Why is the rate of suicide increasing so much?

[maize]

9 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Because I’m not asking for me, I’m asking philosophically why you (general opposing you) would think that ontology DIDN’T matter.  I’ve already discussed why it does, and been disagreed with, but without substantive reasons why.

 

It doesn't matter where mental illness is involved because the ontology you discuss requires a functioning brain.

Malfunctioning brains make ontology irrelevant.

Now, if there is a significant percentage of suicides happening with no mental illness component ontology may be one relevant factor.

Probably less relevant than access to guns as guns are an easy method that doesn't require any planning or preparation and are successful at a much higher rate than most other methods.

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I want to preface this by saying I am Christian. I think the religion question is a red herring.  If you are in a healthy relationship with your religion, it's making your life better and supporting you in a myriad of ways.  Unfortunately not everyone has that experience.  Many people suffer religious abuse, find it has an extremely negative impact on their health (mentally and otherwise), and are much happier and healthier getting rid of it.  The idea that there are no ethics apart from religion is sanctimonious at best and ignorant prejudice at worst.  If you've had mostly good spiritual experiences and only a few abusive ones you're more likely to just find another church than you are to abandon religion altogether.

The church my dad grew up in nearly destroyed him.  A Sunday school teacher had a meltdown at him and his friend for talking in class and he internalized the message that he was bad and was going to hell. So that's the way he lived the rest of his life.   We have many close friends that are atheist or agnostic because they were raised with religious abuse.  They are some of the MOST MORAL people I know. In one case I'm pretty sure she gave up on religion because she couldn't reconcile the good God she knew as a child with the abusive theology that her family full of ministers tried to instill in her as a teen. I don't know how God will judge ethical people who reject hypocrisy but I can't imagine that it will be more harshly than those who are pretending to serve God while actually abusing people.

 

Yes and no to the red herring thing.  Yes, people have a variety of positive and negative experiences.  But no, it isn't indifferent what the basic beliefs of a culture are.  This idea that suicide is just a matter of mental illness - that isn't born out across cultures.  There have been various cultures for example where suicide was considered an appropriate response to certain situations, like rape, or being defeated in a military engagement, being dishonoured.  In the west, we've seen a significant change in attitude to the idea of suicide for the terminally ill, or those suffering ongoing illness, even ongoing mental illness.

These reflect the beliefs of the culture as a whole about what makes a good life, what it means to be human.  If those beliefs change in the culture, how people conceptualize their position will change.  It's not strange that as the Roman empire was Christianized, people began to think differently about suicide, and not just because they were told they had to, but because their view of what was valuable changed.

We've had a general cultural change around how we value life - so maybe not surprising that this would also be affected.

[ktgrok]

In cases of severe mental illness, I don't think religion is going to do anything. Depression lies. If it can lie and tell you your family will be happy without you it can lie and tell you God wants you to die. 

But, in cases that are more situational rather than chronic mental illness, I do see how SOME religious beliefs could be protective, specifically the idea that all human life is sacred and you do not have the authority to take human life, even your own. That God doesn't make crap, and they are made in the image of God. Also, the idea that suffering has value, and is NOT a sign of sin or lack of worth but something that connects you to the martyrs and to Christ himself. Obviously, not all religions, and I think probably fewer now than in the past, will hold those views. 

Today, my kids went to VBS and the theme this week was that God Rescues You, that no matter how bad things are, or how sad or lonely you are, God is there with you. That no matter how much you mess up, he loves you. I'm not naive enough to think that VBS, or religion in general, can vaccinate my kids against depression or suicide. But I do hope that that message of hope seeps deep down into their souls and maybe offers some bit of hope when they are at their lowest. But more than that, I also hope that they come to see the Church as a second home, a second family, a place of refuge in time of need. I tell all of my children, even the agnostic, that no matter where in the world they are, if they need help they can go to a Priest, go to the Church, and they will be helped. That if they have something they can't talk to me about, they can talk to a priest about it. That someday, when I'm gone and they need a place that feels familiar, that feels like home, they will have the Mass to return to. 

But that's only one, small thing. 

