Article: “Why Sexual Abuse Goes Unnoticed� (some CC)

[JumpyTheFrog]

I thought this blog post from the son of a convicted pedophile was interesting.

 

http://jimmyhinton.org/why-sexual-abuse-goes-unnoticed/

Edited February 7, 2018 by HoppyTheToad

[Katy]

Your link didn't get saved.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Ok, I added the link.

[EMS83]

I'm glad, but now I'm squeamish.  How do we stay aware and observant without being paranoid?

[scrapbookbuzz]

Eye-opening. Thanks for sharing. I know too many people who were sexually abused.

Hoping more people become aware of the true signs of it and not dismiss it.

[LMD]

Interesting, thanks for posting.

 

It helped actually, a few minutes after I read this, my friend rang to tell me that one of her abusers was outed in a newspaper article and we discussed how people (her own mother included) ignored signs and only saw what they had been groomed to see...

[Joules]

Interesting, thanks for posting.

 

It helped actually, a few minutes after I read this, my friend rang to tell me that one of her abusers was outed in a newspaper article and we discussed how people (her own mother included) ignored signs and only saw what they had been groomed to see...

This is an interesting way to put it. So much focus is on how predators groom the children, but we need to be mindful that they are grooming the caregivers also. The real difficulty is seeing the difference between people who are genuinely nice and those that are grooming. Except for listening to their kids, what could the parents have seen in Nassar that distinguished his “nice†behavior as deceptive instead of real?

[LMD]

This is an interesting way to put it. So much focus is on how predators groom the children, but we need to be mindful that they are grooming the caregivers also. The real difficulty is seeing the difference between people who are genuinely nice and those that are grooming. Except for listening to their kids, what could the parents have seen in Nassar that distinguished his “nice†behavior as deceptive instead of real?

They groom everyone. Carefully, so that they are fore armed in case of an accusation.

As an example that my friend and I talked about today - one of her abusers put the idea in her family's head that she was just a cold, unloving, unaffectionate person by nature. So when she was cold and unloving towards her abuser, as a preschooler, it was 'just her personality'

This adds to the internalised shame that there's something wrong with the victim.

 

Yes, my friend is freaking amazing.

[Carrie12345]

That was deeply, deeply disturbing.  (Though obviously important.)

 

I certainly don't have any prevention answers but, for a long time now, I've made the conscious decision to always believe children's feelings.  Even when something seems like nonsense, there's an underlying reason for that child's feelings *somewhere.  And maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with whatever is going on in the moment.  Maybe it's a delayed or displaced or triggered feeling.  Maybe it's nothing as nefarious as abuse and is something as simple as perfectly normal discomfort over routine childhood things like losing a favorite toy, worrying about a pet, or just not getting enough sleep the night before. But I can't think of a single time that a child has told me they were feeling a negative emotion when it wasn't TRUE.

[SparklyUnicorn]

That was hard to read.  I had a doctor who forked around in my private areas WAY too much.  I'll spare you the details.  He did this for years right in front of my mother.  It got to the point where I'd cry any time she announced she was taking me to the doctor's for something.  He would insist I needed an examination of my private areas no matter what she brought me there for.  So finally I begged her not to let him touch me there.  She said she would tell him no.  So she did and he became very angry and combative.  She found me a new doctor.  I don't know how she could not have known he was being inappropriate, but I guess he was that good at making it seem routine/normal.  He treated her like she was just stupid when she called him out on it.  Years later my mother read that he had been accused by others and lost his license.  I don't know the details beyond that.  At the time he was older so he's probably been dead for many years.

[PrincessMommy]

This is an excellent article.  I've shared it with my priest's wife and told her I think we should share it with Father and several others in leadership.  

 

As someone who has been abused, this was hard to read on so many levels

[PrincessMommy]

Sparkly -  So glad your mom finally stepped in.

 

 

It reminded me of an experience I had with one of my children and the drs.   My 2nd child about about 18months, maybe less. We went for a well-baby check up and I had gotten the older dr. in the practice who had started it way back when  (It was a large practice).

 

Baby check up seems to go fine until...son is totally undressed with no-diaper and dr. lifts him up and gives him a raspberry on on his belly...  :huh:   My son (who was already attached at the hip at that point) was having none of it. My mind was screaming "Danger Will Robinson!!"   

 

I vowed never to go back to him again.  About a year later he retired from the practice.  I've never heard anything since.

[DesertBlossom]

My DD's first endocrinologist was a creeper. At our first visit the rooms were really hot and the doctor kept talking about how it was so hot we should be naked... and the nurses should be naked and.... and I just awkwardly chuckled. Shortly after I met another mom whose teenage daughter went to him and said that he had started saying inappropriate things at their visits. Her brother had been at one appointment with him and he finally blurted "Hey, that's my sister you're talking to." They switched practices and we moved.

