S/O : why don't Protestants like the term Protestant?

[poppy]

Spinning off from another thread.  Someone said "reformed" is a way of referring to any church that came out of the Protestant Reformation.

 

Which got me to thinking, people who are parts of churches that are technically "Protestant" never, ever refer to themselves as Protestants. Why is that?

 

I know that individual denominational identities can be very different, I don't expect people to identify as Protestant. But  I've noticed the term is really avoided in general.  I do not think of it as a pejorative, at all, so I am curious about the hesitancy.

 

Posting to avoid hijacking another thread. 

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Because Protestant is way too broad of a identifier. 

 

PS - I am a Protestant who is not reformed. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Jean in Newcastle

[Rachel]

I don’t know. I grew up Baptist and my dad always told me we were neither Catholic or Protestant. My husband and his family have been church of Christ for generations and they don’t like to be called Protestant either.

 

If you asked me directly if I was a Protestant, I would have to think a minute before saying I guess I technically am, and then clarifying what kind.

[JudoMom]

I'm fine with the term Protestant, and have used it on occasion.  But I find other terms to be more specific if people are asking about where I go to church or what I believe. From general to specific, I'd say I'm Christian, Protestant, Evangelical, Reformed, Presbyterian.

[Pawz4me]

The people I know -- almost all members of Protestant denominations -- by and large don't really have a good grasp of what Protestant means. Although most of them aren't ignorant people (by a long shot) and tend to be very sincere in their beliefs, on the whole they aren't well educated about religion. They don't ask the deep questions that are frequently asked on here. They'd eagerly tell you they were Baptists or Methodists (or whatever denomination), but if asked if they were Protestants most would be confused.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Pawz4me

[OneStepAtATime]

Term doesn't bother me at all, it just usually isn't terribly useful in conversations I have had where anyone was asking.  Usually I get "What church do you go to?"  "A Protestant one." would sound like I was avoiding answering the question.  It isn't specific enough.  Also, if someone were to ask what faith I am, saying Protestant is also not specific enough.  There is a HUGE range of difference between different denominations.  Of course, now I have shifted my views on quite a few things and the church my family was a member of shifted theirs as well so the church I am a member of I no longer feel reflects my beliefs.  I don't know what I would answer at this point.  Maybe Protestant would be closer than any specific denomination but I don't know...hmmm...

 

"Catholic" seems to convey more of a specific image/culture/belief system than Protestant so I tend to hear that used more often.

[poppy]

I don’t know. I grew up Baptist and my dad always told me we were neither Catholic or Protestant. My husband and his family have been church of Christ for generations and they don’t like to be called Protestant either.

 

If you asked me directly if I was a Protestant, I would have to think a minute before saying I guess I technically am, and then clarifying what kind.

 

I was dating a guy who grew up Church of Christ.  , I asked something general like "Oh, is that the kind of Protestant church where the ministers wear robes?"  and he looked surprised and he wasn't a Protestant.  It made me wonder, what does he think a Protestant is?  Or does he think it's an insulting term?

[poppy]

That someone was wrong. "Reformed" is a specific thread out of the Protestant Reformation. It doesn't include Lutherans.

 

She said capital-R Reformed meant something different than lowercase-r reformed.

[Daria]

Spinning off from another thread.  Someone said "reformed" is a way of referring to any church that came out of the Protestant Reformation.

 

Which got me to thinking, people who are parts of churches that are technically "Protestant" never, ever refer to themselves as Protestants. Why is that?

 

I know that individual denominational identities can be very different, I don't expect people to identify as Protestant. But  I've noticed the term is really avoided in general.  I do not think of it as a pejorative, at all, so I am curious about the hesitancy.

 

Posting to avoid hijacking another thread. 

 

I don't think that's what "Reformed" means, at least not in the context that it was asked.  Reformed theology is a specific subset of protestant theology, associated with John Calvin and Presbyterians.  There are plenty of Protestant denominations that have different theology.  

 

I don't think most people dislike the word "Protestant", because it's an umbrella term that encompasses a lot of specific groups, and most of the time people use the more specific label.  Generally, for example, I'd be more likely to tell people that my family is "Episcopalian", rather than "Protestant", for the same reason that someone might say that they're "French" rather than "European".   

