S/O - generational differences in homeschoolers

[Meriwether]

I don't think the label matters per se. It just is a way of describing a mindset. But as Homeschool Mom said, you can also subdivide us old schoolers by homeschool philosophy. I know mine. I researched it. ;)

 

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I know my homeschool philosophy, too. I've done rather a lot of reading on the subject. I know how I would label myself. Often when these discussions come up, people get pigeonholed in some way or another. Different people would probably characterize my homeschool in different ways, depending on what they are comparing it to. Whatever label people choose to give it doesn't change the reality of what it is.

[lots of little ducklings]

There's no question that the advent of the internet and the plethora of options available have changed the homeschooling landscape.  And changes in the public schools (cultural shifts, overcrowded classrooms, the loss of small neighborhood schools, etc.) have pushed people out into the homeschooling realm who might otherwise not have wanted to homeschool.  

 

What's interesting to me is that there really isn't a great label available for those who aren't using traditional b+m schools, but aren't exactly "at home" either.  I met just such a mom recently, and she stumbled over her words as she introduced herself, because she really didn't know what to call herself.  Her kids were mostly outsourced: one was enrolled full-time (all subjects) at a sort-of UM-style homeschool program (which typically isn't full-time); one was dual-enrolled for about 60% of his subjects at a Christian school; and the youngest was still at home for all early elementary subjects, but in a co-op too.  

 

 Legally, she qualifies as a homeschooler in our state. She is in charge of her children's educational options in a way that traditional B+M parents aren't.  But she feels she can't call herself a homeschooler anymore.  What other label would work, though? (Beside Chauffeur, I mean! :laugh: ) 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Lotsoflittleducklings

[lots of little ducklings]

You can always text me. ;)

 

And at all hours of your time-zone, too.   :D

 

 

#jeanisawesome

[SeaConquest]

I must admit that I went to my first homeschool convention over the summer. We only went because it was at the Great Wolf Lodge, and the kids wanted to go again. I didn't get much, if anything out of it, no doubt in large part because of this board.

 

I probably belong to 10-15 FB groups for homeschoolers. Occasionally, I will save a post, but I get the best advice here.

 

So, while I'm most definitely an accidental homeschooler, and outsource numerous subjects already, I count this board as my most trusted homeschooling resource. And I mention it to most every other homeschooler who asks for advice. This place would not be the same without the wisdom of the oldschoolers. Curriculum recs may come and go, but I've learned so much more than that here about homeschooling and parenting.

Edited October 15, 2017 by SeaConquest

[Jean in Newcastle]

Regardless of the generational differences, and despite experience and confidence levels, we're still all muddling through this together. None of us knows everything we need to know for all children and scenarios. That's one of the good things about this board. We can bounce all sorts of information and advice off of each other. We can all benefit from each other. I have learned lots from people of all ages and experience levels. The thing about generational differences is that sometimes we can talk past each other but an attitude of mutual respect and courtesy can fix that.

 

 

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[Guest]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. There is a big difference as others have mentioned. Less playing and parkdays than before, more co-ops and organized activities now.

 

Education itself is different than before. In the past, a teacher would present material then ask if there were any questions, or initiate a conversation. Now a teacher will ask the student questions about a topic, as if the teacher didn't know the answer themselves, then they correct the students' responses.

 

As a veteran, I don't like giving advice to newschoolers. I noticed newschoolers tend to support each other by complaining about how busy they are or telling about how awful they're doing. A different generation for sure.

[kewb]

This is my last year homeschooling. We started in 2007 and I have seen a shift from when I started to now. A shift in numbers of people homeschooling, a shift in how people are homeschooling, a shift in how my experience is viewed. And a shift in the resources I utilized with ds and now dd.

The internet was a game changer. The plethora of options has been a game changer.

I don't feel like I have much to contribute to someone's journey because there are options that weren't available when I started. Not that I offer unsolicited advice. And if I being honest, I am always surprised when someone considers me a voice of experience because I always feel like I am winging it.

[Bluegoat]

That's what I've seen too.  No more can you expect to have a conversation with a newbie about educational philosophy; it's hit or miss, but usually a miss. Often newbies, and to be honest, a few old schoolers,  respond as though discussing educational philosophy is pedantic, burdensome, or irrelevant.  Then when they ask for book/curriculum/blog recommendations, they don't understand why you would want to know their educational philosophy. (!??!?!??) It's like refusing to discuss your personal preferences for spice palates and flavorings, then asking which restaurant someone recommends.  Uh, honey, if I don't have a sense of what you do and don't like and what your general goals are, then how can I recommend anything that might be a good match? Or they are so unfamiliar with general differences in philosophies, that they don't understand the basic terminology, so you have to talk to them like they're not homeschoolers. There really are newbies who do their homework and come in asking more detailed questions of veterans, but I would say they're a small minority in my experience.

 

The other awkward thing is that some are not aware of what a philosophical homeschooler is (someone who sees children as designed to learn best within the family structure) because they haven't looked into all the philosophies and approaches within the homeschooling community, and like people who enter another culture with little preparation, they unintentionally do and say things that aren't received well. They may be very excited about an option where they don't have to do the teaching themselves, but not everyone else is looking for that kind of thing. Depending on how they present that information, it could come off negatively.  I've seen it done (not always) in a way that suggests homeschoolers not taking advantage of such opportunities are choosing the lesser path for their kids or that choosing not to take it is unreasonable and will leave the kids behind in some way.

 

The one thing I notice the most is trash talking ps teachers. It used to be taboo around here to talk negatively about ps teachers.  Now we have people who get upset about a bad experience in ps, pull their kids out, and then come into the hs community, and gripe about a bad teacher experience. Some even go on about ps in general and how their kid didn't get individual attention, the curriculum wasn't exactly what their individual child needed, and how it's secular. They somehow assume that every homeschooler would be willing to commiserate with them.  They have no idea a philosophical homeschooler is likely to think something like, Well, institutional schools are a mass production environment out of necessity and practicality.  If you want a customized education, then do it yourself. Uh, how does everyone not already know that?