We do teach self care in our house, as a life skill. Having a teen with Aspergers had made me VERY aware of suicide. He has had issues with depression, and has a genetic link to depression. His father, paternal grandmother, paternal great grandfather, great uncle, etc all have mental health issues. We talk about it frankly. We talk about home care/self care, and we talk about how sometimes more is needed and medication is a good thing if needed. With the littles I keep it simpler, but we talk about making sure our souls and mind are cared for just like our bodies. We try to inoculate them with the good, true, beautiful and to let them know they are valued, important, needed. 

I do this as much as possible with my DH, whom I also worry about. 

It's a scary topic for me. I wish I knew what more to do. 

[sassenach]

Netherlands data: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0ahUKEwjR_9308sTbAhWRxZ8KHdW4DQsQFgh4MAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.consciencelaws.org%2Farchive%2FStatistics%2Fnetherlands-euthanasia.xlsx&usg=AOvVaw3H_9oN7yEhkwHc8lJGCWzH

[ktgrok]

29 minutes ago, SporkUK said:

 I mean, the end result of being damned would be the same either way, would it matter now or later when it's eternal either way?  I think there are elements of faith or religious community which some can find helpful, but just as many elements that harm, likely quite a few where it would depend on the person. 

I'm not sure if this is just me or because of how I was raised, I know I strongly crave an external ethical system with which to hold my self accountable against, and whenever I find one to cling to I may get the high of achievement for a while, but my mental health nosedives. It's the absolute worst way for me to channel my traits.

I've seen this some in Catholicism, I think, expressed in scrupulosity. (I think I spelled that right). Where someone becomes almost OCD about their possible sins and short comings, obsessively cataloging them or repenting of them, etc. It's seen as a very real thing to guard against in the church, but not everyone is educated about it. I'm so sorry you have struggled with that. 

It reminds me of a saying I heard once about how we hide our shortcomings/sins/whatever in virtue. That virtues taken to an extreme become the opposite. It sounds like for you religion was a trigger for that. I'm sorry it was, but agree totally that if it is an unhealthy place for you it is good you are no longer there. 

This is yet one more reminder to me, also, to be sure to always stress to my kids that God loves them no matter what, there is nothing they can do to cause him to stop loving them, etc. But I am way more on the "universal salvation" side than a lot of Christians. Hopefully that helps. We don't talk about salvation really at all...in the sense we do not talk about saving our souls, or damnation, or whatever. That's not what religion is about for us. It's about a safe place, God's love, hope, a system to help us grow as people, etc. I like to think that will be good for them, or at least not damage them the way I know so many have been damaged by religion. My husband is related to people who use religion as a weapon, and is not religious himself, so I'm hoping he acts as a balance, keeping an eye out for things I might not see in that regard. 

Hugs. 

[ktgrok]

35 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

 

One thing that struck me in your post was that the smoking went with socializing activities.  Maybe it wasn't the smoking itself, but the breaks from stress and interaction with others as well.  

Yup. It was a valid excuse to go and take a break. Now, there is no excuse, so no break. 

[Bluegoat]

28 minutes ago, Frances said:

But even on this board when physician assisted suicide has been discussed, Christians have been among those saying they would use it under certain circumstances. And I also know Christians IRL who feel the same. And having been raised Catholic, the stigma there against suicide certainly seems to have lessened.

 

Christians are affected like everyone by what happens in the larger culture, often more so than by their religion.  Catholicism has changed to see suicide as something that is often the result of illness, rather than a real choice, and tends not to make an assumption that it was one or the other.  But as far as it goes, in terms of ontology, their view of the human person is the same.

 

 

[ktgrok]

For whomever mentioned it, yes, the Catholic church has taken a softer stance on suicide in the sense that committing a mortal sin requires full knowledge and consent, and that mental illness can render one incapable of that. 

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

I actually wish adults could call for mental health breaks.  I do it with my kids to regain my chill.  I think needing to be ‘on’ all the time isn’t healthy at all.

Agreed. I think this is a HUGE HUGE part of the problem. So many workers are never totally off the clock. So many parents have no help so never get a break. And then there is the lack of sleep as well. 

No balance. None. Rest = laziness in our culture. And we've trained our kids in that by shuffling them to a million extracurricular activities. It's not healthy, and it needs to change. 