[PrincessMommy]

I've had some really uncomfortable experiences with some medical professionals, but they never crossed the line into physically abusing. There was the pediatrician of my two sons, as one example. Highly regarded as the best pediatrician in our area. He would let ds sit on my lap while he examined his ears, while getting uncomfortably too close to me. It happened once. I was a young mother in there alone with the doctor and my son. I just sort of dismissed it in my mind. At a scout meeting, I over heard another mom tell of similar experiences with the same doctor. I gasped, me too! We found another pediatrician after that. There was a similar thing with an eye doctor father/son practice. i had an "uncomfortable" moment with the son, but the father was later found to have had molested a few patients. The son later moved his practice to another city. Then, during chiropractic treatment, another one. Just a bit more daring, but still something where, if he had been reported, he could have gotten away with saying it was part of normal treatment. Very subtle, but I had grown older and wiser.

 

The pastor at our church has also gotten away with saying things to me he shouldn't, but these things were only verbal and nothing he said or did was sexual. He is so well-loved by our church, but some things he has said to me have upset me, and even my husband couldn't see it for what it is. He has said demeaning things to me, and then later always says he's joking. He once said a demeaning thing to me when we were passing by each other in the parking lot. No one else was in the parking lot as we passed. I actually did later confront him about this one, and he denied it by saying he didn't remember having said that to me. The thought has gone through my mind that, if I were to go to the right people in our church and explain this, the pastor would quickly and effectively talk his way out of it, and make me look like I was making something out of nothing. He is so beloved at our church, that if it came down to it, it really makes me wonder what level of support would a woman would  get from our congregation if something like this were reported in a very serious way. I had a little talk with him myself because I couldn't convince others that he wasn't just joking around and I didn't like how it made me feel. He has backed off ever since. Hell will freeze over before I would put up with that cr@p from him again. He was so subtle and slick about it. Sickening.

 

 

All of this, plus the fact that I've been very emotionally/physcially abused by my own mother, makes me wonder just how many sick people are walking around like this? It seems you can't trust anybody at all. It's just sickening that people who have been abused in any way have no voice, and it's so hard for them to get anyone to believe what they have gone through. There are so many enablers. God, I hope and pray that I would never do that to anyone.

 

And going forward, I will be much more aware when at the doctor. I think we should all have someone with us when we go. It seems this sickness is just everywhere.

 

And Sparkly, I am so sorry that happened to you. Truly, truly awful.

 

I agree with this statement so much.  It's more than just seeing something or feeling that something is off - it's getting someone to believe you.  Even if you're an adult it's hard.   Add to that the whole Christian dynamic of "loving your enemies". I think just makes it SO much harder.  

[DesertBlossom]

I wonder if some of the problem lies in us being taught not to gossip about others. If someone makes you uncomfortable, but you can't really articulate why other than that it seemed a little bit off, people aren't inclined (and rightfully so) to publicly declare the person to be a creeper or a pedophile. There needs to be more evidence than just a gut feeling.  We're more likely to remove ourselves from the situation (like the dr I mentioned in the PP) but if it became public that the person was actually a serial offender, we'd all come out and say we had suspected as much. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sparkly -  So glad your mom finally stepped in.

 

 

It reminded me of an experience I had with one of my children and the drs.   My 2nd child about about 18months, maybe less. We went for a well-baby check up and I had gotten the older dr. in the practice who had started it way back when  (It was a large practice).

 

Baby check up seems to go fine until...son is totally undressed with no-diaper and dr. lifts him up and gives him a raspberry on on his belly...  :huh:   My son (who was already attached at the hip at that point) was having none of it. My mind was screaming "Danger Will Robinson!!"   

 

I vowed never to go back to him again.  About a year later he retired from the practice.  I've never heard anything since.

 

Ugh yeah these situations are hard because he really might have meant nothing by it.  But it's just ewww don't do that.  Too weird. 

[LarlaB]

I was raised in a moderate Mennonite home (not super conservative) and attended a Mennonite elementary school. When in jr high, a male teacher took a special interest in me and had 'private meetings' with me in the supply room and principals office.  Just the two of us.  Over 10x.  I don't remember sexual contact, but by all normalized standards its was grossly inappropriate, beyond grooming and definitely messed me up.  It was a secret relationship, but seen by others as special treatment.

He was eventually fired. Yet, managed to make a scene his last day by interrupting class to come say goodbye to me.  Knelt down by my desk in the middle of class to say goodbye  It was just all so, well, yucky. Its a tribute to the healing power of Christ, some therapy and PTSD management that I can even talk about this so casually.  Like most victims, telling the story and integrating the memories are a significant part of healing and empowerment.   And learning how to wade thru forgiveness of others vs trusting yourself is a tricky tension.

