s/o "girls can't do hard stuff"

[SKL]

Do you think the current generation of girls hears this?

 

I feel like they don't.  My kids have been in co-ed martial arts, science programs, etc. and I don't get the impression they are hearing or internalizing a "girls can't" message.  I'm 50 years old, so I remember those messages - when I was a kid, it was considered somewhat remarkable when a girl could do traditional boy activities.  I recall a commercial about a girl delivering newspapers, which was supposed to be surprising.  I recall conversations with my brothers about the relative abilities of boys and girls.  I think a lot has changed.

 

Do you feel girls still hear those old messages?

[regentrude]

Yes.

Especially when it comes to math and science. 

[bolt.]

Mine seem not to. I think they have faded.

[Guest]

Not anywhere near how it used to be.

[kiana]

Not in those words, but yes. 

 

You're pretty strong ... for a girl.

You're pretty good at math ... for a girl. 

[zoobie]

Usually less in your face, but yes. We are still told to be quiet and let the men talk. "Like a girl" is still an insult.

 

Yesterday on nextdoor (neighborhood website that is pretty entertaining sometimes with all the odd postings), someone wanted strong young men to help unload food at a food bank. A woman commented (very politely) asking whether anyone was welcome to volunteer and mansplaining ensued.

[marbel]

What do you mean by "hard stuff?"  

 

My kids see women doing a lot of things that used to be traditionally male.   Most of the medical professionals we see are female (including the vet).  All my son's instructors at the community college so far have been female.  There are female firefighters and EMTs at the fire station where my son volunteers.  We know female engineers and other women involved in science.  

 

Just an example: my kids went through orthodontics at a big university dental school. We were there for about 5 years between the 2 kids.  Every new school year there was a poster up, with photos of the new resident orthodontists (who had been dentists and were moving into the specialty).  The first year, it was probably 50/50 male/female.  Every year the  number of females increased. I think the last year we were there, there was 1 male, 7 females. 

 

Now it's true that there are no female welders at the shop where my son works.  

 

ETA: Are you talking about physically hard stuff?  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by marbel

[rocassie]

I haven't heard "girls can't...", but I have heard "girls don't...." and every time it has come from men with just sons or boys.  

 

My oldest is 10 and there is a neighbor boy just a month older than her.  He many times would say to my DD, "but girls don't do..." when she would make suggestions of things to do like climb trees, hunt for bugs, dig in the dirt, and even board games.  Thankfully my DD is outspoken and fairly comfortable in her skin so her usually response is, "well I'm a girl and I like....so who ever told you that is wrong."

 

I don't hear it as often as I did when I was little, but truthfully I didn't hear it all that much growing up either.  It was often from peers rather than adults.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I was apparently oblivious to that message. 

[historically accurate]

Yes. It is more subtle sometimes.

 

I have had to teach my girls to speak up in groups (especially in science classes or their robotics team) to say, "Please don't interrupt me."  Boys try to take over by talking over them and/or ignoring their contributions, and the leaders tend to let them.

 

One of mine is a great chess player; one tags along in tournaments. They've both had comments of "Oh, I didn't know girls played chess." or "I can beat a girl! This will be easy." One of their male opponents sobbed after my dd beat him in about 10-12 moves - he kept telling his father "I was beat  - by a girl, a girl!" I didn't stick around to see what Dad had to say.

 

One that still irritates me years later but may not fit exactly to the topic of "hard stuff". I asked at a parent's get-together for homeschoolers for book suggestions for my dd who read many grade levels ahead. She wanted girl protagonists. I got a 20 minute lecture on how we shouldn't gender books - she should read both. She did, but she was looking for fairies, princesses, etc. at the moment. The next meeting or so, a different parent asked for male books because her (same-age) son wouldn't read a book with a female protagonist. The group happily discussed the topic for the remainder of the meeting. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by beckyjo

[Carrie12345]

My teenage daughters participate in male dominated activities.  They know girls can do anything, and know most people support them, but they're also very much aware that discrimination exists.