[Mergath]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

Religion as a weapon.  Cute.  As for Sweden, that change seems to be one if reporting differences.  And interestingly it seems that euthanasia/assisted suicide isn’t counted in that mortality count, if I’m reading it correctly.  There would be a skew right there.  Can you find a statistic that combines the two in someplace like the Netherlands or Belgium? 

 

But... why would they include euthanasia? The point of tracking the number of suicides is to find trends in order to ultimately reduce the number. But a bipolar person taking their own life in the midst of a depressive episode is a completely different thing than, say, a person with advanced ALS utilizing euthanasia to avoid having to suffer through the end stages of the disease. If you're trying to find correlations between suicide as the result of mental illness and whatever might be causing an increase, including cases of euthanasia would mess up the data.

[Bluegoat]

One of the things I think of with relation to the depression element is what we know about postpartum depression.  It's possible to almost totally eliminate it, by making sure new mothers are in a really high knit community with a lot of support.  Communities like that just don't have the same kind of problems.  What that suggests it that it's really about the external factors even if it ends up manifesting internally.  It's not a thing that just happens inevitably.

Our communities aren't like that though, and no one is doing much to make them more like that.  In fact the effort has been to making them larger, more transient, make people less settled take the away from family.  And even in places where the state or community has taken steps to make up for some of those things, it only works to a certain extent.

[Bluegoat]

Just now, Mergath said:

 

But... why would they include euthanasia? The point of tracking the number of suicides is to find trends in order to ultimately reduce the number. But a bipolar person taking their own life in the midst of a depressive episode is a completely different thing than, say, a person with advanced ALS utilizing euthanasia to avoid having to suffer through the end stages of the disease. If you're trying to find correlations between suicide as the result of mental illness and whatever might be causing an increase, including cases of euthanasia would mess up the data.

 

No one said that all suicide had to be caused by mental illness.

[maize]

Re: increased risk of successful suicide in gun owning households:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/the-link-between-suicide-and-guns

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Bluegoat said:

One of the things I think of with relation to the depression element is what we know about postpartum depression.  It's possible to almost totally eliminate it, by making sure new mothers are in a really high knit community with a lot of support.  Communities like that just don't have the same kind of problems.  What that suggests it that it's really about the external factors even if it ends up manifesting internally.  It's not a thing that just happens inevitably.

Our communities aren't like that though, and no one is doing much to make them more like that.  In fact the effort has been to making them larger, more transient, make people less settled take the away from family.  And even in places where the state or community has taken steps to make up for some of those things, it only works to a certain extent.

I’m not sure this is completely true in the US. People are actually less likely to move away from family and communities now. It’s actually been studied quite a bit, in relation to why people aren’t willing to move to where the jobs are. Now that doesn’t mean everyone lives near family, we certainly don’t. But we moved away almost 30 years ago,so during a time when people were more transient, especially those with more education.

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I’m not sure this is completely true in the US. People are actually less likely to move away from family and communities now. It’s actually been studied quite a bit, in relation to why people aren’t willing to move to where the jobs are. Now that doesn’t mean everyone lives near family, we certainly don’t. But we moved away almost 30 years ago,so during a time when people were more transient, especially those with more education.

 

I think even most of our more settled conventional communities are still not that supportive.  The ones I am thing of WRT postpartum depression were not really conventional communities.  I'd say this is a longer standing issue than recent changes though.  

Really, as far as the 1999 thing, I am thinking social media.  Though that would maybe be more about younger people and I don't know if the stats support that.

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m not sure this is completely true in the US. People are actually less likely to move away from family and communities now. It’s actually been studied quite a bit, in relation to why people aren’t willing to move to where the jobs are. Now that doesn’t mean everyone lives near family, we certainly don’t. But we moved away almost 30 years ago,so during a time when people were more transient, especially those with more education.

But that does mean your kids are growing up without grandparents/extended family nearby. So even if you don't move again, that is still less support network.

[Bluegoat]

4 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I know the stats.  The question is why. And why, when guns have been present for years, it’s upticking now.  Have they isolated whether suicide attempts are higher in gun owning households and not just success?  I don’t recall seeing that.

 

Yeah, as far as I know, there aren't actually more household with guns, so it's probably not related to the increase.