 

Having said that, I work in a Catholic school, and I'll will make the comment that I'm "Protestant" or "was raised Protestant", if I'm responding to something where I think the Catholic church's teaching is pretty unique.  For example, recently a kid asked me a question about Saints.  Since the Catholic church's teaching on Saints is pretty distinct from the teaching of all Protestant denominations, I told the kid "You know, that's a question where you'll want a specific Catholic answer, so ask Ms. Z.  I was raised Protestant, so my answer might not match."  

[Daria]

I was dating a guy who grew up Church of Christ.  , I asked something general like "Oh, is that the kind of Protestant church where the ministers wear robes?"  and he looked surprised and he wasn't a Protestant.  It made me wonder, what does he think a Protestant is?  Or does he think it's an insulting term?

 

That's a specific Church of Christ belief.  They believe that they are descendants of the original Christians, and that, essentially, the Catholic church broke off from the original Christians.  Whereas a Catholic church believes that they are the descendants of the original church, and a Protestant church is one that broke off from the Catholic church during the Protestant Reformation.

 

There are also plenty of denominations where ministers wear robes.  There's not one "kind" of church where ministers wear robes.

[SKL]

I grew up in the Lutheran faith and as far as I know, Lutherans call themselves Protestants.  I have never heard of it being otherwise for other Protestants.

[lauraw4321]

I've always used the term (mostly because I have meandered through many of those denominations). I've been a member of a southern baptist church, UMC, and PC-USA churches as an adult. I'm pretty much with Wesley on my theology - essentials, and grace for all the rest. I would be open to catholicism, but my DH is pretty opposed. I probably would best fit theologically within orthodoxy, but I go where the preaching is good, music is good, and kids' faith grows. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Church of Christ is part of the restorationist movement. They don't consider themselves to be descended from the reformation but to have restarted the church as it was in the first century.

Right.

 

And I'm sorry to be the one to add this, but they think the Catholic Church was apostate and still is - that it was not and still is not part of Christ's church - so they don't like "Protestant" because they think they didn't protest something existing. They think they were here first, so if you want, call the Catholics apostate but don't call the real Christians Protestant.

 

It's an insult to say Protestant because of a chick and egg, "who blinked first" perspective.

 

Apologies for knowing this and for explaining it. Without my permission, I was brought up in the church of Christ.

[lauraw4321]

That's a specific Church of Christ belief.  They believe that they are descendants of the original Christians, and that, essentially, the Catholic church broke off from the original Christians.  Whereas a Catholic church believes that they are the descendants of the original church, and a Protestant church is one that broke off from the Catholic church during the Protestant Reformation.

 

There are also plenty of denominations where ministers wear robes.  There's not one "kind" of church where ministers wear robes.

 

Some baptists believe this as well (that they are tied to the real, original church).

 

I once mentioned that there used to be only one denomination (the Catholic church), and my very southern baptist father quickly disagreed with me. 

[poppy]

Church of Christ is part of the restorationist movement. They don't consider themselves to be descended from the reformation but to have restarted the church as it was in the first century.

 

That's really interesting! But, he used Church of Christ and Congregationalist interchangeably...

 

Now google tells me that there are Protestant Congregationalists and Church of Christ Congregationalists.

This is interesting , thanks for helping me untangle.

[Garga]

Too broad of a term. I’m sure there are some people who don’t know what “Protestant†actually means and if you say, “Oh, you’re Protestant then?†they’d be thrown for a loop. Cute/silly story: When my cousin was a young teen, she told a few people, “I’m not a Christian; I’m a Baptist,†before someone explained to her that she was both. :).

 

I can see some adults not understanding that they’re Protestants, because most people self-identify with a specific denomination.

 

For those who understand the term it’s not that they don’t like the term, it’s that it sounds archaic and too broad to have any real meaning.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Garga

[EmseB]

I'm Protestant and have no problem calling myself that. It is pretty broad to me, meaning (mainly) Christian but not Catholic or Orthodox. But it's not offensive, not even remotely.

Edited January 8, 2018 by EmseB

[Laura Corin]

  Generally, for example, I'd be more likely to tell people that my family is "Episcopalian", rather than "Protestant", for the same reason that someone might say that they're "French" rather than "European".   