 

And some of them have no idea that many a homeschool mom and/or dad are former or current ps teachers.  Now, there is a subset of a branch of politics that vilifies ps in general, and branches of subsets of Christianity that do too, but it's not cool to talk bad about about fellow homeschoolers and their spouses who were/are lovely people, even Christian,  doing a great job in ps.  They don't need anyone's crap.  Some of us have good friends, family members, church members who are ps teachers and we know they're very conscientious people working hard in a challenging situation.  We don't take kindly to them being insulted and slandered and I suspect they don't either.

 

 

There was a documentary about schooling on tv here a while ago - mostly private schooling but also homeschooling - and how there had been an exposition of choices/

 

A few of the experts they interviewed identified parents wanting an education that really focused on their individual kids, and took them as far as they could possibly go, as a reason for the change - the parents were just much more involved in  the nitty gritty than parents of previous generations who tended to accept what the school chose without much worry.

[Soror]

I do see a whole lot of people just jumping into hs'ing without really buying into it. A lot of times I don't bother trying to help because the questions are so vague and open-ended. As I said in the other thread many newcomers don't seem to be nearly as interested in the research aspect. A lot want to just have someone tell them what to do(and do it for them if that is an option). So, many think there is something missing if their kid doesn't have some organized teaching from an outside source, that just baffles my mind coming from hs'ers. Yes, sometimes you may want to outsource but to think it is required for hs'ing seems a bit odd.

 

I run a hs group but am clear it is just for fun/extra stuff, some educational stuff but I'm not looking at providing core subjects for other people's kids. TBH though we've always had a subset that wanted others to educate their kids and btw they need it done for free/really cheap because they don't have any money. They would jump in when anything was offered but wouldn't lend a hand to help, like in any volunteer community a few people do most of the work. The local community had been built around this model so I started a new group because it burned me out and my energy is limited, the free-loaders will reform or find something else to do. 

 

On a side note, to piggyback off of what Murphy mentioned, I think a lot of hs'ing is parenting and home management, I believe my experience in this area will remain relevant even when my curriculum choices are long outdated. I don't want to be the person popping into threads recommended the same 30 y.o. out of date curriculum for *every* single person trying to convince all hs'ers they need to do it the way I did it. Choices are great and evolution is natural. 

[Carrie12345]

My kids *thrive* on this kind of socialization.  Me, not so much, but I'm not doing this for me, or for people who ask the S question.  My kids were miserable when we did few to no organized activities.  Their misery made me miserable.  Their happiness makes me exhausted, but it's way better than miserable.

 

But surely someone will take offense to my family's experience.

 

Why? I don’t take offense to it. Just like there’s soccer or scout moms out there spending many hours every week helping their kid be in those activities. I’m not offended that someone else’s family has a different hobby than me or that they are more into socializing then me. Good for them.

 

That’s not the issue I have with parents who seem horrified that I have one night a week that is my activity. Or that we don’t have any playing sports. Or whatever else. If what they are doing is working for them - that’s awesome applesauce. I’m just doing what works for us.

 

Because someone (doesn't have to be you) always takes offense to or disapproves of what makes other people happy if it contradicts their experience or belief.  I really didn't think my choice of words would surprise anyone on this board, especially not in this thread!

[Carrie12345]

That's what I've seen too.  No more can you expect to have a conversation with a newbie about educational philosophy; it's hit or miss, but usually a miss. Often newbies, and to be honest, a few old schoolers,  respond as though discussing educational philosophy is pedantic, burdensome, or irrelevant.  Then when they ask for book/curriculum/blog recommendations, they don't understand why you would want to know their educational philosophy. (!??!?!??) It's like refusing to discuss your personal preferences for spice palates and flavorings, then asking which restaurant someone recommends.  Uh, honey, if I don't have a sense of what you do and don't like and what your general goals are, then how can I recommend anything that might be a good match? Or they are so unfamiliar with general differences in philosophies, that they don't understand the basic terminology, so you have to talk to them like they're not homeschoolers. There really are newbies who do their homework and come in asking more detailed questions of veterans, but I would say they're a small minority in my experience.

 

I recently had a FB friend ask me to talk homeschooling with a relative of theirs who was considering it, and got very excited.  I could do that all day!  I wrote out a whole long thing... then found out they were enrolling in a cyber charter.

 

I have nothing against cyber charters. I used one in 2006 for one child and in 2007 for another child.  But I have pretty much nothing to offer a "cyber schooler by circumstance", and wound up feeling like a big dope wasting everyone's time.  She was looking for a way to do school without sending her kids to school, which I think is great. (BTDT.)  But my experience on that front is outdated and no longer has anything to do with how I've been homeschooling for years.  She didn't need to hear anything about the resources I use to cultivate each kid's curriculum and methods, tailor to their needs and interests, and create a lifestyle instead of a schooling method!  :o Oops.

[momacacia]

This is so interesting to me. So, MIL homeschooled from about 1982 until 2012, 9 kids. She had no real educational philosophy she worked from, used a lot of Abeka, Bob Jones, Rod and Staff, eventually graduated to Sonlight, sent the kids for certain classes to a small private school that would let homeschoolers take piecemeal classes, and drools over the co-op I send my K and 1st kids to which I just consider glorified babysitting for a day. She was against Common Core, but had no clue why when I questioned her.

 

My homeschool is significantly more "old school" than hers and tailored much more to each child. (I have 3 "in school" now.) Except there is the added pressure of rigor, and I don't wear denim skirts.

 

And the only thing that has gotten her to stop talking like "homeschooling is the only way" is that neither of her daughters are homeschooling their kids (because they don't feel their education was good enough...which imo is partly an issue of theirs). Yes, she kept her kids out of public school and mostly private school, but it was p.s. at home. And that's okay. They've all turned out pretty well (especially my dh :-) and all have done some amount or more of college.

 

I'm just less impressed by "old homeschoolers," knowing one up close, than I should be otherwise.

[ikslo]

I don't think the label matters per se. It just is a way of describing a mindset. But as Homeschool Mom said, you can also subdivide us old schoolers by homeschool philosophy. I know mine. I researched it. ;)

 

 

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I know what I'm not, more than I know what I am. My philosophy is ever changing, and has a little of this and a little of that. I take what works and leave the rest. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Isn't learning and growing as a person what education is all about?

