Why is the rate of suicide increasing so much?

[Lady Florida.]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm not disputing your opinion (you certainly have every right to it), but anecdotally -- My mental health/overall outlook on life improved tremendously once we left organized religion, and it's only continued to improve as I've studied secular Buddhist teaching. I have so much more peace now. The thought you express is a common enough one, but it's also commonly refuted by atheists and agnostics to no avail--the religious folks just ignore them and insist they're right.

 

I agree. I actually felt much better once I let go of religious belief. Although I've always been an optimistic type, my outlook in life is even more sunny than it was before

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'm sorry, but this attitude really bother's me.  not sure if it's because i find it woefully naive - or offensively sanctimonious.  It completely disregards the physiological responses in the body from either health issues that can affect the brain, or mental illness.  that type of attitude drives those in a religious community who are struggling - further into isolation.  "if you had more faith - you wouldn't be suicidal"  (iow: "it's the person's own fault their mental health is so bad they think of killing themselves) - do you realize that is the message that attitude is sending?

there are many myths about suicide - one is that "everyone makes a plan and leaves a note" - that's BS.  it completely denies those who act on impulse in the midst of a crises and are unable to think about anything but stopping the pain.

I have a deep belief in God's love for me - and I've btdtgtts.

To the bolded - I think it's a little of both. 

Suicide is complicated. We need to stop seeing it as a selfish act, a cowardly act, a choice. Until we do, prevention is going to continue to be difficult.

[Kim in Appalachia]

One of the reasons the stats on suicide has been increasing is because of the high rate of suicide among military members who have been in combat.  I know that has nothing to do with the recent celebrities, or the issue of increased teen suicide (which I think is helped/encouraged by social media, as well as the breakdown of families), but the overall numbers have been increasing because of the high number of people now in the military.

There is thought that it has to do with the way deployments are structured, or with the lack of focus of the job, but it is unknown.

There are multiple reasons people feel driven to suicide.  Each reason is incredibly sad. And while I always feel deep sadness for the individual who felt that was his/her only way out, I feel far worse for those that are left behind.   

 

[Murphy101]

11 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

For one major reason, I don't want to destroy my childrens' lives.  Can you imagine if I were to suggest... Never mind.

 

This presumes you feel you are good for your kids. Many don’t. It’s hard to feel like it would destroy the kids lives when mom/dad struggles to feel it’s worth getting out of bed in the morning. 

[Liz CA]

From purely professional / scientific viewpoint, there are several reasons:

• Decrease of resiliency (due to many factors)
• Increase in anxiety (GAD and other forms)
• Discrepancy or Vacillation on values and goals or inability to set goals and take necessary steps toward achieving them
• Increased cases of bipolar DO / ADD/ADHD - many undiagnosed
• Increased substance use disorders
• Sharp decrease in meaningful interpersonal relationships - face to face, not screen to screen
• Past trauma / abuse - unprocessed

And that is just for starters...

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

This presumes you feel you are good for your kids. Many don’t. It’s hard to feel like it would destroy the kids lives when mom/dad struggles to feel it’s worth getting out of bed in the morning. 

this presumes a person is even capable of thinking about anyone, including their children, outside themselves in the crises moment.

[sassenach]

5 minutes ago, Kim in Appalachia said:

One of the reasons the stats on suicide has been increasing is because of the high rate of suicide among military members who have been in combat.  I know that has nothing to do with the recent celebrities, or the issue of increased teen suicide (which I think is helped/encouraged by social media, as well as the breakdown of families), but the overall numbers have been increasing because of the high number of people now in the military.

There is thought that it has to do with the way deployments are structured, or with the lack of focus of the job, but it is unknown.

There are multiple reasons people feel driven to suicide.  Each reason is incredibly sad. And while I always feel deep sadness for the individual who felt that was his/her only way out, I feel far worse for those that are left behind.   

 

 

I hadn't considered that but it's an important point. A quick search pulled this up- military members compose 18% of suicides while making up 8.5% of the adult population. https://www.usveteransmagazine.com/2017/09/05/shocking-military-suicide-rates-identifying-signs/

 

[SanDiegoMom]

Just now, Kim in Appalachia said:

One of the reasons the stats on suicide has been increasing is because of the high rate of suicide among military members who have been in combat.  I know that has nothing to do with the recent celebrities, or the issue of increased teen suicide (which I think is helped/encouraged by social media, as well as the breakdown of families), but the overall numbers have been increasing because of the high number of people now in the military.

There is thought that it has to do with the way deployments are structured, or with the lack of focus of the job, but it is unknown.

There are multiple reasons people feel driven to suicide.  Each reason is incredibly sad. And while I always feel deep sadness for the individual who felt that was his/her only way out, I feel far worse for those that are left behind.   

 

My husband is working on his dissertation on veteran suicide. (we are a USMC family).  He thought going into it that it would be the increased deployments schedules but he is finding that is not the case. He sees it so far as a two fold problem -- lack of social cohesion and network upon leaving the military and increased access to personal weapons. (He hasn't told me recently any more thoughts -- those were from months ago!)

He has known multiple people who have committed suicide. He has one friend who has actually witnessed three different military members in the act of committing suicide. It is not good.  He teaches graduate level classes in the military and he has to give trigger warnings in his class when he teaches the class on suicide. The first time he taught it fully a third of the class was in tears -- so many people have been affected by it. 

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I would amend that to:

Believing we are worthy of God’s love makes one mentally healthier/less prone to suicide. And being part of community that believes that too.

Whether someone believes in God or not, if they think they are unworthy of His love or that He doesn’t love them - belief isn’t going to be much comfort.

And sadly, there are too many churches that think believing in God makes everything okay. 

