned more than I could have taught them and the big advantage was that passing the course meant they didn't have to do a drive at the DMV for their license--just a written test. Once that older dd had her license, she drove herself to school and ballet and gradually became a more independent person. It definitely helped her grow up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 24 minutes ago, Garga said: Teaching my son to drive is emotionally draining. I am rather down about it today. He's reticent to learn. He is fighting growing up in general. He doesn't want to learn how to drive, but we live in a world where one has to learn eventually. My town is a 1x1 square mile, surrounded by farmland. We live in town. There is no public transportation in town or outside of town. All of the roads are 25 mph and almost no one speeds. I'm not tossing him onto the capital beltway around Washington DC or on an 8-lane highway in Los Angeles. It's a podunk town. When we head out to drive, he gets mean about it. We just got out of the parking lot this week. He's had hours and hours of parking lot driving over a couple of months of lessons. He would have happily stayed in the parking lot forever, but it was time to move on to a road. The book from the DMV said to go around the same block making all left hand turns 10 times in a row, then to go the other way 10 times in a row. It took 2 sessions to get around the block one way and we're now halfway through getting around the block the other way. Each driving lesson is between 15 and 30 minutes and never longer than 30. I stay calm and make no extra comments. I will talk through ahead of time what we're going to do. I'll talk him through a turn (put on the brakes starting about now....turn the wheel now...). I try to keep a balance between talking too much and not talking him through how to do things. But he's just so mean! He'll be coming up on the turn a little too fast and I'll say, firmly, but kindly and matter-of-factly, "Brake now." He'll reply with a hissy, "I am!" But he's not braking enough, so I'll clarify, "Brake more. We're coming at the turn too fast." (Actually, at this point, we've already come to the turn and he's halfway in it, going too fast.) "I know what I'm doing!" Um....no son. You don't know what you're doing. You've never driven on a road in your life. I don't say that out loud, but it's so annoying to hear him say that he knows what he's doing when he clearly doesn't. But I let it go because he's already stressed about driving. He'll take the turns too wide. So, I calmly say, "Turn the wheel," and that gets me a hissy, "I am turning!" Every word I speak is met with a hissy response and he tells me that "he knows what he's doing." But in the next breath, he'll say something about how he doesn't know how fast to turn or he can't judge well how much to press the brake/gas pedal. I tell him that's ok, that I'll talk him through it. Yesterday, we traded places and I drove the turn, talking him through what I was doing as I did it, and then we traded again for him to do it. (He did better after that with his driving, but was still being hissy toward me.) I think the problem is that he doesn't want to learn. We had lessons in September and October after he got his permit and I'd have to insist on the lessons with him grousing about having to do them. "I'm tired from school all day," if it was a weekday, or "I want to relax on Saturday," if it was the weekend. There was no time that was ever "right' to go driving. I got sick of being the one to force the issue, so for most of November and half of December, we didn't have lessons and he never once wanted one. We have started up while we've been on Christmas break, but he's still being rude about it. My goal for this is for him to be a grown up who knows how to drive. I'm hoping that by the time he's 17, he'll be able to drive himself to his karate lessons, which are less than a mile away in our 25 mph town. He's been 16 for 4 months and has had the permit for that long and is barely closer to the license than when he started. I honestly don't want to drive a 17 year old, who has his own car, to his karate lessons. (His grandmother passed her old car on to us. For all intents and purposes it's his car as soon as he can drive it.) I have no leverage. I can't say, "If you don't have a better attitude I won't take you out driving..." because he doesn't want to drive. And as an adult who sees the full picture, I do think it's important for him to learn now that he's old enough to do so. I know he's scared, but at the same time, we can't always give in to fear. Blah. Has anyone else had this? A kid who hates learning and gets mean about it? We were supposed to go driving again today, but I just couldn't deal with the hissing from him. He's not as bad with his dad, but it's winter and dark when DH gets home, so Dad can't take him out driving during the week. I had been taking him out while it was still light during the week. I suppose since he hates learning anyway, he won't care that he only practices for a half hour on Sat and Sun. At this rate, he'll be 18 and still needing rides to his karate lessons. 😄 If I tell him I won't drive him anywhere after he's 17 or 18 or so, he just won't do things. I know this kid. He'll just stay home and play Nintendo or something. He'll give up karate and going to church youth and everything. He's a homebody (as am I), who doesn't want to grow up and is scared of driving. Threatening not to take him places will just mean he stays home and does nothing. Anyone else have this problem? Is my kid the only one who won't learn to drive? When I was young, you got the permit at 15 and could get the license at 16. The second I woke up on my 16th birthday, I was dragging my mother out of the house to head to do the DMV for my license and by that afternoon, I was driving to my friend's house and going out to dinner and a movie. So, I don't get it at all. I cherished my freedom and being able to be alone in the car and going wherever I wanted to without having to depend on Mom to get there. So, I don't get why he isn't interested at all in learning. I'm trying to be a good mother. Is it being a good mother to give in to the fear and wait until he's older? Or is it being a good mother to encourage him to face his fears, especially in this gentle environment of a small town and low speeds? Permit was 14 in my state and a license at 16. I was like you...got my permit the day I turned 14 and my license the day I turned 16. I see more and more kids these days not driving. I don't get it. I mean, I do realize there are some kids with issues that make it more difficult...but I see a lot of NT kids who just don't care about it. And I live very rural! Try not to let his meaness get to you. Both my boys had attitude like that but I think it is just fear and defensiveness. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) My kids and all my nieces and nephews are reluctant drivers, ages 21-31. Most, but not all, have licenses but some of those still avoid driving. It's an interesting generational shift. My anxious dd(ya) has not learned at all yet but when she was almost 16 we were there when a friend was killed by a car. It understandably affected her desire to drive. She recently expressed potential willingness which is a big step. With your ds can you monetize this somehow? Start with a sum and each lesson costs $x and each hiss costs $y? If he gets to zero it comes from his pocket? This way there's incentive but he can't get out of driving. His permit will expire so there's a deadline...hang in there! Eta: he gets to keep whatever is left if he learns quickly and no longer needs lessons and no longer hisses. Edited January 3, 2019 by happi duck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikiSC Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 My DS, 16, is the same way! We bought him a car from a family friend thinking he would be so eager to drive, but nope! I paid for him to take driver's ed. He has only had one driving session. Every time I suggest that he drives he has an excuse. I'm very frustrated because I had my restricted license when I was 15. He would happily let me drive him and do everything for him, sigh. We live in a rural area so driving is a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) I had one toe-tap . . . . . (mom, no one has manual transmissions now, you don't need to know how to drive one. . . . . kid car was a 4sp manual. now - everyone has an automatic, but they can drive a manual. and dudeling still has to learn to drive . . . .) what worked. He had places he wanted to go, and didn't want to take public transportation. I wouldn't have taken him otherwise. so - it was driving practice (and he had to have enough practice to be considered safe on the street). he wasn't interested in getting a driver's license until he had a job lined up that was a two hour bus commute EACH WAY, or 20 minutes up the freeway. it was motivation. thing is - he's one who actually likes to drive. now. he would argue with dh about who was going to drive. . . . and push dh out of the driver's seat. (he's a good driver.) eta: I did take my mom's car (automatic) at the time - so he was much more willing to drive it to get where he needed to go. and I wasn't going to take him - if he wanted to go, he had to drive there. my other reluctant driver (who still doesn't care to drive if he doesn't have to), was more cooperative when we went out later in the evening when there weren't as many people on the roads. Edited January 3, 2019 by gardenmom5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Can you have him walk to karate instead of driving him? Tell him that he has x months to learn to drive, and then rides stop unless you were going that way anyway? If that would motivate him or at least not make your life harder, then you could implement a rule like "the lesson ends when you snap at me three times." Good luck, though. I remember learning to drive being so stressful and my mom trying to have a relaxing tone, but I could hear the stress in her voice, which felt like judgement to my stressed-out self. We were both trying to be cool, calm, and kind, but neither one of us was fully successful. I'm sure I did my own share of hissing. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, xahm said: Can you have him walk to karate instead of driving him? Tell him that he has x months to learn to drive, and then rides stop unless you were going that way anyway? If that would motivate him or at least not make your life harder, then you could implement a rule like "the lesson ends when you snap at me three times." Good luck, though. I remember learning to drive being so stressful and my mom trying to have a relaxing tone, but I could hear the stress in her voice, which felt like judgement to my stressed-out self. We were both trying to be cool, calm, and kind, but neither one of us was fully successful. I'm sure I did my own share of hissing. or they can be driving there practice, you're not the driver. (even if that means you take the long way because they're not ready for the freeway) that's basically what worked with mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Mine hasn’t gotten his permit yet at almost 17. I think there’s a lot of anxiety. I hope he will soon, and then I plan to outsource lessons to a driving school. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I'd quit the lessons. My rules were that unless I am telling them to do something dangerous, they were to do it, and do it without back talk or nasty comments. And I also told them that I would be repeating myself, over and over and over bc I'd rather them OVERlearn, and hear me in their heads than not say something and let bad habits develop. When kids got mouthy, that was the end of the lesson. Being a decent person to someone who loves you and is helping you is more important than a license, IMO. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 My 14 yos flat out told me they were just going to wait for self-driving cars. I don’t anticipate that they’ll ever learn. We live in a city though. But statistically, this generation is all reluctant to drive. Yeah. It’s weird. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Pay for a lot of lessons. Don't drive him anywhere that he wants to go. Have him do the driving (obviously with a licensed adult). We live in a similar sounding town. My dd's only drove in town, and usually still with an adult in the car, for almost a year after they were licensed. They were nervous and I gave them the time they needed. Funnily enough, passing their test gave them a confidence boost, so even though they still didn't drive by themselves, they just had a more confident air about them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 A lot of kids don’t want to learn to drive these days. A LOT of them. My son was afraid of driving, full of anxiety (same as me!) and was not motivated to learn to drive. I’m not saying this will work with your son but for me, it just HAD to be done. Like going to the dentist or getting shots before college. I empathized with his nervousness but I also said I’m not going to cart his butt all over when it is well within his grasp to learn and become licensed. We have a few object lessons among people we know and I told him I am not going to do like ——‘s mom and drive him to college, drive him to his job, drive him to see his friends. (Also, I required my kids to get jobs as well. I didn’t belabor the point, but as summer would approach, I would say, “You need to start applying to jobs...you’re going to need money for things and you can’t spend your summer laying on the couch...”) He did get over it. He even drives a stick shift now; that is his regular truck. And he goes to school around the beltway, so at some point, he accepted that particular challenge. (I don’t even like driving on it!) I do get where it’s a big drain on you, though. I would rather potty-train a fleet of toddlers than teach one kid to drive. I do think you are well within your rights to say, “Son, I know this is stressful, but you can’t treat me like trash because you’re mad that this is stressful.” Because really, Garga, that’s also a skill he needs to learn - not to be a tool when you’re stressed. 😄 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, unsinkable said: When kids got mouthy, that was the end of the lesson. Being a decent person to someone who loves you and is helping you is more important than a license, IMO. You know, I think that’s what’s been bugging me since yesterday. I can see teens getting hissy when you’re giving them a chore like cleaning the litter boxes. But when you’re trying to help them? Ooo. It grates. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) *I* was reluctant to drive and didn’t learn until it was absolutely necessary, in my 30s (moved from NYC to an area where if I didn’t see the mailman I would not see any other unrelated human all day. Truly, i made more eye contact with deer than any fellow humans those couple years. Anyway, it’s my personal opinion teens have zero business commanding a missile which weighs over a ton? unless absolutely necessary. Even after I learned, I would not drive my kids for months. I’d happily appoint myself driver forever more or add Uber to my budget. Eta that lessons from a loved one are a no go. Nope. I needed someone that was not DH and who had their brake pedal... Edited January 3, 2019 by madteaparty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Quill said: I do get where it’s a big drain on you, though. I would rather potty-train a fleet of toddlers than teach one kid to drive. I do think you are well within your rights to say, “Son, I know this is stressful, but you can’t treat me like trash because you’re mad that this is stressful.” Because really, Garga, that’s also a skill he needs to learn - not to be a tool when you’re stressed. 😄 Yeah. I think this is what prompted me to start the post more than anything. It befuddles me that young people don’t want to drive, but the mean streak that comes out during the lessons is just more than I can take. It’s good to know that other people have dealt with it. And I hadn’t thought of paying for driving lessons. And if they cost an arm and a leg, then maybe we’ll just let him take forever to learn and his dad can do all the lessons on the weekends. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrellyMama Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I have one who is reluctant. Honestly, I bribed him. He got Driver's Ed done, and Wil have his license in March. There just isn't another option where we live, you learn to drive. I told him to move somewhere with public transportation when he leaves the house and he won't have to drive again. Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, madteaparty said: *I* was reluctant to drive and didn’t learn until it was absolutely necessary, in my 30s (moved from NYC to an area where if I didn’t see the mailman I would not see any other unrelated human all day. Truly, i made more eye contact with deer than any fellow humans those couple years. Anyway, it’s my personal opinion teens have zero business commanding a missile which weighs over a ton? unless absolutely necessary. Even after I learned, I would not drive my kids for months. I’d happily appoint myself driver forever more or add Uber to my budget. Yes, there’s this, too. Since he’s so very nervous about learning, I wonder why I’m forcing the issue. Cars are dangerous. And at the same time, I think it’s important to know how to do it, even if he doesn’t drive a lot outside of the bounds of town. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Garga said: Yeah. I think this is what prompted me to start the post more than anything. It befuddles me that young people don’t want to drive, but the mean streak that comes out during the lessons is just more than I can take. It’s good to know that other people have dealt with it. And I hadn’t thought of paying for driving lessons. And if they cost an arm and a leg, then maybe we’ll just let him take forever to learn and his dad can do all the lessons on the weekends. The interesting part is that in Maryland, you have to have such-and-such number of classroom hourse and you have to have I think six? Hours in-car on the road with a driving instructor. Then, 60 hours driving on a permit with an adult. So, in a way, it’s kind of nice that Maryland requires the classes. (Although I understand it is expensive and that is hard sometimes.) Because once they are in a class, they are on a trajectory that sort of steers them forward, anxiety and reluctance notwithstanding. (The school my kids attended had an option - for a couple thousand dollars - where you could pay the instructor to fulfill all sixty road hours. This was one of those times I thought it would be nice to win one of those giant lotteries. ;)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Ds had no desire to learn and we also lived in a podunk town when he turned 16. It was a moot point mostly because I couldn't afford car insurance on a 16 year old new driver either. He finally got his license the month before he turned 21. His car insurance in affordable, he has his own car that's paid for and we split the insurance, which is about $600 a year. He was anxious about driving and I wouldn't have pushed the point even if we could afford insurance. I know so many young adults his age that still are not driving. Cars are dangerous. We had a rash of 16 - 18 years old get killed a few years ago from driving stupid while not wearing seat belts. Ds has been getting tips on driving from me for many years, his dad actually took him out driving and to get his license. Can you hire a driving instructor, that's how I learned and it took all the emotion out of it. Otherwise, I'd probably step from the lessons for a bit. He may not be ready and not sure how to tell you or admit that he's not ready. It's a huge responsibility and I don't think 15 or 16 is a magic age where everyone is ready. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 15 minutes ago, Garga said: You know, I think that’s what’s been bugging me since yesterday. I can see teens getting hissy when you’re giving them a chore like cleaning the litter boxes. But when you’re trying to help them? Ooo. It grates. Yes, and it is particularly awful for me to be trapped in car with someone verbally mistreating me. It's not an easy choice, I understand. But it is one of my rare take no prisoners moments with my kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 17 minutes ago, Garga said: Yeah. I think this is what prompted me to start the post more than anything. It befuddles me that young people don’t want to drive, but the mean streak that comes out during the lessons is just more than I can take. It’s good to know that other people have dealt with it. And I hadn’t thought of paying for driving lessons. And if they cost an arm and a leg, then maybe we’ll just let him take forever to learn and his dad can do all the lessons on the weekends. Ballpark here is ten 45 minute lessons for about $425-$500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjzimmer1 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Garga said: Teaching my son to drive is emotionally draining. I am rather down about it today. He's reticent to learn. He is fighting growing up in general. He doesn't want to learn how to drive, but we live in a world where one has to learn eventually. My town is a 1x1 square mile, surrounded by farmland. We live in town. There is no public transportation in town or outside of town. All of the roads are 25 mph and almost no one speeds. I'm not tossing him onto the capital beltway around Washington DC or on an 8-lane highway in Los Angeles. It's a podunk town. When we head out to drive, he gets mean about it. We just got out of the parking lot this week. He's had hours and hours of parking lot driving over a couple of months of lessons. He would have happily stayed in the parking lot forever, but it was time to move on to a road. The book from the DMV said to go around the same block making all left hand turns 10 times in a row, then to go the other way 10 times in a row. It took 2 sessions to get around the block one way and we're now halfway through getting around the block the other way. Each driving lesson is between 15 and 30 minutes and never longer than 30. I stay calm and make no extra comments. I will talk through ahead of time what we're going to do. I'll talk him through a turn (put on the brakes starting about now....turn the wheel now...). I try to keep a balance between talking too much and not talking him through how to do things. But he's just so mean! He'll be coming up on the turn a little too fast and I'll say, firmly, but kindly and matter-of-factly, "Brake now." He'll reply with a hissy, "I am!" But he's not braking enough, so I'll clarify, "Brake more. We're coming at the turn too fast." (Actually, at this point, we've already come to the turn and he's halfway in it, going too fast.) "I know what I'm doing!" Um....no son. You don't know what you're doing. You've never driven on a road in your life. I don't say that out loud, but it's so annoying to hear him say that he knows what he's doing when he clearly doesn't. But I let it go because he's already stressed about driving. He'll take the turns too wide. So, I calmly say, "Turn the wheel," and that gets me a hissy, "I am turning!" Every word I speak is met with a hissy response and he tells me that "he knows what he's doing." But in the next breath, he'll say something about how he doesn't know how fast to turn or he can't judge well how much to press the brake/gas pedal. I tell him that's ok, that I'll talk him through it. Yesterday, we traded places and I drove the turn, talking him through what I was doing as I did it, and then we traded again for him to do it. (He did better after that with his driving, but was still being hissy toward me.) I think the problem is that he doesn't want to learn. We had lessons in September and October after he got his permit and I'd have to insist on the lessons with him grousing about having to do them. "I'm tired from school all day," if it was a weekday, or "I want to relax on Saturday," if it was the weekend. There was no time that was ever "right' to go driving. I got sick of being the one to force the issue, so for most of November and half of December, we didn't have lessons and he never once wanted one. We have started up while we've been on Christmas break, but he's still being rude about it. My goal for this is for him to be a grown up who knows how to drive. I'm hoping that by the time he's 17, he'll be able to drive himself to his karate lessons, which are less than a mile away in our 25 mph town. He's been 16 for 4 months and has had the permit for that long and is barely closer to the license than when he started. I honestly don't want to drive a 17 year old, who has his own car, to his karate lessons. (His grandmother passed her old car on to us. For all intents and purposes it's his car as soon as he can drive it.) I have no leverage. I can't say, "If you don't have a better attitude I won't take you out driving..." because he doesn't want to drive. And as an adult who sees the full picture, I do think it's important for him to learn now that he's old enough to do so. I know he's scared, but at the same time, we can't always give in to fear. Blah. Has anyone else had this? A kid who hates learning and gets mean about it? We were supposed to go driving again today, but I just couldn't deal with the hissing from him. He's not as bad with his dad, but it's winter and dark when DH gets home, so Dad can't take him out driving during the week. I had been taking him out while it was still light during the week. I suppose since he hates learning anyway, he won't care that he only practices for a half hour on Sat and Sun. At this rate, he'll be 18 and still needing rides to his karate lessons. 😄 If I tell him I won't drive him anywhere after he's 17 or 18 or so, he just won't do things. I know this kid. He'll just stay home and play Nintendo or something. He'll give up karate and going to church youth and everything. He's a homebody (as am I), who doesn't want to grow up and is scared of driving. Threatening not to take him places will just mean he stays home and does nothing. Anyone else have this problem? Is my kid the only one who won't learn to drive? When I was young, you got the permit at 15 and could get the license at 16. The second I woke up on my 16th birthday, I was dragging my mother out of the house to head to do the DMV for my license and by that afternoon, I was driving to my friend's house and going out to dinner and a movie. So, I don't get it at all. I cherished my freedom and being able to be alone in the car and going wherever I wanted to without having to depend on Mom to get there. So, I don't get why he isn't interested at all in learning. I'm trying to be a good mother. Is it being a good mother to give in to the fear and wait until he's older? Or is it being a good mother to encourage him to face his fears, especially in this gentle environment of a small town and low speeds? Mine did (and still does hate driving) He only went for his temps because his friends goaded him into it (he was 18 1/2) and we practice for a couple of weeks and he quit and then he had that thing for over 2 years with no driving at all. Pulling teeth would have been easier than practice driving. Last summer I had finally had enough driving him around and told