[Lady Florida.]

Some are tired of homeschooling.  Some just want to move on to the next chapter of their lives.  Some, being empty nesters, finally have the time to do those things we couldn't really do when the kids needed so much for us.  Some are taking care of elderly relatives.  Some are enjoying being grandparents.  Some are going back to work because of economic challenges.  Some are going into new careers.  Some are headed back to college or getting certification in a new skill.

 

It's really important to live life in chapters because the only thing constant in life is change. 

 

Right. People rarely stay involved with public schools or scouting or dance or you name it, once their kids move on. There's nothing wrong with moving on to the next phase of life. Those who do choose to stay involved should also stay up to date on changes in homeschooling or their advice won't be useful.

 

 

People don't need to ask veterans in person anymore; it's optional.   There are books, blogs, seminars, webinars, conventions, websites like this, and then some. It's just not as hard to get the voice of experience anymore and if you get 5 or 10 minutes into reading it or listening to it, and you figure out it's not a fit for you thenyou can turn it off or put it down, which you can't do with an in person conversation.  That's a huge advantage now. It's really efficient and searchable compared to back in the day.

 

This. This I think, is the biggest change. In the past you needed to talk to veterans and go in person to conventions (though I've never been to a big convention) because that was how information was disseminated. The internet, as we know, has changed many things. Homeschoooling is one of those things.

 

There's no question that the advent of the internet and the plethora of options available have changed the homeschooling landscape.  And changes in the public schools (cultural shifts, overcrowded classrooms, the loss of small neighborhood schools, etc.) have pushed people out into the homeschooling realm who might otherwise not have wanted to homeschool.  

 

What's interesting to me is that there really isn't a great label available for those who aren't using traditional b+m schools, but aren't exactly "at home" either.  I met just such a mom recently, and she stumbled over her words as she introduced herself, because she really didn't know what to call herself.  Her kids were mostly outsourced: one was enrolled full-time (all subjects) at a sort-of UM-style homeschool program (which typically isn't full-time); one was dual-enrolled for about 60% of his subjects at a Christian school; and the youngest was still at home for all early elementary subjects, but in a co-op too.  

 

 Legally, she qualifies as a homeschooler in our state. She is in charge of her children's educational options in a way that traditional B+M parents aren't.  But she feels she can't call herself a homeschooler anymore.  What other label would work, though? (Beside Chauffeur, I mean! :laugh: ) 

 

I remember the homeschool wars, similar to mommy wars. Those who outsourced or did online schools shouldn't call themselves homeschoolers, is how the argument went. They'll dilute the meaning of the word, they said. Personally I was an advocate of choice but there were those who were dead set against anyone who didn't actually teach their own kids at home calling themselves homeschoolers.

[skimomma]

There are probably others like me that are islands who have never really thought about old school versus new.  This board is the only place where I discuss homeschooling.  We homeschool for two very simple reasons.  I felt I could provide a better education for my dd than the local schools and our family very highly values flexibility.  My dd has two interests that take up a great deal of time.  She would not be able to do either of them, let alone even one, to the level she wants without the flexible schedule that homeschooling allows.

 

I don't have a philosophy.  I use what works.  Sometimes I have to make my own curriculum, sometimes I use purchased curriculum, and sometimes I outsource online (hello, Latin).  We do not do any co-ops and we are not part of a homeschool group of any kind.  We have a large somehow publicly-funded homeschool "center" that not only has classes of all kinds but also provides funding to homeschool families for all kinds of things like DE, extracurricular activities, and curriculum.  There are park days.  I am simply not interested in any of these things.  I do what I do with occasional advice and reviews from people on this board.  I don't want interference nor do I want to be tied down to a schedule and/or rules.  No one asks for my advice either.  Dd's (and my) social groups have nothing to do with homeschooling.  All of dd's friends go to traditional school.  Aside from talking about life in general, homeschooling never comes up.  My dd is in high school now and is largely self-learning with a great deal of scaffolding by me.  I don't need someone to tell me if that is OK or part of an approved philosophy.  I do it because it works for us and is resulting in the outcomes I would like to see.  

 

All that to say that I don't see trends in methods or attitudes as I don't have a baseline.  I have noticed a huge increase in curriculum choices and online classes since I started which I appreciate.  I do think I will be "obsolete" soon after dd graduates simply because things are changing quickly and without skin in the game, I will not be current.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think the biggest difference is passion.

 

The earliest (waaaay before me) homeschoolers had to be crazy passionate to pursue this.  It was illegal or claimed to be in most areas, it was weird, kids were subject to truancy pick ups, people hid. in. their. homes. during school hours for fear that their kids would be taken by CPS.

 

In my time, it was still weird to homeschool, and questionable, and some states called it illegal (like mine).  It was distinctly abnormal.  You had to be passionate to do it.

 

Now, it's just an option.

 

That does change the population a lot, as well as the 'feel' of it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Right. People rarely stay involved with public schools or scouting or dance or you name it, once their kids move on. There's nothing wrong with moving on to the next phase of life. Those who do choose to stay involved should also stay up to date on changes in homeschooling or their advice won't be useful.

 

 

 

This. This I think, is the biggest change. In the past you needed to talk to veterans and go in person to conventions (though I've never been to a big convention) because that was how information was disseminated. The internet, as we know, has changed many things. Homeschoooling is one of those things.

 

 

I remember the homeschool wars, similar to mommy wars. Those who outsourced or did online schools shouldn't call themselves homeschoolers, is how the argument went. They'll dilute the meaning of the word, they said. Personally I was an advocate of choice but there were those who were dead set against anyone who didn't actually teach their own kids at home calling themselves homeschoolers.

As far as educational choices goes, I agree with you. People should be able to choose. But legally speaking there are differences and some of these choices aren't homeschooling legally but are a branch of public schools. And I have had actual local government leaders tell me that the cyber schools or public school "homeschool " programs (both legally under public schooling) were my only legal options. Fortunately I knew better.

