Why is the rate of suicide increasing so much?

[Bluegoat]

Just now, swimmermom3 said:

 

Possibly, but not necessarily. The 16 yo old son of a friend used his father's gun. The family stored their guns responsibly, but a young person (actually anyone) who is committed to the idea of suicide can become very resourceful resorting to methods and actions that on a good day, would never cross that person's mind.

In our home, the planned method for one of our young adult children was to use OTC medications. All OTC and razor blades were stored in a locked safe. This is helpful if the suicidal urge is "of the moment." However, it does nothing for a prolonged episode, where a mile walk to the store would provide everything that was needed.

 

Yeah, I think things like storing guns or meds carefully will make a difference in some cases, where it's more of a passing thing.  Which is maybe especially likely with teens.  But someone who is committed to the idea is a different story.  

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 8:36 AM, gardenmom5 said:

it can also be they were genuinely feeling better because they were feeling better.  but it's an up and down road to healing - and then they go back down.   going back down after feeling better is actually more discouraging because it almost exacerbates the "down" feelings and leads to more intense feelings of "this will never get better" and more thinking that death really is the only "permanent" out.

those are lessons learned through experience, that "crap happens, but it passes".  so those with that life lesson, when they start to feel better, then worse - have something to hold onto until the next time they feel better.   that may be part of why the suicide rate for those who recently started antidepressants is higher.

back to that "emotional resilience" thing.   and social support systems matter.

Those that are bipolar can experience "mania." On the upswing, they feel invincible and like the world is truly their oyster, but there are points where they are cognizant that the down side is coming and often that crash is incredibly painful. It  takes good counseling and persistent building of positive thought patterns to manage the crash.

[G5052]

15 minutes ago, StellaM said:

It's sheer luck we haven't dealt with a suicide yet. Luck. Imagne waking up every day hoping your luck will hold through the day, and all through the day, as you work and care for others, it's tickling the back of your mind. Will they ?

And yet at the same time as carers (spouses, parents, siblings etc) live with this, they are expected to single handedly deal with this uncertainty, they are supposed to work, make money to pay for treatments, and advocate. And STILL (particularly if you have the bad luck to be a female parent) be blamed by those in the system, and plenty out of it. 

 

There's nothing like that kind of stress. I didn't know how it is until I experienced it. He lives in another state now, but I still care even though there is no contact. Will there be a phone call one day? It's a tough go.

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 9:30 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

I would amend that to:

Believing we are worthy of God’s love makes one mentally healthier/less prone to suicide. And being part of community that believes that too.

Whether someone believes in God or not, if they think they are unworthy of His love or that He doesn’t love them - belief isn’t going to be much comfort.

And sadly, there are too many churches that think believing in God makes everything okay. 

My church is very supportive of mental health services and provides to anyone for free or a nominal sliding scale.

 

You are very fortunate. On the other hand, an extended family member was put through extensive church "counseling" in his teens to eliminate his "gayness." Can't say that this experience improved his mental health.

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 9:59 AM, Junie said:

Last year I was prescribed several medications for chronic migraines.  I found out later that one of the medications has a listed side effect that it may cause suicidal thoughts.

My doctor never discussed this with me!  And he is no longer my doctor.

I think that doctors do not do as much as they should in order to help their patients, especially those with chronic illnesses.

Every blinkin' medication that is prescribed for alleviating depression or anxiety, carries that warning as do many that have nothing to do with  treating either. It's very important to read those depressing pamphlets that come with your new medication and track changes in your mood. Be especially vigilant for your young people.

[Murphy101]

8 minutes ago, swimmermom3 said:

 

You are very fortunate. On the other hand, an extended family member was put through extensive church "counseling" in his teens to eliminate his "gayness." Can't say that this experience improved his mental health.

 

I am very fortunate and so are many in my diocese who have access to the same care.

I’m grateful to it bc I know of several paid for by insurance quacks that do more harm than help and leave the families beoke financially and still up creek mental health wise too.

So I guess the point of our antidotes is that some mental health providers are bad apples no matter the banner they fly under. 

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, swimmermom3 said:

 

Possibly, but not necessarily. The 16 yo old son of a friend used his father's gun. The family stored their guns responsibly, but a young person (actually anyone) who is committed to the idea of suicide can become very resourceful resorting to methods and actions that on a good day, would never cross that person's mind.

In our home, the planned method for one of our young adult children was to use OTC medications. All OTC and razor blades were stored in a locked safe. This is helpful if the suicidal urge is "of the moment." However, it does nothing for a prolonged episode, where a mile walk to the store would provide everything that was needed.

When I say responsible gun storage, I mean that only one person can access the gun via biometrics or knowing the combination or keeping the key on their person at all times. I think we should move to a system in which the gun owner is absolutely responsible for what happens with their gun so they better restrict access to themselves alone. If we can't restrict purchases of fire arms or ammunition, this is the only way I can see to curb gun violence. I also support making the legal consequences for accidentally misfiring the weapon or failing to restrict access to the legal owner as draconian as possible as a deterrent to irresponsible gun ownership. My goal is to make gun ownership legally perilous and as unattractive as possible by using tough on crime arguments on this issue.

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 10:17 AM, SeaConquest said:

 

Scarlett, it isn't romanticizing suicide. It is that suicide is triggering for others who suffer from depression and other forms of mental illness. I have bipolar disorder (and generalized anxiety disorder), and have been hospitalized several times for it, including for attempted suicide. A diagnosis of bipolar disorder includes a 25% suicide rate. I have to live my entire life with the knowledge that I have a 1 in 4 chance of death by suicide. Think about someone struggling with cancer who received those odds. It can do a number on you mentally. It can be hard to connect with people because you are afraid of burdening them with your illness (and what can feel like your eventual death by suicide). Every time I feel symptoms of depression or mania coming on, I wonder, 'Will this be the time that it finally gets me?'  When I read about other people committing suicide, especially people with money and (presumably) easy access to mental health treatment, it makes me feel like 'what hope is there for me to make it through this?" If they couldn't survive this monster, how can I? And these thoughts swirl around and around in my head even when I am feeling fine, but most especially when I am not. There is nothing romantic about mental illness. If you have never seriously considered taking your own life, consider yourself very fortunate indeed.

And, in my worst days of struggling with mental illness, I was a successful attorney, made a ton of money with a prestigious firm, owned two beautiful condos on the beach, drove a Porsche, regularly attended synagogue, and had a loving family and a ton of friends who supported me. It didn't matter. I also have an extensive family history of mental illness -- such is the genetic luck of the draw. I have come to understand that I have a neurotransmitter issue, so I take medication to help my neurotransmitters function more normally. I take the medication every day and without judgment (now). I also see a therapist to help me develop a stronger psychological toolkit to compensate for my sh*tty neurotransmitters. These are the things I do to help me stay alive. But, it isn't easy and there are most definitely days when I don't feel like it will make much difference in the end.