 

I told my parents. To me, it was obvious to other teachers, students and staff as well.  If it was considered wrong by others, I certainly never picked up on that.  It translated to me that the need for 'peace' (whatever that means in its relative interpretation) of the group was greater than the need for justice/safety/defense of the individual.  Non-resistance, in my situation, meant allowing evil and harm to slowly create ruin from within the walls- given the position of authority that my abuser had, and the confines of the religious environment that was to embody redemption, forgiveness and restoration. Eventually he was turned out, but as PP said, not until several of us were affected. And then it was covered up and ignored.  

The pacifist environment of the Mennonite culture was oppressively harmful in this situation.  We were taught to forgive, turn the other cheek (aka look the other way) and to value peacefulness about all else.  It was all so incredibly passive, weak and empty- and frankly, still looks that way.  I'm sure to many, the Mennonite heritage a beautiful thing and a lovely expression of Christ.   The non-resistance aspect of the Mennonite/Anabaptist faith is based on the verses from NT "turn the other cheek" and certainly a part of the Christian faith but not meant to be the only banner we wave.  From my vantage point, God is also a God of justice, truth and standing up for the oppressed.  Making yourself a doormat to whomever comes along is NOT turning the other cheek. Its passivity that, IMHO, has a root of deception at its core- meek, too many times, equals weak.

It's tricky. This yuck that exists in more classic power structures is the most insidious kind.  We are all groomed to trust Doctors. Teachers. Coaches. Pastors. Youth leaders.  But sometimes, they are authoritative predators and counting on the fact that a child won't be listened too and that the adults involved will be too awed by power to properly defend the young. Its up to all of us, as adults today, to be on our guard and lookout like never before.  I'd rather run the risk of letting my child have the impression that their words/opinions matter more than they actually do, than to constantly silence him/her. 
 

ETA:  The point of this?   In some of these environments, the cover up is just as (if not more so) damaging as the crime.  The perpetrators get away with it because of the nature of trust involved in the environment in which it happens.  And then the damage to the victim is compounded because they are not believed/heard/protected etc. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by LarlaB

[TechWife]

I agree with this statement so much. It's more than just seeing something or feeling that something is off - it's getting someone to believe you. Even if you're an adult it's hard. Add to that the whole Christian dynamic of "loving your enemies". I think just makes it SO much harder.

I really appreciate what Rachael Denhollander said about forgiveness - forgiveness requires justice. In a similar vein, I think it’s accurate to also say that love requires justice.

[Entropymama]

My dd recently turned 16 and has just finished driver's ed. I was absolutely appalled that the driving portion of the class was to be her and a driving instructor, alone in a car, for two hours at a time. Going who knows where with someone I had never met. Even more disturbing was the fact that nobody else seemed bothered by it. Other parents simply shrugged and said that was how it had always been done, and when I called to ask if I could ride along with them, the employee acted like I was being ridiculous. We ended up getting a female driving instructor, which was better, but the whole thing was just bizarre. How, in our current culture and climate, could anyone think it was okay to put a 15 year old girl in that situation? And why am I being vilified for being uncomfortable about it? 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

My dd recently turned 16 and has just finished driver's ed. I was absolutely appalled that the driving portion of the class was to be her and a driving instructor, alone in a car, for two hours at a time. Going who knows where with someone I had never met. Even more disturbing was the fact that nobody else seemed bothered by it. Other parents simply shrugged and said that was how it had always been done, and when I called to ask if I could ride along with them, the employee acted like I was being ridiculous. We ended up getting a female driving instructor, which was better, but the whole thing was just bizarre. How, in our current culture and climate, could anyone think it was okay to put a 15 year old girl in that situation? And why am I being vilified for being uncomfortable about it? 

 

I've actually never heard of a third person being in a car during driving instruction.  Or seen it when I see student drivers around town - I think it must not be standard.

[Scarlett]

That was hard to read.  I had a doctor who forked around in my private areas WAY too much.  I'll spare you the details.  He did this for years right in front of my mother.  It got to the point where I'd cry any time she announced she was taking me to the doctor's for something.  He would insist I needed an examination of my private areas no matter what she brought me there for.  So finally I begged her not to let him touch me there.  She said she would tell him no.  So she did and he became very angry and combative.  She found me a new doctor.  I don't know how she could not have known he was being inappropriate, but I guess he was that good at making it seem routine/normal.  He treated her like she was just stupid when she called him out on it.  Years later my mother read that he had been accused by others and lost his license.  I don't know the details beyond that.  At the time he was older so he's probably been dead for many years.

 

 

Ugh.  That is horrifying!  I am so sorry.

[Garga]

Eye-opening. Thanks for sharing. I know too many people who were sexually abused.

Hoping more people become aware of the true signs of it and not dismiss it.

 

But what exactly are the true signs?  Maybe I missed it, but I think the point was that there are no true signs.  The people get bamboozled and don't know it.  What are the signs to look for?