My church is very supportive of mental health services and provides to anyone for free or a nominal sliding scale.

uh - no.  possible for those who are still capable of rational and controlling thought, there is a point way past that.  I'm speaking from experience.   mental illness is mental illness.  chemical imbalance is chemical imbalance.  in those cases personal belief becomes irrelevant because the ability of rational thought doesn't exist.

[Junie]

Last year I was prescribed several medications for chronic migraines.  I found out later that one of the medications has a listed side effect that it may cause suicidal thoughts.

My doctor never discussed this with me!  And he is no longer my doctor.

I think that doctors do not do as much as they should in order to help their patients, especially those with chronic illnesses.

[Lady Florida.]

10 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

 

But can you really argue how much easier it is to become unmoored when you’re your own compass and standard? When you’re the one who decides your life and death and there aren’t no consequences or results beyond this world?

 

 

Yes I can (argue it that is). Again, it's something a believer doesn't seem to be able to understand. That's not an insult either (and I didn't take your post as an insult). As someone who used to be a believer I know what it was like to not understand lack of belief. 

[sassenach]

1 hour ago, Margaret in CO said:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/adventure-blog/2016/05/16/why-are-ski-towns-suicides-happening-at-such-an-alarming-rate/?beta=true

We have an interesting phenomenon in our valley (and other mountain towns). For us, so much of it is the lack of connection. It's fine if you're still healthy and can go, go, go, but if not, folks find that they're left behind. That their human connections are based on activity, not actual love for each other. 

Very interesting article. It’s like a case study of the national issues. 

[Lady Florida.]

34 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I would amend that to:

 

Whether someone believes in God or not, if they think they are unworthy of His love or that He doesn’t love them - belief isn’t going to be much comfort.

And sadly, there are too many churches that think believing in God makes everything okay. 

My church is very supportive of mental health services and provides to anyone for free or a nominal sliding scale.

The bolded only applies to those who believe in a god, not "whether someone believes in God or not". You can't believe you're unworthy of the love of someone/something you don't believe exists. I can't believe I'm unworthy of a fairy's respect because I don't believe in fairies. 

That said, I agree with you about churches that try to say if you just believe harder or better it will fix you. That doesn't help anyone. Not the person with suicidal thoughts, not their family. I grew up in the Catholic Church on the Baltimore Catechism, which said suicide was a mortal sin. A person could not have a Catholic funeral or be buried in consecrated ground if they committed suicide. It's my understanding that John Paul II made changes/clarifications though I had already left the RCC by then. I"m glad they're more understanding about mental illness now. And Pope Francis is likely to go even farther with his compassion. 

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

yeah-  probably why my mother thought my dad was bluffing.  he'd been struggling with severe depression since before they got married and she was burned out.  then during her teenage years - my sister was constantly threatening to  kill herself.

and it get's back to the lack of interconnectedness and social support among people compared to 40 years ago.  the (admittedly lacking) focus is on the suicidal person, but their immediate circle also need support.

 

The thing is, sometimes people are bluffing - there is a section of people out there that use threats of suicide to manipulate others.   And it isn't necessarily always the right thing to respond to that in the same way, to give them the power to manipulate in that way.  Other people never intend to be successful at killing themselves.

So telling people - always take this seriously - it's kind of difficult.  It really is dangerous when people play around with this, but you can only do so much.  I think it's just a false scenario that if you do the right thing and pay attention, you all be able to prevent it.  Sometimes you can't, no matter what.

 

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I have a friend who has 2 sisters and one nephew (son of one of the sisters) who killed themselves.  One sister jumped off a 5 th floor building and a year later her son jumped from the same spot.  So there seems to me to sometimes be some romanticizing of the act. 

 

Scarlett, it isn't romanticizing suicide. It is that suicide is triggering for others who suffer from depression and other forms of mental illness. I have bipolar disorder (and generalized anxiety disorder), and have been hospitalized several times for it, including for attempted suicide. A diagnosis of bipolar disorder includes a 25% suicide rate. I have to live my entire life with the knowledge that I have a 1 in 4 chance of death by suicide. Think about someone struggling with cancer who received those odds. It can do a number on you mentally. It can be hard to connect with people because you are afraid of burdening them with your illness (and what can feel like your eventual death by suicide). Every time I feel symptoms of depression or mania coming on, I wonder, 'Will this be the time that it finally gets me?'  When I read about other people committing suicide, especially people with money and (presumably) easy access to mental health treatment, it makes me feel like 'what hope is there for me to make it through this?" If they couldn't survive this monster, how can I? And these thoughts swirl around and around in my head even when I am feeling fine, but most especially when I am not. There is nothing romantic about mental illness. If you have never seriously considered taking your own life, consider yourself very fortunate indeed.

And, in my worst days of struggling with mental illness, I was a successful attorney, made a ton of money with a prestigious firm, owned two beautiful condos on the beach, drove a Porsche, regularly attended synagogue, and had a loving family and a ton of friends who supported me. It didn't matter. I also have an extensive family history of mental illness -- such is the genetic luck of the draw. I have come to understand that I have a neurotransmitter issue, so I take medication to help my neurotransmitters function more normally. I take the medication every day and without judgment (now). I also see a therapist to help me develop a stronger psychological toolkit to compensate for my sh*tty neurotransmitters. These are the things I do to help me stay alive. But, it isn't easy and there are most definitely days when I don't feel like it will make much difference in the end.

None of that likely answers the original question, but I hope it helps to explain why suicide can be so triggering for some of us.

[Pawz4me]

30 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’m personally not arguing that an atheist has no reason to live or no hopes (though you couldn’t define hope in the sense that a theist does, since its a hope that extends beyond this world and fundamentally different).

 

But can you really argue how much easier it is to become unmoored when you’re your own compass and standard? When you’re the one who decides your life and death and there aren’t no consequences or results beyond this world?