None of that likely answers the original question, but I hope it helps to explain why suicide can be so triggering for some of us.

 

Thank you for sharing this perspective.  (((hugs))))

My daughter has struggled for 10 years and even when things appear to be going great on the outside, the battle can be raging on the inside.

 

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 10:48 AM, Bluegoat said:

 

I think a lot of people don't have any robust sense of meaning beyond the temporal and immediate.  They take a kind of view of themselves and others as animals, living lives, etc, but really not important in a universal sense.  They love their kids, maybe think their jobs are worthwhile, most of the time. But it's not really grounded in anything they can point to or rationalize.  It's an atomic view of human beings where we aren't really more than part of a chain of causes, something that manifests briefly and passes away.  THat's the social dominant secular pop theory, at this point in time.

So, at the end of the day, when someone is vulnerable or depressed, or facing a terrible situation, the question becomes, what's the point of it all?  Why carry on?  My consciousness isn't important, other's consciousness isn't important.  It's a phenomena of physics, in a short time it will be gone and forgotten, we all will, the universe will spin on into entropy.  None of this human thing will be missed or mourned, nothing important will be different.  

It's not the same as being able to say - the foundation of the universe is love, our existence has profound meaning, death is an absolute loss (or perhaps, there is no death really, depending on your approach) we are here because we do matter, our existence is entirely intertwined with the meaning of life for other people and the whole universe, I am part of something bigger.

Individuals at times suffer these existential crises, but if your cultural belief, your intellectual belief is, there is meaning, even if you don't feel it, it creates a different perspective, and a different habit of perspective  When the dominant cultural message is, you are just a set of atoms spinning around, it's going to tend to reinforce that feeling of meaninglessness.  It's the rational instantiation of the protection that comes from experiencing close interpersonal relationships.

 

I don't know many agnostics or atheists that prescribe to the viewpoint expressed in the first bolded paragraph.

If I were to generalize, several of the "nonbelievers" on this board often tend to express great compassion and love for their fellow human beings and to believe that each life is significant. There is a greater sense of interconnectedness and often, not always, far less grim judgement.

I have seen a great number of believers who lack empathy and compassion for anyone not in their religious circle.

I do not treat others with kindness ( I acknowledge that I am nowhere near perfect in this) because I fear eternal damnation, but because, I don't take pleasure in hurting others. It's not the legacy I want to leave.

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 12:42 PM, Arctic Mama said:

No, I think you’re misreading it if you’re talking about moi.  

 

They have every bit as much to live for, but do they see themselves and their choices in light of their eternal value or temporal?  If their view of their death is of an end, which they have every right to choose as the sole author of their own destiny, does that make a difference in their willingness to end it compared with someone who has a religious worldview with explicitly different ontology.

 

I’m asking about how a person views themselves and their place in history or eternity, not how someone else views them. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear ?

I believe that I am part of the human cycle and that each of us leaves a footprint, for better or worse, on the world historically as a whole. I hope that I am leaving a positive footprint.  With regards to death, if I were to suffer from something like ALS, I could quite possibly chose to end my life as I do not see my mind being wholly present in a body that is nonfunctional to be a gift to anyone. I don't believe that my suffering serves a greater good. The fear of eternal damnation doesn't seem like a great life motivator for me.

I am trying to respond respectfully to your question, T.

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:18 PM, Arctic Mama said:

Fair enough, but whether it feels loaded or not doesn’t make it an invalid argument.  I actually think it is THE question. But for what it’s worth I’m not in favor of crusade style forced conversions at all.  However moving to secular humanist policies en masse has real consequences on the value given to life on a policy and personal level.

Do highly religious societies truly value human life more than secular societies?

I don't think the entire question can be based solely on whether or not a society allows abortion. I have heard more than one congressman express the sentiment that a woman caught having an abortion should be hung. If Christianity were the state religion, I am not confident that lynching members of the LGBTQ community would not be seen as a religious duty. Many depraved and inhuman atrocities have been committed in the name of "faith," as have many acts of courage and compassion.

Many secular policies have been crafted in response to negative practices promoted by religious beliefs.

 

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 3:27 PM, Targhee said:

I don’t think the belief in God is the linchpin, but I’d like to ask you this: do you believe having a framework of belief/moral conduct/philosophy that is *external* of self is an important factor? I don’t mean a fear of committing sin/unloved by God, or a prescribed ritual, but a belief that certain acts or behaviors are more desireable because they lead to a better outcome. And that we look to outside sources (scripture, the life of an esteemed example, a contemporary mentor, a model in nature, etc) to help direct us towards that more desirable outcome.

Are these beliefs, in whatever form they take (theistic, nontheistic, non-religious, scientific, etc) stabilizing forces for ones mental health because they give life purpose and meaning, and often direction?

Would messages, intended this way or not, of absolute relativism where only the individual can determine what is truth/reality/right/good/the-point-of-it-all be so overwhelming for some as to contribute to their feelings of pointlessness?

These are sincere questions. They follow a line of what I am thinking, but I don’t know and am eager to hear others thoughts.

 

For me, I do believe that having a framework of belief/moral conduct/philosophy that is external of self is an important factor as a stabilizing force - I think.

Because my "belief system" is a mixture of what I value and respect in my birth faith (Catholicism), readings from other faiths, and personal experience, I am not exactly sure I could define it as external, because it is personal. And yet, I believe that I have a place in a larger cosmic system, if you will. My actions and choices affect others and I am not simply free to do whatever I feel like doing, especially if it harms others.

When I am reading inspiring works or out in nature, I feel more "grounded" - mentally healthier. 

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 4:29 PM, Mergath said:

 

Do you think it's not? 

There are people who have tried for many years to treat their depression/anxiety/whatever with zero success. They've tried all the meds, worked with mental health professionals, even done the woo. They reach a point where they just can't take anymore. I'm not going to say their mental suffering is somehow less painful than another person's physical suffering.

I don't think people should be allowed to request euthanasia because they were just diagnosed with SAD the month before and the first med isn't working or something like that. But if a person is working with a psychiatrist for a long period of time and there are no treatments left, it should be an option if the person wants it.

That said, I'd much rather see humanity get to a point where we can cure, or at least treat, all this stuff so no one ever has to wish for death because their suffering has become unbearable. And dear god, no one should ever, EVER have to want to die because they can't afford their medication.

And even if I think euthanasia should be legal in certain cases with the approval of medical professionals, I still think it's heartbreaking. It's similar to my stance on abortion- I think it should be legal, but I wish no one ever had to make use of it.

I am out of likes, but thank you so much for this post. The bold sums up exactly how I feel about both euthanasia and abortion. I don't think that condemnation to hell or societal shaming (like with suicides) and incarceration are constructive methods of reducing the occurrences.

About the cost of medication, it's not unusual for young adults to go without their medication, because they don't have insurance or that high deductibles make the cost very prohibitive.