 

This is an interesting way to put it. So much focus is on how predators groom the children, but we need to be mindful that they are grooming the caregivers also. The real difficulty is seeing the difference between people who are genuinely nice and those that are grooming. Except for listening to their kids, what could the parents have seen in Nassar that distinguished his “nice†behavior as deceptive instead of real?

 

Right--what could have been seen?  Obviously, they should have actually listened to the children and believed them, but were there actual signs?

 

They groom everyone. Carefully, so that they are fore armed in case of an accusation.

As an example that my friend and I talked about today - one of her abusers put the idea in her family's head that she was just a cold, unloving, unaffectionate person by nature. So when she was cold and unloving towards her abuser, as a preschooler, it was 'just her personality'

This adds to the internalised shame that there's something wrong with the victim.

 

Yes, my friend is freaking amazing.

 

That is so scary.  Wow.  

 

 It seems this sickness is just everywhere.

 

 

It does.  People just seem so bad and scary to me right now.  I'm working on not getting bitter about it.  

I've actually never heard of a third person being in a car during driving instruction.  Or seen it when I see student drivers around town - I think it must not be standard.

 

You're right that it's not standard, but that is a problem.  Someone driving off with teenagers for hours at a time?  Sounds like a situation that could be ripe for all sorts of bad things to happen.  

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Garga

[TechWife]

I've actually never heard of a third person being in a car during driving instruction.  Or seen it when I see student drivers around town - I think it must not be standard.

 

Our area does two students and one instructor. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I get the impression that predators come across as very charming and likeable. Does that mean people who don’t appear friendly are less likely to be predators?

 

With all the recent scandals, any thought I had of sending my oldest to gymnastics camp in the summer is gone. Now I am also squicked out that I think last summer the high school boys went to a camp in Michigan. I hope it wasn’t at MSU.

[Scarlett]

Here is the thing. I trust  no one. I mean I guess I do and did trust my parents, and if one of them had turned out to be a child molester I would be devastated.  But I worked very hard to never not leave my kid alone with anyone.  When he was little I left him with a friend of mine that had a little girl his age....not often.  Doctor appt, that kind of thing.  I didn't send him to sleepovers.  I had a couple of sleep overs at my house, but I very closely supervised even other kids.  

 

We live in a sick world and I just wanted to be able to look back and say I did everything I possibly could to protect him.  

[Bluegoat]

 

 

You're right that it's not standard, but that is a problem.  Someone driving off with teenagers for hours at a time?  Sounds like a situation that could be ripe for all sorts of bad things to happen.  

 

I don't know.  TBH I'm not sure that I think the never being alone with people thing is great, especially for young adults. In certain settings, maybe, but all? It kind of reminds me of only allowing girls out with chaperones and there are over-tones to that I am uncomfortable with.

[freesia]

Wow. That was disturbing.

 

I, too, would love to know "what" they do to distract.

[Pam in CT]

re innocent until proven guilty

 

You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. By the time these perpetrators are proven guilty, too much damage has been done. This is exactly how they work this to their advantage, it seems. It's sad that one person has no power. It seems to take a lot of people coming forward at once......

 

Predators are so good at what they do that only the people being abused can see it. To others, there is complete blindness to what is really happening.

 

This is, and should be, the high standard for legal conviction and sentencing to jail.  Other standards are appropriate for other more ordinary circumstances.

 

 

If I'm hiring a painter to paint my house, and one of my neighbors tells me she had an issue with silverware disappearing from her house when a particular contractor was in it.... I'm not waiting for a legal conviction and sentencing; I'm choosing a different painter.

 

If a family across town wants my 14 year old to babysit, and a fellow congregant tells me his daughter was skeeved out by the dad when he drove his daughter home... I'm not waiting for a legal conviction and sentencing; I'm telling my daughter she cannot babysit or drive in a car with that man.

 

If I'm choosing a dentist, and the first one I try skeeves ME out... I'm choosing a different dentist.

 

All of that is APPROPRIATE.  That we have a very high bar for legal conviction does not mean we should override judgment. Certainly we should not override other people's direct experience -- even if the bar for full prosecution and conviction is not met.

 

 

 

The issue that gossip entails, and religious/ethical prohibitions against it, is very tricky.  There is little doubt in my mind that the Jewish proscription against lashon hara, the telling of tales, has the *effect* of enabling perpetrators to keep on keeping on.  

 

Equally little, that that is not what God really wants.

[Dmmetler]

I've actually never heard of a third person being in a car during driving instruction. Or seen it when I see student drivers around town - I think it must not be standard.

When I did it, it was two or three students and one teacher,and the students would trade off. This was when it was offered ad school,though.

[Entropymama]

I don't know.  TBH I'm not sure that I think the never being alone with people thing is great, especially for young adults. In certain settings, maybe, but all? It kind of reminds me of only allowing girls out with chaperones and there are over-tones to that I am uncomfortable with.

