Explain to Me Being a Non-WOH No-Kid Wife

[ErinE]

I honestly don't think this comes from the OPs background. I come from a poor, working-class background, and I don't think this way. The few people I've known with this thought process came from different backgrounds; no income level defined them. Eventually my parents did make it to middle-class status, but that was well into my upper teens and after years of hard, stable work.

 

But I'm not one to reflect too much on why things aren't different. I've found, for myself, that it makes me unhappy so I try not to do it.

 

This thought exercise could be extended in ridiculous ways.

 

Why isn't Warren Buffet my dad?

 

Why wasn't I born tall and beautiful so I could model?

 

Why aren't I living in Tuscany in a stone farmhouse where I can walk through the vineyards, drink wine, and write books?

 

It all comes down to: Why didn't I win the lottery?

 

Simple, the odds were against it. I will say, having known a great many awesome people, that there is a good chance of finding someone wonderful to love you.

 

But earning and maintaining wealth, that's often something outside our control. My family has been in a cyclical industry for generations. I've seen multiple boom and bust cycles in my own lifetime, let alone the ones I've heard about from my parents and grandparents. The bad times, they're outside my control and when they occur, I can only hope they pass quickly.

Edited May 26, 2016 by ErinE

[Valley Girl]

Life is not "fair." You can play by all the rules, do everything right, and still end up with the short end of the stick. You do the best you can with the skills and circumstances you have. We all do.

[Scarlett]

I will add.....as one rule follower to another, what I have learned is that I live each day striving to maintain my values and my integrity. When things go bad I can at least say I did the bet I could.

[bolt.]

The way life works has a lot to do with luck. A LOT of that luck is inherent in the privliges (or lack thereof) of each person's starting situation and inherent attributes. It's *also luck* the way that choices we make have consequences no one could have snticipated: including choice of spouse, career prep and decisions, social and relational decisions, and all the things that turn out to be 'right place right time' circumstances.

 

Hard work, focus, and resilience in employment (or towards employment) is a powerful technique, but is a technique that only makes some amount of difference some of the time -- it's a method for working within a highly randomized system. It's not a human-value quotient... It's just taught that way because kids who grow up internalizing it and using it are less likely to suffer (overall) than their more slack compatriots. No one wants their kids to suffer more than necessary.

 

Imagine you are in a skydiving contest. There's a target on the ground for everyone to aim for, but you and 50 other people are tandomzed and pushed out of a plane. You also have randomized equipment, and there are other planes dropping competitors from other heights, etc.

 

The people who taught you that 'good skydivers diligently control their parachutes through effort and attention ' are not wrong. The competitors who do put in an effort are more likely to succeed than those who simply drift -- but that doesn't mean that all drifters will be unsuccessful, or that all the hard workers will make the target.

 

Some people, through luck, arrive at the situation where they no longer need to provide their own basic needs through working for pay, They joined a good team and the team earnings are just fine. In that case, little effort is required in order to maintain a good life. If she is smart, she will put money on the side and ensure that future bad luck has some sort of provision over it... But, if not, she can always start earning her way at the point in time when its becomes necessary. She doesn't need to earn the whole time just in case.

 

There is no almost no correlation between what people deserve and what they get. (It can be influenced, and it is easy to get into trouble, but where you start and lucky moments matter much more than anything else.) Therefore there is absolutely no correlation between earning money and being valued, being respected in marriage, or being able to do the things you want to do.

 

You are smart to be identifying your false equations. They seem to be hurting you deeply.

 

You have always mattered. You have always had value. Even if (at times) you (or others) had some laziness and leisure in your life -- you had value in those moments as well as value in whatever boot-strappey determination you have applied at other times. Your value simply isn't found there, and anybody who valued/devalued you on that basis was wrong.

[coralloyd]

Ok, I was a SAHW for a full year when we first got married. First, my husband did not want me to work. He liked coming home to a clean home, and good meal. He had a stressful job and liked the calm/peaceful environment to come home to, and I liked doing it. Second, we knew we would have children within in a year or two, so why should I go to work when it was important to both of us for me to be a SAHM. I ran errands, handled all our finances, volunteered. I kept myself busy. It was annoying to have a warm meal prepared and have a late dh. I can understand that frustration. I don't think she should be nagging, and it does not seem like he works too late at all (according to your posts). However, what is it to you if a couple chooses a more toned down easy going life style? My dh has never thought that I needed to work for money in order to contribute. I won't even answer your question about sex because I find it insulting.