 

It’s not an insult, it’s just straight up ontology.

 

Well, yes. Quite easily.  And I say that as someone who used to believe but now considers herself agnostic (although by no stretch of the imagination does my perception of God--if he/she/it exists--resemble much at all of what most Christians believe).

I suppose it is difficult to understand if you've never not believed, or at least not had strong doubts.

You might find answers to some of your questions in the Dalai Lama's writings. This would be a good place to start.

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Plum Crazy said:

Social media is the bogeyman in most upticks, but there could be something to it in some cases. Bullying plays a huge part, but it makes it overwhelmingly easy to compare your life to someones constant flow of perfectly staged pictures and thoughtfully crafted status updates. All it does is create a sense of failure and uselessness in people who are suffering. It takes a lot of strength and perspective and self-analysis to be able to see someone else living a seemingly amazing life and not have it chip away at your own self-worth. 

 

There have been pretty strong correlations between social media use and negative emotions.  I think it's even had some causative evidence around it.

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don't have the actual answer, but I pretty much reject most of the ones offered.  Though I've never been actively suicidal, there are a lot of mental health issues in my family, including my own bouts with depression, so keeping watch for risk factors (and knowing they aren't always there) is my every day state of mind.

There's nothing "meh" or "trendy" or "romantic" about gross pain, whatever a person may appear to be expressing.  Having experienced the intense, horrific pain of the lies depression tells *without coming to the conclusion some do, I can only imagine the depths felt by those who have.  Knowing what I've written (my main way of coping) during the worst times, the message sent doesn't accurately reflect what's really going on. To believe that the average person who tries to end their life has room for "normal" thoughts and emotions that other people can make sense of is mind boggling to me.

I do believe our obsession with entertaining correlation over causation will become its own correlation.

 

I don't know.  Social contagion is widely accepted among mental health professionals, and has been for a long time, as a significant issue with teen suicides.  It's informed a lot of the protocols for dealing with it.

 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Scarlett, it isn't romanticizing suicide. It is that suicide is triggering for others who suffer from depression and other forms of mental illness. I have bipolar disorder (and generalized anxiety disorder), and have been hospitalized several times for it, including for attempted suicide. A diagnosis of bipolar disorder includes a 25% suicide rate. I have to live my entire life with the knowledge that I have a 1 in 4 chance of death by suicide. Think about someone struggling with cancer who received those odds. It can do a number on you mentally. It can be hard to connect with people because you are afraid of burdening them with your illness (and what can feel like your eventual death by suicide). Every time I feel symptoms of depression or mania coming on, I wonder, 'Will this be the time that it finally gets me?'  When I read about other people committing suicide, especially people with money and (presumably) easy access to mental health treatment, it makes me feel like 'what hope is there for me to make it through this?" If they couldn't survive this monster, how can I? And these thoughts swirl around and around in my head even when I am feeling fine, but most especially when I am not. There is nothing romantic about mental illness. If you have never seriously considered taking your own life, consider yourself very fortunate indeed.

And, in my worst days of struggling with mental illness, I was a successful attorney, made a ton of money with a prestigious firm, owned two beautiful condos on the beach, drove a Porsche, and had a loving family and a ton of friends who supported me. It didn't matter. I also have an extensive family history of mental illness -- such is the genetic luck of the draw. I have come to understand that I have a neurotransmitter issue, so I take medication to help my neurotransmitters function more normally. I take the medication every day and without judgment (now). I also see a therapist to help me develop a stronger psychological toolkit to compensate for my sh*tty neurotransmitters. These are the things I do to help me stay alive. But, it isn't easy and there are most definitely days when I don't feel like it will make much difference in the end.

None of that likely answers the original question, but I hope it helps to explain why suicide can be so triggering for some of us.

I am sorry.  Romanticizing was probably the wrong word.  But to kill yourself in the same spot your mom did....seems....like some sort of gesture. Solidarity? I don't know.  Is that what you mean by triggering? 

  I was with this young man's aunt the night before when he texted her, 'Aunty, you have always been a great aunt and I love you.'   She immediately felt something was off but she couldn't reach him....he lived out of state....the next morning she got the news.   

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

We tell people their existence is temporal.

 

That they’re the ones in control of every aspect of their life and death.

 

That there isn’t any greater judgment beyond their own version of truth.

 

And that the entire purpose of life is their own fulfillment and happiness.

 

Are we really wondering why a society that is sending those messages is seeing significant spikes in suicide, when the world’s happiness and ends aren’t enough?  Mental illness has always been around, treated and otherwise.  But that doesn’t account for the uptick.  Having a life divorced from meaning and purpose and a radical ideology of agency outside of any higher power would seem plenty of explanation to me.  Just look at which countries are seeing increases in doctor assisted suicide and right to die legislation, and what they have in common.  

 

Just from a purely social standpoint, when those factors are flipped on why wouldn’t you expect to see more suicide?  

We do???? I certainly don’t see this in my world. I think the vast majority of people want their life to have meaning and most find it through doing for others in one way or another. It sounds like you’re saying it’s due to people not being religious, but maybe I’m wrong. And at least in my own personal experience, the suicides were related to people having been brought up very religious and feeling intense pressure as young adults to stay with the faith and follow things they no longer believed.

[Mergath]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

We do???? I certainly don’t see this in my world. I think the vast majority of people want their life to have meaning and most find it through doing for others in one way or another. It sounds like you’re saying it’s due to people not being religious, but maybe I’m wrong. And at least in my own personal experience, the suicides were related to people having been brought up very religious and feeling intense pressure as young adults to stay with the faith and follow things they no longer believed.

 

Yeah, I don't believe in God, but I also don't believe that "the entire purpose of life is my own fulfillment and happiness," or that "there isn't any greater judgement beyond my own version of truth." None of the atheists I know believe that, either. I believe that thinking like that is a willful misrepresentation of what atheists believe.