 

 

This is one of the arguments I heard from another parent, but I have to disagree in this context. Yes, I think my child needs to be in situations where she learns to get along with adults without a chaperone; that's why she has a job, and goes to high school, and babysits, and volunteers at church, and goes to the store alone. These are situations in which she can learn to speak for herself and manage social situations without someone telling her how, but they are situations in which she has at least some modicum of power or control. She can leave the room, she can walk away, she can look to the other people around her for support if something seems off. Getting into a vehicle with an adult removes all these safety rails. She cannot get out of the car if she's uncomfortable. There's no one there to signal her, or for her to signal to, if something inappropriate is done or said. The instructor is in a position of power over her, in an enclosed space, with no 'out'. And, if he wanted to, the instructor could direct her to drive to a place she's unfamiliar with, so she might not even be able to drive home if she felt uncomfortable and had the courage to do so. Very few young girls have the self awareness to say, "Hey, what you said was inappropriate and I want to go home now." 

 

Plus, he's right next to her, unlike, for example, in an Uber where I'm in the back seat and the driver is up front. At least in that case the extent would be that the driver might say something that makes me uncomfortable. In the driver's ed scenario, the instructor could easily reach over, for example, and put his hand on my dd's thigh. What is she supposed to do then? Anyone who's been a victim will tell you that it's much harder to speak up for yourself in those situations than you might think. 

 

Frankly, it seems blatantly irresponsible from the view of the company. Imagine if an instructor did or said something inappropriate, or even was accused of having done so. The company could be sued. I can't believe they take such risks. My dh is a pastor and he could lose his job if he drove a teenaged girl home from church alone. 

[PrincessMommy]

They groom everyone. Carefully, so that they are fore armed in case of an accusation.

As an example that my friend and I talked about today - one of her abusers put the idea in her family's head that she was just a cold, unloving, unaffectionate person by nature. So when she was cold and unloving towards her abuser, as a preschooler, it was 'just her personality'

This adds to the internalised shame that there's something wrong with the victim.

 

Yes, my friend is freaking amazing.

 

This breaks my heart on so many levels.  I've always been the cold, judgy daughter.  I was told repeatedly I was the problem with other people because of my cold judgmental ways**  I was repeated made to feel guilty for not being loving and accepting.  I always felt a bit like Cassandra.  I never ever thought that it may have been that my family was groomed.  

 

**granted - I've always been very bad at faking it. If I don't like you *you* will know it.  I could never be a frenimy. 

[TechWife]

That we have a very high bar for legal conviction does not mean we should override judgment. Certainly we should not override other people's direct experience -- even if the bar for full prosecution and conviction is not met.

 

 

Thank you for saying this! We are simply not required to wait for the slow wheels of our justice system to turn in order to protect ourselves, those we love and those we care about. We do not have to place ourselves or anyone else in vulnerable positions.  "Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal phrase, to be applied in the court of law. It does not preclude us taking action to protect ourselves, nor does it preclude the ability of an employer to fire an employee who is doing damage to their reputation, and harboring a predator definitely does damage to the organization's reputation! 

[Pam in CT]

Thank you for saying this! We are simply not required to wait for the slow wheels of our justice system to turn in order to protect ourselves, those we love and those we care about. We do not have to place ourselves or anyone else in vulnerable positions.  "Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal phrase, to be applied in the court of law. It does not preclude us taking action to protect ourselves, nor does it preclude the ability of an employer to fire an employee who is doing damage to their reputation, and harboring a predator definitely does damage to the organization's reputation! 

 

 

Re employment: Right.  If a bodega owner suspects an employee from dipping into the register, or pilfering the merchandise -- merely suspects... there's no innocent until proven guilty, waiting for charges to be filed and a prosecutor to indict and a jury to convict.  

 

The employee is fired.  

 

This idea that the accused perpetrators of assault deserve more protection from #FalseAccusations than someone suspected of, say, pinching the merchandise is .... weird.  The implication is that as a society we value property rights more than the physical autonomy of victims.

[LMD]

This breaks my heart on so many levels. I've always been the cold, judgy daughter. I was told repeatedly I was the problem with other people because of my cold judgmental ways** I was repeated made to feel guilty for not being loving and accepting. I always felt a bit like Cassandra. I never ever thought that it may have been that my family was groomed.

 

**granted - I've always been very bad at faking it. If I don't like you *you* will know it. I could never be a frenimy.

*hugs*

I'm so sorry.

 

My friend says similar things, she has spent 30 years overcoming this (she has PTSD and works very hard to be functional), and even now is struck by how her family bought into it and didn't protect her. Slowly but surely, she realises that she is not the crazy/mean/stuck up/dirty/problematic one.

 

She now calls herself a secret weapon because she can spot these abusers and she gets fierce. It's a sight to behold!