 

Now I homeschool 4 kids and our home is not as "peaceful" to come home to ;), but my dh is still so grateful for what I do.  

[SKL]

Well, I will say this.  I don't care too much what choices people make, but if they start whining, then I might get an attitude about it.  I don't like to hear "poor me, I have to put up with xyz" when xyz was a choice.  I am pro-own-your-choice.

 

So if we're talking about "SAHW-NK is such a hard life," my thought is, then why don't you try making a different choice?  (And also, do you really think it's easy street to make the other choice?)  But if you're saying "SAHW-NK works for us" then I have no opinion about it.  It's not like all my life choices are popular.

[gypsymama]

I agree it sounds like this is boiling down to a "why didn't *I* win the lottery?" question. Well because you didn't. Life isn't fair. That's the only rule there is. Life isn't fair.

 

We all make choices and do the best we can with our situations. You can make all the right choices but sometimes life gets you anyways. I wasn't expecting the recession in 2008 to cause us to lose our home that I worked so hard for but it happened. I wasn't expecting to have children with special needs or medical concerns but it happened. It's just how it is. We can't sit around and cry because someone else got dealt a better hand. It's just like playing cards... sometimes you win because you played a better game and sometimes you win because you lucked up and got dealt the hand you needed. That's life.

 

Maybe she got lucky and was born into a wealthy family so she has plenty of money without ever working and doesn't have to worry about her husband leaving. Maybe she did "better" picking a husband than you did to give her the lifestyle she wanted. Maybe she works her A off lowering their expenses to stay in budget so she can stay home.

 

I'm a SAHM but regardless of the kids I work my butt off to save us money in many ways. We purposely moved to a low COL area. We bought a cheap decent but needing some work house in a less desirable area so that we could afford to pay it off and not have a house note instead of buying a subdivision home. We only buy used cars with cash and do our own maintenance/work instead of paying a car note. I cook mostly from scratch and purposely look for low cost meals instead of eating out or convenience foods. We eat a lot of bean dishes! I frequently line dry clothes. I have LED lights. I don't have cable. We keep a cheap prepaid phone plan and don't buy fancy new Iphones everytime the new one is released. I buy used clothes instead of new or name brand. I very rarely buy anything retail price. And on it goes... all of this means my total bills are as low or lower than most people's house note. All the choices we made are what made this possible. We could live on VERY little money now. On the other hand if we'd stayed in line with  a more "normal" lifestyle we'd have $1500+/mo in bills. Choices. (And some luck since we've been fortunate that nothing has derailed these lower our expenses plans ;) )

 

 

[TammyS]

 

 

I am looking for the real rules of the game. I am not stupid and I'm not lazy so my thought is if I only understood the rules of the game, I would be able to secure a decent retirement and inheritance for my kids.

 

There is no game.  You're looking for a set of rules that doesn't exist.  There is only doing the best with what you know, in your situation, in your corner of the world, and praying for good luck, or at least the avoidance of bad luck.  But there is no set of rules that if you do x you will get y.  Doesn't exist.

 

 

 

Here I was busting my butt to make myself valuable and I still have never been valued. How come she is so valued? What did I do wrong, why am I not that valuable that I have to work?

 

She is so valued because her husband values her that much and can afford to show it in that way. 

 

I can't speak to your value.  Only you could, and should, do that.  If you have to work, it's because of a combination of your choices and your luck (not to suggest that your choices were "bad" but sometimes we can't really see the outcome of our choices or we don't know enough...and I guess that's a kind of luck, too).  You have to work because your life is different from hers.  That's really all it is.

 

 

Why would he? That's a million dollar gift right there. If I knew why he would do that, maybe I can get that for myself.

 

Really?  I mean, seriously?  Is that a real question?

 

He does it for her because he loves her and he can.  That's it.  What would you NOT give to your beloved if you could?

 

 

What matters is that I need to know how the world works and what is expected of me and of my kids, so that we can take care of ourselves.