And thinking that has any connection to suicide rates is an extreme misunderstanding of how suicide works. People don't commit suicide because of cultural relativism. Good grief.

[SeaConquest]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I am sorry.  Romanticizing was probably the wrong word.  But to kill yourself in the same spot your mom did....seems....like some sort of gesture. Solidarity? I don't know.  Is that what you mean by triggering? 

  I was with this young man's aunt the night before when he texted her, 'Aunty, you have always been a great aunt and I love you.'   She immediately felt something was off but she couldn't reach him....he lived out of state....the next morning she got the news.   

 

I would say that it probably seemed more like an inevitability to him. Mom killed herself here. I am suffering and want it to end. It will never go away. I am just going to end up doing what she did, so why go on? If I just do what she did, I won't have to feel like this anymore.

Please also understand the psychological effects that suicide can have on children. One of the things that my psychiatrist always reminds me of when I am feeling suicidal is what it would do to my children. The rate of suicide among children with a parent who committed suicide is exponentially higher. Think of it this way: at least one of my kids likely already has my sh*tty neurotransmitters, so if I kill myself, it is going to affect my child at an exponentially greater rate than someone with normal physiology. I try to remember that my kids are likely more psychologically susceptible to the effects of trauma (you can Google Adverse Childhood Experiences -- ACE scores -- to learn more). 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

There has been nothing in my life more depression inducing, and isolating, than religion. This last year, I was rejected by my own extended family because I don't adhere to their fundamentalist Christian religion and politics. These are people shared a lifetime with us, through hard times and family holidays, and who were there for us in emergencies. And we were there for them. But now we are cursed to hell (literally, they did that), because we are in favor of civil rights for all citizens including gays.

So much for purpose, connection, family heritage, community, and a safety net for hard times! In this political era, our family is by FAR not the only one to go through this. And you know what, we can't fix it. To put our families back together, we would have to hate our neighbors and repent of the sin of loving them. We would have to join their bigoted, backwater little churches. We would have to laud and venerate the president as a man of God. Mind you, we never hurt anyone. We weren't unkind or disrespectful. We didn't even argue or try to convince, we just lived our own convictions. Cast out.

I have never been suicidal and have very, very rarely been clinically depressed. I don't know why not - since childhood, there have been a lot of circumstances that should cause it, but I don't seem to be susceptible. But I have been very sad over the loss, this year. I have regained lost weight, tried to lose myself in activities to the detriment of home management and family goals, and fretted a lot about what would happen to everyone, now that a family network of NINETY people has been destroyed. I am now coming out the other side from all of that. I'm fine.

But If I were mentally unwell, or if I didn't feel "safe" at home with my dh and kids, and if I didn't believe I could invest more in other communities, and if I didn't think my children could do the same...or if I were also young and dependent...RELIGION would possibly help me to a disastrous end. 

So much for religion. It's not being religious that helps people. It's the connection and belonging that *may* arise from shared faith. 

[Lady Florida.]

18 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 

Well, yes. Quite easily.  And I say that as someone who used to believe but now considers herself agnostic (although by no stretch of the imagination does my perception of God--if he/she/it exists--resemble much at all of what most Christians believe).

I suppose it is difficult to understand if you've never not believed, or at least not had strong doubts.

You might find answers to some of your questions in the Dalai Lama's writings. This would be a good place to start.

The bolded is what I've been trying to convey. If you've never questioned or are still a confident believer it's hard to understand. And our moral compass isn't a "do whatever feels good" nor is it difficult to find a moral compass without a deity. 

11 minutes ago, Frances said:

We do???? I certainly don’t see this in my world. I think the vast majority of people want their life to have meaning and most find it through doing for others in one way or another. It sounds like you’re saying it’s due to people not being religious, but maybe I’m wrong. And at least in my own personal experience, the suicides were related to people having been brought up very religious and feeling intense pressure as young adults to stay with the faith and follow things they no longer believed.

It's not my experience either. I have friends who were brought up in families of unbelievers and friends who, like me, were raised in religion (most of us were Christian). None of us think the entire purpose of our existence is to find happiness. None of us feel life is hopeless. I am fortunate to not have much experience with suicide. The only person I knew who (questionably) committed suicide was a former student, 3 years after she graduated. I say questionably because she was outside on a ledge of a high rise building and went off of it. Some said she jumped, some said she didn't intend to jump but fell. Regardless, she was hurting inside or wouldn't have been out there threatening in the first place. She was a member of the local Catholic church. 

5 minutes ago, Mergath said:

 

Yeah, I don't believe in God, but I also don't believe that "the entire purpose of life is my own fulfillment and happiness," or that "there isn't any greater judgement beyond my own version of truth." None of the atheists I know believe that, either. I believe that thinking like that is a willful misrepresentation of what atheists believe.

And thinking that has any connection to suicide rates is an extreme misunderstanding of how suicide works. People don't commit suicide because of cultural relativism. Good grief.

None of the atheists I know think they have it all correct. None think there's no greater judgment than their own. Atheism is not a reason to commit suicide and people don't do it because they can't find a way to believe in any gods. It's not only a misunderstanding of suicide, it's a misunderstanding of atheism. And more importantly, it's a misunderstanding of mental illness. 

Also, as has been mentioned, not all suicide is a result of a diagnosed mental illness. Sometimes the illness goes undiagnosed. Sometimes it's a side effect of medication - even medication meant to treat depression. @Junie I'm sorry to hear of your experience. I agree that doctors need more training to understand not only what side effects a medication can have, but what medication interactions can cause problems. 