him we were practicing for 30 minutes whether he liked it or not. I scheduled his test and told him he that much time to get ready. I was going to bill him for the test if he failed and then start charging him to take him places. I was very serious about him learning (he was 20). He actually had to pull over a couple of times and calm down because he was so stressed about driving (and this kid has never had anxiety/stress issues in his life but he just really hates driving). But he did pass and now can drive himself places. He's not thrilled with driving but is slowly learning to appreciate the freedom of not having to check with me every time he wants to go somewhere. That said, left turns are the thing that my son hates the most (even more than parallel parking). Personally I'd start with something else, right turns are much easier than left. But I didn't have a particular agenda with practicing skills till much later in the process. The first 30+ hours of street practice were just getting in the car and let him get a better feel. We stuck to subdivision because he liked the slower speed but he got to decide if he was turning left or right or going straight or going through a roundabout or turning into the circle. Yeah I would still have to get pointers but as much as possible I just let him drive and get a feel for the vehicle. He needed a really long time before he was ready for targeted practice on any specific skill. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) I wonder if he needs more parking lot practice to get familiar with pressure on brake needed for stopping at different distances and more turning practice before trying on a real road. The professional driving school wants beginners very familiar with braking and turning within a parking lot before they work with the students. Maybe traffic cones could help to give a sense of amount of pressure needed to achieve stopping at a certain point. When we get to that point (unless professional lessons mean he is way past this) my plan is to go with just a straight drive on road, no turns at all neither left nor right first time he does a street. That is, I’ll choose a place where he can drive forward along a street with good visibility , then trade places and I’ll 3 point turn car around, and he can drive the straight forward road back again. Repeating Until that’s mastered and comfortable. Edited January 4, 2019 by Pen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Garga said: All of the roads are 25 mph and almost no one speeds. I'm not tossing him onto the capital beltway around Washington DC or on an 8-lane highway in Los Angeles. It's a podunk town. When we head out to drive, he gets mean about it. We just got out of the parking lot this week. He's had hours and hours of parking lot driving over a couple of months of lessons. He would have happily stayed in the parking lot forever, but it was time to move on to a road. The book from the DMV said to go around the same block making all left hand turns 10 times in a row, then to go the other way 10 times in a row. It took 2 sessions to get around the block one way and we're now halfway through getting around the block the other way. Each driving lesson is between 15 and 30 minutes and never longer than 30. But he's just so mean! He'll be coming up on the turn a little too fast and I'll say, firmly, but kindly and matter-of-factly, "Brake now." He'll reply with a hissy, "I am!" But he's not braking enough, so I'll clarify, "Brake more. We're coming at the turn too fast." (Actually, at this point, we've already come to the turn and he's halfway in it, going too fast.) "I know what I'm doing!" Um....no son. You don't know what you're doing. You've never driven on a road in your life. I don't say that out loud, but it's so annoying to hear him say that he knows what he's doing when he clearly doesn't. But I let it go because he's already stressed about driving. He'll take the turns too wide. So, I calmly say, "Turn the wheel," and that gets me a hissy, "I am turning!" Every word I speak is met with a hissy response and he tells me that "he knows what he's doing." But in the next breath, he'll say something about how he doesn't know how fast to turn or he can't judge well how much to press the brake/gas pedal. I tell him that's ok, that I'll talk him through it. Yesterday, we traded places and I drove the turn, talking him through what I was doing as I did it, and then we traded again for him to do it. (He did better after that with his driving, but was still being hissy toward me.) My goal for this is for him to be a grown up who knows how to drive. I'm hoping that by the time he's 17, he'll be able to drive himself to his karate lessons, which are less than a mile away in our 25 mph town. I have no leverage. I can't say, "If you don't have a better attitude I won't take you out driving..." because he doesn't want to drive. And as an adult who sees the full picture, I do think it's important for him to learn now that he's old enough to do so. I know he's scared, but at the same time, we can't always give in to fear. Blah. Has anyone else had this? A kid who hates learning and gets mean about it? If I tell him I won't drive him anywhere after he's 17 or 18 or so, he just won't do things. I know this kid. I'm trying to be a good mother. Is it being a good mother to give in to the fear and wait until he's older? Or is it being a good mother to encourage him to face his fears, especially in this gentle environment of a small town and low speeds? I was your kid, and I didn't get my permit until I was 17. Yours is ahead, lol! I also lived in a podunk town with farmland all around. I don't think I was as snippy, but I did have a big mismatch in expectations with my parents. You are doing a good job, but I have some suggestions. Just don't take the suggestions to mean that it's you. 🙂 Could you pare down your mid-turn instructions with something like, "sharper on the steering wheel?" Your dialog and his post-turn comments make me think that he is feeling like you're telling him he's not turning. And, he's concentrating, so he's not thinking about your feelings, just that you're telling him to turn, and he's turning. If you pare it down to something really specific like "heavier break," I think he'll realize you KNOW he's turning, and also demonstrate that you heard him say that he doesn't know how much to turn. Just a possibility. I could be reading into it too much. Boys like to be competent, or at least my older one does. I am really not okay with not being competent, and that is half of why I hate learning things I am already anxious about or things that are dangerous or things that involve people noticing me while I'm learning. I feel like I am performing otherwise. Snippy is anxiety in words. I'll say it again, snippy is anxiety in words. I have a kid that gets just like this, though he is on the spectrum (and honestly, a DH who is like this too with just ADHD). So, if there is ANY lag in executive functioning, and you already know you have anxiety, the EF problems will make this much worse. If there is diagnostically significant ADHD, I would seriously consider meds (read Barkley on unmedicated ADHD and driving). Some people take meds just for specific tasks (multi-tasking stuff or tedious stuff) and get by just fine for most of life without the meds. It could ease the cognitive load. Your goals might need to move on the timeline, but I think you are spot for making him learn now--just try to keep the timeline and expectations to yourself. I would consider rewarding him in some small, "I appreciate your effort" way when he does x number of sessions. He's seriously anxious about this, I think. And feeling stupid. He might also feel really bad about snipping and not really know what to do about it. Do you have something like a nice rural park he could drive in? We had a lot of state forest land and then also a super nice rural park that wasn't busy during the week. It was basically like a real road and town, but it was often empty. It had stop signs, parking, actual roads, but it was all empty. I loved driving there. Daylight is getting longer, maybe your DH can do more sessions as it lengthens. I had the problem of my mom and the driver's ed teacher being "scare the crap out of you" loud and shrill about things like a bunny hopping across the road so far away that it would be gone before you even thought of getting near it and my dad wanting to parallel park on the first day out. You are striking a good balance, and I think you'll be okay. I am so sorry for the hissy fits and snippiness. It is insulting, and yet, it's unlikely meant to be so. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 50 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said: That said, left turns are the thing that my son hates the most (even more than parallel parking). Personally I'd start with something else, right turns are much easier than left. But I didn't have a particular agenda with practicing skills till much later in the process. The first 30+ hours of street practice were just getting in the car and let him get a better feel. We stuck to subdivision because he liked the slower speed but he got to decide if he was turning left or right or going straight or going through a roundabout or turning into the circle. Yeah I would still have to get pointers but as much as possible I just let him drive and get a feel for the vehicle. He needed a really long time before he was ready for targeted practice on any specific skill. Just to clarify to everyone and not to contradict you: I wondered about the left hand turn thing, too. I think the book recommended left hand turns first because it’s on the driver’s side. In the parking lot, he found left hand turns easy—he could look out the side window and see where he was in relation to things as he was turning in that direction. But the right hand turns are toward the passenger side and the driver can’t look out the side window and see where they are in relation to the curb/objects. So, it’s harder when you’re new. Now, if there’s traffic and you’re crossing a road, then left hand turns are much, much harder. But we are driving on an almost empty side road in a neighborhood. During the entire 30 minutes we’re there, we’re lucky if 5 cars are on the road with us. There is literally no traffic. Just a few people who might be leaving their own driveways. We go around a residental block, over and over. The exact same block. It’s in the middle of the day and the people who live there are mostly at work. 30 minutes ago, Pen said: I wonder if he needs more parking lot practice to get familiar with pressure on brake needed for stopping at different distances and more turning practice before trying on a real road. The professional driving school wants beginners very familiar with braking and turning within a parking lot before they work with the students. Maybe traffic cones could help to give a sense of amount of pressure needed to achieve stopping at a certain point. When we get to that point (unless professional lessons mean he is way past this) my plan is to go with just a straight drive on road, no turns at all neither left nor right first time he does a street. That is, I’ll choose a place where he can drive forward along a street with good visibility , then trade places and I’ll 3 point turn car around, and he can drive the straight forward road back again. Repeating Until that’s mastered and comfortable. Again, not to contradict, but to explain: We did work on braking and turning in the parking lot for hours, but the problem was that he can’t get up to 25 mph in a parking lot. They’re just not big enough. He got up to 25 mph on the residental road for the first time and to him it felt like he was going 80. Driving at 25 mph was harrowing for him. In parking lots he could get up to maybe 8-10 mph before the lot ended. And we turned, but the parking lot was empty. On real roads there are curbs and some parked cars to navigate around. There is no stretch of road that he could drive 25 mph on straight that wouldn’t have either traffic or stop signs or turns on it after just a block or two. And traffic would totally freak him out at this point. Whenever one of those 5 cars shows up in our 30 minutes of driving on the side-residental road we’ve been on, he makes anxious noises and I have to talk him through what to do (they’ve stopped at the stop sign, so you can go....they’re so far away that you don’t have to worry about that car...they’re turning into their driveway, so you can keep going past them...). It would be lovely if there could be a slow 25 mph road that doesn’t end in a stop sign every block and then a turn one way or another. We do have long country roads, but they bump up to 45 mph the second you hit the edge of town and since he gets so antsy at 25 mph, I feel it would be dangerous for him to be on a 45 mph road at this point, especially if he had someone behind him or coming at him from the other way at 45 mph. So, not contradicting, but we’re really in the easiest, gentlest place we could be right now for a first time driver. Edited January 4, 2019 by Garga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, kbutton said: He'll be coming up on the turn a little too fast and I'll say, firmly, but kindly and matter-of-factly, "Brake now." He'll reply with a hissy, "I am!" But he's not braking enough, so I'll clarify, "Brake more. We're coming at the turn too fast." (Actually, at this point, we've already come to the turn and he's halfway in it, going too fast.) "I know what I'm doing!" P.S. He could be very literal about this--like, he knows he's braking, AND he knows it's not working. But it's not easy to communicate that and listen for more instructions, and...you get the idea. It's just a LOT at one time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Any chance he has visual/spatial or depth-perception issues? They would make moving fast a lot worse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, kbutton said: Could you pare down your mid-turn instructions with something like, "sharper on the steering wheel?" Your dialog and his post-turn comments make me think that he is feeling like you're telling him he's not turning. And, he's concentrating, so he's not thinking about your feelings, just that you're telling him to turn, and he's turning. If you pare it down to something really specific like "heavier break," I think he'll realize you KNOW he's turning, and also demonstrate that you heard him say that he doesn't know how much to turn. Just a possibility. I could be reading into it too much. Boys like to be competent, or at least my older one does. I am really not okay with not being competent, and that is half of why I hate learning things I am already anxious about or things that are dangerous or things that involve people noticing me while I'm learning. I feel like I am performing otherwise. Snippy is anxiety in words. I'll say it again, snippy is anxiety in words. I have a kid that gets just like this, though he is on the spectrum (and honestly, a DH who is like this too with just ADHD). So, if there is ANY lag in executive functioning, and you already know you have anxiety, the EF problems will make this much worse. If there is diagnostically significant ADHD, I would seriously consider meds (read Barkley on unmedicated ADHD and driving). Some people take meds just for specific tasks (multi-tasking stuff or tedious stuff) and get by just fine for most of life without the meds. It could ease the cognitive load. Your goals might need to move on the timeline, but I think you are spot for making him learn now--just try to keep the timeline and expectations to yourself. I would consider rewarding him in some small, "I appreciate your effort" way when he does x number of sessions. He's seriously anxious about this, I think. And feeling stupid. He might also feel really bad about snipping and not really know what to do about it. Do you have something like a nice rural park he could drive in? We had a lot of state forest land and then also a super nice rural park that wasn't busy during the week. It was basically like a real road and town, but it was often empty. It had stop signs, parking, actual roads, but it was all empty. I loved driving there. Daylight is getting longer, maybe your DH can do more sessions as it lengthens. I had the problem of my mom and the driver's ed teacher being "scare the crap out of you" loud and shrill about things like a bunny hopping across the road so far away that it would be gone before you even thought of getting near it and my dad wanting to parallel park on the first day out. You are striking a good balance, and I think you'll be okay. I am so sorry for the hissy fits and snippiness. It is insulting, and yet, it's unlikely meant to be so. This is all very good. After I wrote my post, I was thinking, “When I say “brake” I mean “more brake” but obviously, he thinks I mean “start to brake” which he *is* doing.” So, I think you’re right that he thinks I’m telling him to do something he’s already doing. And I was realizing that his snippiness is anxiety. He does have ADHD and he is on meds, but maybe they’re wearing off too much by the time we drive? We drive after school and they start to wear off in the late afternoon/early evening. I live near Gettysburg and there are lots of smooth roads through the battlefields. I’m going to check them out in the next couple of days and see what the traffic is like there. There are a couple of spots where the road narrows through some big rocks that squigs me out to drive around (I always feel like I’m going to go off the road in that spot), but if we can avoid that area, it might be the perfect place to drive. It’s a bit cold out, so there are very few tourists would want to wander around battlefields right now. The nice thing about driving through the Gburg battlefields is that most cars start to drive at a crawl because they’re so busy looking out the windows at the scenery. Everyone expects you to drive a little wonky through Gettysburg National Military Park! I’ve been behind cars going 10 mph because they’re looking all around. (Hmm...the park might be closed because of the gov’t shutdown, but when it’s back open, I’ll check it out.). So if he’s driving a little slow, no one will care. Edited January 4, 2019 by Garga 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) Karate