Farrar Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 In modern terms, define "affair." This question brought up by this headline: http://pagesix.com/2017/03/01/widow-of-joe-bidens-deceased-son-having-affair-with-brother-in-law-hunter/?_ga=1.109739333.1979423910.1488408396 Widow of Joe Biden's Deceased Son Having Affair with his Married Brother Obviously, there's a story there. But to clarify, the brother (or brother-in-law) was already separated when the romantic relationship began. Or, at least, that's apparently what they said though it's not in this piece per se (not sure about the dates on the separation and the death and all that). In any case, he's currently separated, so even if it began before that, is it currently an affair? To me, an affair is when you're breaking the rules. Once you're separated, unless you've specifically agreed not to see other people, you're not breaking any rules to see other people. I also wouldn't call a relationship in an open marriage an "affair." However, since marriage isn't the be all end all of relationships in the modern world, I would call it an affair if you're in a committed relationship where you've agreed not to see other people and you're seeing someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) If he was already separated from his wife and she was already a widow, it's not an affair, it's a relationship. It's an affair if their relationship started while Beau was still alive or if Hunter was still in a married relationship with his wife and he was sneaking around behind her back. . Edited March 1, 2017 by Catwoman 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 If he was already separated from his wife and she was already a widow, it's not an affair, it's a relationship. It's an affair if their relationship started while Beau was still alive or if Hunter was still in a married relationship with his wife and he was sneaking around behind her back. . I mostly agree with this. My only point of disagreement is with regard to separation. If divorce proceedings have begun, then I'd say it's not an affair. If the couple has just separated and has not started divorce proceedings, then I'd call it an affair. But that is maybe too quibbly. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) That *feels* inappropriate on a number of levels (just as a knee jerk mental reaction), especially with the separation, but it's not an affair by any definition I've seen. It might qualify as an emotional affair if he was emotionally involved with her prior to the separation, but that's about it. Edited March 1, 2017 by Arctic Mama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 If one of them is still married, separated or not, it's an affair. If they are both free to marry, and they are se*ually active with no plans to marry each other, it's an affair. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 How awkward for the cousins. My dad dating my aunt/mom dating my uncle would be weird. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 If married, then it's an affair. Separated doesn't mean "not married." It means "married, but probably will divorce soon. Or maybe not. We're waiting to see what happens." 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Um, super awkward, but not an affair if they weren't "together" emotionally or physically before he and his wife separated. I have a good friend living with the love of her life. Her dh was living in the Philippines with another woman (he just died a few weeks ago) and my friend's live in is still married to his wife who is living with someone else and has two kids with that someone else but stays married to him for his super duper insurance. She has medical issues and due to the rising cost of insurance she would be bankrupt if she had to buy her own insurance. I'm not sure if I explained that right, but there is a lot of being married and not "being" with the person who you are legally married to in that scenario, but it is all above board, so calling those relationships affairs seems silly. Also, is my friend a widow?? Her dh had left her for a woman he met on the internet years ago... but she will get his life insurance and not the woman he was living with for so long... weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) Obviously, there's a story there. But to clarify, the brother (or brother-in-law) was already separated when the romantic relationship began. Or, at least, that's apparently what they said though it's not in this piece per se (not sure about the dates on the separation and the death and all that). It's right at the very bottom: A source told us that the elder Hunter and Kathleen separated in October 2015, five months after the death of Beau. I am very open minded about relationships between consenting adults, and I don't really have any issues with those two getting together (didn't it used to be very common, and actually considered noble for the brother to step in and marry his widowed SIL?), but I can understand using the word affair if divorce proceedings have not even begun. I would think that in such a high profile family, it would have been prudent to keep the relationship under wraps until the divorce papers were filed. Wendy Edited March 1, 2017 by wendyroo 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Legally separated en route to divorce, it's not an affair. Divorce proceedings can drag on a while- sometimes years. "Separated" with the intention of trying to reconcile, it's an affair. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 If one of them is still married, separated or not, it's an affair. If they are both free to marry, and they are se*ually active with no plans to marry each other, it's an affair. So, two people living together with no plans to walk down the aisle are having an affair?? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 <snip> I am very open minded about relationships between consenting adults, and I don't really have any issues with those two getting together (didn't it used to be very common, and actually considered noble for the brother to step in and marry his widowed SIL?), but I can understand using the word affair if divorce proceedings have not even begun. I would think that in such a high profile family, it would have been prudent to keep the relationship under wraps until the divorce papers were filed. Wendy Not if he was married to someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Almost every adulterer in the world claims the marriage was 'over' before the new relatio ship began. They usually forget to tell their spouse. And even if a couple was truly seperated first they lose almost all chance of salvaging the marriage if a third party joins in. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Some states require a separation of a certain length of time before you are legally allowed to divorce. I think if all parties involved know the status of the relationships and nobody is sneaking around behind anyone's back, then it's not an affair. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I wouldn't classify it as an affair. That said, my blood-uncle left his wife for her brother's widow and it wrecked my family. I still slightly resent how much of an impact that whole mess had on my wedding. And it MESSED up his kids. So, yeah, my visceral reaction is totally negative, but not for any reason actually related to the Bidens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Some states require a separation of a certain length of time before you are legally allowed to divorce. I think if all parties involved know the status of the relationships and nobody is sneaking around behind anyone's back, then it's not an affair. That year long seperation before divorce is usually waived by adultery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) I think if all parties involved know the status of the relationships and nobody is sneaking around behind anyone's back, then it's not an affair. So if your husband left you for another woman you wouldn't consider it an affair as long as he Informed you? Edited March 2, 2017 by Scarlett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 If one of them is still married, separated or not, it's an affair. If they are both free to marry, and they are se*ually active with no plans to marry each other, it's an affair. I agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartlikealion Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I couldn't imagine feeling comfortable dating someone that was still married (not that anyone's asking), even if they were not really together (lived apart, little to no contact, etc.). Society doesn't seem to be bothered by this if what I see on TV is any indication, though. So it wouldn't surprise me if people define affair much differently. Despite that, I tend to avoid the word affair unless there's a more secretive nature. Now I see the word "legal" upthread in front of the word separation so maybe I'm just thinking of people using the word separation loosely. I don't really know the ins and outs of how people tend to use the term. If it's court ordered or not usually. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 That year long seperation before divorce is usually waived by adultery. But in this case it doesn't appear anyone is committing adultery. So if your husband left you for another woman you wouldn't consider it an affair as long as he Informed you? If he left me, we'd no longer be in a relationship so it wouldn't be an affair, IMO. He's still qualify as a complete ass, but it wouldn't be an affair if our relationship was over. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 But in this case it doesn't appear anyone is committing adultery. If he left me, we'd no longer be in a relationship so it wouldn't be an affair, IMO. He's still qualify as a complete ass, but it wouldn't be an affair if our relationship was over. What makes it over? What if you didn't want it to be over and you didn't consider it over? Adultery is having sex with someone when you are married to someone else. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I am shocked by how many on this thread view marriage and commitment so casually. If you believe in marriage at all you should feel a marriage is a marriage...not just until one says it isn't any more. Even the law has a stronger definition of marriage than that. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 As far as this couple I think there is slim to no chance they weren't involved before the seperation. I would like to hear the wife's take on it. Even on this board a wife was getting a divorce just sure here husband wasn't having an affair....,but he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMS83 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Sounds like an episode of Springer. I had to read that about 5 times before I comprehended the connections. Maybe I'm just slow, though... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I consider a relationship to be an affair if either is legally married. So, being separated wouldn't mean it's not an affair to me. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Sounds like an episode of Springer. I had to read that about 5 times before I comprehended the connections. Maybe I'm just slow, though... The Biden widow? In an open affair with her former in laws blessing with her dead husbands married brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I think that it's not anyone's business other than that of the people involved. 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 If one of them is still married, separated or not, it's an affair. If they are both free to marry, and they are se*ually active with no plans to marry each other, it's an affair. This is my opinion as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) Well I kind of don't care what they do. In terms of legalities, it probably is not an affair if the couple are formally, legally separated. Without that agreement and especially if there is no understanding between the separated parties that dating is mutually acceptable, then I would say personally it is an affair. Religiously, they could be separated for years and years and some religious groups would still call it an affair. I would not because I would consider that marriage spiritually is not defined by a legal license, nor is the end of the spiritual relationship. Some things are 100% finished regardless of legal papers. I have no speculation on the Biden situation. I hope whatever happens works out for the best. In the interest of disclosure, I would not be remotely interested in my brother in law should something happen to Dh. GACK!!! Edited March 2, 2017 by FaithManor 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I am shocked by how many on this thread view marriage and commitment so casually. If you believe in marriage at all you should feel a marriage is a marriage...not just until one says it isn't any more. Even the law has a stronger definition of marriage than that. It's one of the most imperfect of the human institutions and no amount of stomping my feet will change that. Also, the phrase "you should feel" makes zero sense to me. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 It's one of the most imperfect of the human institutions and no amount of stomping my feet will change that. Also, the phrase "you should feel" makes zero sense to me. Excuse my phrasing. I am shocked at how people feel. I would think they would feel differently....have different feelings about marriage. But I am not stomping my feet. I am not trying to change anyone. I am simply shocked by it. Yes marriage and life is complicated. I once knew a woman who became involved with a man whose wife was in the nursing home. They were running together at the local park and he dropped dead of a heart attack. She was devastated and then had to tell his adult children who I am not sure knew about her. I had great compassion for the spot he was in with a severely disabled wife. And for my friend who fell in love with him. But no matter my compassion the situation was wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SproutMamaK Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) As far as this couple I think there is slim to no chance they weren't involved before the seperation. I would like to hear the wife's take on it. You think they have been involved for longer than 15 months (since before he separated), when her husband had died only 5 months prior? Edited to add rather than spamming two posts in a row: I think it depends on the nature of his separation from his wife. If it's a "just getting the formal paperwork ready and our ducks in a row to make the divorce legal" separation and they were both free to move on with their lives, that's different from a "let's take some part and see if we can work this out with some distance" separation. Legally and from a spiritual perspective, they're both affairs, but since I don't expect everyone to be held to my own spiritually-based standards, I can see how one is a whole lot more unacceptable than the other. Edited March 2, 2017 by SproutMamaK 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) Awkward and a bit weird - yes. Affair - no. Edited March 2, 2017 by Lady Florida. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 What makes it over? What if you didn't want it to be over and you didn't consider it over? Adultery is having sex with someone when you are married to someone else. I think she may have meant that she wouldn't consider it to be an affair if the couple was already separated and living apart and then one of them met someone new, not that one person had an affair while the couple was still living together as a married couple, and the affair was the cause of the separation. Wow, that was convoluted. I'm not sure I'm making sense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailaena Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 If they are both free to marry, and they are se*ually active with no plans to marry each other, it's an affair. So a few people agree with this, but it makes no sense to me and nobody is following up on it! I'm assuming it's a biblical thing, but isn't this technically called whoremongering in the bible? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 If one of them is still married, separated or not, it's an affair. If they are both free to marry, and they are se*ually active with no plans to marry each other, it's an affair. That's quite different than the way I use "affair". I'm curious - how does this work for you then? Do you consider any sex outside of marriage an affair? Your post seem to make an exception for a couple who plans to marry - why? Do they need to be formally engaged? Or just with the intent of marriage at some point in the future? For me, "affair" refers to a relationship, usually sexual, usually involving some secrecy, where one of the participants is not free to be in a relationship because they are also in a committed partnership (usually by marriage) with someone else. A relationship between two people who are single would not, for me, be something I'd refer to as an affair, regardless of their plans for the future. (And it would be none of my business whether or not it was a sexual relationship, so I wouldn't choose a label that required that knowledge.) 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 You think they have been involved for longer than 15 months (since before he separated), when her husband had died only 5 months prior? Edited to add rather than spamming two posts in a row: I think it depends on the nature of his separation from his wife. If it's a "just getting the formal paperwork ready and our ducks in a row to make the divorce legal" separation and they were both free to move on with their lives, that's different from a "let's take some part and see if we can work this out with some distance" separation. Legally and from a spiritual perspective, they're both affairs, but since I don't expect everyone to be held to my own spiritually-based standards, I can see how one is a whole lot more unacceptable than the other. As I understand it her husband died and 5 months later the brother and wife seperated.....so yes I believe it is entirely possible. But who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about them starting an affair before the separation. It's not that unusual for a death in the family to cause separations or divorce. My dh told me that since we didn't divorce the year after the death of my brother that nothing could split us up. It was that bad in that first year (I struggled a great deal with it) and we had to work hard to stay together. Not everyone is as lucky. Edited March 2, 2017 by Joker 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauraw4321 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I considered someone who is married sleeping with someone else an affair. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Well, no one knows except the two of them when it began. I'm not speculating on their timing. I know people IRL who've been on both sides of the timing issue. One guy met his now-wife when he had been separated a year. His crazy ex was fighting everything. He was working two jobs to save up for the necessary legal fees. She had multiple affairs, stole from his parents, and was a generally horrible person. They didn't have children or even any assets! The other couple--they'd just had a baby. She had a rough c-section, and the baby had some failure to thrive issues. Sex wasn't happening, which he later claimed was his reason for thinking their marriage had been "over for months." Uh no, genius. Your wife had a gaping incision that didn't heal properly and needed a wound vacuum. Anyway, my line would be whether there is any deception. Both parties know the relationship is over. Not that "well, I felt it was over for a while..." nonsense. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Not if he was married to someone else. I am pretty sure in one American Indian tribe, I your husband died his brother was expected to marry you, unless you got other offers. Yes, even if he already had a wife. (This was a plot line of a dr. Quinn medicine woman episode. I remember looking it up and finding out that the story line was actually plausible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 So, to add to this, someone told me that there is a legal definition of "affair" in some states and that usually relationships when the couple is legally separated do not count as affairs from the standpoint of the divorce court. This is interesting. I wasn't sure where this board would mostly come down about this. I agree that the "it was already over" thing is a load of crap. But if there's been a legal separation, then presumably all parties are aware that things are on the road to over. I do think if a couple is legally separated but hoping for reconciliation then it could be an affair - if not in a legal sense, then definitely a moral one. I guess to me, a relationship - marriage or otherwise - is like a contract. If you say it's exclusive, it's an affair. If you say it's not, it's not. I don't feel like that's treating marriage casually at all. I take marriage very seriously. But I also think that when something is over... it's over. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Oh, and the idea that any s*xual relationship outside of marriage is an affair never even occurred to me. I suppose that from some religious standpoints that's true, but I don't think hardly anyone is using the term affair that way colloquially these days. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I think an affair has to be illicit. That means that at least one of the people in the affair has to be "cheating" on a committed, monogamous relationship. If it's an open marriage, or polyamorous, that doesn't count. If they're separated and heading towards divorce, that doesn't count. It might not count if one partner is severely disabled in a way that effectively ends the marriage but, for legal or personal reasons, the other didn't take steps to dissolve it - say, if the spouse has been in a coma for 5 years with no chance of recovery, or if they suffer from severe dementia and are in a nursing home while the other one is still active and totally healthy. It might not count if it's strictly a marriage of convenience, and everybody agreed going into it that there were no feelings. It might not count if the non-cheating partner is seriously abusive and the other one has no real ability to get away - though that might not be a wise decision. But if you're sneaking around, and lying, then that's an affair. And it might still be an affair even if you weren't married in the first place. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outdoorsy Type Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I'm not sure the legal definition, but it makes a difference to me if it was secret or if one spouse still wanted to make the marriage work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 So, to add to this, someone told me that there is a legal definition of "affair" in some states and that usually relationships when the couple is legally separated do not count as affairs from the standpoint of the divorce court. This is interesting. I wasn't sure where this board would mostly come down about this. I agree that the "it was already over" thing is a load of crap. But if there's been a legal separation, then presumably all parties are aware that things are on the road to over. I do think if a couple is legally separated but hoping for reconciliation then it could be an affair - if not in a legal sense, then definitely a moral one. I guess to me, a relationship - marriage or otherwise - is like a contract. If you say it's exclusive, it's an affair. If you say it's not, it's not. I don't feel like that's treating marriage casually at all. I take marriage very seriously. But I also think that when something is over... it's over. This is my thinking, too. Not that my two cents matter, but to me, you don't separate unless you are on the road to over. Sure, one person can make that decision while the other does not want it to happen, but IMO, if either person decides to walk, the relationship is moving towards divorce - even if the other person does not desire to divorce. So, if DH walks out the door tomorrow and says he is thinking of divorce and wants to move out to "think it over," in my mind, he's good as gone. Not to say I wouldn't make an effort to persuade him to stay, but if he will actually put our family through the tumult of making to leave, then he's as good as gone. To me, that's not a road you go down unless you mean it - no idle threats about divorcing. No, I would not buy it if the mate was internally saying it's over and he finds some strange to make his bed in - that is absolutely an affair. It's not "already over" if both partners are not well aware that there is an active intention to end the marriage. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 So, two people living together with no plans to walk down the aisle are having an affair?? By my own definition, yeah, I guess so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) Excuse my phrasing. I am shocked at how people feel. I would think they would feel differently....have different feelings about marriage. But I am not stomping my feet. I am not trying to change anyone. I am simply shocked by it. Yes marriage and life is complicated. I once knew a woman who became involved with a man whose wife was in the nursing home. They were running together at the local park and he dropped dead of a heart attack. She was devastated and then had to tell his adult children who I am not sure knew about her. I had great compassion for the spot he was in with a severely disabled wife. And for my friend who fell in love with him. But no matter my compassion the situation was wrong. nm Edited March 2, 2017 by Mergath That was purely a personal attack. Please don't. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I think an affair has to be illicit. That means that at least one of the people in the affair has to be "cheating" on a committed, monogamous relationship. If it's an open marriage, or polyamorous, that doesn't count. If they're separated and heading towards divorce, that doesn't count. It might not count if one partner is severely disabled in a way that effectively ends the marriage but, for legal or personal reasons, the other didn't take steps to dissolve it - say, if the spouse has been in a coma for 5 years with no chance of recovery, or if they suffer from severe dementia and are in a nursing home while the other one is still active and totally healthy. It might not count if it's strictly a marriage of convenience, and everybody agreed going into it that there were no feelings. It might not count if the non-cheating partner is seriously abusive and the other one has no real ability to get away - though that might not be a wise decision. But if you're sneaking around, and lying, then that's an affair. And it might still be an affair even if you weren't married in the first place. :iagree: I can't really say it better than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Married and having intimate (physical or emotional) encounter with someone they are not married to. Married equals legally married. Period. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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