 

 

Isn't Episcopalian a special case?  The Church of England, after all, has as much a political as a religious origin, and I've heard it said that it doesn't (or perhaps didn't) 'count' as protestant.

 

But I know no history of the Church later that around 1714....

[Carol in Cal.]

She said capital-R Reformed meant something different than lowercase-r reformed.

That's true, and by that definition the Roman Catholics are also reformed.

It's kind of a useless term if you use it that way.

[LMD]

I like Protestant just fine. I wouldn't have called my fellow protestants ignorant of their religion, we had plenty of references to Luther et al in sermons this year (the 500th anniversary thing...)

There is a vast difference between say, Lutheran and Assembly of God denominations such that Protestant is really too vague - it's like saying 'not Catholic'

[G5052]

Some people are very sensitive about religious labels.

 

I figure things like that are like asking someone where they were born. It's a marker, nothing more.

[Katy]

Some baptists believe this as well (that they are tied to the real, original church).

 

I once mentioned that there used to be only one denomination (the Catholic church), and my very southern baptist father quickly disagreed with me. 

 

I've had a similar conversation with a Southern Baptist relative.  Who didn't realize King James English didn't exist in biblical times or that Jesus didn't speak it.  Sigh.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Katy

[poppy]

That's true, and by that definition the Roman Catholics are also reformed.

It's kind of a useless term if you use it that way.

 

Reformed from what? I don't get it.

[lauraw4321]

I've had a similar conversation with a Southern Baptist relative.  Who didn't realize King James English didn't exist in biblical times or that Jesus didn't speak it.  Sigh.

 

My father said that if KJV was good enough for Paul and Silas, it was good enough for him.

 

At least he was truly joking on that one.

[Carol in Cal.]

I grew up in the Lutheran faith and as far as I know, Lutherans call themselves Protestants.  I have never heard of it being otherwise for other Protestants.

This has kind of fallen into disuse among the more conservative Lutherans.

 

I am not sure why, but some of it is that the term protestant has become identified with either the mainline denominations, which are generally extremely liberal, or the evangelical or megachurches, which are so different in beliefs from us that it makes no sense to be lumped into that category.  

 

There is a pretty good book about denominations in the US from a conservative Lutheran perspective, and its title is 'Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant'.  

[Katy]

While I agree that not every protestant is reformed, I suspect the whole label thing came more as a result of natural language evolution; ie: people use words to describe themselves that they know.  If your church doesn't use the word protestant at least occasionally, you're unlikely to identify as such even if you are a protestant unless you're particularly interested in theology.

[Rachel]

That's really interesting! But, he used Church of Christ and Congregationalist interchangeably...

 

Now google tells me that there are Protestant Congregationalists and Church of Christ Congregationalists.

This is interesting , thanks for helping me untangle.

That’s a different church of Christ than the one I’m familiar with.

[Carol in Cal.]

Reformed from what? I don't get it.

From before the Reformation.

 

At the time of it there were a ton of Catholics calling for reform in the church, not just Luther for sure, and there were some changes afterwards.  

[solascriptura]

I think it depends on the person. The term doesn’t bother me in the least.

[Garga]

Reformed from what? I don't get it.

The Protestant reformation happened (this is the watered down version) because people felt the Catholic church (which was the only church) was too worldly and needed to be reformed. Martin Luther and his theses about what was wrong with the church kicked this all off. This ended in sects splintering off from the church and being called Protestant.

 

After a while, the Catholic leaders also realized that the Catholic church was too worldly, and so they fixed things. They had their own reformation. I think it was called the Counter Reformation.

 

Is that what you’re asking about? I’m only going off of what we read last month in my son’s middle school history lessons, so I don’t know a lot about it—just the basics. :)

Edited January 8, 2018 by Garga

[Crimson Wife]

"Protestant" is a term that my Protestant relatives use (they consider themselves WASP's) and I never heard of it being a controversial term until I was an adult. But I also never met any Protestant who didn't belong to one of the liberal mainline denominations until I was an adult. The Protestants I knew growing up were either Episcopalian, UCC/Congregationalist, or belonged to the liberal wings of Lutheran and Methodism.

[poppy]

Some people are very sensitive about religious labels.