 

[Guest]

I don't hear it at all. I honestly didn't hear it growing up either. There was a pretty strong feminist vibe that I recall strongly throughout my Prime teen/early adulthood years. My dd hasn't encountered it that I've ever seen.

 

I will go against the grain and say I actually worry a lot more about the messages being targeted towards my son about how "fill in the blank negative here" men are than I do about anything targeted towards my daughter. I feel like there is an anti-boy paradigm creeping up.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I feel like there is an anti-boy paradigm creeping up.

 

I do too.  Boys are all rapists. 

[marbel]

I don't hear it at all. I honestly didn't hear it growing up either. There was a pretty strong feminist vibe that I recall strongly throughout my Prime teen/early adulthood years. My dd hasn't encountered it that I've ever seen.

 

I will go against the grain and say I actually worry a lot more about the messages being targeted towards my son about how "fill in the blank negative here" men are than I do about anything targeted towards my daughter. I feel like there is an anti-boy paradigm creeping up.

 

Agreed, absolutely.   

[Guest]

I feel like there is an anti-boy paradigm creeping up.

As the mother of six boys, I absolutely agree with this.

[Paige]

It probably depends on who you interact with and what part of the country you live in to some extent. I think the message is still there but weaker than it has been in the past. For some girls, the message is stronger than it is for others. 

[emmaluv+2more]

Mostly in religious organizations. Not necessarily referring to "hard stuff", but girls are definitely still being told "they can't" in all sorts of ways in many church settings.

 

Otherwise, we mainly encounter shock. "YOU did that?" Or "Wow!" I don't recall hearing anything blatant in many years, although I could have just learned to tune it all out.

[Carrie12345]

I do too.  Boys are all rapists. 

 

That's not what I see.

 

I DO see more people speaking out against rape, which males happen to be much more responsible for than females.  I've never in my life seen anyone say that all males are rapists.

[Xahm]

I think there is an extremism in messaging about boys. A little boy sitting quietly and playing with a marble run gets "amazing! Look at the genius future engineer!" A boy running around with a stick at the playground is a danger:"if you don't get him under control now, think of how it will be in ten years!" They seem to get classified as either amazing or problems a significant percentage of the time. A little girl is more likely to be described in milder terms: sweet or feisty.

This situation both benefits boys the most and hurts boys the most. Girls who would otherwise shine are also hurt, while girls who avoid the"bad" label benefit.

This is all based on my limited observations and may be bunk.

[Paige]

I want to add, that I didn't hear that message much when I was a kid, but in my own circles, the message is actually increasing. 

 

I've had to run interference against my girls' grandmothers on both sides who have told them they can't or shouldn't do things because they are girls. They've been told they shouldn't expect to win against boys in their mixed sparring matches for martial arts. Which is ridiculous because girls win all the time. They've been told they'll never be as good as their brother. 

 

They've been told they need to look pretty.

 

And they've been told they need to let the men fill their plates first at dinner because they need more than us females. 

 

It's a disturbing trend, almost a backlash, in my circles. I did not experience this from the same people when I was a kid.

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's not what I see.

 

I DO see more people speaking out against rape, which males happen to be much more responsible for than females.  I've never in my life seen anyone say that all males are rapists.

 

I don't know. I feel there is this vibe where boys can't be trusted, they only want one thing, they can't control themselves, etc.  Many parents in my experiences don't want their daughters to be friends with boys.  No play dates with boys.  They've flat out said this to me. 

 

Growing up I only had a sister and most of my family members were female.  I only knew that POV really.  Now the tables are turned and I'm the odd female out in my family.  I'm surrounded by only males.  Things are a lot different for males than I assumed.  My boys are also only into activities dominated by females (drama, choir, dance) and they endure attitudes and discrimination for that too.  Not terrible amounts no.  But I never endured terrible amounts of discrimination as a female either.  I won't say zero, but not that much. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I want to add, that I didn't hear that message much when I was a kid, but in my own circles, the message is actually increasing. 

