Why is the rate of suicide increasing so much?

[BeachGal]

Charles Raison, a professor of psychiatry and depression researcher, is an interesting person to follow. Depression is often seen in people who are slightly warmer than others. They run about 2 degrees hotter than non-depressed people. There is a pathway in our skin that controls a specific area of the brain that can cause depression. Raison designed a way to recalibrate the pathway using a 2-hour sauna (145 degrees) which had interesting results. It's worth watching this short Ted Talk he gave in 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDvAsp3ySEo

A longer, more recent and meatier version is here with Rhonda Patrick (scientist):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DtJGJWjDys

I take a daily dry sauna for about 30" at about 194 degrees and don't find it all that unbearable. (It's a good place to read, too.) Many benefits from sauna including significantly reducing rates of mortality.

Other things can help too -- exercise, tweaking circadian rhythms, social connections, the microbiota. Hopefully, we'll be able to devise easy and elegant ways to help those who are suffering.

[Selkie]

6 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Charles Raison, a professor of psychiatry and depression researcher, is an interesting person to follow. Depression is often seen in people who are slightly warmer than others. They run about 2 degrees hotter than non-depressed people. There is a pathway in our skin that controls a specific area of the brain that can cause depression. Raison designed a way to recalibrate the pathway using a 2-hour sauna (145 degrees) which had interesting results. It's worth watching this short Ted Talk he gave in 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDvAsp3ySEo

A longer, more recent and meatier version is here with Rhonda Patrick (scientist):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DtJGJWjDys

I take a daily dry sauna for about 30" at about 194 degrees and don't find it all that unbearable. (It's a good place to read, too.) Many benefits from sauna including significantly reducing rates of mortality.

Other things can help too -- exercise, tweaking circadian rhythms, social connections, the microbiota. Hopefully, we'll be able to devise easy and elegant ways to help those who are suffering.

This is so interesting. We're putting a sauna in our house, and now I'm looking forward to seeing how it affects my mood and anxiety level. Thanks for the links!

[Murphy101]

I’m 80% sure being able to afford to put a sauna in my house would be helpful to my state of mind lately.

Money might not buy happiness. But it comes close enough.

*sigh*

[ktgrok]

Ooh, my husband has mood issues and yes, always runs warm. Going to show this to him. 

[BeachGal]

7 minutes ago, Selkie said:

This is so interesting. We're putting a sauna in our house, and now I'm looking forward to seeing how it affects my mood and anxiety level. Thanks for the links!

 

Rhonda Patrick has some other videos out about the benefits of sauna.

Might as well check out her video with Wim Hof, too. LOL. He's the HYPOthermia guy. "Cold is your warm friend." Wim's methods yield incredible health benefits, too, and he can train just about anyone to do what he does. I've yet to take on the cold like he does, though. Fabulous for the immune system. Maybe you could go jump in the snow afterward? ?

[BeachGal]

4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m 80% sure being able to afford to put a sauna in my house would be helpful to my state of mind lately.

Money might not buy happiness. But it comes close enough.

*sigh*

 

A very hot bath or shower can help, too. Or, the poor man's sauna -- sitting in a hot car! Just be mindful and well hydrated. ?

Raison's control in his study was a box that blew slightly warm, but not hot temps for about 2 hours and even at the lower heat, they saw some surprisingly good results. He talks about this in his interview with Rhonda.

[chiguirre]

3 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I'm not telling anyone their terms are "less real".  I am saying that when someone is looking for meaning, the dominant worldview they encounter will give different answers to them.

The question of whether there is meaning in suffering is a good example - if that is a possibility on offer, it offers a different direction than a dominant worldview that sees suffering as meaningless or evil.  How would a person experiencing serious suffering in different constructions of this understand their position and potential response?  

People certainly do not always understand their cultural worldview as really expressing it's rational foundations consistently.  There are all kinds of reasons for that.  In many cases there is a gap between what people get in an everyday kind of example and what philosophers or spiritual leaders, "experts," see.  Superstition has tended to be common among the uneducated historically for that reason, but even now, people's interest in delving into such things is limited by circumstance and inclination.  And societies often compromise or are even corrupted because people are imperfect or limited.  

And yet at the same time I think that we can see that different cultures today, and in the past, really have had views on these questions that affected their approach to existential issues and angst, even down to regular people.  Their stories, their customs largely reflect these thingsThere have been major shifts in cultural practice to go along with major shots in worldview.  We see that if we look at the introduction of Christianity into the Roman empire for example - views on many things changed, some more quickly and some over time - suicide, abortion, rights of fathers over families, views on witchcraft, views on slavery.  Many of those were related to how they valued individuals.

Now we see a movement to a different worldview in many places.  It's coming out of Christianity so it's tended to share some of its features, but it should not seem odd to think it would create differences, more realized over time.  One feature I think has been a view of the individuals place in the universe that is in some ways more like the Roman or Greek or philosophical view, it's more depersonalized.  It's also often very focused on empiricism.  That may be something that over time is being more reflected in its beliefs about other things.