I'd expect to see more attempts though.  Knowing you can just shoot yourself with some good chance of success might make you more likely to go ahead and try.

[Mergath]

9 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

No one said that all suicide had to be caused by mental illness.

I never said that it is. But trying to reduce suicide caused by mental illness is going to require a completely different approach than reducing suicides of people with advanced degenerative diseases. So lumping the data together doesn't make any sense.

[Mergath]

Just now, Arctic Mama said:

It does if you’re looking at suicides on the whole.  Permissibility of suicide should affect frequency, and it seems to.

 

Permissibility of suicide? 

[Katy]

ehhh... I'm not sure lumping the stats together does help.  For one thing, suicide as an answer to terminal illness always existed, there's simply less stigma about it now, and in some areas there is physican help rather than a bit too much narcotic pain medicine.

 

[Tsuga]

5 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Chilling and sickening.  Oh I pray it was not I who said that! 

 

Eh. It was less personal and more "oh my gosh there are people who think that's a normal thing to say" that affected me.

One thing I have seen is that the hippie values with which I was raised--"We are all in this together," "We're one big family," "We're all brothers and sisters in Christ/God/Maya/The Universe" are not American values. The Internet has taught me a lot about sub-cultures in the US and frankly, some of them I think are really appalling on a visceral level. I don't want to label them as I realize that there are good people everywhere. But I think whoever said it, it just rolled off the tongue because that's their culture.

Of course you wouldn't house a homeless person--they aren't your family. Of course you wouldn't pay for someone else's college--they aren't your family. Of course you wouldn't regularly spend your food budgets on others--they aren't your family. Of course you object to higher taxes to help the poor--I mean it's sad and all but they aren't your family.

I come from a much more collective culture. You prioritize family but you just don't talk like that. Not to people in need. You feed your kids first, but you put in a lot for the group. Even if you couldn't help you would try to do something. I see people do it every day.

On another note: I agree with those who say this isn't a religion vs. no religion discussion. Suicide when religion was more common was much more covered up due to shame and a sense of tainting the family. Thankfully I think many religious communities are much more accepting nowadays of the realities of mental illness and that's wonderful. But I wouldn't count on statistics to prove some point about religion, positive or negative. We don't have data of that depth.

[maize]

Just now, Mergath said:

 

Permissibility of suicide? 

 

It is plausible that when a society condones and even assists suicide in some situations it may come to be viewed as a more legitimate and acceptable "solution" in other situations.

[Tanaqui]

8 hours ago, Bambam said:

I think it is because people have no hope. If you don't believe in God or any eternal being, and things are bad, then what is the reason to not? 

http://www.omaha.com/news/nation/suicide-now-the-th-leading-cause-of-death-in-us/article_7b5f1b59-76fa-5fdf-a08e-b14bccc2749c.html

 

This is both stupid and offensive. I might as well say it's because people think there's a happy-clappy afterlife ahead of them, and if things are bad, why not fast forward to the end? But I wouldn't say that because then I'd sound completely ignorant.

Quote

But can you really argue how much easier it is to become unmoored when you’re your own compass and standard? When you’re the one who decides your life and death and there aren’t no consequences or results beyond this world?

 

This is also ignorant and offensive. My life is valuable precisely BECAUSE I only have one shot at it and BECAUSE it affects other people in this world. My choices matter BECAUSE I know there is nobody pulling strings behind the curtain making up purposes for me.

Quote

The bolded is what I've been trying to convey. If you've never questioned or are still a confident believer it's hard to understand. And our moral compass isn't a "do whatever feels good" nor is it difficult to find a moral compass without a deity. 

 

Exactly. Anybody who claims otherwise needs to get out more, and start reading things about atheism that aren't written by and for Christians.

[Tanaqui]

6 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Suicide for all sorts of reasons has always existed, but is it becoming more common because the stigma is lessening?  

 

Or it hasn't increased all that much, we're just talking about it more for the same reason.

If suicide isn't a reason to refuse to bury somebody consecrated ground, if suicide doesn't get your property confiscated so your heirs suffer, if suicide in the family doesn't keep you from getting a job or getting married - then why not talk about it?