 

I've had to run interference against my girls' grandmothers on both sides who have told them they can't or shouldn't do things because they are girls. They've been told they shouldn't expect to win against boys in their mixed sparring matches for martial arts. Which is ridiculous because girls win all the time. They've been told they'll never be as good as their brother. 

 

They've been told they need to look pretty.

 

And they've been told they need to let the men fill their plates first at dinner because they need more than us females. 

 

It's a disturbing trend, almost a backlash, in my circles. I did not experience this from the same people when I was a kid.

 

Oh yeah I did get the message "girls need to be pretty".  That was my mother's message.  I once asked her when I was older why she was so into her looks (much to her dismay I was not).  She said that was all she had going for her.  Super.... :confused1: 

 

But in general I'm pretty oblivious.  For example, I didn't know the culinary field was dominated by men.  DUH.  When I went to culinary school there was only one other woman in my class.  I'm exceptionally small and not once though did anyone give me flack for being a woman.  My employer, a male, did not either.  I worked right along side much larger men no problem.  They were never stupid towards me. 

[Paige]

I think there is an extremism in messaging about boys. A little boy sitting quietly and playing with a marble run gets "amazing! Look at the genius future engineer!" A boy running around with a stick at the playground is a danger:"if you don't get him under control now, think of how it will be in ten years!" They seem to get classified as either amazing or problems a significant percentage of the time. A little girl is more likely to be described in milder terms: sweet or feisty.

This situation both benefits boys the most and hurts boys the most. Girls who would otherwise shine are also hurt, while girls who avoid the"bad" label benefit.

This is all based on my limited observations and may be bunk.

 

Or, a little boy playing quietly gets, "What's wrong with him? You are turning him into a girl."

 

I agree that it's hard to win with a boy. My nephew is very rambunctious and aggressive. He's out of control. (not my words- people say he's out of control)

 

My DS was quiet and sensitive. We heard that he's a sissy boy and needed to toughen up from the same people. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Paige

[Bluegoat]

I don't see much of that.  Far more I see messages that girls can do anything, are strong and so on.  Lots of rugged/intrepid female characters on tv and in books, too.

 

For a while one of my kids thought all doctors were women, despite the fact their granddad is a doctor.

 

 

I don't hear it at all. I honestly didn't hear it growing up either. There was a pretty strong feminist vibe that I recall strongly throughout my Prime teen/early adulthood years. My dd hasn't encountered it that I've ever seen.

I will go against the grain and say I actually worry a lot more about the messages being targeted towards my son about how "fill in the blank negative here" men are than I do about anything targeted towards my daughter. I feel like there is an anti-boy paradigm creeping up.

 

I also worry a lot more about the messages boys get.  And, about the attitude to what is sometimes called "traditional female occupations."  They seem to be almost despised at times, especially for girls.

[fairfarmhand]

I had three girls followed by a son.

 

We live on a farm. My girls don't get that message at all. They are required to help work cattle, drive trucks, pick up hay bales in the field, and cut grass. They do it because they are capable of it. They HATE a lot of it, but they do it.

 

And they see me do it too.

 

Farming cuts through this gender specific crap. If you read Laura Ingalls Wilder's essays she talks a lot about women and work. She talks about how in her society of the late 1800s-early 1900s one of the few ways a woman could work and earn equal to a man was on a farm. She worked hard, very hard, and frequently because of her husband's illnesses had to carry a heavy load of the "man's" work on their place.

 

So, my girls don;t view life that way, and in Christian homeschooling society they kind of sneer at the idea that women are fragile creatures in need of coddling. Anyone has been to our farm figures out pretty  quickly that my girls don't get a pass because of the x chromosome.

 

I remember one of my friends going "Wait....B mows grass?" (she has older boys and a younger girl my dds age) When I talked about my two big girls cutting the grass. It was like a big revelation that a girl could operate a mower. I've seen many other families with older boys operating in a very  gender specific division of labor. Girls do housework, boys do cars and outdoor labor.