 

What the world expects is to not have to worry about supporting you.  These days, I guess it's more correct to say that's what the world hopes.  And that you don't break laws, of course.  Other than that, the world isn't interested in you.  Make the best choices you know how, pray for good luck, pray no one gets sick/injured.  That's all there is.  You play the hand you are dealt.

 

 How the heck is this an option???"

 

Because someone can provide, and chooses to do so, for the one they love.  I am really having a hard time with the idea that you don't get that.

 

 

. I am not really sure how a SAHW is really working that much...

 

When do you get groceries?  Cook? Do laundry? Take kids to the doc? Take care of home maint? Mow? Take care of car maint.? Vacuum? Mop? Dust? Take care of paperwork (it's not just bills, it's taxes, college paper work, travel arrangements, insurance forms, etc?)?  All of the stuff that you spend your non-work time on, the SAHW takes care of during her dh's working hours.  So they both have those hours free and together.  But more importantly than that, even if she didn't, that's their business.  It's possible because two free people agreed.  That's it.  It's really no more complicated than that.

 

[Jane Elliot]

Well I'm not sure I have anything to add, just that the tone and content of the OP's follow-up posts just continues to surprise me.  It doesn't seem consistent with any group ideology I've encountered, from the most conservative to the most liberal.  Nor have I ever met any individual who thinks that way.

 

 

My first post in this thread, and I agree with you. I'm so gobsmacked by this thread that I have nothing to say. And I come from a long line of SAHW's, including the current generation (sisters) and next generation (nieces).

 

Could this be a regional thing? I don't want to generalize, but I've seen the op type of thinking in people from some cities on the west coast -- Seattle and San Francisco (Silicon Valley) are the two I'm familiar with.

[marbel]

Could this be a regional thing? I don't want to generalize, but I've seen the op type of thinking in people from some cities on the west coast -- Seattle and San Francisco (Silicon Valley) are the two I'm familiar with.

 

Typically the coasts are higher COL areas, so, sure, there would tend to be more dual-income couples in those places, because it's necessary for more people.

 

I spent most of my life in Silicon Valley.  When we left in the late '90s I couldn't wait to get out.  So much pressure to work a lot, make a lot of money... I would say in that place at that time, a SAHW wife, unless she was an executive's wife, was considered an anomaly and of little real value.  Even most stay-home moms I knew spent most of their time talking about when they'd be going back to work, whether they wanted to or not.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

 I think it's very important that the decision to work or not is made by both people for the betterment of the family (even if it's just the two). 

I agree with this, but it's also important to recognize that it does make the one who stays at home extremely vulnerable.

 

Even if the decision not to work is made jointly, the 'worker' can renege on that under the stress of a job loss, or in the event of the separation or divorce can say that they never wanted this lifestyle and only agreed to it reluctantly and under great pressure.  Most of the time the 'worker' can make that stick as there is no proof otherwise, and at the point the very economically disadvantaged spouse suddenly becomes responsible to develop a career rather quickly, maybe with a little transitional alimony, or maybe not.

[Spryte]

This goes waaaaay back, so maybe it has been covered.

 

This could describe my friend. She was one of the top students in the country in high school and college and graduate school. Then she got her first job and experienced a series of strokes. Now, if you met here, you'd think she is fine. Hey, she travels a lot with her husband.

 

But she isn't fine. Writing is hard for her. She can't process noise. She gets really tired really easily. She no longer drives (pair that with getting tired easily and not being able to live in built up areas because of lack of noise processing).

 

But she seems fine. She probably does ask her husband to come home earlier. She's dealt with depression. But you couldn't see this from the outside.

 

Emily

I keep thinking along these lines, too. There are so many scenarios like this that could be playing out. Tsuga said the wife wants to pursue hobbies that preclude a disability (long hikes) but I can think of many disabilities that would allow for those activities on good days. And there's no reason that a coworker of her DH would need to know. These would be invisible disabilities, but real. She could have lupus, MS. Any number of things. And in good days - she could do long hikes. Or anything. But the bad days aren't predictable enough to go to an office, you know?