[Bluegoat]

19 minutes ago, Mergath said:

 

Yeah, I don't believe in God, but I also don't believe that "the entire purpose of life is my own fulfillment and happiness," or that "there isn't any greater judgement beyond my own version of truth." None of the atheists I know believe that, either. I believe that thinking like that is a willful misrepresentation of what atheists believe.

And thinking that has any connection to suicide rates is an extreme misunderstanding of how suicide works. People don't commit suicide because of cultural relativism. Good grief.

 

I think a lot of people don't have any robust sense of meaning beyond the temporal and immediate.  They take a kind of view of themselves and others as animals, living lives, etc, but really not important in a universal sense.  They love their kids, maybe think their jobs are worthwhile, most of the time. But it's not really grounded in anything they can point to or rationalize.  It's an atomic view of human beings where we aren't really more than part of a chain of causes, something that manifests briefly and passes away.  THat's the social dominant secular pop theory, at this point in time.

So, at the end of the day, when someone is vulnerable or depressed, or facing a terrible situation, the question becomes, what's the point of it all?  Why carry on?  My consciousness isn't important, other's consciousness isn't important.  It's a phenomena of physics, in a short time it will be gone and forgotten, we all will, the universe will spin on into entropy.  None of this human thing will be missed or mourned, nothing important will be different.  

It's not the same as being able to say - the foundation of the universe is love, our existence has profound meaning, death is an absolute loss (or perhaps, there is no death really, depending on your approach) we are here because we do matter, our existence is entirely intertwined with the meaning of life for other people and the whole universe, I am part of something bigger.

Individuals at times suffer these existential crises, but if your cultural belief, your intellectual belief is, there is meaning, even if you don't feel it, it creates a different perspective, and a different habit of perspective  When the dominant cultural message is, you are just a set of atoms spinning around, it's going to tend to reinforce that feeling of meaninglessness.  It's the rational instantiation of the protection that comes from experiencing close interpersonal relationships.

[SeaConquest]

Just now, Tibbie Dunbar said:

There has been nothing in my life more depression inducing, and isolating, than religion. This last year, I was rejected by my own extended family because I don't adhere to their fundamentalist Christian religion and politics. These are people shared a lifetime with us, through hard times and family holidays, and who were there for us in emergencies. And we were there for them. But now we are cursed to hell (literally, they did that), because we are in favor of civil rights for all citizens including gays.

So much for purpose, connection, family heritage, community, and a safety net for hard times! In this political era, our family is by FAR not the only one to go through this. And you know what, we can't fix it. To put our families back together, we would have to hate our neighbors and repent of the sin of loving them. We would have to join their bigoted, backwater little churches. We would have to laud and venerate the president as a man of God. Mind you, we never hurt anyone. We weren't unkind or disrespectful. We didn't even argue or try to convince, we just lived our own convictions. Cast out.

I have never been suicidal and have very, very rarely been clinically depressed. I don't know why not - since childhood, there have been a lot of circumstances that should cause it, but I don't seem to be susceptible. But I have been very sad over the loss, this year. I have regained lost weight, tried to lose myself in activities to the detriment of home management and family goals, and fretted a lot about what would happen to everyone, now that a family network of NINETY people has been destroyed. I am now coming out the other side from all of that. I'm fine.

But If I were mentally unwell, or if I didn't feel "safe" at home with my dh and kids, and if I didn't believe I could invest more in other communities, and if I didn't think my children could do the same...or if I were also young and dependent...RELIGION would possibly help me to a disastrous end. 

So much for religion. It's not being religious that helps people. It's the connection and belonging that *may* arise from shared faith. 

 

Tibbie, let me first say that I am truly sorry that this happened to you. I see the divisions that are caused by religion in our local homeschooling community, and it saddens me deeply. (And this is in San Diego -- I cannot imagine how divisive it must be in other parts of the world.)

I do want to emphasize what you said above about being susceptible. I drink alcohol a couple of times per week, I use Oxycodone for pain a couple of times per month, I have smoked cigarettes and used drugs recreationally in the past. But, I have never had a substance abuse problem. I've asked my friends who have become addicts what they did that was different from my experience. Nothing. Nothing was different. They were just genetically susceptible and I wasn't. Again, luck of the genetic draw. 

[fairfarmhand]

It’s not about god or no god. When you’re that low, your mind plays tricks on you and your feelings lie to you. Even good Christian folks can get messed up ideas about this. “Your family would be better off without you. Do the compassionate thing. They’ll get over losing you.”

It’s a messed up brain lying to people. Not about Christian or non Christian. When you’re so low, you can’t think about God’s purpose for your mess. It’s all about the pain of going on another day.

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

8 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Tibbie, let me first say that I am truly sorry that this happened to you. I see the divisions that are caused by religion in our local homeschooling community, and it saddens me deeply. (And this is in San Diego -- I cannot imagine how divisive it must be in other parts of the world.)

I do want to emphasize what you said above about being susceptible. I drink alcohol a couple of times per week, I use Oxycodone for pain a couple of times per month, I have smoked cigarettes and used drugs recreationally in the past. But, I have never had a substance abuse problem. I've asked my friends who have become addicts what they did that was different from my experience. Nothing. Nothing was different. They were just genetically susceptible and I wasn't. Again, luck of the genetic draw. 

 

Yeah. And it's not like those of us with crazy high ACE scores don't all have our sometimes very serious issues...but with addiction, mental illness, all sorts of stuff in our family, there is no apparent rhyme nor reason as to how the genetics shook out. If I were to have guessed (from ignorant stereotypes, mostly), I'd have gotten it all entirely wrong. I think I should have got more of it, based on temperament, but I didn't.