 

I figure things like that are like asking someone where they were born. It's a marker, nothing more.

 

I just want to be super clear that I am not Christian. My questions are as an outside observer. Hopefully will not offend anyone.    I truly don't meant to be disrespectful.

 

[milovany]

I didn't know I was a Protestant when I was a Protestant, lol, so I didn't like the term because I didn't think it applied to me. I didn't like divisions in the church and thought this was just another division.  I thought we should all "just be Christians" without the denominations.  In my case, I then took a look at church history -- with the help of some people here, both Christian and non-Christian -- and realized that I was in fact a Protestant, but that I didn't have to be.  There were other options. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by milovany

[Rachel]

Right.

 

And I'm sorry to be the one to add this, but they think the Catholic Church was apostate and still is - that it was not and still is not part of Christ's church - so they don't like "Protestant" because they think they didn't protest something existing. They think they were here first, so if you want, call the Catholics apostate but don't call the real Christians Protestant.

 

It's an insult to say Protestant because of a chick and egg, "who blinked first" perspective.

 

Apologies for knowing this and for explaining it. Without my permission, I was brought up in the church of Christ.

I have gone to a church of Christ for the last 20ish years. At least at the churches I have attended, they are quite clear their origins are from the restoration movement aka the Stone-Campbell movement which is where the Christian, Christian Disciples of Christ, and church of Christ originated. I’ve never heard anyone say anything about thinking they were the original church and I’ve been to several studies on church history.

 

OP- sorry to derail your thread.

[luuknam]

I feel like the word Protestant is used a lot more often in NL than in the US. I could be wrong though. 

 

ETA: iirc every primary school I attended billed itself as a Protestant-Christian school - I don't think they got specific about whether they were Dutch Reformed or Continental Reformed (the two main branches of Protestant Christianity in NL).

Edited January 8, 2018 by luuknam

[lauraw4321]

I have gone to a church of Christ for the last 20ish years. At least at the churches I have attended, they are quite clear their origins are from the restoration movement aka the Stone-Campbell movement which is where the Christian, Christian Disciples of Christ, and church of Christ originated. I’ve never heard anyone say anything about thinking they were the original church and I’ve been to several studies on church history.

 

OP- sorry to derail your thread.

Maybe we’re talking about different denominations?

 

They consider themselves restorers of the church founded in 30 AD.

 

http://church-of-christ.org/who

[Jean in Newcastle]

That's really interesting! But, he used Church of Christ and Congregationalist interchangeably...

 

Now google tells me that there are Protestant Congregationalists and Church of Christ Congregationalists.

This is interesting , thanks for helping me untangle.

 

Congregational is simply a form of church government.  So a congregational church can have variable beliefs (and thus be different denominations) but they vote the same way and have the same kind of government - one that has the congregation making the decisions rather than leaders at the top. 

[Pawz4me]

I've had a similar conversation with a Southern Baptist relative.  Who didn't realize King James English didn't exist in biblical times or that Jesus didn't speak it.  Sigh.

 

Apparently we know the same people . . . :lol:

[JumpyTheFrog]

“Reformed†means the person or denomination is Calvinist. I’ve never heard it used any other way, although I am really only aware of Protestant denominations. So if Catholics use it to mean something else, please tell me.

[EmseB]

I think it's confusing because there are terms describing how a church's government works (presbyterian, congregationalist, etc), and terms that denote certain beliefs. So if I say I'm Presbyterian, that doesn't really tell you anything about what "flavor" Christian I am (liberal, conservative, Reformed, arminian, etc.), but it does tell you how my church governs itself (elders report to a session which reports to a regional assembly, which reports to a general assembly).

 

The term protestant covers a wide variety of both beliefs and governing styles.

[Daria]

That's really interesting! But, he used Church of Christ and Congregationalist interchangeably...

 

Now google tells me that there are Protestant Congregationalists and Church of Christ Congregationalists.

This is interesting , thanks for helping me untangle.

 

Congregationalist refers to a certain form of church government, where the individual congregation is self governing and isn't responsible to any higher body.  (Unlike, say, Catholics who are responsible to the Vatican)

 

Church of Christ churches are congregationalist, because they are governed at the church level.