[Katy]

8 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Except we are talking about a statistical increase in the rates in the last two two decades.  I do think we are talking about it more, but arguably that isn’t a good thing, depending on how it is done.  Awareness is good, social contagion not so much.  It’s hard to find a balance.

 

The biggest thing that changed since I've been an adult is the acknowledgement that mental illness is a chemical issue rather than a moral one. Major churches used to refuse church funerals for suicides, but they stopped that in the last 25 years. I remember being about 16 and having a pastor discuss that they would be having a funeral for a suicide victim the next week.  Not someone I knew, but the pastor went on at length about what a sea change it was for the denomination to allow funerals for suicide victims.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Nobody is pulling any eternal strings, that’s not an accurate reflection of the Christian perspective. And I’m saying that as a monergist, the synergistic would REALLY  disagree with you.

 

Gosh, it isn't? I wonder how that feels, when people blithely misrepresent your views for no good reason. Must be really annoying.

[Frances]

32 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

But that does mean your kids are growing up without grandparents/extended family nearby. So even if you don't move again, that is still less support network.

Yes, it’s  true my son didn’t have that, although every summer starting when he was eight we sent him to spend several weeks with extended family. But research shows that this trend of moving away from family and communities, even for better job prospects, has significantly decreased in the US compared even to times when travel was much more difficult, and we didn’t have ways to constantly communicate. I think it’s  an interesting trend. The NY Times recently had an article about it and it comes up frequently in economic articles I read for work.

[Frances]

46 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

It’s not different, thouth.  It’s someone ending their life, just with a different cause.  But even the suicides in places without euthanasia don’t all have the same cause.  Suffering emotionally or suffering from life circumstances or suffering from an illness that results in suicide are all still resulting in suicide.

It’s different though if you’re searching for answers as to why suicide rates are increasing or decreasing. In the case of doctor assisted suicide, it is generally known exactly why someone is committing suicide. As more countries that allow this have more of an elderly population, it doesn’t seem at all surprising that rates might increase. Also, with all of the advances in medicine, previously people may have naturally died much sooner, even of other causes, and not ever gotten to the point of choosing euthanasia.

[Bluegoat]

31 minutes ago, Mergath said:

I never said that it is. But trying to reduce suicide caused by mental illness is going to require a completely different approach than reducing suicides of people with advanced degenerative diseases. So lumping the data together doesn't make any sense.

 

Probably it will to some extent.  But they aren't necessarily unrelated, totally separate things.

Those who support assisted suicide tend to present it as a rational, chosen thing.  But not that long ago a heck of a lot of people would have said, no, that's a manifestation of despair or spiritual sickness, and those people need healing and protection.  

 

 

[Bluegoat]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yep. Me too. Secular buddhist thought has pulled me through many a time. Better than CBT, I reckon, for me.

 

It's a set of teachings about meaning though, even ontology, and even when really secularized it's practices come out of that.  I'd to really want to compare the effect of adoption of empiricism/logical positivism, or even postmodernism - or worse, all those things mashed up together - on a population.  

[madteaparty]

9 hours ago, Bambam said:

I think it is because people have no hope. If you don't believe in God or any eternal being, and things are bad, then what is the reason to not? 

http://www.omaha.com/news/nation/suicide-now-the-th-leading-cause-of-death-in-us/article_7b5f1b59-76fa-5fdf-a08e-b14bccc2749c.html

 On the other hand, witnessing religious fervor of all sorts makes me want to off self too.

 

[SporkUK]

I appreciate the thought Ktgrok, though I have PTSD, not OCD, and my behaviour was in line with my paternal family's church teachings. The whole God only does or allows horrible things to test you to make you a stronger person or to break you because you have not fully, properly, truly repented and turned from sin. While I have a compulsive personality, my prayers weren't due to that but to that being specifically how I was taught to...I want to say cope with having a painful life, but really prayer was treated as the solution to everything so doing so for years and getting no where, it's quite upsetting particularly for a kid who doesn't have the life experience or words or any other resources to deal with the situation so leans more heavily on what little is available. Prayer is kinda all I had then, prayer and the therapy I got at school. One of those, I still use the techniques I learned there years on; the other I think I've spent enough of my life on. 