[swimmermom3]

On 6/8/2018 at 6:15 PM, Ausmumof3 said:

I also wonder a little about the timing of the increase.  I was a 99 graduate.  I don't know how accurate that year is for the statistics but we really were the "self esteem" generation.  It was the era of always being praised for everything you did as a child even when it wasn't great.  I don't feel that this builds healthy resilience to the real world where there isn't necessarily a "good job" or "fantastic effort" or "participation award" at the end of every task.  I think we are now learning about the importance of allowing kids to fail and get up again from failure.

Very interesting point. Carol Dweck has a helpful book, Mindset: The New Psychology of Success, that basically talks about fostering perseverance and hard work versus complimenting intelligence and talent. Don't let the title turn you off. Dr. Dweck spent 20 years researching the topic and it's insightful for parents, teachers, and coaches.

[Junie]

3 hours ago, swimmermom3 said:

Every blinkin' medication that is prescribed for alleviating depression or anxiety, carries that warning as do many that have nothing to do with  treating either. It's very important to read those depressing pamphlets that come with your new medication and track changes in your mood. Be especially vigilant for your young people.

Yes, but at the time I was prescribed the medication my headaches were so bad that I could barely read, especially not small print.

I knew that some medications could cause suicidal thoughts in young people.  I didn't know that I was taking one of them and I didn't know that it could also affect middle-aged women.  I thought it was only a side effect in teens with developing brains.

I thought that my dark thoughts were because I was in so much pain.  It never occurred to me that the medication was causing them  I quit taking the medication because it made me so sleepy that I couldn't function.  I realized months later that the dark thoughts were gone even though I was in more pain.  I only knew that my medication could do this because I read about it about it here.

I feel like my doctor and the pharmacist both missed an opportunity to inform me of a potentially fatal side effect.  I also feel like it should have been a question that the doctor would ask during my follow-up visit.

[swimmermom3]

On 6/10/2018 at 2:06 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

 

I do wonder how emotional resilience is taught without treating the person like crap.

I am not sure this answers your question, Rosie, but in the Dweck book I mentioned earlier, part of the major study involved giving kids puzzles of varying degrees of difficulty. Kids who were complimented on their intelligence, tended to give up earlier or resorted to only working on easier puzzles. Kids who were complimented on their effort and persistence, chose to work on more challenging puzzles later in the experiment, they exhibit a growth mindset. I am really simplifying this. Work ethic and persistence are things within our control. When kids are told they are intelligent or talented and they come up against a challenge, those compliments ring false. They feel as though they have run out of talent or intelligence.

Does this make sense as one method of teaching emotional resilience? My youngest's swim coach shared every quote he could find from successful athletes and their experiences of failure. When Michael Jordan tells you how many free throws he's missed and how many games he's lost and those numbers are significant, it helps put into perspective how much practice and hard work it takes and not just natural talent.

[swimmermom3]

On 6/10/2018 at 5:35 PM, Murphy101 said:

 

No, it doesn’t. There’s entire generations of messed up folks to suggest otherwise. Emotional resilience is.... idk... possibly mythical. Who decides if someone is resilient or just used to being treated like crap or just good at looking resilient? You can’t tell by what they say or do whether they are emotionally a total hot cluster mess.

Why is it that when people treat us like shit we are told we are strong or will be stronger for it? Why should I have to be strong to endure school, work, and relationships? Why is it weak to decide maybe the problem isn’t some of us aren’t strong enough - it’s the entire notion that it’s never ever okay to be a “soft” person? And we wonder why the world is harsh and awful? It’s not because people lack emotional resilience. Maybe it’s because they have to have it to survive elementary school. 

Great post, Murphy. I am still out of likes and it's really bugging me on this thread.

[Guest]

This thread keeps breaking my heart...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, swimmermom3 said:

Very interesting point. Carol Dweck has a helpful book, Mindset: The New Psychology of Success, that basically talks about fostering perseverance and hard work versus complimenting intelligence and talent. Don't let the title turn you off. Dr. Dweck spent 20 years researching the topic and it's insightful for parents, teachers, and coaches.

I actually have this book sitting in my to-be-read stack...

[swimmermom3]

2 hours ago, Junie said:

Yes, but at the time I was prescribed the medication my headaches were so bad that I could barely read, especially not small print.

I knew that some medications could cause suicidal thoughts in young people.  I didn't know that I was taking one of them and I didn't know that it could also affect middle-aged women.  I thought it was only a side effect in teens with developing brains.

I thought that my dark thoughts were because I was in so much pain.  It never occurred to me that the medication was causing them  I quit taking the medication because it made me so sleepy that I couldn't function.  I realized months later that the dark thoughts were gone even though I was in more pain.  I only knew that my medication could do this because I read about it about it here.

I feel like my doctor and the pharmacist both missed an opportunity to inform me of a potentially fatal side effect.  I also feel like it should have been a question that the doctor would ask during my follow-up visit.

My point was more that many, many common medications list suicidal thoughts as a side effect. It is something pharmacists should bring up. Honestly, I would not have expected to see the warning on medication that was supposed to help my dd with depression. Now I know better. Junie, I am so sorry you had to experience that.

[Junie]

18 minutes ago, swimmermom3 said:

My point was more that many, many common medications list suicidal thoughts as a side effect. It is something pharmacists should bring up. Honestly, I would not have expected to see the warning on medication that was supposed to help my dd with depression. Now I know better. Junie, I am so sorry you had to experience that.

Yep, and now I know better, too.

I hope your dd is doing well.

 

[swimmermom3]

4 hours ago, StellaM said:

It's a fine line with all this talk of resilience. 

Resilience is a good quality to cultivate; it's not always a quality that can overcome the genetic luck of the draw. 

I would say my loved one is very resilient. that resilience helps them manage their illness most of the time. Sometimes resilence is not enough.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/02/09/depression-william-styron-darkness-visible/

I have been thinking more about this idea that in increase in teen and young adult suicides is tied to a lack of emotional resilience on their part. We don't let them suffer.

My oldest was 9 when the towers came down, old enough to know about the loss, but not really old enough to understand the magnitude and how that tragedy has slowly reshaped the American world into a less trusting, uglier one.

Are our young people really that insulated from challenge or pain?  In the ten years since my dd was first diagnosed with depression at age 15, she has experienced the suicide of a teacher, the death of a good friend due to a car accident, three suicides involving dear friends in their early 20s, the unexpected death of a beloved swim coach, the murder of a friend and mentor who had two young children, and most recently, the unexpected death of her aunt. At this rate, she should be the strongest person I know if suffering is a crucial factor for resilience.

How much inoculation can we do against loss and despair in those who are already dealing with a chemical imbalance?