 

There are also individual churches called "Congregationalist" churches that are Protestant.  And, there's a denomination called the United Church of Christ, which has different beliefs from the Church of Christ, and which grew out of Congregationalist churches that came together to form a denomination.

[Daria]

“Reformed†means the person or denomination is Calvinist. I’ve never heard it used any other way, although I am really only aware of Protestant denominations. So if Catholics use it to mean something else, please tell me.

 

Jews use it to mean something different, but I've never heard Catholics use it.

[8circles]

There was a poster on here who used the term as an insult. I had never heard it used that way before and when talking to her I didn't appreciate her using it like that and she accused me of being ignorant - that I didn't realize I was Protestant or something.

 

Anyhow, I have always self-identified as Protestant and have never known a Protestant who didn't. 

 

However, there are many more useful and descriptive words that are usually better.

[ktgrok]

Reformed from what? I don't get it.

As in the counter-reformation.

[SKL]

Yeah, maybe the meaning has changed over the years.  Used to be that categorizations were made between Catholic and Protestant (generally meaning non-Catholic Christian) for polling purposes etc.  And that is how I thought it was meant when people used the term "WASP."  This thread is full of surprises for me.  For example, that the Church of England was not Protestant - but isn't that what the non-Catholic monarchs called themselves since Henry VIII left the Roman Catholic church over a divorce?  At least the history books refer to them as Protestant.  And what about the orange Irish?

[Rachel]

Maybe we’re talking about different denominations?

 

They consider themselves restorers of the church founded in 30 AD.

 

http://church-of-christ.org/who

That’s the same one, maybe I fell asleep in class! Our previous minister was very focused on the Stone-Campbell movement and that was about the time I got married so I possibly got very confused. 😛

 

Edited to add: From that article “Members of the church of Christ do not conceive of themselves as a new church started near the beginning of the 19th century. Rather, the whole movement is designed to reproduce in contemporary times the church originally established on Pentecost, A.D. 30. The strength of the appeal lies in the restoration of Christ's original church.â€

 

I’ve never heard that. I’m going to have to ask my husband if he’s ever heard that.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Rach

[Pam in CT]

Growing up, I thought all Christians were either Catholic or "Protestant" -- that "Protestant" referred to all the many variants that grew out of (what I thought of as) the "Protestant Reformation."  

 

Once I reached adulthood and met a wider range of people (lol) I've kind of mentally expanded the "all Christian" label to include Catholic + EO + Mormon + Protestant (still a pretty big catch-all still covering a pretty wide range).

 

Now I learn...

Church of Christ is part of the restorationist movement. They don't consider themselves to be descended from the reformation but to have restarted the church as it was in the first century.

 

... Church of Christ members also consider themselves to stand outside the Protestant catchall?  I never knew that.

 

Do others of you who identify as Christian trace your organizational and/or theological lineage outside the Reformation?

[PrincessMommy]

That someone was wrong. "Reformed" is a specific thread out of the Protestant Reformation. It doesn't include Lutherans.

 

Or Anglicans...

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I have gone to a church of Christ for the last 20ish years. At least at the churches I have attended, they are quite clear their origins are from the restoration movement aka the Stone-Campbell movement which is where the Christian, Christian Disciples of Christ, and church of Christ originated. I’ve never heard anyone say anything about thinking they were the original church and I’ve been to several studies on church history.

OP- sorry to derail your thread.

Over forty plus years, I've heard many references to "pockets" of hidden and isolated real Christians who kept the first century church intact from the time of the apostles until now...that is the answer when you ask why there is nothing in church or secular history about them. Pockets.

 

This is important because if you believe that the kingdom will stand forever and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, you can NOT have a history during which the church was lost or misplaced, and had to be restored.

 

They do believe they were the ones to restore it, but they will not accept that there were not a handful of authentic Christians and churches (people believing and worshiping identically to modern Cofc) still somewhere at every time between the apostles and now.

 

It's only been in the last decade that I've known of hardline church of Christ preachers acknowledging that Catholics protected sacred texts through the dark ages.

[6packofun]

Because Protestant is way too broad of a identifier. 

 

PS - I am a Protestant who is not reformed. 

 

My exact answer.  I dislike reformed as a broad label as well. Both terms don't "work" for me.