 

My son will learn, like my daughters did, that everyone is capable of outdoor, physical labor as well as indoor cooking and cleanign.

Edited June 9, 2017 by fairfarmhand

[wintermom]

I never noticed or paid attention to the message that "girls can't..."  Both my grandmothers were first generation immigrants and farmer's wives, and both had to step in when either their husband died or their father was very ill. They never got the message that "girls can't" They just did what they had to do to keep their families alive. They plowed fields, opened a boarding house, sewed, and generally worked their butts off. They were admired by men and women around them, and those were the messages I heard growing up. 

 

I think the message to both boys and girls should be, "Life isn't easy and it requires work. If you feel entitled to get stuff without work, then don't whine when you don't get it. Neither girls nor boys are entitled just because of their gender."

[Carrie12345]

I don't know. I feel there is this vibe where boys can't be trusted, they only want one thing, they can't control themselves, etc.  Many parents in my experiences don't want their daughters to be friends with boys.  No play dates with boys.  They've flat out said this to me. 

 

 

As the mother of 3 boys and 2 girls, I do not want to tell my daughters to fear males or change their actions to limit their chances of being assaulted.  But statistics are what statistics are and they show that, as they get older, my daughters are/will be much more at risk than my sons.  And my daughters do spend a lot of time with grown men, in addition to their male peers.  I would never in a million years say "boys can't be trusted, they only want one thing, they can't control themselves, etc." but I have a responsibility to make them aware that a horrific number of women are assaulted by men through no fault of their own, so that they CAN be alert.  Because there IS a disgusting level of danger.  And it IS statistically significantly at the hands of males.

 

While I don't believe my own sons could ever be so sick and vicious, I do think it's also my responsibility to raise them to be aware of the statistics and the need for them to fight against rape culture within their gender so that, someday, women and girls don't have to be so fearful for their physical and emotional well being.

[kewb]

I don't think it is as prevalent as it used to be in the younger generation but it is still out there. Especially with the older generation.

[gardenmom5]

I have girls in stem.   No - I don't think they overtly hear the message - however I do think women do things that undermine girls.   (I also think there is a lot of undermining boys out there.  - look at how many boys enroll/graduate college compared to girls.  my son had an idiot of a new grad english teacher accuse him of plagiarism because "teenagers don't talk/write like that."  honestly - if he'd been a girl - I doubt she'd have accused him of it.  after <5minutes of listening to her ....  - the grammar errors and she was supposed to be an *english major*???? :svengo: she did eventually apologize.)  the sob males 1dd came across in tech - treated everyone outside their inner circles like carp.

  

I'm one who thinks telling a girl she's as good as a boy . . . is undermining.  after all, if you have to say it . . . (who are you trying to convince?)

 

I sent a message to my girls I expected them to aim high - becasue they're smart and should develop their abilities.  their gender was irrelevant.

 

I'm sure it can vary according to the part of the country you're in.

 

2dd was rather irked at her female 7th grade PE teacher who distracted her during the "arm hang" test so she dropped due to distraction - rather than fatigue. :glare:   dd was already over 100 seconds, but would have gone longer.  there were  very few boys in the school who went that long - and no girls.

 

1dd has been made really angry at women in tech conferences she's attended, and the way the women push tech on other women - whether they're interested in it or not.  

 

she is in a very very male dominated field, and just took a job over the tech dept (different, non-tech, company) from an incompetent male who is at least 15 years older than her. (tried to intimidate her by saying he's been in tech for 25 years.   :huh: :lol: :smilielol5: ."that's nice"  pat-pat-pat.)  it's a huge mess.  but she's having a blast and improved morale around the entire company.  she's being intellectually challenged - for one of the first times in her life.  she finds it energizing.