I think, even with a malfunctioning brain, ontology can matter. I can't really remember not having a broken mind, but the way in which I view the world and my place in it has drastically affected a lot about my suicidal ideation. I may have to outsource my sanity checking to others more than some others (though I think doing so helps most people and I think a part of why there is such strong evidence for the power of connections and communities) but I still have to line up my thoughts and the words of others against my worldview. However, I do not think that a religious eternity-focused mindset is automatically better or prevents suicide over a temporal one focused on the life in front of you. I think it is more complicated and either one can be a help or a hurt.  The pressure of eternity and/or of a God can be an awful burden. 

Also, it should be noted the increase is not universal. The UK has seen a decline in the suicide numbers over the last few years. The Samaritans have a lot of reports on their work in this area. It's still a big issue, particularly among men of certain ages and men soon after divorce, but progress appears to be being made.

[chiguirre]

10 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

Those who support assisted suicide tend to present it as a rational, chosen thing.  But not that long ago a heck of a lot of people would have said, no, that's a manifestation of despair or spiritual sickness, and those people need healing and protection.  

 

 

The whole point of assisted suicide is that we can't give these people healing and we're not super good at protecting them from pain and the mental anguish of a wasting, lingering death. Before they would have stockpiled pills (forgoing pain management) so that they could DIY. And it would have been counted an "accidental overdose" not a suicide. That's why the statistics get so murky.

[Bluegoat]

12 minutes ago, Frances said:

It’s different though if you’re searching for answers as to why suicide rates are increasing or decreasing. In the case of doctor assisted suicide, it is generally known exactly why someone is committing suicide. As more countries that allow this have more of an elderly population, it doesn’t seem at all surprising that rates might increase. Also, with all of the advances in medicine, previously people may have naturally died much sooner, even of other causes, and not ever gotten to the point of choosing euthanasia.

 

I think the issue is - why do people now think suicide should be legal in some cases?  What has changed about their view of life?  

A lot of people have suggested that this comes down to a veery different view of what it means to live a good life, a different view of suffering, and a different view of human life.  There has been a fair bt written on this topic in different areas of study, so it's not just some crazy religious person idea.

If it were true that these things have changed significantly enough that something that was not only illegal but a major social taboo is now accepted, it is going to have other effects on society as well.  One effect could be that people in other situations also think about suffering differently, for example, someone who is depressed, or who has been made a target or social exclusion.  What would have seemed an extreme solution where it was taboo now is arguably quite a natural choice, at least in your own mind.

[Bluegoat]

6 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

The whole point of assisted suicide is that we can't give these people healing and we're not super good at protecting them from pain and the mental anguish of a wasting, lingering death. Before they would have stockpiled pills (forgoing pain management) so that they could DIY. And it would have been counted an "accidental overdose" not a suicide. That's why the statistics get so murky.

 

Yes, that's the argument.  My point is that you are making it, like many others do now, as opposed to 50 or 100 years ago when many people would not have seen it that way.  There has been a shift in the way people understand this.  Shifts like that generally aren't contained in the way people think - there are almost always wider implications.  

Legal suicide isn't only about people facing a wasting or lingering death, either.

[chiguirre]

4 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think the issue is - why do people now think suicide should be legal in some cases?  What has changed about their view of life?  

A lot of people have suggested that this comes down to a veery different view of what it means to live a good life, a different view of suffering, and a different view of human life.  There has been a fair bt written on this topic in different areas of study, so it's not just some crazy religious person idea.

If it were true that these things have changed significantly enough that something that was not only illegal but a major social taboo is now accepted, it is going to have other effects on society as well.  One effect could be that people in other situations also think about suffering differently, for example, someone who is depressed, or who has been made a target or social exclusion.  What would have seemed an extreme solution where it was taboo now is arguably quite a natural choice, at least in your own mind.

I think it has its roots in veterinary euthanasia. It would be considered unspeakably cruel to allow a dog or cat to suffer through terminal cancer and, yet, it's okay for grandma. Yes, hopefully we can provide better palliative care to grandma but it's still a miserable process.

[Bluegoat]

8 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

It's a long way from postmodernism, that's for sure.

I'd dispute that atheists, though, have higher rates of suicidality. Until someone found me some nice stats, anyway. Thinking of the characteristics of atheists, I can think of a few that might mitigate risk, actually. 