 

I have several invisible disabilities, myself, after almost dying of a brain infection years ago. I won't ever be the same. In fact, I would have a hard time going back to work - some days I'm fine, other days - I'm not. Because of the autonomy mentioned somewhere in this thread, I can get through what I need to do to HS well and DH shares the work of the house and parenting more than most DHs. He has been in his company for 16 years, and while some know - mostly the ones who've spent time with us socially, and move past small talk into real conversations - most people do not know that I've struggled, and almost died more than once. It's possible that some see me as a freeloader. Why should DH take the day off every three months to take me to a follow up with a specialist 2 hours away (today's the day, btw, so he's off as I type), and why can't I drive myself (because I have permanent double vision and prism glasses help for a bit, but I can't swing four hours of driving anymore, without swerving and endangering lives). Why can't I do X, Y, Z that every other mom does? Why should DH take so many personal days or pay for a housekeeper or come home in time to help with dinner? All of this makes me question my own self worth sometimes, or it used to - not so much now. It stinks at times, but this is what we have to deal with, both of us. Fortunately, he's not the kind of guy to leave because I'm defective now. :)

 

Tsuga, it sounds like you're stuck on what's fair. You're right - it's not fair. It's just life.

[Dmmetler]

I'm not sure how this is anyone's business but theirs.

 

I would also gently point out that you would have no way of knowing if she has a mental illness unless you were involved in her healthcare or they chose to tell you. What you describe could be what you assume "nagging spouse" or it could be someone with anxiety or severe depression or any number of other things. I'm open about my issues with mental illness with some folks but certainly none of my husband's co-workers know. Why would he tell them?

I admit to wondering if the OP is talking about my brother and SIL-because that's probably how they appear to the outside. What isn't obvious is that SIL is a TBI patient, who has seizures and memory issues and other long-term effects-so she truly is stranded at home unless she lives somewhere with excellent public transit or that is very walkable. Her seizures are controlled, but it takes very little stress/pressure to push her out of control. And her memory issues are such that it is entirely possible that if she has a bad day she may call or text someone repeatedly, because she remembers she needs to call-but not necessarily remember she's done so. She is a sweet woman-willing to volunteer and help out, and loves being the 1950's housewife and takes a lot of pride in doing so, but unless you are around her a lot, you truly don't realize how much her day to day functioning depends on essentially living the 1950's life.

[Katy]

...

 

Yeah, but what a sweet deal. What I'm wondering is how does that work. My partner is working, so I'm working. He got a promotion so I got a promotion. How does my identity as a whole person, an adult human, fit into that? Did he also sit on the couch picking out paint colors all day? Did he also go to the gym because I went to the gym?

 

It doesn't really make sense to me.

...

 

Why is your identity that tied up into your work anyway?  You are who you are, not what you do.  Humans who aren't working have no less inherent worth.

[Night Elf]

Others are addressing many of Tsuga's points, but one that stood out to me was her talking about one spouse leaving the other. I interpret that as something she worries about. I don't worry about that at all. I've been through a divorce and came out just fine. It certainly wasn't easy but I survived it. I'm positive I can survive another divorce, but I choose to put all myself into my marriage and not only part of myself, saving some part for the possibility of needing to take care of myself. I don't work for pay. I don't have personal savings. I'm not educated to get a high paying job. One time I got lucky and made a decent salary, but that was luck falling into that position. I could never find a position like that again. But I'm not scared of all of that. I hope this makes sense.

 

I also don't worry about justifying myself to anyone. I was raised to believe a woman can do whatever she wants. She can work if that is what she chooses/needs to do. She can stay home if she and her DH can swing it. As a child, I wasn't exposed to the possibility that someone's worth/value was due to their life choice. That's just a foreign concept to me.

[Guest]

I know it is scary but there isn't anything you can do that will guarantee success for your children. Shit happens sometimes. People win the lottery sometimes. All we can do is deal with it and pray for strength (if you are a praying person).

[SKL]

Yeah, I come from poor beginnings, and I was not taught that being poor means a person is worthless or stupid or lazy etc.  My dad worked hard, sometimes at multiple jobs, and we were still poor.  My mom also worked and went to school [when I was little].  Both of my parents are very intelligent, though my dad has dyslexia.

 

My parents never shirked their responsibility to their kids, or, as far as we knew, compromised their moral beliefs.  This is what I learned to value.  Not money / earning power.  When I started earning a lot of money, I felt happiest giving it away.  People have joked about me being "Mother Teresa" because I have so little value for material things.  So no, I don't think a poor background makes people think money = personal worth.