 

So people can self describe themselves as homeschoolers but as someone upthread says, if you are comparing legal requirements for paperwork, testing or diplomas then you can be talking apples and oranges. And especially for high school, that matters a lot.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't have a philosophy. I use what works. Sometimes I have to make my own curriculum, sometimes I use purchased curriculum, and sometimes I outsource online (hello, Latin). We do not do any co-ops and we are not part of a homeschool group of any kind. We have a large somehow publicly-funded homeschool "center" that not only has classes of all kinds but also provides funding to homeschool families for all kinds of things like DE, extracurricular activities, and curriculum. There are park days. I am simply not interested in any of these things. I do what I do with occasional advice and reviews from people on this board. I don't want interference nor do I want to be tied down to a schedule and/or rules. No one asks for my advice either. Dd's (and my) social groups have nothing to do with homeschooling. All of dd's friends go to traditional school. Aside from talking about life in general, homeschooling never comes up. My dd is in high school now and is largely self-learning with a great deal of scaffolding by me. I don't need someone to tell me if that is OK or part of an approved philosophy. I do it because it works for us

(I accidentally cut off the last quoted sentence on my phone. I am not trying to change your words. )

 

The research on educational philosophy comment (with the winky) was a joke based on "the hallmarks of being old school ". Back in the day we would have called your philosophy "eclectic ".

[Rosika]

I am so grateful to the true pioneers of the homeschooling movement. 

 

Someone posted earlier about having to hide the kids from the postman*, because homeschooling was illegal. It's INSANE how far the movement has come since those early days, and how much the face of homeschooling has changed. It's CRAZY to think how fast the movement has continued to evolve to this very day. It's like many people on this thread remember a sweet spot in the timeline where homeschooling was accepted but still not fully on the mainstream radar. That was probably around the time I began homeschooling (2003).

 

I feel like the poster who said that even though I've been at this for 14 years, and even when local people ask me for advice, I'm confused and flattered because I, too, feel like I just wing it every day of every year. I'm uncomfortable when newer homeschoolers approach me because I have no clue how we've made it this far, and even less of a clue on how to mentor them. All I can offer is emotional support and a standing park date! 

 

 

*Sidenote - not to make light of the very real challenges and risks taken by those homeschooling pioneers, but can you imagine if homeschooling was still illegal in the States now that we have Amazon Prime??! I swear my kids would have to do school in the bathtubs, hidden in the bathrooms, with me sliding meals under the door, considering how many deliveries we get throughout any given school day!  :willy_nilly:

[Arcadia]

I have nothing against cyber charters. I used one in 2006 for one child and in 2007 for another child. But I have pretty much nothing to offer a "cyber schooler by circumstance", and wound up feeling like a big dope wasting everyone's time. She was looking for a way to do school without sending her kids to school, which I think is great. (BTDT.) But my experience on that front is outdated and no longer has anything to do with how I've been homeschooling for years. She didn't need to hear anything about the resources I use to cultivate each kid's curriculum and methods, tailor to their needs and interests, and create a lifestyle instead of a schooling method! :o Oops.

Here even cyberschoolers afterschool/supplement so they also use curriculum targeted for homeschoolers.

 

When my kids were with the k12 cyber school, they did AoPS for math but did all the school’s math chapter tests and semester exams. They also completed the vocabulary workbook before school started and then did Word Within the Word and Caesar’s English for enrichment.

[Crimson Wife]

I’m 34 but fit more the profile of an old-schooler. Ymmv.

 

What I see in my small bubble of irl Catholic hsing friends is that the push for more co-ops is being driven by the increasing popularity of classical education. Most of the older moms I know did Seton or were pretty unschooly.  

 

This is what makes no sense to me. The author of the original Classical Catholic approach "how to" book had the phrase Designing Your Own as part of the title.

 

Just because some tutorial program figured out a way to make oodles of money off of the classical approach does NOT mean classical education is about doing co-ops.  :thumbdown: 

[Lady Florida.]

As far as educational choices goes, I agree with you. People should be able to choose. But legally speaking there are differences and some of these choices aren't homeschooling legally but are a branch of public schools. And I have had actual local government leaders tell me that the cyber schools or public school "homeschool " programs (both legally under public schooling) were my only legal options. Fortunately I knew better.

 

So people can self describe themselves as homeschoolers but as someone upthread says, if you are comparing legal requirements for paperwork, testing or diplomas then you can be talking apples and oranges. And especially for high school, that matters a lot.

 

Well yes, and it's going to be different depending on your state. In Florida if you register with your county you're a homeschooler even if you outsource everything or enroll your child in all online classes, and don't teach anything. Legally you just have to oversee your child's education. OTOH, there's no such thing as an umbrella school according to my state. Florida considers them private schools so if you sign up with an umbrella school and do all of the teaching at home with homemade curriculum your child is still not legally a homeschooler. He's a private school student. And is it California that calls all homeschools private schools? I think that's right but don't want to look it up right now. So yes, legally the labels differ. 

 

However, in my post it was the labels that old school homeschoolers didn't like. The example of someone signed up with the county as a homeschooler but outsourcing everything was what they were against. They didn't want it to be called homeschooling if the parent wasn't actually doing at least most of the teaching. Obviously they lost that battle but it was still being fought among the veterans when I was a new homeschool mom.

[Bluegoat]

Right. People rarely stay involved with public schools or scouting or dance or you name it, once their kids move on. There's nothing wrong with moving on to the next phase of life. Those who do choose to stay involved should also stay up to date on changes in homeschooling or their advice won't be useful.

 

 

 

This. This I think, is the biggest change. In the past you needed to talk to veterans and go in person to conventions (though I've never been to a big convention) because that was how information was disseminated. The internet, as we know, has changed many things. Homeschoooling is one of those things.

 

 

I remember the homeschool wars, similar to mommy wars. Those who outsourced or did online schools shouldn't call themselves homeschoolers, is how the argument went. They'll dilute the meaning of the word, they said. Personally I was an advocate of choice but there were those who were dead set against anyone who didn't actually teach their own kids at home calling themselves homeschoolers.