It's easy in some ways to blame social media, but I still maintain that the horrendous commentary that the older generations fill the airwaves with is working to destabilize the feelings of safety and security for many in our society. "Screw political correctness" has been confused with "it's okay to say whatever hateful s*** fills your head that day." Personally, I have been stunned by the level of misogyny on display recently. A cousin who heads a family medical practice says that they are seeing far greater levels of depression since the 2016 election - on both sides of the political spectrum. Our children experience a lot of ugliness and often it is displayed by the adults who are supposed to be in charge and to keep them safe.

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, swimmermom3 said:

I have been thinking more about this idea that in increase in teen and young adult suicides is tied to a lack of emotional resilience on their part. We don't let them suffer.

My oldest was 9 when the towers came down, old enough to know about the loss, but not really old enough to understand the magnitude and how that tragedy has slowly reshaped the American world into a less trusting, uglier one.

Are our young people really that insulated from challenge or pain?  In the ten years since my dd was first diagnosed with depression at age 15, she has experienced the suicide of a teacher, the death of a good friend due to a car accident, three suicides involving dear friends in their early 20s, the unexpected death of a beloved swim coach, the murder of a friend and mentor who had two young children, and most recently, the unexpected death of her aunt. At this rate, she should be the strongest person I know if suffering is a crucial factor for resilience.

How much inoculation can we do against loss and despair in those who are already dealing with a chemical imbalance?

It's easy in some ways to blame social media, but I still maintain that the horrendous commentary that the older generations fill the airwaves with is working to destabilize the feelings of safety and security for many in our society. "Screw political correctness" has been confused with "it's okay to say whatever hateful s*** fills your head that day." Personally, I have been stunned by the level of misogyny on display recently. A cousin who heads a family medical practice says that they are seeing far greater levels of depression since the 2016 election - on both sides of the political spectrum. Our children experience a lot of ugliness and often it is displayed by the adults who are supposed to be in charge and to keep them safe.

Yeah maybe some of the problem is constantly being told how good we've got it and the disparity between the belief that we are better off as humans than ever before and the lived experience for some.  

[Rosie_0801]

17 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Two things:

One - I completely agree with you. 

Two - I think rosie was speaking in the limited context of euthanasia. I still don’t agree with her about it. Life has value. Full stop for me. No one gets to decide who’s life has value bc it’s done decided - ALL of them have value. No exceptions.

 

We are not disagreeing about all people's lives having value. We differ in how that respect manifests.

[J-rap]

Just some more varied thoughts...

About emotional resilience:  I agree that usually this doesn't need to be taught.  I think most kids just learn it naturally.  Probably every day holds little events that build emotional resilience.

I think a huge part of it is genetics:  some people are just more sensitive and fragile right from the get-go.  I see this in my own kids.  We certainly provided a hugely loving and supportive environment while also challenging them and letting them take risks and learn from life's ups and down (that would naturally help them to be emotionally resilient).  They all seem to have very sensitive hearts by nature, but one of them is particularly fragile and I do worry about him, a lot.  It doesn't have anything to do with growing up in an atmosphere of not learning emotional resilience.  And all of my kids grew up in a home that was stable and safe, always.  But I look at my family lineage and I see a relative in every generation who seems to have a fragile emotional state.  I think there's just a combination of genes that results in this.

Other people:  I do think other caring people in your lives can make a difference.  I remember at times being down and then one of my parents would bug me and practically force me to go out for lunch with them, for example.  It was probably the last thing I wanted to do;  I wanted to be alone and sulk instead. But going out for lunch with them was enough to pull me out of a strange dark mood that maybe left alone would have kept growing.  I can't explain it.  Just kind of a jolt to the system that gets things going on a different track in your mind.  (Sorry -- that's a simplistic example.)

I don't reach out to other people when I'm down.  I don't like this quality in me.  THAT part is cultural I think.  I do really try hard to not be this way with my kids more and more so that they come to think it's okay to talk openly about what you're dealing with.  But I also am embarrassed about feeling down.  (Again, I think that's cultural.)  Once when I felt I needed antidepressants after going through a traumatic experience, I finally brought it up with my doctor.  The prescription he gave me made me feel sick, and I stopped after five days.  I was too embarrassed to go back to the doctor again.

In general, I believe I AM very emotionally resilient and optimistic, even in bleak situations.  But I actually contribute that to genetics at the root, which then enabled me to more easily latch onto other things that help.

About religion's role:  I think it's odd that people equate religion to some morality about suicide.  I'm not even sure what that means.  How "religion" impacts me when in desperate circumstances is that I have a faith that leads me to believe that love prevails no matter what -- and that it is deeper and truer than anything we are experiencing in this life.  That it is larger than life.   And that this life is actually just a blip in the whole scheme of things.  Having that belief usually helps me get through very difficult days.  

But, not always.   I'm still susceptible to my brain's own doings.

[Bluegoat]

12 hours ago, swimmermom3 said:

 

I don't know many agnostics or atheists that prescribe to the viewpoint expressed in the first bolded paragraph.

If I were to generalize, several of the "nonbelievers" on this board often tend to express great compassion and love for their fellow human beings and to believe that each life is significant. There is a greater sense of interconnectedness and often, not always, far less grim judgement.

I have seen a great number of believers who lack empathy and compassion for anyone not in their religious circle.

I do not treat others with kindness ( I acknowledge that I am nowhere near perfect in this) because I fear eternal damnation, but because, I don't take pleasure in hurting others. It's not the legacy I want to leave.

 

Yes, lots of people have compassion for people.  The question is, why?  How does love fit into the construction of the universe?  Why does it matter what you do?  Most atheists in the modern west are either humanists, or a sort of logical positivist approach.  In either case, it's difficult to follow that "why' back to something in terms of it's being, its ontological grounding.  In the immediate you can say, well, it leads to greater happiness, sort of a utilitarian take, but it's still not clear in any objective way why that is meaningful. Is it just an emotion with an evolutionary advantage? If the sun exploded all of a sudden and we all died, what would it matter - just one more day in the universe.

Quite a few religions, most, talk about these kinds of questions, which are really outside the realm of empiricism, and which secular humanism seems to struggle with.  They locate the reasons for this in the nature of the universe, either through story or through philosophy.  There is a language and a set of concepts developed to talk about these ideas with some precision.  And there is generally a practice related to them as well - individual practice which is directed to helping people realize these ideas both intellectually and in their actions, and also in many cases practices for the community to do this together.

I think that for someone who is having a crises over meaning - the value of their own life in particular - these things are potentially a help.  It helps if you can know intellectually as well as feel that you r life has value, that you are connected in a web of other people, a community.  It helps to have language to think about that and talk about it.  IT helps to have stories and poetry and daily practices that strengthen mindfulness and awareness of these ideas.  It helps when there is a community who believes similar things and there practicing in a regular way.  

I'm not really sure why people would agree therapy would help, but not a spiritual system and practice.  Therapy has a lot going for it, but it doesn't really have an ontology to offer, and the focus has a tendency to be individualistic.  