 

The problem is, these men get away with it, they know we are largely powerless, they are smug.

 

I don't have answers. I think women especially are socialised to be nice, and that having uncompromising boundaries is not nice. That's the overriding the gift of fear thing, it's why we get into an elevator with a creep rather than offend him etc. It takes most of us well into adulthood to feel able to not care about what others think. Even with my children, I'm more likely to quietly usher them to safety than call out the creep. My friend would (and has) done both.

 

I agree with the previous poster, we need to listen to our kids - not just their words, they won't always be able to verbalise their experiences (heck sometimes I struggle to!) and believe them.

[Bluegoat]

When I did it, it was two or three students and one teacher,and the students would trade off. This was when it was offered ad school,though.

 

Yes, my dh did it at school that way.  It's not done in schools here as far as I know, they are generally private companies.

[happi duck]

My dd recently turned 16 and has just finished driver's ed. I was absolutely appalled that the driving portion of the class was to be her and a driving instructor, alone in a car, for two hours at a time. Going who knows where with someone I had never met. Even more disturbing was the fact that nobody else seemed bothered by it. Other parents simply shrugged and said that was how it had always been done, and when I called to ask if I could ride along with them, the employee acted like I was being ridiculous. We ended up getting a female driving instructor, which was better, but the whole thing was just bizarre. How, in our current culture and climate, could anyone think it was okay to put a 15 year old girl in that situation? And why am I being vilified for being uncomfortable about it?

Crazy!

 

Back in the 80s my high school would not allow the driving instructor to drive with one student. Same five years ago at the driving school DS attended.

 

Totally the norm here.

 

.

Edited February 7, 2018 by happi duck

[Guest]

I wonder if some of the problem lies in us being taught not to gossip about others. If someone makes you uncomfortable, but you can't really articulate why other than that it seemed a little bit off, people aren't inclined (and rightfully so) to publicly declare the person to be a creeper or a pedophile. There needs to be more evidence than just a gut feeling. We're more likely to remove ourselves from the situation (like the dr I mentioned in the PP) but if it became public that the person was actually a serial offender, we'd all come out and say we had suspected as much.

I think sometimes, possibly very often, it is that the person does not want to create an issue, so they don’t do anything, even if they DO agree that it was wrong/creepy/messed up. I know of one instance where a teenaged girl was forceably kissed and groped by an extended family member. The girl told her parents. They did not dispute her report. But they also did nothing other than tell the guy, “If this is true, don’t do that again.†I guess they could not face the idea of bringing charges or reacting in a strong way because it’s...not polite? Unpleasant? Just kind of wishing it to go away.

 

I also remember one time a young man, who had a sort of crush on my mother, planted a kiss on her mouth in the church parking lot, on a bright Sunday morning, right in front of my dad and all my siblings. She made a stunned, “Oh!†and my dad gave the guy a puzzled look and shook his head. The guy bounced off with a grin on his face. It was so bizarre! But my parents did nothing about it as far as I know. I think this is more of that - we don’t want to make waves, we don’t want to make a scene, we don’t want to cause disruption.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by rozes

[LMD]

Can you tell how she spots them? Does she 'see' things, or is it more an intuition thing? And what does she do when she thinks she's seeing one right in front of her?

 

I ask because I was once at an indoor pool during off hours with my kids and I'm fairly certain I was seeing one in action. It was at the poolside dressing rooms as I was waiting outside the door for my kids to change. The guy was practically pounding on another dressing room door insisting a ~12yob (!!) let him inside so he could "help" the kid get dressed. I interrupted him, so he cooled it for a short time. But as soon as he figured out that there wasn't much I could do (?), he went right back to knocking on the door, only using a more 'pleading' voice this time. It was distressing because I felt so powerless. But I was also encouraged that the boy never opened that door, telling the guy he was fine and could dress himself.

It's a bit of both I think. She absolutely goes charging over boundary pushing behaviour. Usually she looks them in the eye and says something loudly like 'why would a grown man do that, makes you look suspicious'

 

She also describes an intuitive type of experience, she says it's like being able to see a certain colour. She sees it and the waves of gut-sickness hits. She has been proven right more times than I can count - which has helped her overcome the gaslighting.

 

In that awful situation, I think you did a great job. I know that my friend would have done the same, she might have then stayed in between the man and the door while asking someone to call management/police. Yes, she's fierce, I doubt I could be so bold. She has lots of recurring nightmares where she 'practices' how to deal with this, so she kind of can't help herself in real life...

Edited February 8, 2018 by LMD

[Entropymama]

I think sometimes, possibly very often, it is that the person does not want to create an issue, so they don’t do anything, even if they DO agree that it was wrong/creepy/messed up. I know of one instance where a teenaged girl was forceably kissed and groped by an extended family member. The girl told her parents. They did not dispute her report. But they also did nothing other than tell the guy, “If this is true, don’t do that again.†I guess they could not face the idea of bringing charges or reacting in a strong way because it’s...not polite? Unpleasant? Just kind of wishing it to go away.