I suspect finding out the belief system of every suicide would be impossible, and the other issue is, that even Christians living in a society that accepts certain views as the norm will tend to be influenced by that.  This is where I would say, we can see that our views on suicide, as a society, have changed - I think that's a factual statement rather than an interpretation.  We accept it in a way we did not before.  Could that have an effect also on other people who consider suicide?  

With regards to others rational belief - yes, individuals have a variety of systems.  But in terms of the new systems that have come to dominate as popular views - a kind of platonism in the Enlightenment, empiricism, logical positivism - we can take those apart and work out the implications - many people have done so, in philosophical forums but also in literature and art.  I think its fair to say there is a significant view that there is a different feel to the implications for meaning and value in these kinds of systems, including from the people who believe in them, than there was in Christianity.  I take my view from my own attempts to deconstruct the implications and also from others who have done so. (And - there are other belief systems around now, and some maybe on the wane.  Some, like logical positivism is considered pause among philosophers, but it's still common in pop literature.  I'm suggesting that they are important because so many regular people take them as a basic worldview, even without really realizing it. sometimes)

Now, anyone could make an argument that yes, there is a way a belief system like this could create a sense of meaning and individual value that would work against utilitarian views of life.  But I'm not really seeing anyone doing that, they seem to be saying that they find value, but not how that is inherent in those belief systems or really supported by them.

You keep referring to a dominant worldview that does not correspond to the actual dominant worldview most readers here experience. Your analysis would be much easier to understand if you'd just say secular humanism or positivism or whatever worldview you're currently referring to. I keep having to remind myself that you are taking the view that the vast majority of people are not Christians. While that might be true on a worldwide basis, it isn't true of the US. Since we're discussing US suicide rates, I think the American cultural context of dominant Christianity, especially dominant evangelical Christianity should be acknowledged.

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

You keep referring to a dominant worldview that does not correspond to the actual dominant worldview most readers here experience. Your analysis would be much easier to understand if you'd just say secular humanism or positivism or whatever worldview you're currently referring to. I keep having to remind myself that you are taking the view that the vast majority of people are not Christians. While that might be true on a worldwide basis, it isn't true of the US. Since we're discussing US suicide rates, I think the American cultural context of dominant Christianity, especially dominant evangelical Christianity should be acknowledged.

I’ve also found it confusing. For instance, people have been talking about possible increasing euthanasia rates in some European countries and linking that increased secularism. But regardless of whether or not that is happening, I think it’s pretty clear most of those countries do a far better job than the US of valuing and caring for all of their citizens. Well I would hope euthanasia and abortion would be rare eveywhere, I don’t think they can be the only benchmarks by which we measure whether a particular society or country values human life. Just go check out the thread on asylum for DV victims, and you will see Christians on opposite sides of the issue arguing with each other, using their faith as the basis for their position.

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Hmm, the talk on the radio yesterday was far more prosaic - a severe depression following job loss in industries that will never return, facing unemployment, or insecure employment for up to a decade following the loss....and - we've talked about this before - the proposed 'solution' being retrain! move away from your friends and family to the big job centres! it's up to you to turn this around!

Or a severe depression upon leaving the armed forces where the structure and familial environment is the thing holding someone, and their PTSD, together. 

Middle aged men, mostly, not having existential crises, but having crises brought on by their environments, with inadequate support provided to cope. Not just mental health support either.

I'd like to run a study in the job loss cohort, looking at those whose companies have best practice in terms of reskilling and finding employees in  jobs in the community before they close down, and those who don't, and compare rates of self harm, suicide attempts and suicides between the two groups. Just as you have a hunch it's down to the loss of religion, I have a hunch it's down - in this cohort, anyway - the one that's growing - to a mechanistic economy, where people are cogs, to be used and discarded. 

And no, I don't think religion protects against this mechanistic approach, neccessarily.

I also think it's an error to assume those who commit suicide find no meaning in life. 

Pragmatically, I think religion has traditionally provided less of the meaning, when it comes to suicide, and more of the taboo. Taboos are pretty powerful when it comes to reigning in human impulses, that's why we have them.  

On another note, re co-operation and compassion in the absence of God...they seem like traits that can enhance survival of the group, so it's unsurprising we'd evolve to have that capacity. 

 

 

 

 

I'd tend to think that elements like worldview work on one axis, then things like external circumstances - job loss for example -  are another.  I'm not sure which something like social isolation would fall, it could be either depending on whether it was circumstantial or based on the social values.  Then of course the mental health and even temperament of the person will be a factor.

I'm sure taboos are a factor too.  Or, from the opposite direction, social norms that demand suicide in certain instances, or just traditional practices.