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yes, lots of people have compassion for people.  The question is, why?  How does love fit into the construction of the universe?  Why does it matter what you do?  Most atheists in the modern west are either humanists, or a sort of logical positivist approach.  In either case, it's difficult to follow that "why' back to something in terms of it's being, its ontological grounding.  In the immediate you can say, well, it leads to greater happiness, sort of a utilitarian take, but it's still not clear in any objective way why that is meaningful. Is it just an emotion with an evolutionary advantage? If the sun exploded all of a sudden and we all died, what would it matter - just one more day in the universe.

Quite a few religions, most, talk about these kinds of questions, which are really outside the realm of empiricism, and which secular humanism seems to struggle with.  They locate the reasons for this in the nature of the universe, either through story or through philosophy.  There is a language and a set of concepts developed to talk about these ideas with some precision.  And there is generally a practice related to them as well - individual practice which is directed to helping people realize these ideas both intellectually and in their actions, and also in many cases practices for the community to do this together.

I think that for someone who is having a crises over meaning - the value of their own life in particular - these things are potentially a help.  It helps if you can know intellectually as well as feel that you r life has value, that you are connected in a web of other people, a community.  It helps to have language to think about that and talk about it.  IT helps to have stories and poetry and daily practices that strengthen mindfulness and awareness of these ideas.  It helps when there is a community who believes similar things and there practicing in a regular way.  

I'm not really sure why people would agree therapy would help, but not a spiritual system and practice.  Therapy has a lot going for it, but it doesn't really have an ontology to offer, and the focus has a tendency to be individualistic.  

Honestly, most atheists aren't that philosophical. They don't need a large philosophical apparatus to say, "Hmm, this all powerful, benevolent being thing doesn't seem to be true given what I observe in the world." That doesn't mean that they don't see the value in treating others as they would want to be treated. You can directly observe the consequences of being kind to others versus being a jerk. Most mature adults realize that being kind to others makes all of society a better place. (I'd even venture to say most a$$hattery occurs when someone thinks they're anonymous. They wouldn't put their IRL name to their hateful sentiments. Or they'll gaslight you to try to cover their tracks...)

I think therapy potentially helps anyone, while religion only helps those who can get on board with the theology behind the practice. Since many people attend services without actually believing the theology it's possible that religion wouldn't even be helpful to them except as a social support system. If you're not able to believe the theology, I don't see how the ontology would be of any use to you, they're a package deal.

[Murphy101]

5 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

We are not disagreeing about all people's lives having value. We differ in how that respect manifests.

 

I will concede that you can view it that way. For me, there’s no value given to a life someone is okay with ending or standing back and watching be ended prematurely. 

[Bluegoat]

50 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Honestly, most atheists aren't that philosophical. They don't need a large philosophical apparatus to say, "Hmm, this all powerful, benevolent being thing doesn't seem to be true given what I observe in the world." That doesn't mean that they don't see the value in treating others as they would want to be treated. You can directly observe the consequences of being kind to others versus being a jerk. Most mature adults realize that being kind to others makes all of society a better place. (I'd even venture to say most a$$hattery occurs when someone thinks they're anonymous. They wouldn't put their IRL name to their hateful sentiments. Or they'll gaslight you to try to cover their tracks...)

I think therapy potentially helps anyone, while religion only helps those who can get on board with the theology behind the practice. Since many people attend services without actually believing the theology it's possible that religion wouldn't even be helpful to them except as a social support system. If you're not able to believe the theology, I don't see how the ontology would be of any use to you, they're a package deal.

 

The theology is the point. 

If you are depressed because life has no meaning for you, you are beyond "oh, things seem nicer if we are all nice".  The meaninglessness, not caring about the individual, of the universe is yawning beneath your feet like a black pit and you aren't intuitively feeling connected to anything.

Of course if you think the black pit is real - well, why not, then?  Your existence really isn't important, you might as well do what you want.  So yes, you do have to buy into some theological system that says no - that's not the reality.

However, that isn't really down to people being philosophical in most cases.  Most people accept some version on the dominant worldview in their culture.  Right now, culturally, in the west, the yawning darkness is what most people are being offered. Mostly, they don't have easy access to the other intellectual options, many don't know they exist, they aren't exactly put forward as real possibilities sin the education that most people get.  Almost by default it supports positivism.  Most people are positivists by default, not because they have really embraces intellectually.  In the past, that view was not dominant, even those same kids of pele ascribed to a system which gave value to life and consciousness.

A major change like that is going to have an effect on what people do and how they think.  This is the major reason that social views on euthanasia have changed - a worldview change on a high level.

 

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yes, lots of people have compassion for people.  The question is, why?  How does love fit into the construction of the universe?  Why does it matter what you do?  Most atheists in the modern west are either humanists, or a sort of logical positivist approach.  In either case, it's difficult to follow that "why' back to something in terms of it's being, its ontological grounding.  In the immediate you can say, well, it leads to greater happiness, sort of a utilitarian take, but it's still not clear in any objective way why that is meaningful. Is it just an emotion with an evolutionary advantage? If the sun exploded all of a sudden and we all died, what would it matter - just one more day in the universe.

Quite a few religions, most, talk about these kinds of questions, which are really outside the realm of empiricism, and which secular humanism seems to struggle with.  They locate the reasons for this in the nature of the universe, either through story or through philosophy.  There is a language and a set of concepts developed to talk about these ideas with some precision.  And there is generally a practice related to them as well - individual practice which is directed to helping people realize these ideas both intellectually and in their actions, and also in many cases practices for the community to do this together.

I think that for someone who is having a crises over meaning - the value of their own life in particular - these things are potentially a help.  It helps if you can know intellectually as well as feel that you r life has value, that you are connected in a web of other people, a community.  It helps to have language to think about that and talk about it.  IT helps to have stories and poetry and daily practices that strengthen mindfulness and awareness of these ideas.  It helps when there is a community who believes similar things and there practicing in a regular way.  

I'm not really sure why people would agree therapy would help, but not a spiritual system and practice.  Therapy has a lot going for it, but it doesn't really have an ontology to offer, and the focus has a tendency to be individualistic.  

Does it really matter why?  I mean, if I contemplate religion and the reasons people think that theirs is literal and true, and how their evidence translates into meaning to them... well, it's never going to make any sense to me.  So what?  That doesn't change, elevate, or water down the meaning they feel.  My lack of understanding is irrelevant, and it's really none of my business, nor does anyone deserve my judgment or baiting.

When the non-religious state that they find plenty of meaning in life, telling them it can't be as real as yours because it isn't in terms you understand is ludicrous. 

People have been known to say that they backed out of suicide for the sake of their pets.  I can't wrap my mind around that one, but good on them!

[swimmermom3]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yes, lots of people have compassion for people.  The question is, why?  How does love fit into the construction of the universe?  Why does it matter what you do?  Most atheists in the modern west are either humanists, or a sort of logical positivist approach.  In either case, it's difficult to follow that "why' back to something in terms of it's being, its ontological grounding.  In the immediate you can say, well, it leads to greater happiness, sort of a utilitarian take, but it's still not clear in any objective way why that is meaningful. Is it just an emotion with an evolutionary advantage? If the sun exploded all of a sudden and we all died, what would it matter - just one more day in the universe.