 

I also remember one time a young man, who had a sort of crush on my mother, planted a kiss on her mouth in the church parking lot, on a bright Sunday morning, right in front of my dad and all my siblings. She made a stunned, “Oh!†and my dad gave the guy a puzzled look and shook his head. The guy bounced off with a grin on his face. It was so bizarre! But my parents did nothing about it as far as I know. I think this is more of that - we don’t want to make waves, we don’t want to make a scene, we don’t want to cause disruption.

 

 

It's so true, but isn't it strange? Imagine someone taking your purse in the church parking lot, or punching your husband. I doubt anyone would hesitate to say those things were wrong, but we always assume we've mistaken someone's intentions when it comes to sexual aggression or manipulation. Why do we do this? 

[TechWife]

It's so true, but isn't it strange? Imagine someone taking your purse in the church parking lot, or punching your husband. I doubt anyone would hesitate to say those things were wrong, but we always assume we've mistaken someone's intentions when it comes to sexual aggression or manipulation. Why do we do this? 

 

I think that's a great question. 

[PrincessMommy]

It's so true, but isn't it strange? Imagine someone taking your purse in the church parking lot, or punching your husband. I doubt anyone would hesitate to say those things were wrong, but we always assume we've mistaken someone's intentions when it comes to sexual aggression or manipulation. Why do we do this? 

 

 

I don't know... but i hope someone does a in-depth study on this.  But, it is true, that we second-guess ourselves when it's manipulative behavior.  I think it's often the thought of, "Did I just see that or is it just me over-reacting?"   At least that's what goes through my mind.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Here is the thing. I trust  no one. I mean I guess I do and did trust my parents, and if one of them had turned out to be a child molester I would be devastated.  But I worked very hard to never not leave my kid alone with anyone.  When he was little I left him with a friend of mine that had a little girl his age....not often.  Doctor appt, that kind of thing.  I didn't send him to sleepovers.  I had a couple of sleep overs at my house, but I very closely supervised even other kids.  

 

We live in a sick world and I just wanted to be able to look back and say I did everything I possibly could to protect him.  

 

This. If you want to protect your children, you do not trust them with other people. I listened for YEARS to people tell me that I was too overprotective. While we didn't ban sleepovers, we were very, very choosy about where our kids went, whether it was day or night. I will never regret the choices we made. All it takes is ONE misstep, one instance of trusting a person or a situation that shouldn't have happened. It cannot be unchanged.

 

The number one person most likely to assault a child is a mother's boyfriend. No one likes to hear that, but it is true. Of course it doesn't mean that every boyfriend does, or that even most do. But don't leave your kid with this person until you know, you KNOW, that they are trustworthy.

 

Think a sleepover is safe? What about that big brother? What about that dad who shakes your hand at the door and then gets in your little girl's sleeping bag at night?That creepy grandpa? Don't leave your kid alone with him. That male babysitter? Nope (and for the love of God, please protect your son and not let them babysit either). That church youth group guy? Nope. I've worked in this field. We saw these things time and time and time again. And knowing these things in our group at work was not enough. At least two had daughters who were molested, one by a "trusted" family member, and the other in a long term situation over several years from the girl's best friend's father that went on the entire time she worked with us. Knowing what we knew was not enough to prevent it.

 

Don't.trust.people.with.your.kids.

[Scarlett]

This. If you want to protect your children, you do not trust them with other people. I listened for YEARS to people tell me that I was too overprotective. While we didn't ban sleepovers, we were very, very choosy about where our kids went, whether it was day or night. I will never regret the choices we made. All it takes is ONE misstep, one instance of trusting a person or a situation that shouldn't have happened. It cannot be unchanged.

 

The number one person most likely to assault a child is a mother's boyfriend. No one likes to hear that, but it is true. Of course it doesn't mean that every boyfriend does, or that even most do. But don't leave your kid with this person until you know, you KNOW, that they are trustworthy.

 

Think a sleepover is safe? What about that big brother? What about that dad who shakes your hand at the door and then gets in your little girl's sleeping bag at night?That creepy grandpa? Don't leave your kid alone with him. That male babysitter? Nope (and for the love of God, please protect your son and not let them babysit either). That church youth group guy? Nope. I've worked in this field. We saw these things time and time and time again. And knowing these things in our group at work was not enough. At least two had daughters who were molested, one by a "trusted" family member, and the other in a long term situation over several years from the girl's best friend's father that went on the entire time she worked with us. Knowing what we knew was not enough to prevent it.

 

Don't.trust.people.with.your.kids.

Yes. Times 10. We can assume no one would have people in their life who they know would molest their children. But you have to be realistic that SOMEONE is molesting children.