 

I remember my mom telling me that she had originally intended to be a SAHW / SAHM all her life, as she loved housekeeping and children.  The reality wasn't as rosy as the dream, so she did work, as a means to certain ends, and because spending time in an all-adult world was therapeutic for her.  She thought I'd be a career person based on my academic aptitude and interests.  But I never got the impression from either parent that SAH is something to look down upon.  Rather it was something to put into perspective.  For example, her friend had a spotless house, and my mom would point out (when the comparison came up in private) that friend was home all day to clean it, and only had half as many kids.

Edited May 26, 2016 by SKL

[TammyS]

 

 

Why... because then he can just leave and she has nothing. If it's a gift he can stop giving at any moment and she's screwed. That's why. It's an incredibly high-risk proposition for the woman.

 

That's always been the case, whether the woman worked or not.  SAHMs are in the same economic position.  Disabled with supporting spouse are in the same position.  Two income families, kids or not, are in the same position, because consumption usually (I know it's not always) rises to meet income, or was always necessary without a choice for 1 income only.  In many ways, this woman is in a strong position, because if he leaves she doesn't have the economic/logistical drag of kids and she has a degree that you say is in demand.  If he dumps her, she'll have a few rough months and then back on her feet.  And that's assuming that she's dumb enough to leave the house, because it's not likely a judge is going to up and throw her out right away.  If she's smart enough to stay in the house, she won't have a bad transition at all.

 

But more importantly, I was more thinking from the man's point of view. Say you can have a wife. One of them cooks, cleans, pays bills, and works full time or part time. She pays for the vacations, she enables you to breathe at work. Or you can have another wife which does exactly the same thing but no money.

 

Because a wife is not hired help.  You don't look at her for her economic value.  If you do, you're just turning her into a prostitute in your mind. 

 

 

 

 

Do you think he works because he loves that, or that he works because it is the best job he can have AND support a family?

 

Depends on the man.  Some men love their work, or if not the work itself then they love being productive.  Other men work as little as they can while still supporting their family (this is my dh).  Different people, different preferences.

 

 

Yeah, but what a sweet deal. What I'm wondering is how does that work. My partner is working, so I'm working. He got a promotion so I got a promotion. How does my identity as a whole person, an adult human, fit into that? Did he also sit on the couch picking out paint colors all day? Did he also go to the gym because I went to the gym?

 

Your identity fits in however you want it to.  You are a free person and get to choose.  You seem to identify with work, so that's your choice.  Other people identify with other things, or refuse to be quantified at all (that's me - I don't believe that I have to justify my existence).  So yeah, when my dh gets a raise, I get a raise.  When I painted the bathroom, he would say "we painted our bathroom" because while he may or may not have lifted a paint brush, we did it together by virtue of our combined household effort.  I picked out the colors, he helped finalize them.  I went to Lowes and got the paint stuff, and did the actual painting, he went to work and earned the money that made it possible.  It's "WE", 100%, in all things.  Anything else would inevitably end up with bitterness and resentment, because one can never truly balance the books.

 

 

 

And if it's not balanced, what happens when one person leaves?

 

The same thing that always happens when one person leaves - financial devastation, almost always.  This is true regardless of your marital arrangement, unless you happen to be wealthy.

 

Why are some women worthy of a million dollars of support over their lives and others worthless? You see them, both maintain their figures, both presumably try to please their men in bed, both cook... but one of them is worth a lifetime of free money and the other is worth nothing. She "has" to work. Her man left.

 

You're talking about worth and money.  That's just prostitution.  The dollar amount doesn't really matter.

 

When you marry someone you should be able to say, "You are worth all that I have, all that I ever will have."  If you can't, don't marry them.  My dh is worth 100% of me, and I'm worth 100% of him.

 

 

.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

What I want to know is, where is this rule book that everyone keeps talking about???

Did yours get lost in the mail?  I had to file a missing package report with UPS.  Along with the one for the missing "All You Will Every Need to Know About Child Rearing" manual...

Edited May 26, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[Carol in Cal.]