[Katy]

I want to preface this by saying I am Christian. I think the religion question is a red herring.  If you are in a healthy relationship with your religion, it's making your life better and supporting you in a myriad of ways.  Unfortunately not everyone has that experience.  Many people suffer religious abuse, find it has an extremely negative impact on their health (mentally and otherwise), and are much happier and healthier getting rid of it.  The idea that there are no ethics apart from religion is sanctimonious at best and ignorant prejudice at worst.  If you've had mostly good spiritual experiences and only a few abusive ones you're more likely to just find another church than you are to abandon religion altogether.

The church my dad grew up in nearly destroyed him.  A Sunday school teacher had a meltdown at him and his friend for talking in class and he internalized the message that he was bad and was going to hell. So that's the way he lived the rest of his life.   We have many close friends that are atheist or agnostic because they were raised with religious abuse.  They are some of the MOST MORAL people I know. In one case I'm pretty sure she gave up on religion because she couldn't reconcile the good God she knew as a child with the abusive theology that her family full of ministers tried to instill in her as a teen. I don't know how God will judge ethical people who reject hypocrisy but I can't imagine that it will be more harshly than those who are pretending to serve God while actually abusing people.

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

This presumes you feel you are good for your kids. Many don’t. It’s hard to feel like it would destroy the kids lives when mom/dad struggles to feel it’s worth getting out of bed in the morning. 

 

Well, the bigger presumption I was getting at is that not sharing one person's reason isn't a cause.  "I do X because Y" doesn't mean people without Y lack purpose. But I'm especially touchy about people devaluing the self-worth of the non-religious.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I don't know.  Social contagion is widely accepted among mental health professionals, and has been for a long time, as a significant issue with teen suicides.  It's informed a lot of the protocols for dealing with it.

 

 

I don't deny the upticks, but I don't think I could be convinced that it's a driving cause.  A possible trigger for those already on the edge?  Absolutely.  But they got to that edge somehow.

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’m familiar with his writings.  But again, I’m asking you to defend it.  Because I’m hearing a lot of assertions but no evidence or even discussion on why people holding your position think the way you do.  What are the details of your argument?

At this point I’m starting to not feel inclined to continue this vein of the discussion.  Because (1) after thinking about the numerous religious discussions we’ve had here over the years I think you’re either pretending to not understand or intentionally don’t want to understand and (2) I think it’s taking the OP a little too far off course, which would be a shame since it’s such a worthy discussion. 

(Plus DH and I are heading out soon on what will be at least a four hour round trip to fetch DS22 from the airport and I’m not up to making long posts on my phone. Maybe tomorrow, if I change my mind and the discussion is still going and religion/lack thereof is still part of it.)

[Carrie12345]

4 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Some who try or succeed with suicide are irrational and in the depressive hole, but that’s not the sole manner it goes down ?

 

I will absolutely agree with you that there is no one way that it goes down for everyone. Maybe not even a majority.

Between the one person I know who has taken their own life, two who have attempted, one who is being in-patient assessed as we speak, and several others who are at high risk, there aren't really any overlapping factors, other than having (different) mental/neuro/bio health issues.

I in no way mean to imply that there are no two people who share the same factors.  It's just that there are so many and they are so varied that trying to tie it all up into any neat bow (or several) is ridiculous.  Which also happens to be why I have such a hard time with the mixed messages we send about our responsibility to one another and then the importance of relieving survivor's guilt.  Do everything you can. There was nothing you could do.  Don't abandon someone in need.  Protect yourself from being harmed.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

(And let's not forget -  Find help. Get tossed out after the mandatory 48 hours.)

[JennyD]

Wow, I posted upthread this morning.  I am really surprised about the direction this conversation has taken.  I personally find my religious practice and community very sustaining but it would honestly never have occurred to me to connect suicide with secularism.  If anything, coming from a religion in which there's not much concept of an afterlife, I probably would have connected the dots in the opposite direction -- maybe people who believe in heaven might be less fearful of death/killing themselves.

In any event, considering that the suicide rate has gone up 30% since 1999, it seems like we are likely dealing with at least some very recent phenomena, as opposed to only long-term cultural shifts. 

FWIW, one of the four suicides I mentioned upthread was apparently the result of a bad reaction to an SSRI.  

[HomeAgain]

8 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

No, I really don’t see how you can argue that someone without a belief in eternal consequences/punishment/life not being theirs to control/life is sacred has the same view in the consequences or choice of suicide.  And the prevalence in countries that would be defined as secular/humanist differs from those with strong religious adherence.  It varies a bit depending on the religion, but the numbers are clear.  Why are Swedes killing themselves more than Costa Ricans?  The rates of suicide are going up in this country, even though mental illness and substance abuse and abuse of the person has always been an issue.  Worldview is an obvious factor, though not the only one.  You and LadyFlorida are saying it isn’t, but not actually explaining why you think that an ontological difference on be very nature and control of life and death and beyond wouldn’t change things.  And the data suggests that it does.

 

Hence my asking you to explain and defend your position, since you’re saying I’m wrong and not actually supporting that.  Bail if you must, but I did not ask the question rhetorically.

Rates of suicide by country.  It's more complicated than religious vs. non.

[HomeAgain]

5 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I totally agree it’s complicated, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a correlation.  Especially in first world countries, the years when the trend began to swing upward makes for very interesting analysis.

But the rates for Sweden have been going down since the 1960s.  What upswing is there in this non-religious country?  Or are you talking about the U.S., where the upswing of using religion as a weapon is correlating with higher suicide rates?