Quite a few religions, most, talk about these kinds of questions, which are really outside the realm of empiricism, and which secular humanism seems to struggle with.  They locate the reasons for this in the nature of the universe, either through story or through philosophy.  There is a language and a set of concepts developed to talk about these ideas with some precision.  And there is generally a practice related to them as well - individual practice which is directed to helping people realize these ideas both intellectually and in their actions, and also in many cases practices for the community to do this together.

I think that for someone who is having a crises over meaning - the value of their own life in particular - these things are potentially a help.  It helps if you can know intellectually as well as feel that you r life has value, that you are connected in a web of other people, a community.  It helps to have language to think about that and talk about it.  IT helps to have stories and poetry and daily practices that strengthen mindfulness and awareness of these ideas.  It helps when there is a community who believes similar things and there practicing in a regular way.  

I'm not really sure why people would agree therapy would help, but not a spiritual system and practice.  Therapy has a lot going for it, but it doesn't really have an ontology to offer, and the focus has a tendency to be individualistic.  

Bluegoat, I always enjoy your posts. They usually challenge me to think a bit deeper and at the very least, to pull out my dictionary.

That said, I doubt my answer, which of course is simply a personal reflection, will answer your question at the intellectual level you are looking for.

I agree that for some who are in crises over the value of their own life, a specific language, a set of concepts, a routine practice based in religion can be very helpful. But as many have pointed out here, those same elements, depending on how they are presented and/or interpreted can be soul crushing. For example, I am of a generation that remembers being told that divorced people would go to hell and sitting in a "pro-life" school assembly where a priest told a 15 yo girl that her mother should have chosen death (and willingly leave behind her six kids) instead of having an abortion. If you are LGBTQ, you have been outside the embrace of Christianity and other faiths for much of their existence. Parents who are told their children are an aberration may not find comfort in organized religion.

 

 

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

However, that isn't really down to people being philosophical in most cases.  Most people accept some version on the dominant worldview in their culture.  Right now, culturally, in the west, the yawning darkness is what most people are being offered. Mostly, they don't have easy access to the other intellectual options, many don't know they exist, they aren't exactly put forward as real possibilities sin the education that most people get.  Almost by default it supports positivism.  Most people are positivists by default, not because they have really embraces intellectually.  In the past, that view was not dominant, even those same kids of pele ascribed to a system which gave value to life and consciousness.

A major change like that is going to have an effect on what people do and how they think.  This is the major reason that social views on euthanasia have changed - a worldview change on a high level.

 

Wow, we really do live in diametrically opposed societies. In my suburb of Houston, Christianity, specifically evangelical Christianity, is the dominant worldview. In fact, you are well served to camouflage yourself if you subscribe to any other belief because you will be shunned. There are plenty of people denying the reality of their sensory experience of natural phenomena because it conflicts with the current political commitments of their brand of Christianity. I would love to move to your society except I'd freeze to death the first winter.

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

Does it really matter why?  I mean, if I contemplate religion and the reasons people think that theirs is literal and true, and how their evidence translates into meaning to them... well, it's never going to make any sense to me.  So what?  That doesn't change, elevate, or water down the meaning they feel.  My lack of understanding is irrelevant, and it's really none of my business, nor does anyone deserve my judgment or baiting.

When the non-religious state that they find plenty of meaning in life, telling them it can't be as real as yours because it isn't in terms you understand is ludicrous. 

People have been known to say that they backed out of suicide for the sake of their pets.  I can't wrap my mind around that one, but good on them!

 

It's not, in the context of the OP question, a question about individuals.  It is a question about a population.  Why is suicide going up.  

If you have a population where the dominant belief system says every individual life is in some way indispensable, compared to one which advocates sacrificing ones life for others in suicide, you'd expect it to make a difference over-all.  Not everyone will respond in the same way, and there will be other factors, but it will affect how people see their own situation.  

In this case, we've moved from the former view to some sort of positivism or postmodernism.  What that says about individual value is limited. On a population level, that will affect people, perhaps especially those who are in an existential crisis.  It will frame their decisions.  It's not random that its under the latter view that some types of suicide have become acceptable.

I'm not sure why you'd think the question of whether meaning, or different kinds of meaning, have a rational foundation is ludicrous, or unimportant to people.

[Bluegoat]

29 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Wow, we really do live in diametrically opposed societies. In my suburb of Houston, Christianity, specifically evangelical Christianity, is the dominant worldview. In fact, you are well served to camouflage yourself if you subscribe to any other belief because you will be shunned. There are plenty of people denying the reality of their sensory experience of natural phenomena because it conflicts with the current political commitments of their brand of Christianity. I would love to move to your society except I'd freeze to death the first winter.

 

The US is pretty different than most other western countries, I think, in terms of religious expression.  Even the non-religious population and the Christian population often seem more American than akin to those same groups elsewhere.

[Murphy101]

All humans need an external framework. It’s why we have laws and social norms.

I mean should we really need a law saying not to go 50mph in a school zone? No. And yet I bet we all agree that yep, what humans should do it isn’t enough compulsion for too many people. So we have laws to compel them.

We shouldn’t have to have laws saying you can’t refuse water to someone asking, especially when it’s hot outside.  But there’s a sad pathetic understanding of humans that required that be on the law for good reason. 

The catholic term for this is imperfect obedience.  Perfect obedience is living according to god simply because it’s right and true.  Imperfect is doing so because even though we would rather not for whatever reason, we do so anyways. Either to please god or to avoid his punishment or simply bc we are trusting He wouldn’t command it unless it was toward Good. 

Being imperfect humans in and of itself doesn’t make us awful people. Acknowledging it often seems to suck to do the right thing doesn’t make the doing of the right thing less good to do.  

But let’s not kid ourselves. Humans suck. And they are social creatures.  They need framework to feel secure and safe. And sometimes to actually be secure and safe.  Not believing in god =\= actually believing in anarchy. 

Eta: now I would be amendable to the possibility that the removal of god has left many with a cultural and or spiritual void. They are possibly seeking belief or place in the world and finding nothing but the need to endure law, which is a rather hollow substitute to say the least. 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

The catholic term for this is imperfect obedience.  Perfect obedience is living according to god simply because it’s right and true.  Imperfect is doing so because even though we would rather not for whatever reason, we do so anyways. Either to please god or to avoid his punishment or simply bc we are trusting He wouldn’t command it unless it was toward Good. 

considering all the atrocities humans have committed  convinced they were acting on God's command and in His name, I think humans' interpretation can be pretty unreliable.

[Murphy101]

Just now, regentrude said:

considering all the atrocities humans have committed  convinced they were acting on God's command and in His name, I think humans' interpretation can be pretty unreliable.