[Guest]

I majored in math in college and then went into the military as an aircraft maintenance officer.  I obviously missed the memo.  (LOL)

[mamaraby]

While I don't believe my own sons could ever be so sick and vicious, I do think it's also my responsibility to raise them to be aware of the statistics and the need for them to fight against rape culture within their gender so that, someday, women and girls don't have to be so fearful for their physical and emotional well being.

This, and also to teach all of my children the importance of consent. I have a son and two girls and I do think girls still get those messages. I do not think that my son faces those same pressures.

 

It isn't that males cannot be trusted. It's that culture and privilege works to protect them from having to take responsibility for their actions and behavior. As a result, *some* men do horrific things and *some* men and women excuse their behavior.

[Wheres Toto]

I don't hear it at all. I honestly didn't hear it growing up either. There was a pretty strong feminist vibe that I recall strongly throughout my Prime teen/early adulthood years. My dd hasn't encountered it that I've ever seen.

 

I will go against the grain and say I actually worry a lot more about the messages being targeted towards my son about how "fill in the blank negative here" men are than I do about anything targeted towards my daughter. I feel like there is an anti-boy paradigm creeping up.

 

I don't hear it too much around here and I do seem some overcompensating that seems to border on anti-boy.   I don't know if it's still bad in public schools, or in team sports, because we are not exposed to those arena very often.

 

Dd and ds both do Tai Kwan Do.  Dd is occasionally the only girl in their groups.  But she is also stronger and more physical than her brother.  This is just accepted as a fact around our house, one the kids came up with on their own (it is true, she's also much more interested in being physically active than he is).

 

Dh and I run a 4-H STEM club.  We have about 3 times as many girls as boys in our club, so we definitely don't see a bias against girls there.  Although maybe that's a sign that the girls feel unwelcome in STEM programs at their schools?   I taught afterschool robotics classes for a little while, and in 3 different classes the girls were outnumbered quite a bit.

 

I had a discussion while walking through Target one day with the kids.  Dd wanted new pj's and the girls selections were awful.  I asked her if she wanted to look in the boys section at pj pants, or the ladies section (she can wear an XS/S if I hem or put elastic in the bottom).  She chose the ladies section because "I'm more of a girly-girl than a tomboy".  Her brother than pipped up with "except when you beat up your brother!  You're not much of a girly-girl then!".  I then explained to both of them that being strong certainly doesn't mean you are not a girly-girl, and it is definitely possible to be both.  And then I said she shouldn't be beating up her brother outside of TKD sparring.  A couple women walking in front of us overheard and were in hysterics.

[EmseB]

I grew up in the 80s in a very you-can-do-whatever-you-set-your-mind-to culture.  Midwest, not at all progressive in the current sense, but there was never anyone telling me I couldn't or shouldn't do stuff because I'm a girl. Although my mom did ruin my dream to be a vet by telling me that in order to be a vet I'd be required to stick my fingers in animals' behinds.  :lol: I think my parents had dreams of me getting full academic scholarships to some name universities.  Instead I joined the military and then became a SAHM.

 

Then again, now that I am a SAHM I've had more than one person comment that I'm wasting my life and should be out doing something more beneficial to society, or comments from other women who have said they could never "stay at home and do nothing with their lives."

[gardenmom5]

I think there is an extremism in messaging about boys. A little boy sitting quietly and playing with a marble run gets "amazing! Look at the genius future engineer!" A boy running around with a stick at the playground is a danger:"if you don't get him under control now, think of how it will be in ten years!" They seem to get classified as either amazing or problems a significant percentage of the time. A little girl is more likely to be described in milder terms: sweet or feisty.

This situation both benefits boys the most and hurts boys the most. Girls who would otherwise shine are also hurt, while girls who avoid the"bad" label benefit.

This is all based on my limited observations and may be bunk.

 

I see much the same regarding boys - I know one college football player (then coached high school football) - was much the same way towards his sensitive son.

but 1dd - her 4/5 teacher (who was only in elementary to have a job - he was a high school math teacher)  really encouraged her. she also understood his jokes - he also fought to get her in a closed 'gifted' program starting in 6th grade when she didn't test into it.  she flourished in it.  she was every teachers dream student.