 

You want to hear a secret? I didn't trust my Dh with my son. Ds was 10 when we married and I never left him alone with him until he was MUCH older. Do I think my Dh would molest my son? Obviously I would not have married him if I did. But I was just so worried that I would be one of 'those' women that I just made sure I would t have to worry.

 

Don't trust people with your kids.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Scarlett

[Ravin]

I've actually never heard of a third person being in a car during driving instruction.  Or seen it when I see student drivers around town - I think it must not be standard.

When I learned to drive, we had like 3 students with the driver, two sat in the back, we'd take turns. That way, no one was alone with the driver, and we learned from each other's mistakes.

[rebcoola]

I don't know.  TBH I'm not sure that I think the never being alone with people thing is great, especially for young adults. In certain settings, maybe, but all? It kind of reminds me of only allowing girls out with chaperones and there are over-tones to that I am uncomfortable with.

I agree with you Bluegoat but drivers ed final/ drivers test are actually kind of perfect storm of usually young person, and someone with power over them.  I watch Canada's  worst driver and more than one woman has admitted to not actually passing but using sexual favors to get a pass.

[Carrie12345]

My dd recently turned 16 and has just finished driver's ed. I was absolutely appalled that the driving portion of the class was to be her and a driving instructor, alone in a car, for two hours at a time. Going who knows where with someone I had never met. Even more disturbing was the fact that nobody else seemed bothered by it. Other parents simply shrugged and said that was how it had always been done, and when I called to ask if I could ride along with them, the employee acted like I was being ridiculous. We ended up getting a female driving instructor, which was better, but the whole thing was just bizarre. How, in our current culture and climate, could anyone think it was okay to put a 15 year old girl in that situation? And why am I being vilified for being uncomfortable about it? 

 

My behind the wheel instruction, through the school but after hours, by the gym teacher, in the 90s, was one on one.

Ds's more recent, private instruction was also one on one.

I was always confused by tv shows and movies that showed multiple kids in a drivers ed car, lol.

 

I totally understand being uncomfortable with that.  However, I would ALSO be uncomfortable with my kids being in an automobile with other kids who are learning to drive.  Even today, on the road, I steer clear (haha) of student drivers.  Most of them don't know what they're doing.  Says someone whose instructor made her repeat the highway on ramp 4 times in a row until she managed to do it well...

 

But I also knew my instructor from school and the neighborhood. Doesn't prevent someone from being a creep, but there had been no creep signs in other contexts.

[Carrie12345]

I don't know.  TBH I'm not sure that I think the never being alone with people thing is great, especially for young adults. In certain settings, maybe, but all? It kind of reminds me of only allowing girls out with chaperones and there are over-tones to that I am uncomfortable with.

 

I do find it to be a difficult line to manage.  I consciously try to avoid being alone with students/kids in general (though I'm mostly around students) for their comfort and for my own protection.  And it's a rule of thumb in one co-op.  But there are times when I want to discuss grades with a student, or want to make sure they're doing okay with difficult personal situations, or whatever, and it's a tough call to make.  When it's someone my own kids are close with, I can sometimes pull them in as a third party, but that isn't always an option.

 

I think it makes it hard to be A Trusted Adult for the kids who are most in need of A Trusted Adult.  (I am mostly thinking about teenagers here, since they're the ones I interact with most.)

[Joules]

I do find it to be a difficult line to manage. I consciously try to avoid being alone with students/kids in general (though I'm mostly around students) for their comfort and for my own protection. And it's a rule of thumb in one co-op. But there are times when I want to discuss grades with a student, or want to make sure they're doing okay with difficult personal situations, or whatever, and it's a tough call to make. When it's someone my own kids are close with, I can sometimes pull them in as a third party, but that isn't always an option.

 

I think it makes it hard to be A Trusted Adult for the kids who are most in need of A Trusted Adult. (I am mostly thinking about teenagers here, since they're the ones I interact with most.)

This is true. There are kids and teens that are being abused or are troubled and need someone to turn to. Many of the decent people and organizations are moving to two deep. As a survivor, it’s hard enough to develop a rapport and feel safe to tell one person. Two would have been impossible. I don’t know a solution, but just wanted to comment on this other side.

[Elizabeth86]

Here is the thing. I trust no one. I mean I guess I do and did trust my parents, and if one of them had turned out to be a child molester I would be devastated. But I worked very hard to never not leave my kid alone with anyone. When he was little I left him with a friend of mine that had a little girl his age....not often. Doctor appt, that kind of thing. I didn't send him to sleepovers. I had a couple of sleep overs at my house, but I very closely supervised even other kids.

 

We live in a sick world and I just wanted to be able to look back and say I did everything I possibly could to protect him.

I'm the same way. My kids are ever alone with my parents and like you said unless they changed they can be trusted. You just can't undo things like that.