 

I think there is an argument to be made that some types or levels of outsourcing aren't homeschooling.  I don't think it matters at a personal level, but what I wonder about is in terms of things like accreditation.  Often, there are some guidelines or rules in place for private schools, but co-ops and such largely seem to dodge these, even when they are carrying a lot of the land for educating those kids. 

 

It sometimes seems to me there may be reason to consider that sort of thing in a different category than homeschooling, for the purposes of administration and the law.

[Bluegoat]

This is what makes no sense to me. The author of the original Classical Catholic approach "how to" book had the phrase Designing Your Own as part of the title.

 

Just because some tutorial program figured out a way to make oodles of money off of the classical approach does NOT mean classical education is about doing co-ops.  :thumbdown:

 

Sure.  But philosophically classical education isn't particularly tied to homeschooling.  Nor is Catholic education - if anything, it has quite a long tradition of church based schooling.

[Rosika]

This is what makes no sense to me. The author of the original Classical Catholic approach "how to" book had the phrase Designing Your Own as part of the title.

 

Just because some tutorial program figured out a way to make oodles of money off of the classical approach does NOT mean classical education is about doing co-ops.  :thumbdown:

 

I wish that book were more commonly known. I pulled it off of the shelf for two friends who were running a Schola Rosa co-op but didn't find it to be rigorous enough. They hadn't heard of the book before, nor of the author!! They had been to IHM conferences, and had at least passing familiarity with MODG. They also got most of their homeschool research and information from the internet - Pinterest and FB. Maybe that's the difference? 

 

So now when I see the book cheap at used bookstores, I buy it. I've passed out about six copies in the past two years. The group that started out doing Schola Rosa has now disbanded, with half of the families doing their own style of the DYOCC at home and meeting up for field trips ... while the other half still meets weekly for CM style classes. 

 

It was so interesting to see it pan out. I'm glad there is a product to fill the need for families who (for whatever reason can't or won't DYO) but like you, I'm surprised at how many families equate classical with co-op or university models. 

[Crimson Wife]

Sure.  But philosophically classical education isn't particularly tied to homeschooling.  Nor is Catholic education - if anything, it has quite a long tradition of church based schooling.

 

Yes, Kolbe has a B&M school not super-far from where I live (in Napa so I hope none of their families have lost their homes in the awful wildfires).

 

I was responding to the younger HSer fretting about how to do classical without a co-op. That's simple- read the Laura Berquist book listed, check out the curriculum lists for Kolbe and Angelicum, and also Maureen Wittmann has an excellent book called For the Love of Literature: Teaching Core Subjects with Literature that I've found very helpful over the years.

[Arcadia]

And is it California that calls all homeschools private schools? I think that's right but don't want to look it up right now. So yes, legally the labels differ.

In California, homeschoolers just file the Private School Affidavit in September/October but the filing system is open all academic year. So late filing is still accepted.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, Kolbe has a B&M school not super-far from where I live (in Napa so I hope none of their families have lost their homes in the awful wildfires).

 

I was responding to the younger HSer fretting about how to do classical without a co-op. That's simple- read the Laura Berquist book listed, check out the curriculum lists for Kolbe and Angelicum, and also Maureen Wittmann has an excellent book called For the Love of Literature: Teaching Core Subjects with Literature that I've found very helpful over the years.

 

Yes, it can certainly be done.  In a way, what I've seen of co-ops is that they are kind of a bait and switch - it looks like it will be better than doing it yourself, but mostly it doesn't turn out that way.

 

OTOH, over the years I've seen even classical homeschoolers become less enthusiastic over some elements - like Latin - mainly because even with the materials meant to be used at home, it became clear over time that it is rather difficult to make some subjects worthwhile that way.  Not many parents manage to teach kids to fluency in a language they don't  know, even one like Latin, and without that, you kind of lose one of the major benefits of spending all those hours on that topic.

[HS Mom in NC]

 

 

I remember the homeschool wars, similar to mommy wars. Those who outsourced or did online schools shouldn't call themselves homeschoolers, is how the argument went. They'll dilute the meaning of the word, they said. Personally I was an advocate of choice but there were those who were dead set against anyone who didn't actually teach their own kids at home calling themselves homeschoolers.

Don't assume everyone involved in that conversation is being pedantic and annoying.  There good reasons in many situations why the distinction matters. In some states, it's legally defined that online charter school is public school. The kids are registered public school kids.  That means set schedules, mandatory testing, no content control, etc.  We had a legal problem here when they first came out that they labeled themselves as homeschooling when advertising, but legally weren't.  Some newbies signed up to later be shocked that they were subject to attendance laws and mandatory testing because the terminology wasn't being clarified.  That many not be the case where you are, but it's the case other places and has caused actual problems.  Now they advertise as public school at home.  No more confusion.

 

The other reason some people do so is to keep people who deal with the same issues together.  When someone chooses none of the content, doesn't set the schedule, does little no instruction, preps for mandatory state tests, sits a kid at the computer for all subjects, they have little to contribute to a support group style gathering where people talk about choosing content in keeping with their educational philosophy, trying different teaching techniques, determining a schedule, incorporating hands on and out of the house enrichment activities, integrating subjects, translating what you're doing at home into a transcript, answering questions about how they think they can teach a kid when they don't have teacher certification, etc.  It's not unusual to create support groups specific to a person's daily needs, and the needs of someone doing school online are different than the needs of someone doing it themselves in part or in whole.  So, it's not unusual for some homeschool groups to identify themselves as open or closed to the online crowd.  At mine there is a guided 30-40 minute discussion on a topics that would fall into the DIY category. every. time.  There's guest speaker that covers some DIY topic. every. time. The email list covers a question of the week that's DIY. Online schoolers wouldn't get anything out of that nor could they contribute to it. Some are more social and educational environment is irrelevant. Some are a mix. We don't get in a dither about single parent support groups and insist they open up to married couples because hey, married couples are parenting too.

 

It's normal in any language to use different words to distinguish between different things. When we use the term homeschooler these days people have to specify what they mean in some situations.  If we simply had different terms for each different option, it would solve legal problems for everyone because they could each be specified and protected.  I'm someone who does outsource and when I talk about homeschooling I simply say, "I homeschool everything but math.  I outsource that."  Why?  Because when you own it and name it matter of factly or cheerfully you convey that it's normalized.  It's perfectly OK to outsource things, so why are people upset about pointing it out?  If you want to live in a world where more options are acceptable, then don't go around being upset when people point out different options.