 

So?  Refer back to my statement that humans suck.

It’s not like humans who don’t have religion suck any less. They just don’t get to add the blasphemy of blaming God for their bad logic or atrocities.  

[regentrude]

5 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yes, lots of people have compassion for people.  The question is, why?  How does love fit into the construction of the universe?  Why does it matter what you do?  Most atheists in the modern west are either humanists, or a sort of logical positivist approach.  In either case, it's difficult to follow that "why' back to something in terms of it's being, its ontological grounding.  In the immediate you can say, well, it leads to greater happiness, sort of a utilitarian take, but it's still not clear in any objective way why that is meaningful. Is it just an emotion with an evolutionary advantage?

Yes, probably. Primates display (what we would interpret as )compassion.

[Bluegoat]

21 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Yes, probably. Primates display (what we would interpret as )compassion.

 

And if someone believes that, that it has no structural reality beyond survival of the fittest, how does that look if you are a person prone to depression and feel disconnected, and trying to find something that they can live for?  Love becomes a kind of chemical trick to make you behave in a certain deterministic way.

That might seem a bleak interpretation, but if you are in a bleak frame of mind, it not only feels true but makes rational sense from that perspective.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Bluegoat said:

And if someone believes that, that it has no structural reality beyond survival of the fittest, how does that look if you are a person prone to depression and feel disconnected, and trying to find something that they can live for?  Love becomes a kind of chemical trick to make you behave in a certain deterministic way. That might seem a bleak interpretation, but if you are in a bleak frame of mind, it not only feels true but makes rational sense from that perspective.

But a depressed person's interpretation of love can be very skewed. Often, the person commits suicide because he is genuinely convinced it is better for his beloved family. Parents who commit murder-suicide are often convinced to act out of love. 

[Bluegoat]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But a depressed person's interpretation of love can be very skewed. Often, the person commits suicide because he is genuinely convinced it is better for his beloved family. Parents who commit murder-suicide are often convinced to act out of love. 

 

Sure.  I'm not sure what you are getting at in relation to what I said though.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

Sure.  I'm not sure what you are getting at in relation to what I said though.

My first post commented on your remark about "how does love fit into the construction of the universe".  My point was that even IF one thinks the universe is all about love and love is the ultimate goal or whatever philosophy about how my life connects to others, it will not prevent a person from committing suicide if they consider it an act of love to relieve one's loved ones of the burden.

So in this context, seeing "love as chemical trick" might not have been a bad thing

[Terabith]

I'm being very careful not to delve too deeply into this, but I think the theology can be either protective or a hindrance to mental health.  What I do think that benefits most people of faith who participate in it is community/ support system.  Even just singing together with other people is good for you.  It's one of the things I like about the Unitarians, is that it's a place that most people who don't really subscribe to a particular faith can be a part of a supportive community.

[swimmermom3]

8 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

It's not, in the context of the OP question, a question about individuals.  It is a question about a population.  Why is suicide going up.  

If you have a population where the dominant belief system says every individual life is in some way indispensable, compared to one which advocates sacrificing ones life for others in suicide, you'd expect it to make a difference over-all.  Not everyone will respond in the same way, and there will be other factors, but it will affect how people see their own situation.  

In this case, we've moved from the former view to some sort of positivism or postmodernism.  What that says about individual value is limited. On a population level, that will affect people, perhaps especially those who are in an existential crisis.  It will frame their decisions.  It's not random that its under the latter view that some types of suicide have become acceptable.

I'm not sure why you'd think the question of whether meaning, or different kinds of meaning, have a rational foundation is ludicrous, or unimportant to people.

 

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the primary cause for suicide rates going up is due to the waning of Christianity (dominant belief system)? I would need to know about the faith status of those who committed suicide  to validate this presumption first, wouldn't I? Do dominant faith systems truly act in a manner that demonstrates that every individual life is in some way indispensable? More importantly, do people always perceive that the dominant faith system values each life? I would argue that "indispensable" places human life on the level of a tool. I am still struggling with the idea that severe human suffering of one person may not serve them, but that may help someone else is a beautiful thing, a good thing.

What Carrie said was: When the non-religious state that they find plenty of meaning in life, telling them it can't be as real as yours because it isn't in terms you understand is ludicrous. 

I understand why you think the meaning of the life that is you experience is more real than mine, but I am not sure that is actually a logical conclusion. How do you know whether others have or don't have a "rational" foundation for their belief system? At one time, all dominant faith systems were the thoughts of one man or a handful of men, regardless of the stories that have grown around them through history. For example, we have various men's testimonies that the word came from God, yet we have no concrete actual proof. It is taken on faith. Is this a rational construct?

I think we have to be careful in discussing religion and suicide. Saying that if everyone believed in the redemptive power of God, we would fewer suicides, may not be a true statement. Many practice religion in a way that is unyielding, unkind, and in no way a healthy thing for a mind that struggles for meaning and value. Think of the major message of Christianity - "We are unworthy, but for God's love."  "Unworthy" is a word that many of those who are struggling are all too familiar with. Also, think of the language that appears after a natural disaster, " This is God's punishment because we allow same-sex marriage." It's not an uncommon expression. So if you are struggling with self-worth, being told you are responsible for the deaths in Puerto Rico is not exactly an uplifting experience.

Bluegoat, I am not telling you I think you are wrong. I am just working out all my own jumbled thoughts at the expense of your time and brain power. Sorry about that.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My first post commented on your remark about "how does love fit into the construction of the universe".  My point was that even IF one thinks the universe is all about love and love is the ultimate goal or whatever philosophy about how my life connects to others, it will not prevent a person from committing suicide if they consider it an act of love to relieve one's loved ones of the burden.

So in this context, seeing "love as chemical trick" might not have been a bad thing

 

Yes, it would depend on how that was conceptualized in that worldview, particularly with relation to the role of the individual.  

[swimmermom3]

59 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

So?  Refer back to my statement that humans suck.

It’s not like humans who don’t have religion suck any less. They just don’t get to add the blasphemy of blaming God for their bad logic or atrocities.  

Darn it, Murphy! I am going to start charging you for the coffee I spit out.

You know, I also can't say "the devil made me do it."

[Bluegoat]

5 hours ago, swimmermom3 said:

 

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the primary cause for suicide rates going up is due to the waning of Christianity (dominant belief system)? I would need to know about the faith status of those who committed suicide  to validate this presumption first, wouldn't I? Do dominant faith systems truly act in a manner that demonstrates that every individual life is in some way indispensable? More importantly, do people always perceive that the dominant faith system values each life? I would argue that "indispensable" places human life on the level of a tool. I am still struggling with the idea that severe human suffering of one person may not serve them, but that may help someone else is a beautiful thing, a good thing.

What Carrie said was: When the non-religious state that they find plenty of meaning in life, telling them it can't be as real as yours because it isn't in terms you understand is ludicrous. 