This thread reminds me of:

 

 

[heartlikealion]

Why is your identity that tied up into your work anyway?  You are who you are, not what you do.  Humans who aren't working have no less inherent worth.

 

Exactly.

 

I have heard that people are so used to introducing themselves and immediately asking each other what they do for a living, but should probably try other questions to get to know someone. I even found a list here:

https://open.buffer.com/27-question-to-ask-instead-of-what-do-you-do

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Exactly.

 

I have heard that people are so used to introducing themselves and immediately asking each other what they do for a living, but should probably try other questions to get to know someone. I even found a list here:

https://open.buffer.com/27-question-to-ask-instead-of-what-do-you-do

 

Oh I love this!  

[marbel]

Exactly.

 

I have heard that people are so used to introducing themselves and immediately asking each other what they do for a living, but should probably try other questions to get to know someone. I even found a list here:

https://open.buffer.com/27-question-to-ask-instead-of-what-do-you-do

 

 

That's a good idea.   I'm laughing, though, because I didn't read through the whole list but the first one caught my eye and not in a good way:

 

"What are you most passionate about?"

 

No, please do not ask me that the first time you meet me.   :huh: 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by marbel

[Artichoke]

 

Why are some women worthy of a million dollars of support over their lives and others worthless? You see them, both maintain their figures, both presumably try to please their men in bed, both cook... but one of them is worth a lifetime of free money and the other is worth nothing. She "has" to work. Her man left.

 

 

 

 

It's not about worth or value of a woman.   It's about the decisions made in how you want your joint lives and subsequent years as a family to be.   There's not any sort of guarantee that your choices will work.  You just do what you feel is best for your lives after coming to agreement as a couple. 

[Carol in Cal.]

In about 70 years we have completely upended the assumption set of American culture around what constitutes a normal household.

 

It used to be widely considered insulting to the husband for a wife to work outside the home, with kids or not; and it was also the case that women were unable to get offered a lot of jobs.  My original field was chemical engineering, and I had a prof tell me about his wife having graduated in that field in the early 1970s and being unable to get any offers, plus being sent rejection letters that said, "We have already chosen the best man for the job."  This is inconceivable now, and we tend to underestimate the breadth and scope of that change.

 

OTOH, there was a lot of work to be done at home that isn't as much the case now.  Sewing wasn't a cute hobby; it was a money-saving skill that enabled the skillful to clothe their families in custom fitted garments at a much cheaper price than store bought.  I'm not sure what an analogous skill is now, but I think it might be shopping thrift stores and sales.  Cooking from scratch was the norm rather than the exception, and being a savvy food shopper was a measurably valuable skill.  Having a big veggie garden and doing food preservation was time consuming and large contributor to the economics of the household, not to mention the health.  

 

Also, the generation that fought WWII was the first to have the GI bill, and that started a general upward shift in college education that has only accelerated with time, as guys who would have had their own businesses or worked in blue collar jobs got degrees and 'careers' instead of 'trades'.  I think that that extended the idea that a successful man has a SAHW.  Societal pressures were in that direction, definitely.

 

Then many guys started to feel trapped by this, like they were getting the raw end of the deal.  Many didn't, but the ones that did established a single adult male as lucky view that had not been around earlier--earlier it had been the mark of a successful, mature man to have established himself as the head of a household.  Then divorce started to be more and more common, and to a large extent the modern feminist movement formed in response to that loss of assumed security.  (CF Ehrenreich:  "The Hearts of Men")

There was a great deal of angst among women not having their own identities as well, and it became a perfect storm that changed everything.  (CF  Friedan:  "The Feminine Mystique" re the Problem That Has No Name.)

 

When my parents were little, getting married and setting up a household that was economically viable was the mark of maturity.  College was valued but not necessary.

 

By the time I was little, college education was supposed to be the ticket to success, and pretty much a sure ticket.  And setting up a single adult household that was economically viable was the mark of maturity.  Marriage and children were great good things, but not necessary for maturity or success; a self-supporting career, preferably backed up by a college education, was.  