[Guest]

I believe Homeschool Mom in AZ was referring to the We Stand for Homeschooling statement and resolution. You can read the text here:

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/925511/posts

 

and I've found it on other sites that are probably a bit too far right for the Hive not to consider wackadoodle.

 

This is Mary Griffith's rant on why she didn't sign it:

 

https://marygriffith.net/rants-essays/why-i-will-not-sign-the-we-stand-for-homeschooling-statement-and-resolution/

 

and I have never tried to hide the fact that I did sign it, asked friends and family members to sign it, and am not ashamed of the fact that I signed it.

 

The people who were most victimized are the ones who cannot see how they were victimized. Ity's not fun to look at any more than it is to be demonized.

 

You won. We lost. Sore losers don't accomplish anything and just make themselves look stupid.

 

A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, but "independent" is a stupid adjective to try to turn into a noun. Can I just call myself IEF instead and high five you when you pull your kid out of PS and enroll him in Homeschool instead of punishing him for getting an F on an assignment he completed on paper because proprietary software applications are against his ethical philosophy of life?

 

Thanks again, Homeschool Mom in AZ; your objectivity is greatly appreciated.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Guest

[Crimson Wife]

 

OTOH, over the years I've seen even classical homeschoolers become less enthusiastic over some elements - like Latin - mainly because even with the materials meant to be used at home, it became clear over time that it is rather difficult to make some subjects worthwhile that way.  Not many parents manage to teach kids to fluency in a language they don't  know, even one like Latin, and without that, you kind of lose one of the major benefits of spending all those hours on that topic.

 

I gave up on Latin after neither of my HSed kids wanted to learn it. I do insist on learning the Latin (and Greek) roots since that helps with English vocabulary but beyond that I've allowed them to choose a modern FL.

 

I never did find making classical languages the center of our HS a la LCC to be appealing, but I am disappointed that we didn't get further with Latin since I had studied it for 3 years in H.S.

[HS Mom in NC]

I believe Homeschool Mom in AZ was referring to the We Stand for Homeschooling statement and resolution. You can read the text here:

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/925511/posts

 

 

No, I had never heard of the We Stand for Homeschooling statement and resolution before you posted it.

[Guest]

 

No, I had never heard of the We Stand for Homeschooling statement and resolution before you posted it.

 

 

It's the third controversy down here:

 

https://a2zhomeschooling.com/thoughts_opinions_home_school/home_school_controversies/

 

and there's a ton more about it in the HEM archives on the Wayback Machine.

 

I almost wish I could just be your unpaid research monkey today instead of closing this laptop and independenting the miracle against-all-odds caboose baby. ;)

[Joyofsixreboot]

I can only speak to my area but almost all HS families I know use Abeka or Sonlight. They are very "relaxed" and feel that if a year stretches over a year and a half that's fine. By middle school most use Teaching Textbooks because they doubt their own higher math skills. In my rural area outsourcing is difficult.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Ms.Ivy]

This is a long thread and I kind of skimmed through it, but I wanted to mention the changes I have seen. One is that homeschooling went from a being primarily a rejection of state-controlled schooling, to being more simply an option in a broader school choice movement. (Public charters in CA for example). Another thing, which is totally weird to me, is when younger moms talk about how they are homeschooling their two-year-olds instead of sending the tots to daycare. And why are daycares for toddlers called schools now? I feel so out of touch with culture now.

[Arcadia]

Another thing, which is totally weird to me, is when younger moms talk about how they are homeschooling their two-year-olds instead of sending the tots to daycare. And why are daycares for toddlers called schools now? I feel so out of touch with culture now.

My brother’s wife speaks and understands a limited amount of English and my brother works shifts. So my niece went to a playschool since she was 2 for a few hours a day to learn conversational English, the alphabet, sing nursery rhymes and listen to the preschool teacher read a simple story. It includes play time and tea break.

 

My girl friend works and choose to send her children to a dual immersion daycare which teaches conversational English and Chinese from two years old and some reading and handwriting from three years old.

 

It is what people locally tend to describe as academic based daycare versus a play based daycare. A play based daycare does teach too but less of a sit down style learning.

 

My oldest did not like hands on style of learning and does much better indoors than outdoors (high chance he has mild tree and ragweed allergy). He went to an academic preschool because it fits his personality and needs. When the preschool was too slow for him, we did school at home.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I haven't read beyond the first page, but I'll share my .02 anyway.  I can't say that I was completely old-school because I loved the support of park-days (which don't seem to exist anymore) and I liked an occasional outside class, usually more like a 4-week limited subject class, as an enrichment, and I loved our book clubs.  I did form a few small co-ops ... just a few families to get together a couple of times a month to do things like hands-on things that I might not get around to if it is just for us.  I needed the social time as much as my kids.  I liked the accountability of getting our work done so that we could contribute to our clubs.  We tried the new local co-op when it first started but we didn't like it.  To me, it seemed like it was so dumbed down and, from a social and behavior aspect, it seemed like school.  We did outsource quite a bit for high school because it served my kids better.  For one, they are so much smarter than me and surpassed what I felt I could teach well.  Not that I am an academic slouch or anything ... I have a B.S. in Math  But I felt my kids deserved more than mom trying to stay a couple of chapters ahead in every subject while battling an auto-immune disorder and trying to help elderly parents.  My kids did better with outside deadlines, with instructors who were knowledgeable and passionate in their fields and able to add something rich from their experience.  Adding a few college classes at 15 were a much better fit for them academically.  This way, I could be the counselor that I needed to be and teach a few subjects.  

 

The big change I have seen in homeschooling is demand for people to do everything for them.  When I started out over 20 years ago, everyone I know had a can-do attitude.  If we didn't see something that we wanted for our kids, we built it.  I often asked to sit in on an ongoing club to see how they did things so that I could learn and then put my own stamp on things.   But these days, with a few exceptions, I don't really see that. 