[Carrie12345]

This whole study looks pretty fascinating (to me,) but I'll just cut this part:

"That religion was shown to be a protective factor against suicide among the studies with older populations but not so with the younger population was somewhat puzzling. To our knowledge, no studies have been designed to intentionally determine if religion has a different impact on older versus younger populations regarding suicide. From a sociological perspective, it is possible that with older populations who may have lost community due to leaving their careers or children leaving the homes, religion then becomes a substantially larger part of their identity formation. Another possibility is that as health naturally deteriorates in old age, relying on religious coping behaviors may increase in the elderly. These are all consistent with the “lost theory” which suggests that the process of life naturally incurs continual loss of health, social position, relatives, friends, and life purpose [53]. This has special applicability for settings where the elderly make up a substantial proportion of the population such as in China [54]."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482518/

[Carrie12345]

3 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

I haven't read all the responses, but I do wonder if part of the uptick is that it is more accurately reported.  Back in the day suicide wasn't talked about... if someone killed themselves you may not have known that was actually the cause because families were embarrassed and because there were religious repercussions against it.   So back in the day when something was called and "accidental death" it may not have actually been an accident.

I don't think that accounts for all of it... I do believe it is happening more frequently.   Modern society is very stressful.  

Having recently read many ancestors' death certificates, I think it could be a significant piece of the puzzle.

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

Well, the bigger presumption I was getting at is that not sharing one person's reason isn't a cause.  "I do X because Y" doesn't mean people without Y lack purpose. But I'm especially touchy about people devaluing the self-worth of the non-religious.

 

Wait. What?

I think all life as value. 

Whether they are non-religious or not, whether think they think much of their own value or not. They do have value. 

[Carrie12345]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

 

Wait. What?

I think all life as value. 

Whether they are non-religious or not, whether think they think much of their own value or not. They do have value. 

That wasn't intended to target you. I just haven't figured out how to multiquote on the new board!

It has been implied, in this thread and elsewhere, that non-religious people have less to live for.

[ktgrok]

Also a lack of rhythm to life. For a long time we were a seasonal creature, times of work and times of rest. Heck, until recently even a stressed out office worker counted on regular smoke breaks with friends. And their off time was their own. Now, so many workers have ZERO off the clock time, really. They work at work, they work from home, they are always checking emails and messages and texts. There is no sabbath, no rest, no respite.

Also a lack of time outdoors, in sunshine. Exposure to the outdoors has been proven to improve mental health. We are indoors, starved for sunshine and trees.

Finally, the 24 hour news cycle. Our brains do not distinguish between "disaster on the other side of the world" and "disaster happening on my street". And when it is reported on 20 times in one day our brain doesn't get that it only happened once, it registers it as 20 separate disasters. Our brains cannot handle that constant load of stress chemicals long term.

[HomeAgain]

13 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Religion as a weapon.  Cute.  As for Sweden, that change seems to be one if reporting differences.  And interestingly it seems that euthanasia/assisted suicide isn’t counted in that mortality count, if I’m reading it correctly.  There would be a skew right there.  Can you find a statistic that combines the two in someplace like the Netherlands or Belgium? 

Find one that shows an uptick in Sweden, like you claim there is. 

ETA: For there to be an uptick, not only would the number of euthenasia cases be enough to keep the data steady, but there would have to be that many MORE to increase the number.

Edited June 8, 2018 by HomeAgain

[HomeAgain]

Just now, Arctic Mama said:

The reporting breakout is for different years, so they can’t be accurately combined.  It appears to be at least a .7% jump, which would raise Sweden’s overall suicide rate a statistically significant amount, though.  That’s why I suggested switching to discussion of a country with better data reporting.

 

Your turn.

Me - go find YOUR links, to substantiate YOUR claims?

Eh, no.  That's not how this works.  That's not how any of this works.

I think I'm done trying to talk to you and carry on a conversation.

[SporkUK]

I have had suicidal ideation since I was quite young. I really don't recall a time when thoughts that killing myself was an option hasn't been part of my life. The time period it was worst, so far, was when I was a very devout kid, part of a large religious community, frequently going to church - multiple times a week - and viewed myself as a horrifically flawed human being who didn't deserve anything, not even my life, and that I only had anything through God's mercy and love and, therefore, the pain I was going through was part of God's plan for me and the only way forward was to endure and prove my devotion. I remember being 12 and spending hours at night sobbing, begging in prayer hoping that I would finally do that so the burden would be lifted from me, and then in class considering if the top of the bathroom stalls would hold my weight. I mean, the end result of being damned would be the same either way, would it matter now or later when it's eternal either way?  I think there are elements of faith or religious community which some can find helpful, but just as many elements that harm, likely quite a few where it would depend on the person. 

I'm not sure if this is just me or because of how I was raised, I know I strongly crave an external ethical system with which to hold my self accountable against, and whenever I find one to cling to I may get the high of achievement for a while, but my mental health nosedives. It's the absolute worst way for me to channel my traits. It is only by developing my own compass and standards and becoming strong enough to stand by them rather than fall for and judge myself by another's creed that I've been able to improve. Personally, I don't think almost anyone chooses all of their life or death, and the consequences and the results in this world, even just for those in front of me, are more than enough for me to want to be a better person. 

From the research I've seen on suicide, I don't think it is any one thing or even many things we can point to with certainty, but I do think the flippant attitude both in general media and in social media is not helping. 13 Reasons Why entirely ignored decades of research on suicide prevention for... ratings, I guess. While what is now sometimes called 'suicide baiting' has always been around, it used to be seen as something horrible that abusers did to their victims and now telling others to kill themselves or drink bleach or that they should die or similar 'baiting' is all over some sites. I know how much louder suicidal ideation gets with such...encouragement and how deeply rooted those words can fix themselves. I still have such words I heard over twenty years ago rattling in my head. Things are complicated and hard enough, adding that on top is just kicking people when they're down. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

15 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

No, I think you’re misreading it if you’re talking about moi.  

 

They have every bit as much to live for, but do they see themselves and their choices in light of their eternal value or temporal?  If their view of their death is of an end, which they have every right to choose as the sole author of their own destiny, does that make a difference in their willingness to end it compared with someone who has a religious worldview with explicitly different ontology.