 

I don't know that they do.  I think it's a question of social values, more than individual ones.

[ktgrok]

35 minutes ago, Frances said:

 

16 minutes ago, SporkUK said:

I appreciate the thought Ktgrok, though I have PTSD, not OCD, and my behaviour was in line with my paternal family's church teachings. The whole God only does or allows horrible things to test you to make you a stronger person or to break you because you have not fully, properly, truly repented and turned from sin.

However, I do not think that a religious eternity-focused mindset is automatically better or prevents suicide over a temporal one focused on the life in front of you. I think it is more complicated and either one can be a help or a hurt.  The pressure of eternity and/or of a God can be an awful burden. 

Also, it should be noted the increase is not universal. The UK has seen a decline in the suicide numbers over the last few years. The Samaritans have a lot of reports on their work in this area. It's still a big issue, particularly among men of certain ages and men soon after divorce, but progress appears to be being made.

Ugh, I'm sorry. That's a terrible thing to be told. And I agree, that religion can hurt or help, depending both on the teachings and on the personality of the person. 

[ktgrok]

And...I just saw someone post on facebook that they think chronic, intractable depression is a legitimate reason for euthanasia, because it's like terminal cancer. 

[Bluegoat]

2 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I think it has its roots in veterinary euthanasia. It would be considered unspeakably cruel to allow a dog or cat to suffer through terminal cancer and, yet, it's okay for grandma. Yes, hopefully we can provide better palliative care to grandma but it's still a miserable process.

 

I think a lot of people make that comparison, for sure.  

But I think here is where I'd say an overall Christian society made a difference - people did not used to make that connection in the same way.  People may not have sought out veterinary care, but they did put down a suffering animal - they'd not likely have put down grandma, much less someone suffering from a non-fatal chronic illness, be it physical or mental.  In more secular societies, that seems a natural connection to make.

What I think that suggests is that they saw a really significant difference between the suffering of an animal, and that of a person.  Why?  What does it say about what you think about human lie and purpose to think that way?  What does it say if you think about them as being similar?  

[Bluegoat]

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And...I just saw someone post on facebook that they think chronic, intractable depression is a legitimate reason for euthanasia, because it's like terminal cancer. 

 

Well, that has become a rights issue in some places where legal suicide is allowed - people trying to advocate for access to legal suicide  because they are suffering from chronic depression have said that themselves.  In much the same way, laws restricting it to those who are dying have been overturned.  The question of whether it's inhumane to deny it to people who can't legally consent is a real possibility in terms of advocacy efforts.

When it's turned around like that, people find it a sympathetic and compelling argument.

[Targhee]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

 

Well, yes. Quite easily.  And I say that as someone who used to believe but now considers herself agnostic (although by no stretch of the imagination does my perception of God--if he/she/it exists--resemble much at all of what most Christians believe).

I suppose it is difficult to understand if you've never not believed, or at least not had strong doubts.

You might find answers to some of your questions in the Dalai Lama's writings. This would be a good place to start.

I don’t think the belief in God is the linchpin, but I’d like to ask you this: do you believe having a framework of belief/moral conduct/philosophy that is *external* of self is an important factor? I don’t mean a fear of committing sin/unloved by God, or a prescribed ritual, but a belief that certain acts or behaviors are more desireable because they lead to a better outcome. And that we look to outside sources (scripture, the life of an esteemed example, a contemporary mentor, a model in nature, etc) to help direct us towards that more desirable outcome.

Are these beliefs, in whatever form they take (theistic, nontheistic, non-religious, scientific, etc) stabilizing forces for ones mental health because they give life purpose and meaning, and often direction?

Would messages, intended this way or not, of absolute relativism where only the individual can determine what is truth/reality/right/good/the-point-of-it-all be so overwhelming for some as to contribute to their feelings of pointlessness?

These are sincere questions. They follow a line of what I am thinking, but I don’t know and am eager to hear others thoughts.

[chiguirre]

2 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think a lot of people make that comparison, for sure.  

But I think here is where I'd say an overall Christian society made a difference - people did not used to make that connection in the same way.  People may not have sought out veterinary care, but they did put down a suffering animal - they'd not likely have put down grandma, much less someone suffering from a non-fatal chronic illness, be it physical or mental.  In more secular societies, that seems a natural connection to make.