 

"I want to join your science club (with my child who is 3 years the advertised age range) and I just want to drop off my kid.  Too young?  No room?  But what am I supposed to do now?  I couldn't possibly form my own." 

 

"I'm interested in your parent-child book club.  But you need to get rid of this book because it offends my "Christian" sensibilities.  Oh, I really don't have time to read all of these books myself."   

 

I also see the demand for nearly-free curriculum that does everything for them that doesn't require that time-consuming parental involvement ... for first-graders.  Don't get me started on "rigorous" curriculum demands for preschoolers.  What happened to read alouds and play?  

[EMS83]

Re. definitions.  I  went to a one-room schoolhouse going up.  We had 7 kids in all six grades.  It was organized by parents but we had a paid teacher.  I never once have said that I was homeschooled.  In the 60's (when I started school) it wasn't considered homeschooling.  But now there are kids I know who are homeschooled who go to what I would have considered huge schools that are organized by parents and even have paid teachers.  I don't have a problem with it.  It's just that the definition has changed so terribly much.  And when someone says "oh, you should have so much in common" and stick me at a table with someone who homeschools in such a radically different way, well, we don't really have that in common.  I'm a good conversationalist and can find pets, sports or other things in common but our style of homeschooling isn't it. 

 

I haven't finished the thread but I just had to stop and say how much I hate it when people do that. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by CES2005

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I haven't finished the thread but I just had to stop and say how much I hate it when people do that.

Agreed.

 

I'm actually avoiding an elderly friend because she keeps introducing me as Tibbie-who-Hs'ed-all-those-boys-isn't-that-amazing. Which would be fine except that our shared area of interest is the area I'm breaking into as a post-hs'ing career where I need to network. Also, the people are taken aback at that intro. Homeschool, here, means Christian fanatic which is soooo the wrong tone for my agenda.

[FaithManor]

Agreed.

 

I'm actually avoiding an elderly friend because she keeps introducing me as Tibbie-who-Hs'ed-all-those-boys-isn't-that-amazing. Which would be fine except that our shared area of interest is the area I'm breaking into as a post-hs'ing career where I need to network. Also, the people are taken aback at that intro. Homeschool, here, means Christian fanatic which is soooo the wrong tone for my agenda.

This.

 

Where I am working part time now, it is vitally important that this is NOT how I am introduced or the focus of discussing my skill set. This means keeping my mom and mother in law far away from the co-workers and potential,future colleagues.

Edited October 16, 2017 by FaithManor

[EMS83]

Just to be clear for my slow self: "outsourcing" means someone else teaching/facilitating/calling the shots? As in, tutor, DE, co-op, etc.?

 

Do things like Great Courses or published curicula count?

 

And FWIW the first thing I tell inquirers is it's nothing like school, because it doesn't have to be! Unless you really want it to be. Those who are serious, I advise them to deschool.

[Hunter]

Almost all oldschoolers HOMEschooled. Now the majority homeSCHOOL and consider most HOMEschoolers to be negligent. The majority of modern homeSCHOOLERS reject the Supreme Court bestowed rights of parents to rear their children in their own culture. Other homeSCHOOLERS are more likely to report a HOMEschooling family to CPS than the general public.

 

Families knew WHY they were HOMEschooling. Their curriculum choices, when they had any, were a natural extension of their HOME and a reflection of their culture, lifestyle and beliefs. When there was no curriculum, they were able to create their own from what was plentiful in their environment, as their reason to homeschool was to REINFORCE their culture, not escape from it in an attempt at upward mobility.

 

The academic success of early homeschooling was a surprise and not the goal. Many parents had resigned themselves to an inferior academic education to focus on what they thought was more important. When many of the children were successful at upward mobility and moved away from their culture, we got a lot of disappointed parents and a bunch of resources to try and prevent that.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Hunter

[Dmmetler]

Just to be clear for my slow self: "outsourcing" means someone else teaching/facilitating/calling the shots? As in, tutor, DE, co-op, etc.?

 

Do things like Great Courses or published curicula count?

 

And FWIW the first thing I tell inquirers is it's nothing like school, because it doesn't have to be! Unless you really want it to be. Those who are serious, I advise them to deschool.

For me, Outsourcing is things like DD's concurrent enrollment college classes. I have no control whatsoever. Not over books, assignments, grades...nothing. It's 180 degrees from homeschooling when I handled everything. Ultimately, I have to trust DD to direct her education and the staff at the college to do their jobs.

 

Until DD started concurrent college, I didn't have any subjects that I wasn't calling the shots. Not even those that she did a regular meeting with other homeschoolers for discussion or to do a science project or whatever, because I was the one in control of the materials, assignments, and grades. That outside meeting/group was one resource among many. And usually I was the one organizing it, because DD wanted people to discuss that book or whatever with.

[TravelingChris]

I started homeschooling in 1994 and graduated my youngest in 2015. We were going to book clubs, park days, field trips, special classes from the get go. My son was doing math with epgy online in the later 90s. We moved a lot and had different groups doing different things in all the places.

Interesting about whether we have anything to offer newcomers. Today I was talking with a friendly acquaintance about her son. He is currently in an expensive private school right in my neighborhood. The school.hss two campuses, What turns out to be a high school very close to me and what turns out to be K-8 a bit further. I had thought the school by me was 7-12. Her son is in 8th grade and I asked whether he was going to the other campus next year. She replied that she isn't sure they can managed the even higher cost of the high school. I asked what school were they considering- she then said homeschooling is one because she doesn't want him to be getting fundamentalist education which I guess is most of th he other private schools around here. She was interested in learning more about homeschooling in the area. I straight out told her coops, classes, and later DE is available.

I didn't ask who would homeschool him because I was going to somewhere but invited her to come to my house sometime.

 

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[Lady Florida.]

We did a lot of stuff outside the home - park days, field trips, book clubs, nature clubs, and more. It was the actual school work that was done at home and done from the point of our homeschool philosophy. My favorite book throughout our homeschool years was Rebecca Rupp's Home Learning Year by Year. It was a how to design your own curriculum book and was written with secular homeschoolers in mind. That book looked well worn by the time I got rid of it.