 

 

We live on a farm. My girls don't get that message at all. They are required to help work cattle, drive trucks, pick up hay bales in the field, and cut grass. They do it because they are capable of it. They HATE a lot of it, but they do it.

 

And they see me do it too.

 

Farming cuts through this gender specific crap.

 

my sil's farm experience is similar to yours.  I also saw my great aunt out doing heavy farm stuff - but my grandmother was one of ten girls - no sons - and they all (especially the younger ones) got the message - you were supposed to be a boy.   my grandmother exuded a dislike/resentment of men.  she also undermined my mother (her only child) and myself and my sister - because we were girls.  my brother could do almost anything he wanted and never held accountable.  (life has held him accountable.)  which is really ironic considering how disrespectfully she treated my grandfather and how much she hated my father.

I realize it was my grandmother - and my mother's allowance of her influence - that led me to have such dislike of females growing up.   I was fortunate to meet some amazing women.  I had adored my father - so  I was never "scared" of men - but I do see sectors where there is an attitude of "all men are monsters" being passed on to girls.

 

my sister has two daughters - and she very much bought into "everything is nurture" - and that includes, especially, boys . . . then she took three 12 yo boys out in a canoe during a school trip.   :smilielol5: :smilielol5: :smilielol5:   I think she realized they really do come with their own personalities.

 

but I also see ___ is typical girl, ___ is typical boy . . . well, my kids crossed lines in ___ typical.

[EmilyGF]

I'm going to chime in here.

 

I'm from SV and think it would be great if my girls went into high tech.

​We get the Atlantic and dd10 reads it. She began reading the headline article a few months ago, "Why is Silicon Valley so awful to women?" and asked, "Why would I want to work in a place that is awful to women?" 

 

I realize the point of the article is to try to make it otherwise, but it really had a negative affect on my daughter. So that sort of unexpected effect can accumulate, too.

​Emily

[Rosie_0801]

My dd isn't being taught that she can't do hard things. She's being taught that she can't have power and power belongs mainly to men.

[Janeway]

Do you think the current generation of girls hears this?

 

I feel like they don't.  My kids have been in co-ed martial arts, science programs, etc. and I don't get the impression they are hearing or internalizing a "girls can't" message.  I'm 50 years old, so I remember those messages - when I was a kid, it was considered somewhat remarkable when a girl could do traditional boy activities.  I recall a commercial about a girl delivering newspapers, which was supposed to be surprising.  I recall conversations with my brothers about the relative abilities of boys and girls.  I think a lot has changed.

 

Do you feel girls still hear those old messages?

No, I have not seen it or heard it. I did not even hear it when I grew up, ever, not once. And I am in my 40's.

[heartlikealion]

I'm seeing it less. I thought it was cool that the cartoon I was watching with dd the other day has a female mechanic (Tayo the Little Bus). Even one of the latest Disney movies shows Moana as more hands on than some previous Disney leads.

[Janeway]

I'm going to chime in here.

 

I'm from SV and think it would be great if my girls went into high tech.

​We get the Atlantic and dd10 reads it. She began reading the headline article a few months ago, "Why is Silicon Valley so awful to women?" and asked, "Why would I want to work in a place that is awful to women?" 

 

I realize the point of the article is to try to make it otherwise, but it really had a negative affect on my daughter. So that sort of unexpected effect can accumulate, too.

​Emily

 

If the only place your daughter hears it is in a newspaper, then I would consider if perhaps, the newspaper is not being honest. I find journalism often likes to twist things and blow things out of proportion. They could find one ant in a 1 acre yard and make it in to massive infestation.

[Tanaqui]

Anecdotes are nice, but data is better. Unfortunately, the data shows that girls are more anxious about math  (in our society, not in others) and more reluctant to do things for "smart kids". And I can find one, two, three dozen other studies just like that.