 

Now there are no sure tickets.  That is a HUGE shift, and a very big adjustment; and I think it is a big contributor to general anxiety (as well as anxiety rates, but that's a separate issue). We have a lot more possible life patterns, which has rewards but also carries great risks.  It's hard now, even though aspects of it are very exhilerating.  Thankfully, for me, this is all mitigated by faith in God, but it's still pretty challenging to contemplate, especially on behalf of my DD and others of that age.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[hornblower]

I think if we dig deep here, we're getting at:

-social issues of class, privilege & upward mobility 

 

-personal issues of identity, worth, and choice. 



There is a strong and prevasive ideology (the 'rule book') in your country and culture that you're all equal and you can achieve anything & be anything you want, and if you're coming from behind, well, you can just bootstrap your way up. It's a compelling story people in this culture like to tell themselves. The facts actually speak otherwise.  And while some people like to say that mobility is decreasing, actually what seems to be true instead is that it's sucked for quite some time. 

What has added to the suckage is that income inequality has made the jumps that much harder. It was a big stretch to leap up a class, now it's a huge stretch. 



"Social mobility is low and has been for at least thirty or forty years.†This is most obvious when you look at the prospects of the poor. Seventy per cent of people born into the bottom quintile of income distribution never make it into the middle class, and fewer than ten per cent get into the top quintile. Forty per cent are still poor as adults. What the political scientist Michael Harrington wrote back in 1962 is still true: most people who are poor are poor because “they made the mistake of being born to the wrong parents.†The middle class isn’t all that mobile, either: only twenty per cent of people born into the middle quintile ever make it into the top one. And although we think of U.S. society as archetypally open, mobility here is lower than in most European countries." 

 

 

The rules are different for people in privileged groups. They can screw up, they can make many more mistakes and their wealth and family assets will buffer them to a large extent from their errors.

 

So... moving into the personal: 

I actually think there's a lot of what is really propaganda to get people to identify as workers. (as described above the "what do you do" question being central to most people's lives; and even as parents and here on the WTM, the 'what will you be?" question being central to our children's lives and esp once we hit the high school & college boards....) 

I think there's a concerted effort to make a segment of the population have their entire identity wrapped up in the 'virtues' of being a _______ (job title) and not only that but 'being a hard worker/giving 110%/go getter' etc etc. 

It's a very convenient construct that serves the extremely privileged.  And no, I'm not denigrating work and yes, many extremely wealthy people work very hard. But there are many people who do not:  ladies who lunch and men who golf every day and people who only pop into the office when they feel like it and people in families who live on one income or investment income etc etc etc. 

And lastly choice - to the extent that it exists for some groups/people.... but in all segments there are choices to be made about partners.  Because we still live in an unequal society, bad choices made my women tend to IMO hurt them more.  Women need to choose so carefully if they want to have a chance at upward mobility. But even if a woman does everything right, that upward mobility might not work for her; however, I think with luck and good judgement, she might be able to move her kids up to the next SE class.  And yeah, if you want to be a stay at home partner, you have to pick a spouse who will be able and willing to have that happen, who views the couple as a unit, who just puts all the money in the bank account and it's immediately 'ours' and both people make spending decisions equally and both people have worth in the relationship despite who earns the $.   Those people exist. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by hornblower

[hornblower]

That's a good idea.   I'm laughing, though, because I didn't read through the whole list but the first one caught my eye and not in a good way:

 

"What are you most passionate about?"

 

No, please do not ask me that the first time you meet me.   :huh:

 

Really? why not? It's a very west coast thing to talk about your passions to everyone. 

[Murphy101]

That's a good idea. I'm laughing, though, because I didn't read through the whole list but the first one caught my eye and not in a good way:

 

"What are you most passionate about?"

 

No, please do not ask me that the first time you meet me. :huh:

My husband actually got that a few months ago and just gave them that :huh: look and quipped, "I have 10.3 children so I think that speaks for itself."

 

😳 I don't know how I live with that man sometimes. I can't take him anywhere. Must be the great sex that earns keeping him around.😎

 

They had this weird pseudo spiritual team building ice breaker thing where all kinds of odd or personal questions were being asked. Soooo awkward.

[Valley Girl]

My husband actually got that a few months ago and just gave them that :huh: look and quipped, "I have 10.3 children so I think that speaks for itself."

 

😳 I don't know how I live with that man sometimes. I can't take him anywhere. Must be the great sex that earns keeping him around.😎

 

They had this weird pseudo spiritual team building ice breaker thing where all kinds of odd or personal questions were being asked. Soooo awkward.