[LT_Editor_Gail]

We are in southern California, I would say most here go through a charter. We are fully independent, and do most things ourselves. That said, I do buy some curriculum because it makes sense to do so, science, math, etc. It actually gives me the time I want with my kids, so we choose curriculum and classes carefully.

 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[happybeachbum]

I've found that when there is lack of confidence and then a solution it's probably some entity trying to make a buck. From Women's magazines (online and off) to online schools etc.

[jewellsmommy]

 I started home schooling in 2007 (not that much of the schooling part because it was kindergarten), but I loved researching all of the philosophies and methods and curricula! I enjoy teaching in general.

 

We tried a co-op 2 years later because I had a friend who went to one and was insistent that it we try it. The ladies were great, and it was fine academically. I quickly discovered, however, just how much of a control freak I was  :blush:  . We stuck it out for a couple of years, but the only classes (except PE) that dd took were the ones I taught. I finally figured out that I could leave the co-op and just do what I wanted at home with a lot less work than what I was putting on myself. I enjoyed teaching a room full of kids, but didn't enjoy that there was so much tailoring I couldn't do with dd because I was teaching a room full.

 

I am much happier doing everything my way (and my dd's way), without committee approval, or having to concern myself with the needs of a roomful of other people's children. ...Nothing against co-ops or the people who use them, it really is just me.  :lol:  

 

 

[vonbon]

On 10/14/2017 at 3:24 PM, StellaM said:

Yep. It is rough, if you don't have the cash.

It was never like that when I first started. Activities were free or low cost, so all could partipate if they wanted to. $$ was not a barrier in the same way it is now.

I felt the local community was more cohesive, and empowered - we were producers, not just consumers. I do feel the move to buying in education and socialisation from the youngest levels is a loss to cohesion and creativity.

I wonder what I would do if I had the $$ now. I'd probably give up and pay up. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I guess. 

 

While many "oldschoolers" (not even sure there's a precise definition here) dismiss the whole charter school / co-op, group learning concept, what-have-you-that's-not-kitchen-table... My experience - in my specific locale (rural, small town, limited job opportunities being created / dying industry) - is that there is a segment of highly-motivated, sacrificial parents who are doing whatever they can do to homeschool on a really limited budget. 

I guess, by many here in this thread, they'd be labeled as: "newbies" (starting now or within the last 5 years), "looking for free stuff", "doing little DIY", etc. But what I see beyond that (again, personal and up-close experience in that I worked with them / their children on a regular basis - not just anecdotal), is that there's a pretty big divide: either people "have" and can enroll their children in every cool sport and activity out there for social contact, pay for tutoring, world-school, order whatever expensive curriculum they want to hop to at the moment...

And there are those who "have not", who are strapped to make ends meet, maybe work part-time, need the support of some charter school resources (basic curriculum, teacher experience, etc.), putting available $ into the basics of supporting a family.  There are very few cheap / free options for these newbies to become established or to be "sheltered" as they try to get a foothold.  And while, yes, it would be great if they could create those communities themselves (like the oldschoolers were forced to do), it seems they're already pushed to their limits just to provide and get school done.  I'm describing a segment of new homeschoolers who are not looking for "free/cheap/easy" because they're lazy or entitled, but who are looking for free/cheap, because that's the only way they're going to be able to homeschool.  They are also a segment of people who are crunched for time (like everyone else), so it's wise that they don't waste time reinventing the wheel and, instead, put that energy into working with LD issues or providing for their families.

My hunch is that many of these "have nots" would just not have homeschooled in the past, period.  Their kids might have been under-served in the local public school system (a percentage are proactively dealing with LDs) or they might have just muddled through.  And I'm not suggesting that "oldschoolers" were all "haves"; I know many (most?) were not wealthy and sacrificed much to homeschool and create curriculum.  Despite not being able to "pay-to-play" or to curriculum hop / buy the new-fangled stuff out there, these newbies are working hard to find a good fit academically for their children.  It's not an easy spot. 

I am describing many families I can think of, off the top of my head, who are making an earnest attempt to do the best they can for their kids, though not bringing many material resources to the table.  The pay-to-play way of today makes it very hard on them to take part socially.  I fear many will not persevere.  The charter school model, at least where I live, offers a way to work with others while being open to the public - for free.  

In those folks' defense (and I'm talking about dozens of families here locally, not just a handful), I'd like to say, "Throw them a bone!"  They're using charters, co-ops, pre-made curriculum, etc., but I don't see them necessarily abusing the homeschooling foundations of yesteryear.  I'm glad they're taking the options they have and making something of them vs. letting their kids flounder in a system that's not working for them.  It may not be the Ideal, but it's better than the alternative.  What would you prefer?  

I probably didn't get enough sleep last night and shouldn't even post this.  It's kind of vent-y; I do apologize. 

I am a little sick of the entitled tone in some of these threads.  Be thankful for what you have.  Some of us have much; some of us have little.  We all have the freedom and free will to make the most of what we have.  Some (not all) of that freedom was secured by those oldschoolers of yesteryear, and, for them, I'm thankful.  But to those of you who look down your nose at people who don't follow your exact path up the mountain...ugh.  Reach down and help those newbies up--at least those who are open and searching.  Don't just lump them together and dismiss them as a whole.  Try not to become jaded by snippets of conversations and awkward responses you get from people who are starting out.  There are plenty of people in the world who are users; just as many old as new, just as many users who are wealthy as those who are poor, so those types are always going to suck time / energy out of any community or willing body. 

I hope all of you "oldies" (and at year #7, I consider myself pretty "unseasoned"; doing a lot with an oldschool approach) will continue to open your hearts and share your passion and what you've gleaned with the new generations coming into homeschooling*.  I have gotten so much from the people (especially veterans) on these boards and I'm thankful for all the wisdom that's been made available here.  The uphill trudge would have been much harder without it; my family and I have benefited.  If ya'll just close your doors because of a segment that's entitled, lazy, etc....what a loss for the world!

*However "homeschooling" is being defined...🙄😏

Edited November 15, 2019 by vonbon
Clarity

[Katy]

Zombie thread