I understand why you think the meaning of the life that is you experience is more real than mine, but I am not sure that is actually a logical conclusion. How do you know whether others have or don't have a "rational" foundation for their belief system? At one time, all dominant faith systems were the thoughts of one man or a handful of men, regardless of the stories that have grown around them through history. For example, we have various men's testimonies that the word came from God, yet we have no concrete actual proof. It is taken on faith. Is this a rational construct?

I think we have to be careful in discussing religion and suicide. Saying that if everyone believed in the redemptive power of God, we would fewer suicides, may not be a true statement. Many practice religion in a way that is unyielding, unkind, and in no way a healthy thing for a mind that struggles for meaning and value. Think of the major message of Christianity - "We are unworthy, but for God's love."  "Unworthy" is a word that many of those who are struggling are all too familiar with. Also, think of the language that appears after a natural disaster, " This is God's punishment because we allow same-sex marriage." It's not an uncommon expression. So if you are struggling with self-worth, being told you are responsible for the deaths in Puerto Rico is not exactly an uplifting experience.

Bluegoat, I am not telling you I think you are wrong. I am just working out all my own jumbled thoughts at the expense of your time and brain power. Sorry about that.

 

 

 

I'm not telling anyone their terms are "less real".  I am saying that when someone is looking for meaning, the dominant worldview they encounter will give different answers to them.

The question of whether there is meaning in suffering is a good example - if that is a possibility on offer, it offers a different direction than a dominant worldview that sees suffering as meaningless or evil.  How would a person experiencing serious suffering in different constructions of this understand their position and potential response?  

People certainly do not always understand their cultural worldview as really expressing it's rational foundations consistently.  There are all kinds of reasons for that.  In many cases there is a gap between what people get in an everyday kind of example and what philosophers or spiritual leaders, "experts," see.  Superstition has tended to be common among the uneducated historically for that reason, but even now, people's interest in delving into such things is limited by circumstance and inclination.  And societies often compromise or are even corrupted because people are imperfect or limited.  

And yet at the same time I think that we can see that different cultures today, and in the past, really have had views on these questions that affected their approach to existential issues and angst, even down to regular people.  Their stories, their customs largely reflect these thingsThere have been major shifts in cultural practice to go along with major shots in worldview.  We see that if we look at the introduction of Christianity into the Roman empire for example - views on many things changed, some more quickly and some over time - suicide, abortion, rights of fathers over families, views on witchcraft, views on slavery.  Many of those were related to how they valued individuals.

Now we see a movement to a different worldview in many places.  It's coming out of Christianity so it's tended to share some of its features, but it should not seem odd to think it would create differences, more realized over time.  One feature I think has been a view of the individuals place in the universe that is in some ways more like the Roman or Greek or philosophical view, it's more depersonalized.  It's also often very focused on empiricism.  That may be something that over time is being more reflected in its beliefs about other things.

I suspect finding out the belief system of every suicide would be impossible, and the other issue is, that even Christians living in a society that accepts certain views as the norm will tend to be influenced by that.  This is where I would say, we can see that our views on suicide, as a society, have changed - I think that's a factual statement rather than an interpretation.  We accept it in a way we did not before.  Could that have an effect also on other people who consider suicide?  

With regards to others rational belief - yes, individuals have a variety of systems.  But in terms of the new systems that have come to dominate as popular views - a kind of platonism in the Enlightenment, empiricism, logical positivism - we can take those apart and work out the implications - many people have done so, in philosophical forums but also in literature and art.  I think its fair to say there is a significant view that there is a different feel to the implications for meaning and value in these kinds of systems, including from the people who believe in them, than there was in Christianity.  I take my view from my own attempts to deconstruct the implications and also from others who have done so. (And - there are other belief systems around now, and some maybe on the wane.  Some, like logical positivism is considered passe among philosophers, but it's still common in pop literature.  I'm suggesting that they are important because so many regular people take them as a basic worldview, even without really realizing it. sometimes)

Now, anyone could make an argument that yes, there is a way a belief system like this could create a sense of meaning and individual value that would work against utilitarian views of life.  But I'm not really seeing anyone doing that, they seem to be saying that they find value, but not how that is inherent in those belief systems or really supported by them.

[swimmermom3]

Did the other threads on KS and AT link any articles on the rise of suicides? I have found some interesting articles, but didn't want to repeat what was said on other threads. I just flipped through the first pages of both and that was enough for me.

Katy, thanks for starting this thread. The aspect around religion as a protective element as has interesting and I appreciate the civility.

I am also grateful to those who have shared their own experiences. As the mother of two adult children that have struggled with depression and after having nearly lost one in a suicide attempt, I am always asking "why?"

[swimmermom3]

This is from a psychiatrist's opinion piece in The New York Times.

With regards to our perception that suicide rates are rising or perhaps that the good, old days were better:

In 2016, 45,000 Americans took their own lives.

However, according to Dr. Friedman, things have been this bad and worse many times in our history. Suicides typically increase in a time of social strife: 17.4 per 100,00 in 1932. The suicide rate last year was 13.7, which is apparently nearly the same as it was a century ago.

Suicide was the 10th leading cause of death last year, but the NIH spent more money researching dietary supplements than suicide and suicide prevention, in part due to the stigma still attached to suicide.

I think that someone else already quoted the fact that 90% of completed suicides were traceable to a diagnosable mental illness. So Dr. Friedman concludes that at least theoretically that suicides should be preventable if we can deliver the right treatment - and that is a huge "if."

"Unfortunately, it’s hard to know which treatments are most effective at preventing suicides because most studies of mental health interventions specifically exclude suicidal subjects. (This is because ethics boards are typically reluctant to allow people at this kind of risk to receive a placebo treatment.) One notable exception is a Johns Hopkins study of a group of Danish patients showing that deaths by suicide were about a quarter lower in people who had six to 10 talk therapy sessions.  "

Something new I had not heard of was a new app called Therapeutic Evaluative Conditioning that supposedly makes people adverse to suicidal ideation or to self-harm. I think I would want to see some long term studies on that.

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Wow, we really do live in diametrically opposed societies. In my suburb of Houston, Christianity, specifically evangelical Christianity, is the dominant worldview. In fact, you are well served to camouflage yourself if you subscribe to any other belief because you will be shunned. There are plenty of people denying the reality of their sensory experience of natural phenomena because it conflicts with the current political commitments of their brand of Christianity. I would love to move to your society except I'd freeze to death the first winter.

I think this is probably true. I also am starting to think that the Christianity Bluegoat has known is not similar to some of what passes for Christiantity in the USA, especially rural southern areas. 

When we talk about religion, we need to acknowledge that it depends on the religion, just like when we talk about family  it depends on the family. A supportive, healthy family can be protective. An abusive family would be damaging. Same with religion. 

A religion teaching that all humans have intrinsic value no matter what they do or say or believe is going to have a different impact than one saying a bunch of people are going to hell, probably including you.