[EmseB]

Do any of those studies show a causation?

 

ETA: I ask because I'm female and I didn't/don't prefer studying STEM subjects. But it's not because I was told it was too hard, or girls shouldn't. I grew up watching my mom major in mathematics. I just don't prefer those areas of study. So I might get anxiety about math stuff, but the causation isn't because I'm a female who was told math is too hard for girls.

Edited June 9, 2017 by EmseB

[Janeway]

Do any of those studies show a causation?

 

ETA: I ask because I'm female and I didn't/don't prefer studying STEM subjects. But it's not because I was told it was too hard, or girls shouldn't. I grew up watching my mom major in mathematics. I just don't prefer those areas of study. So I might get anxiety about math stuff, but the causation isn't because I'm a female who was told math is too hard for girls.

Yeah, my mom did computer science. Then she always talked about how having a job was just terrible. I HAVE to go to work and you have no idea how terrible it is to have to work all day" and so on and so on. My older sister picked up her same habits. Both were career oriented but paid a lot of lip service to their self sacrifice and how rough their lives were. As a result, I developed an aversion to the whole computer science thing. I did not find it hard at all nor was I ever intimidated by it. I was simply not interested. 

[Arcadia]

My side of the family doesn't want females to do any heavy lifting because of the fear of uterine prolapse. They don't want elderly people to do heavy lifting regardless of gender. By heavy lifting I mean things like the >= 21" cathode ray tube televisions/computer monitors.

 

Academics and work wise, I didn't get the girls can't do math or science crap. In fact girls were courted for the sake of diversity by engineering schools and the military. The armed forces recruitor who called me blatantly said that they need girls and they would find a non-combat ranked post for me. The engineering school I applied to select based on academic grades alone and doesn't care about ECAs, sports or diversity issues. The admission office computer just ranked each candidate by grades and they do have an unofficial requirement of straight As in math and physics. So the guys were more in awe of the ladies who got into engineering school and they were rather protective as there was a guy in the ladies toilet in the evening who did try to assault the ladies.

 

My SIL is in Air Force combat position retiring soon.

 

I'm from SV and think it would be great if my girls went into high tech.

It depends on the job. All my husband's employers are gender neutral which also translates to expecting workaholics during "firefighting season" regardless of gender. My husband has conference calls from 8pm which he mostly does from home unless he was stuck at the lab. His lady colleagues are also in on the same calls. Most have school age kids or grandparents helping out with babysitting. My dual income friends in tech all have backup babysitters even if they are allowed to work from home.

 

The previous tech company I worked for had an unofficial policy of no meetings or conference calls between 5:30pm and 8pm so that people can get their kids from childcare and private schools. Many dads in my office location did the evening pickup while their wives did the morning drop off. Kids noise are allowed on evening conference calls so you can hear kids in the background.

 

A friend's husband works at Cisco and they were rather generous with working from home previously. However there are lots of conference calls and work calls so she had to take their young kids to the park if their kids are too noisy. So on the days that her husband work from home, her kids are actually out of the house not by choice. A friend's husband who works at Google and sometimes work from home has a dedicated home office so his kids don't see their dad until dinner time since he would just grab lunch from the kitchen and eat at his home office.

 

My boys saw the crazy work hours and are thinking of non-tech industries. My long time girlfriend is a lawyer in upstate NY and has much more free time and better pay than my husband. Her lady colleagues working as divorce lawyers are getting the best pay and she jokingly said divorce lawyer is what she would have chosen to be if she needed the money.

[Janeway]

Anecdotes are nice, but data is better. Unfortunately, the data shows that girls are more anxious about math  (in our society, not in others) and more reluctant to do things for "smart kids". And I can find one, two, three dozen other studies just like that.

For every study, there is another study that shows otherwise. 