lessons are less than a mile away? Why isn't he already walking there or biking? Even if there isn't proper sidewalk infrastructure, if everybody is legitimately 25mph on the roads then he should be just fine going there alone. I don't take my kids places that they can get to on their own, and I've stuck by that rule since they were in middle school. (Seriously, I signed the eldest up for a book club way uptown, told her to take the 6 train, and sent her off. I got an aggrieved call a few hours later complaining that she'd gone three blocks in the wrong direction and I should've been more clear. "Are you still lost? Because Bonne-Maman always said that if you're lost you just need to put your hand on your head*-" "I know! I got here!" "Well, okay, have fun!") I didn't take them to dance classes, I didn't take them to Teen Hangout in Battery Park City, and I didn't take A to her first day of high school. Heck, back in elementary they insisted I stay home so they could walk on their own! As for driving, cars are dangerous. If he's not comfortable driving, get him a bike. Even out in the boondocks some people are blind, or have epilepsy, or have had their license taken away. People find ways to cope. * If you put your hand on your head, you know where you are. You're under your hand. My grandmother was a very aggravating person sometimes. Edited January 4, 2019 by Tanaqui 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, Garga said: This is all very good. After I wrote my post, I was thinking, “When I say “brake” I mean “more brake” but obviously, he thinks I mean “start to brake” which he *is* doing.” So, I think you’re right that he thinks I’m telling him to do something he’s already doing. And I was realizing that his snippiness is anxiety. He does have ADHD and he is on meds, but maybe they’re wearing off too much by the time we drive? We drive after school and they start to wear off in the evening. I live near Gettysburg and there are lots of smooth roads through the battlefields. I’m going to check them out in the next couple of days and see what the traffic is like there. There are a couple of spots where the road narrows through some big rocks that squigs me out to drive around (I always feel like I’m going to go off the road in that spot), but if we can avoid that area, it might be the perfect place to drive. It’s a bit cold out, so there are very few tourists would want to wander around battlefields right now. The nice thing about driving through the Gburg battlefields is that most cars start to drive at a crawl because they’re so busy looking out the windows at the scenery. Everyone expects you to drive a little wonky through Gettysburg National Military Park! I’ve been behind cars going 10 mph because they’re looking all around. (Hmm...the park might be closed because of the gov’t shutdown, but when it’s back open, I’ll check it out.) another places might be cemetaries. The downside is the roads are narrow and approaching cars might be stressful and also the speed limit is pretty low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Garga said: Just to clarify to everyone and not to contradict you: I wondered about the left hand turn thing, too. I think the book recommended left hand turns first because it’s on the driver’s side. In the parking lot, he found left hand turns easy—he could look out the side window and see where he was in relation to things as he was turning in that direction. But the right hand turns are toward the passenger side and the driver can’t look out the side window and see where they are in relation to the curb/objects. So, it’s harder when you’re new. Now, if there’s traffic and you’re crossing a road, then left hand turns are much, much harder. But we are driving on an almost empty side road in a neighborhood. During the entire 30 minutes we’re there, we’re lucky if 5 cars are on the road with us. There is literally no traffic. Just a few people who might be leaving their own driveways. We go around a residental block, over and over. The exact same block. It’s in the middle of the day and the people who live there are mostly at work. Again, not to contradict, but to explain: We did work on braking and turning in the parking lot for hours, but the problem was that he can’t get up to 25 mph in a parking lot. They’re just not big enough. He got up to 25 mph on the residental road for the first time and to him it felt like he was going 80. Driving at 25 mph was harrowing for him. In parking lots he could get up to maybe 8-10 mph before the lot ended. And we turned, but the parking lot was empty. On real roads there are curbs and some parked cars to navigate around. There is no stretch of road that he could drive 25 mph on straight that wouldn’t have traffic on it. And traffic would totally freak him out at this point. Whenever one of those 5 cars shows up in our 30 minutes of driving on the side-residental road we’ve been on, he makes anxious noises and I have to talk him through what to do (they’ve stopped at the stop sign, so you can go....they’re so far away that you don’t have to worry about that car...they’re turning into their driveway, so you can keep going past them...). It would be lovely if there could be a slow 25 mph road that doesn’t end in a stop sign every block and then a turn one way or another. We do have long country roads, but they bump up to 45 mph the second you hit the edge of town and since he gets so antsy at 25 mph, I feel it would be dangerous for him to be on a 45 mph road at this point, especially if he had someone behind him or coming at him from the other way at 45 mph. So, not contradicting, but we’re really in the easiest, gentlest place we could be right now for a first time driver. Ah. We don’t have big enough parking lots where we are either, but there is a huge fairgrounds lot, and a couple big high schools with pretty big lots in a city that we go to for groceries that tend to have times when they are nearly empty (though also stuffed full times) and where going 25 mph would be possible. About a mile or two away there is a country road that has an equivalent of around 2-3 city blocks with no signs. It’s probably a 45mph area, but easy to go as slow as one wants and just pull to the side as needed. It does have log trucks use it which could be anxiety producing, so that steady driving and pull over and stop skills would have to be very solid before using it. Our own road is too narrow and curvy and has drop offs into a creek. eta: I don’t know the rules where you are, but where we are it is legal to go slower than speed limit, thus legal to start at a speed with confidence already achieved and then gradually build up (on rural residential roads, that doesn’t work on highways where others would be moving along at 55mph). Edited January 4, 2019 by Pen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I thought of something else, Garga, to drive home the "Seriously, he should walk/bike more places" argument. He's anxious about being in a car, yes? This is a valid fear, because cars are scary. People who drive everywhere tend to forget that, but going 60mph or more in a multi-ton object is no joke. But it's not just cars that are scary, it's the road. It's everybody else. It's the whole thing. There was a study I read about a few years back where they had young adolescents draw maps of their neighborhoods and mark out locations they liked or that were scary. Unsurprisingly, the kids who mostly walked places drew maps that were more accurate and more detailed than the ones who mostly got driven around in cars. However, the relevant part here is that the walkers ALSO marked a lot of favorite places, including lots of places like "interesting tree" or "picked up shiny rock once" or "this house looks like a castle" and very few "scary" places. The kids who were mostly driven had maps with a lot of locations marked as scary or dangerous. Walking more could, hopefully, help him recenter his idea of his world so not every street is risky. I know that if I had to learn to drive I'd rather do it on a street that I felt was safe rather than one I vaguely felt uneasy about. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaughingCat Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I'm just a little further on this road (and we keep back tracking because she won't drive unless I push her into it) but at that point in the learning I let mine pick which way (left turns or right turns) and go whatever speed she was comfortable with (even if 5 mph). The quiet road was definitely better for her learning than the parking lot IMO -- just due to having to stay within certain 'bounds'. Also try my best to say the correction after (unless there appears to be some danger of course!), or ask her what she thought she could do better if we'd discussed the issue many times before. And we had a very similar 'conversation' about braking ("I AM braking!") -- which much improved after a discussion of why it was an issue and what I thought she should be doing instead (while not driving) vs my multiple times saying "brake! brake more! more!" (which resulted in no change the next time). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjzimmer1 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Garga said: Just to clarify to everyone and not to contradict you: I wondered about the left hand turn thing, too. I think the book recommended left hand turns first because it’s on the driver’s side. In the parking lot, he found left hand turns easy—he could look out the side window and see where he was in relation to things as he was turning in that direction. But the right hand turns are toward the passenger side and the driver can’t look out the side window and see where they are in relation to the curb/objects. So, it’s harder when you’re new. Now, if there’s traffic and you’re crossing a road, then left hand turns are much, much harder. But we are driving on an almost empty side road in a neighborhood. During the entire 30 minutes we’re there, we’re lucky if 5 cars are on the road with us. There is literally no traffic. Just a few people who might be leaving their own driveways. We go around a residental block, over and over. The exact same block. It’s in the middle of the day and the people who live there are mostly at work. That makes sense and I hadn't really thought about it from that point before. However I still think right hand turns are easier especially when they are learning to brake appropriately because you've got a bit more road available if you overshoot your turning point (mine was always doing that) unless a vehicle is waiting to leave the road you are trying to turn on. And yes I remember coming home from practice after over a weeks' worth of driving to tell my husband "we have reached double digits in speed". Seriously close to two weeks on the road before he hit 11 miles an hour. There is no stretch of road that he could drive 25 mph on straight that wouldn’t have either traffic or stop signs or turns on it after just a block or two. And traffic would totally freak him out at this point. Whenever one of those 5 cars shows up in our 30 minutes of driving on the side-residental road we’ve been on, he makes anxious noises and I have to talk him through what to do (they’ve stopped at the stop sign, so you can go....they’re so far away that you don’t have to worry about that car...they’re turning into their driveway, so you can keep going past them...). It would be lovely if there could be a slow 25 mph road that doesn’t end in a stop sign every block and then a turn one way or another. We do have long country roads, but they bump up to 45 mph the second you hit the edge of town and since he gets so antsy at 25 mph, I feel it would be dangerous for him to be on a 45 mph road at this point, especially if he had someone behind him or coming at him from the other way at 45 mph. So, not contradicting, but we’re really in the easiest, gentlest place we could be right now for a first time driver. I would take him out on some rural road and let him putz at something below 25. If a car approaches he can pull over if it makes him anxious but really on a mostly empty road just let them go by and continue at whatever speed he wants. I would even worry about annoying someone else when they can easily pass. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said: And yes I remember coming home from practice after over a weeks' worth of driving to tell my husband "we have reached double digits in speed". Seriously close to two weeks on the road before he hit 11 miles an hour. I think this is important. I’d consider using a sign also. Such as of 3 Please Be Patient Student Driver Safety Sign Vehicle Bumper Magnet - Reflective Vehicle Car Sign Sticker Bumper Drivers https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M0QZW16/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_PCSlCb54NK86G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) (((Garga))) I know you probably need JAWM and hugs, but I'm going to suggest that DS sounds like he is strongly signaling that he is NOT ready to learn to drive. Really, unless your family is in a crisis situation where you desperately *need* another driver in the family, why not do like is always suggested with a reluctant-to-read pre-schooler -- set it aside for now and come back to it in 6 months or a year when he's more ready and interested. Just to encourage you -- DSs here were late-to-learn drivers here. Neither got their *permit* before 17-17.5yo -- so, 1.5 to 2 years AFTER they were first eligible for a permit. And one was 18.5yo and the other 19yo before they got their license -- AFTER high school graduation for both of them. By waiting, both were more calm and ready, and both learned to drive stick-shift (family car) AND a big bubba of a suburban, and have not had any accidents. A big bonus on waiting: teen impulsivity is at its highest between ages 15-18, which is why virtually all younger teen drivers end up having an accident at some point. By waiting to drive until late teens, the frontal cortex (impulsivity) as well as the decision-making portions of the brain have more of a chance to mature, and the teen has more emotional and experiential maturity under their belt to help them be safe drivers. If waiting is not an option, then hire a driving instructor. Outsourcing to someone else tends to make teens more willing to take instruction AND to keep the anxious / fearful / angry / snotty remarks to themselves. BEST wishes for this phase to quickly pass and for a good outcome, however you decide to deal with the teen driving and DS. More hugs, Lori D. ETA Ug. Disregard my post. I posted before reading beyond your initial post. Sorry for restating thoughts already mentioned up-thread or thought of by you, Garga. All the best! Lori D. Edited January 4, 2019 by Lori D. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Lori D. said: (((Garga))) I know you probably need JAWM and hugs, but I'm going to suggest that DS sounds like he is strongly signaling that he is NOT ready to learn to drive. Really, unless your family is in a crisis situation where you desperately *need* another driver in the family, why not do like is always suggested with a reluctant-to-read pre-schooler -- set it aside for now and come back to it in 6 months or a year when he's more ready and interested. Just to encourage you -- DSs here were late-to-learn drivers here. Neither got their *permit* before 17-17.5yo -- so, 1.5 to 2 years AFTER they were first eligible for a permit. And one was 18.5yo and the other 19yo before they got their license -- AFTER high school graduation for both of them. Both learned to drive stick-shift (family car) AND a big bubba of a suburban, and have not had any accidents. A big bonus on waiting: teen impulsivity is at its highest between ages 15-18, which is why virtually all younger teen drivers end up having an accident at some point. By waiting to drive until late teens, the frontal cortex (impulsivity) as well as the decision-making portions of the brain have more of a chance to mature, and the teen has more emotional and experiential maturity under their belt to help them to safe drivers. If waiting is not an option, then hire a driving instructor. Outsourcing to someone else tends to make teens more willing to take instruction AND to keep the anxious / fearful / angry / snotty remarks to themselves. BEST wishes for this phase to quickly pass and for a good outcome, however you decide to deal with the teen driving and DS. More hugs, Lori D. Lori brings the science to what I was trying to say based on instinct and just learning to drive myself as a late 30s mother of two. Her post also reminds me of this New Yorker article summarizing research into the teen brain. I forget most of it, but the take away was that most “programs” currently in place to keep teens safe don’t work. Their brains are just wired a certain way, and the risk/reward analysis is literally different than yours or mine. What works, basically, is trying to “keep them close”, supervised, whatever, until whatever needs to wire in their brain completes the wiring process. Very eloquent of me, I know. Unless I had a job or health issues that would prevent me from driving my teen around, I would, and would choose the podcasts/great lectures too. If that doesn’t motivate them to learn to drive , what will? 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, madteaparty said: ...Her post also reminds me of this New Yorker article summarizing research into the teen brain. I forget most of it, but the take away was that most “programs” currently in place to keep teens safe don’t work. Their brains are just wired a certain way, and the risk/reward analysis is literally different than yours or mine. What works, basically, is trying to “keep them close”, supervised, whatever, until whatever needs to wire in their brain completes the wiring process... Yes, there is a real physiology to the brain that makes putting a 16yo behind the wheel not the best idea for teens who have not developed the brain maturity really needed for operating a vehicle. Also, a LOT of teens have trouble understanding how to *look* much beyond the front end of their own vehicle. Or how to process what they are seeing into proper driving responses. Many teen brains don't seem to have developed the ability to do all of the necessary quick looking / assessing at different distant points while operating a vehicle. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okra Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I also agree.....don't worry about driving. Invest in a good bike. He can bicycle where he needs to go. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City Mouse Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 My DD had her permit for 2 years before she got her liscense. She is 23 and is still anxious about driving. She has to really want to go somewhere to drive, and she usually wants someone to go with her when she drives someplace new. We also live ina very rural area which makes things easier for her. She would drive herself the 4 hrs (more like 5 hrs for her) back and forth to college, but the whole way is very rural. I think there were only about 1/2 dozen stop lights the entire way. if we still lived in Houston she would probably not be driving at all. I have a friend in Houston who's DD17 does have autism and anxiety and may never be able to drive there. In stead of driving practice, I suggested that they work on her learning to use public transportation and uber. on the other hand, my DS 16 got his liscense within a couple of months of turning 16. He is much more excited to drive, but his lack of anxiety causes me anxiety. He was driving home from school after having his liscense for 2 months and had an accident which totaled the van. The van was as old as him, so it didn't take much to total it, but I really liked that van. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
***** Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 My oldest dd was not anxious to drive either. When she turned 18, she was ready (probably more so because her younger sister was 14 by then and looking forward to driving.) In our state, you could get your license if you were 18 without having to take driver's ed. (or learners permit, one or the other). But knowing my daughter's reluctance, we had her take driver's ed with her younger peers. We also paid for a special training of driving in the snow and learning how to handle a sliding car/fishtails...Initially, she would have rather not have had to take the classes. However, she actually THANKED us at least twice once she was through (wow, maturity?!). And I thought I lived in podunk town! Most towns at 45 mph are considered slow and I would feel very safe teaching a teen under these conditions. You can't really be any more gentler...I mean 25 mph and 1 square mile, farmland and 30 minute lessons. Your son has it made! You are doing all you can to help him be successful. I think this is a very good way to teach someone like your son. Actually, you can be most thankful that you live in the type of area you live in, for his sake! Maybe insist on this kind of practice for longer than you thought you should, until this is automatic for him and maybe shorten it to 15-20 min. (And yes, some snapping back is typical.) I am wondering if he is anxious in general (that maybe you haven't realized?) This happened to a friend of mine. I could see that her son was quite anxious, almost very shy when talking to him, eye aversions...I really felt for him. She finally caught on by the time he was nearly a teen-ager, how stressed he was even at recess. Just a thought anyway...Another idea, since you have farmland all around you...is your property big enough that he can drive on it himself, just to gain confidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilltopmom Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) I lived overseas as a teen where you had to be 18 to drive so I didn’t learn until I was back in the states in college. I was 21 when I got my license. During college I did live in a small city with some public transportation but it was inconvenient for timing, I had to take taxis for early morning shifts at my part time hospital job. I also biked to work across town in nice weather. My 18 year old is refusing driving practice currently & although I know his life will be easier once he learns- he will need an internship in the next few years and not driving will impact that even in a city, but driving IS dangerous & a huge responsibility and if he’s not ready I’m ok with it I guess. It was a hassle to drive him to & from his work last summer but we lived. We will be paying for lessons, fwiw. He gets snippy when anxious too. So do I. Edited January 4, 2019 by Hilltopmom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historically accurate Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I was a very anxious driver, and my oldest takes after me. She has had a permit for 1 1/2 years and has only logged 22 hours behind the wheel after Driver's Ed. I told her since she was turning 17 in February, I was going to start pushing. She's going to be my chauffeur this year. Everywhere we go, she drives. One thing that may help you, Garga, is I did an intermediate step between parking lot and roads. We went to a cemetary and drove around. She logged a good 10 hours on those streets. No other car on the road, not having to stay in your lane when turning, no pedestrians, just small, somewhat curvy roads that wound around and around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrissiK Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I, too, think it is a generational thing. When I was 16, I couldn’t wait to get my license. I got it on my birthday. And that was the norm. These days, my friends’ kids could take it or leave it. My second DS loves to drive and he’s only 14. My parents live on a farm and let him take their pick-up truck on the avenues between the orchards, so he’s getting good practice, and he’s really a natural when it comes to the “feel” of driving a vehicle. He’s good at backing up, parking the pickup in a tight garage. So, OP, I have no advice for you. But I know from experience, you can’t push a teenager to do something they really don’t want to do.🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 For some people cemeteries can be more stressful because making a mistake can mean crashing into a gravestone, ymmv, just throwing my experience out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanDiegoMom Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 My oldest has been diagnosed with ADHD and what you describe pretty much typified our teaching experience. The snippiness and the anxiety were pretty prevalent the whole time. Her working memory is way low (just got tested) so I'm assuming the amount of concentration needed to drive when also trying to process my directions I think overloaded her. She was very ready to drive (and we really needed her to drive -- three kids and lots of extracurriculars) but she's still not a great driver and only drives rarely. Mainly because she has had multiple parking lot accidents and our insurance is now sky high, and also because she is more aware of her problems focusing while driving and has less confidence than she had previously. However she is going to be pursuing medication so we are hoping that will help with her driving. Maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 @Garga Quote I think the problem is that he doesn't want to learn. We had lessons in September and October after he got his permit and I'd have to insist on the lessons with him grousing about having to do them. "I'm tired from school all day," if it was a weekday, or "I want to relax on Saturday," if it was the weekend. There was no time that was ever "right' to go driving. I got sick of being the one to force the issue, so for most of November and half of December, we didn't have lessons and he never once wanted one. We have started up while we've been on Christmas break, but he's still being rude about it. I was thinking about this more. It does sound like he doesn’t want to. Have you asked him if that’s true and if so why? Or what from his own POV would help? Quote I'm trying to be a good mother. Is it being a good mother to give in to the fear and wait until he's older? Or is it being a good mother to encourage him to face his fears, especially in this gentle environment of a small town and low speeds? I think encouraging is probably good. I am trying to encourage my even older ds to study for and retake the permit test. But I think I might be seeming like I am nagging rather than encouraging. Or even adding anxiety and stress because I feel anxiety about the driving (both about him driving and it’s dangers and about him not driving and impact that could have on him). Also, I was thinking a switch from 10mph in a parking lot to 25mph on a road with driveways and cars and turns (more than double speed and adding potential hazards), may be somewhat equivalent for me used to 65mph max on our area freeways to switch to driving at 150mph—and in another country with different rules and unfamiliar things to watch out for. 150mph is a speed I’ve never driven at. if I were pressured or forced to drive at 150mph when I didn’t feel comfortable doing it, that might make me ready to be snippy too! I do wonder though if there’s a generation change about driving, why and how that has come to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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