I don't know about taboos vs meaning.  I am not that moved by taboos, but I'm interested in meaning, whereas lots of people probably feel differently.  I guess I'd wonder, in terms of assisted dying becoming much more normative in some cultures, heralded as a brave choice that asserts autonomy - is that more about perceived change of meaning with regards to life and death or personhood, or lifting a taboo?  Or maybe neither - one of the interesting things mentioned in the article upthread about Belgium was that even there, people who are interested in assisted death are often more afraid of loss of independence than anything else.

I think you are probably right that people seeing themselves as a cog, often in meaningless work or at least work that they don't really believe is important, is a big issue.  Especially when they find they can't really support themselves of a family, which most people get a lot of meaning from.  

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, chiguirre said:

You keep referring to a dominant worldview that does not correspond to the actual dominant worldview most readers here experience. Your analysis would be much easier to understand if you'd just say secular humanism or positivism or whatever worldview you're currently referring to. I keep having to remind myself that you are taking the view that the vast majority of people are not Christians. While that might be true on a worldwide basis, it isn't true of the US. Since we're discussing US suicide rates, I think the American cultural context of dominant Christianity, especially dominant evangelical Christianity should be acknowledged.

 

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I’ve also found it confusing. For instance, people have been talking about possible increasing euthanasia rates in some European countries and linking that increased secularism. But regardless of whether or not that is happening, I think it’s pretty clear most of those countries do a far better job than the US of valuing and caring for all of their citizens. Well I would hope euthanasia and abortion would be rare eveywhere, I don’t think they can be the only benchmarks by which we measure whether a particular society or country values human life. Just go check out the thread on asylum for DV victims, and you will see Christians on opposite sides of the issue arguing with each other, using their faith as the basis for their position.

 

I suppose part of the issue is that while a lot of Americans are Christians, I think quite a few of them have actually taken on a lot of belief elements of non-Christian thought systems.  

Anyway - as far as the OP question, it's really talking about since about the year 2000.  I'd put my money on internet effects, plus economic effects.

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

I’ve also found it confusing. For instance, people have been talking about possible increasing euthanasia rates in some European countries and linking that increased secularism. But regardless of whether or not that is happening, I think it’s pretty clear most of those countries do a far better job than the US of valuing and caring for all of their citizens. Well I would hope euthanasia and abortion would be rare eveywhere, I don’t think they can be the only benchmarks by which we measure whether a particular society or country values human life. Just go check out the thread on asylum for DV victims, and you will see Christians on opposite sides of the issue arguing with each other, using their faith as the basis for their position.

 

I think dead is a mighty clear line in the sand final benchmark to have for whether a life is valued or not. Can’t be less valued than okay with it no longer existing.

The only benchmark? No. I’ve never advocated it be only the benchmark.

It’s entirely possible to be genuinely pro life with all that life entails. It’s the entire point of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy and the beatitudes.  

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I think dead is a mighty clear line in the sand final benchmark to have for whether a life is valued or not. Can’t be less valued than okay with it no longer existing.

The only benchmark? No. I’ve never advocated it be only the benchmark.

It’s entirely possible to be genuinely pro life with all that life entails. It’s the entire point of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy and the beatitudes.  

 

But there are lots of other things that lead to death that many countries handle better than the US, including gun violence, access to affordable healthcare, and the criminal justice system to name just a few. While I’m sure there are people out there who are genuinely pro life with all that entails, I think either they are increasingly rare or there is just no remote consensus on what that actually means. Having grown up Catholic, it’s basically how I was raised. But as I posted up thread, going out into the real world as a young adult was a bit of a shocker to me when I discovered that not only did many Christians have a very different view of living out their faith, but so did many other Catholics.

[Murphy101]

13 minutes ago, Frances said:

But there are lots of other things that lead to death that many countries handle better than the US, including gun violence, access to affordable healthcare, and the criminal justice system to name just a few. While I’m sure there are people out there who are genuinely pro life with all that entails, I think either they are increasingly rare or there is just no remote consensus on what that actually means. Having grown up Catholic, it’s basically how I was raised. But as I posted up thread, going out into the real world as a young adult was a bit of a shocker to me when I discovered that not only did many Christians have a very different view of living out their faith, but so did many other Catholics.

 

And that brings us back to my humans suck theory on that. 

It’s not news that many Christians seem to be at odds with living the beliefs their church proclaims. 

For my catholic twist on that, we are called practicing Catholics because we are practicing at it. Some need more practice than others. (Myself included.)  It also brings to light the value of imperfect obedience for the sake of others over our own wants. 

[ktgrok]

14 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

 

You can't just say Christianity in the USA. Sorry, but I live in the USA, and Christianity here (pushed into the shadows) is very different than Christianity in say southern California, Nevada, the South, etc. etc. 

Christianity is by far not the dominant worldview where I live in the United States. 

That's why I said "some of", not all of ?