What I think that suggests is that they saw a really significant difference between the suffering of an animal, and that of a person.  Why?  What does it say about what you think about human lie and purpose to think that way?  What does it say if you think about them as being similar?  

I think this is a trolley style problem (people will throw the trolley track switch to save 5 people by killing 1 but won't push someone on the tracks to save the 5 people). You wouldn't be willing to shoot grandma even if she's begging you to but you would be willing to do something less directly violent to help her die.

I think our understanding of the cognitive capabilities of other species has grown by leaps and bounds over the last 50 years. No one had taught chimps or gorillas sign language or even observed their interactions in the wild over the course of years. Now we know we're on more of a continuum of cognition instead of being unique creatures separate and apart from all other animals.

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, chiguirre said:

I think this is a trolley style problem (people will throw the trolley track switch to save 5 people by killing 1 but won't push someone on the tracks to save the 5 people). You wouldn't be willing to shoot grandma even if she's begging you to but you would be willing to do something less directly violent to help her die.

I think our understanding of the cognitive capabilities of other species has grown by leaps and bounds over the last 50 years. No one had taught chimps or gorillas sign language or even observed their interactions in the wild over the course of years. Now we know we're on more of a continuum of cognition instead of being unique creatures separate and apart from all other animals.

 

I don't think you are wrong, but the worldviews involved have also changed significantly.  I'm not sure why people think that isn't a factor, TBH, it seems like kind of a no-brainer to me that changes in worldview affect what people do.

[maize]

40 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

 On the other hand, witnessing religious fervor of all sorts makes me want to off self too.

 

 

This post is coming across as flippant to me.

Are you serious--you become actually suicidal when witnessing religious fervor? If so I hope you seek help.

If not I think this comment is in poor taste and highly inappropriate. Suicide is not a joking matter.

[chiguirre]

Just now, Bluegoat said:

 

I don't think you are wrong, but the worldviews involved have also changed significantly.  I'm not sure why people think that isn't a factor, TBH, it seems like kind of a no-brainer to me that changes in worldview affect what people do.

Sure, but you seem to see the changes as negative. I see the changes as positive. We're much better off now than we were even 50 years ago, in my opinion.

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, chiguirre said:

Sure, but you seem to see the changes as negative. I see the changes as positive. We're much better off now than we were even 50 years ago, in my opinion.

 

I do see some as negative.  We've taken a utilitarian view of the value of life further and further.  We've become much more atomized in our view of people and society.  We've reduced our concept of health.  We have very little of use to say about suffering, and almost nothing about ontological value.  

[chiguirre]

3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 We have very little of use to say about suffering, and almost nothing about ontological value.  

Why do you think suffering has ontological value?

[chiguirre]

3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Not her, but if suffering isn’t just meaningless pain but has a purpose and an end and is considered part of a normative human experience, that is world’s apart from a view that holds suffering as meaningless evil to be escaped or avoided at any cost.

 

And that divide will have drastically different manifestations in the choices if the individuals involved. 

Why do you consider unbearable suffering part of a normative human experience? Why normative? Some people die instantly and we don't consider their lives less human because they had an aneurysm or got hit by a bus?

[Frances]

29 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think a lot of people make that comparison, for sure.  

But I think here is where I'd say an overall Christian society made a difference - people did not used to make that connection in the same way.  People may not have sought out veterinary care, but they did put down a suffering animal - they'd not likely have put down grandma, much less someone suffering from a non-fatal chronic illness, be it physical or mental.  In more secular societies, that seems a natural connection to make.

What I think that suggests is that they saw a really significant difference between the suffering of an animal, and that of a person.  Why?  What does it say about what you think about human lie and purpose to think that way?  What does it say if you think about them as being similar?  

But people didn’t live nearly as long or have nearly as much medical intervention either. While religion versus securalism may be an influence, I also think longer life spans, medical advances, and more elderly people also play a role. Feeding tubes are a prime example. Previously, many people would have died without them. Now they can and are used for many,many years.

I think in many cases medical advances have made the questions around human suffering and end of life much more complicated.