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92881902

[Janeway]

Anecdotes are nice, but data is better. Unfortunately, the data shows that girls are more anxious about math  (in our society, not in others) and more reluctant to do things for "smart kids". And I can find one, two, three dozen other studies just like that.

I can definitely see the fault in that study just from the first page. They concluded that girls are more anxious about math, based on measuring their performance. They are not taking in to account interest levels or anything else. There is not even much information about the source of their data or the results. I would not take that study seriously.

[FriedClams]

I have only seen tons of positive messages for girls as girl power. I think it's culturally popular for girls to get tons of support and encouragement. I think they should. I think boys are back burnered a lot and not equally encouraged right now. I think it's a pendulum issue. One thing I LOVE about the homeschool world is that every kid can be themselves. (This has been my experience. It's not everyone's. I get that.)

[athomeontheprairie]

A neighbor asked me yesterday if "I knew any young men for some field work. It isn't hard work just long and hot"

I don't. But I gave him my girls for the morning. They were extremely helpful-every bit as helpful as their male peers would have been.

 

Does he realize what he even asked? Probably not.

 

Does this still come up? Not in so many words, but the attitudes and underlying currents are still there and effect our thinking and word usage.

[gardenmom5]

 

Academics and work wise, I didn't get the girls can't do math or science crap. In fact girls were courted for the sake of diversity by engineering schools and the military. 

 

 

. All my husband's employers are gender neutral which also translates to expecting workaholics during "firefighting season" regardless of gender. 

ding ding ding,  we have a winner. . . . I've got a son in engineering school right now.  I've looked at ALL of the scholarships linked to the schools website. fully 2/3rds!!!! (yes, I counted) are specifically for women/minorities.  white boys need not apply.  well white boys have to pay for college too, and for engineering - they have fewer resources.

 

1dd didn't major in stem - though she works in it.  (also in a gender neutral company.  the just retired ceo is a woman.) but she's my "most likely to beat down the door to get to the other side" of any of my kids - boys included.  she can do this job because she doesn't have a family/kids at home.  go out of town, up at 1am  for installs during down time, etc.  ooh - emergency - come in on your day off . . . she figured out really fast she has to drive so she has her car - taking mass transit doesn't work either.  

 

2dd did major in stem - and things were generally pretty easy for her, in some ways becasue she's a "girly girl".

[Random]

A neighbor asked me yesterday if "I knew any young men for some field work. It isn't hard work just long and hot"

I don't. But I gave him my girls for the morning. They were extremely helpful-every bit as helpful as their male peers would have been.

 

Does he realize what he even asked? Probably not.

 

Does this still come up? Not in so many words, but the attitudes and underlying currents are still there and effect our thinking and word usage.

 

Interesting.  My  boys do lots of hard labor for people in our community.  I wouldn't want my daughter to do the same types of things because she has a different body.  Like Arcadia mentioned upthread, girls and women have different physiological constraints.  I wish that someone had talked to me about that *before* I ended up with all kids of pelvic floor dysfunction because I thought I could do anything the boys could do.

 

I live in an area where we have "Hot Shot" wild land fire fighter crews that rappel or parachute out of helicopters with backpacks to fight forest fires in remote areas.  Women are on the crews, but as fit and strong as these women are (and they ARE super fit and super strong!), still men have to carry some of their loads out in the field.  The women have lighter backpacks and the men have heavier packs because the women can't do it.  (side note: this is not the official policy, but it is what happens) I don't think that is a subjective value judgment or in any way negative, you know?  It just is.

 

If we are talking about nonphysical strengths, then my dd gets that message less than I did.  But the main propagator of it is my dad, and we all know he's a bit off.  LOL.  Generally, I think women and girls have it much easier today than those of us in our 50s and 40s did.  There are still biases, but it's not like it used to be.  In my experience, for every negative message to girls, there are a dozen positive ones. 

[heartlikealion]

I'm curious how many of us had female math teachers. I had a few and my dad has a Master's in math. Honestly I think I have dyscalculia which is more what holds me back from a math path than anything else.