 

I’m asking about how a person views themselves and their place in history or eternity, not how someone else views them. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear ?

 

That would be personal and individual. Also, people with a God or without a God, with an afterlife or without an afterlife, have thought processes that may or may not be in keeping with any of those perspectives, in times of crisis. You are a NICU parent. You KNOW this. I can prove it - just yesterday, you told somebody who wanted to help a NICU family, to leave the "God and destiny" talk out of it because that's not where people's heads are. Same for this situation. We have no idea whether they're thinking about that, or able to think about that, or whether the person of that moment is who they would have been even moments before.

[Frances]

20 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

No, I think you’re misreading it if you’re talking about moi.  

 

They have every bit as much to live for, but do they see themselves and their choices in light of their eternal value or temporal?  If their view of their death is of an end, which they have every right to choose as the sole author of their own destiny, does that make a difference in their willingness to end it compared with someone who has a religious worldview with explicitly different ontology.

 

I’m asking about how a person views themselves and their place in history or eternity, not how someone else views them. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear ?

But even on this board when physician assisted suicide has been discussed, Christians have been among those saying they would use it under certain circumstances. And I also know Christians IRL who feel the same. And having been raised Catholic, the stigma there against suicide certainly seems to have lessened.

[Carrie12345]

13 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

No, I think you’re misreading it if you’re talking about moi.  

They have every bit as much to live for, but do they see themselves and their choices in light of their eternal value or temporal?  If their view of their death is of an end, which they have every right to choose as the sole author of their own destiny, does that make a difference in their willingness to end it compared with someone who has a religious worldview with explicitly different ontology.

I’m asking about how a person views themselves and their place in history or eternity, not how someone else views them. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear ?

I'm short on time, so I'm not going to backtrack, but I don't believe you made the post I was responding to.

Regardless, you're asking a question about MENTALLY UNWELL people. Their perceptions of themselves are deeply flawed and completely unreliable in this context.  And the asking of the question is based on the presumption that no other view can possibly compare in importance to the belief in an eternal life.  Which, honestly, I'm not even trying to be critical about.  It doesn't bother me in the least that anyone would view the afterlife as the absolute, most important, most meaningful reward.  But then it goes that other things are less important and meaningful to the belief holder.  That doesn't mean they aren't to the non-believer.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

Of course it is individual.  That’s exactly why I said we either have n=1, or the societal view.  The two aren’t really comparable, but I was the person in the NICU professing God’s plan, and also the person trying to take my life when I didn’t see things the same way.  On a personal level, that was probably THE deciding factor for me.  If I’d been a devoted, healthy member of the body of Christ at that point it would have made a difference in that.  For me.  That’s obviously not universal but I do not discount the value of view of God and man in mortality precisely because of that.  Make sense?

 

The thing that doesn't make sense is why you think anyone has any answers for you, as to how other people might view this. We can only speak for ourselves, and even then only in our current frame of mind. We can't speak for anyone else at all. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

Because I’m not asking for me, I’m asking philosophically why you (general opposing you) would think that ontology DIDN’T matter.  I’ve already discussed why it does.

 

I'm getting the idea from others in the thread that they feel the same way I do, which is that because *nobody has these answers* and it does smack a bit of suggesting that a religious belief in a heavenly reward might have some impact on the suicide rate...which is a very loaded idea, in terms of what it would mean if the citizens of our nation felt that people could be saved by being converted AND what it would mean in terms of blame for victims of religious persecution who might struggle with ontology in their moments of highest crisis...because of all that, we don't want to pursue this conversation.

[BarbecueMom]

3 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

 

One thing that struck me in your post was that the smoking went with socializing activities.  Maybe it wasn't the smoking itself, but the breaks from stress and interaction with others as well.  

This isn't any kind of religious belief or scientific finding, but I think all lives inherently come at a cost.  When we choose to save lives, we split that cost somehow between others, whether it is society or the family or just paid by one other person.  

So, think about tweens/young tweens riding in the front seats of cars.  When I was growing up, from about 8-9yo up you rode in the front seat.  Those painful, difficult parent/child conversations in the throes of puberty angst were much easier when you didn't have to look your parent in the eye, and in the car, that was physically impossible.  Now, it's been discovered that the front seat is not *physically* safe for 10, 11, 12yos, so they are in the back, away from the intimacy of conversation.  All of my kids sit in middle/back seats in a van, and I cannot safely have a conversation over my shoulder while driving.  How many parents have missed warning signs or missed opportunities because their child was strapped in safely behind them instead of in conversation range, so that another child might suffer less severe injuries in an accident?  I don't think it's an easy or useful (or even ethical) question to wonder if the cost is worth it to save every life you can, at the expense of others, but I also don't think it does society any good to pretend that positive changes never come with negative consequences.

I do think the negative consequence of decreasing smoking is the loss of that social bond and tension relief.  There will be a lot less people suffering from lung cancer and other tobacco-related diseases, but it's rather ignorant to pretend someone else, somewhere isn't paying part of that price.

[maize]

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

It’s not about god or no god. When you’re that low, your mind plays tricks on you and your feelings lie to you. Even good Christian folks can get messed up ideas about this. “Your family would be better off without you. Do the compassionate thing. They’ll get over losing you.”

It’s a messed up brain lying to people. Not about Christian or non Christian. When you’re so low, you can’t think about God’s purpose for your mess. It’s all about the pain of going on another day.

 

Exactly.

Religion does not prevent or ameliorate mental illness any more than it does diabetes or cancer or lupus.

You can't think about God's love because you literally cannot think--not in a coherent, rational way. Connections in the brain simply are not working.

All you know is pain; agonizing, overwhelming emotional pain.

At least, that's the way it looks to me after watching multiple loved ones face profound depression. I haven't experienced it myself and hope I never do.