 

The perfect answer!

 

(What is it that makes companies think we'll all work better as a team if we're forced into touchy, feely, share-everything sessions where the correct answer to many of the questions is "None of your #$%! business?)

[Carol in Cal.]

Really? why not? It's a very west coast thing to talk about your passions to everyone. 

Not my West Coast.

 

I would find that incredibly invasive, especially in a business setting, where I think it degrades professionalism to confide in people too much (especially for women.)

Edited May 26, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[FaithManor]

 

Fwiw I grew up with almost the opposite rhetoric. Good mums and good wives stay home and care for their families. Some of the friends are equally looking at those with successful careers and supportive husbands going "why does she get to do that and I'm cooking and cleaning toilets". Some of them are studying to change it. Some have always had careers.

 

The risk of divorce is definitely a trade off. In my mums generation the risk of divorce was much lower but there was probably the risk of a quietly unhappy marriage.

I grew up with this too. In this area it is still the common, prevailing thought that women should be quiet, stay at home wives, subservient to their husbands. I have been judged A LOT for working outside the home.

 

When dh cut himself so badly a few years back, Jane in NC, Nan in Mass, Creekland, and Regentrude might remember me posting about being a little worried about our deductible and some medical bills related to it, I went to work on weekends in a quilt store, and part-time during the week for a private school teaching an hour per day of chemistry, tutoring in algebra, and teaching a three hour per week ACT prep course as well as doing a little guidance counseling work. I did that so we could pay off those medical bills rapidly and not incur debt. I was ridiculously looked down upon for going into the work force. It was nuts! Around here the hallmark of middle classdom is a stay at home wife. A dear friend of mine has gone back to work to help pay the EFC for their college aged daughter so she doesn't have to take out private loans. The women in her church have all been very catty about it, and have said things to her face like, "Well, a godly woman's place is in the home. Clearly you are outside god's will. Your daughter shouldn't be going to college if it means you have to earn money. Tell your husband to get a second job." And all manner of crap like that.

 

Mostly, I think an awful lot of people in our society are insecure about their lot in life, about their feelings about their lot in life, and feel threatened by someone doing it "differently". They want everyone else to do the same thing they are doing because they think their decisions must be right because "this is what everyone does". Yet, what they really need to do is take ownership of their own choices and butt out of other people's business. Our decisions are informed by our past, by our family culture, by our economics, our communities, our needs, and our families, and that represents a lot of diversity so there isn't any "one right choice". The lifestyle of the couple in the OP is morally neutral, no different from my friend who went back to work. No need for community input or judging.

[Scarlett]

I grew up with this too. In this area it is still the common, prevailing thought that women should be quiet, stay at home wives, subservient to their husbands. I have been judged A LOT for working outside the home.

 

When dh cut himself so badly a few years back, Jane in NC, Nan in Mass, Creekland, and Regentrude might remember me posting about being a little worried about our deductible and some medical bills related to it, I went to work on weekends in a quilt store, and part-time during the week for a private school teaching an hour per day of chemistry, tutoring in algebra, and teaching a three hour per week ACT prep course as well as doing a little guidance counseling work. I did that so we could pay off those medical bills rapidly and not incur debt. I was ridiculously looked down upon for going into the work force. It was nuts! Around here the hallmark of middle classdom is a stay at home wife. A dear friend of mine has gone back to work to help pay the EFC for their college aged daughter so she doesn't have to take out private loans. The women in her church have all been very catty about it, and have said things to her face like, "Well, a godly woman's place is in the home. Clearly you are outside god's will. Your daughter shouldn't be going to college if it means you have to earn money. Tell your husband to get a second job." And all manner of crap like that. .

What the heck? Who are these people? I have never heard anything like that in my life and I thought I was in a conservative world.

[MercyA]

I don't work.

It's no one's business to care...even if I'm not doing a bunch of awesome volunteering.

Knowing that there are people judging me hurts in my most anxious moments.

I'm sad that I get tempted to try and prove my worth.

I don't think some people matter more than others and get sad when things remind me that not everyone thinks like I do.

:(

 

Aww, happi duck. I think you are awesome, and you're right, some people DON'T matter more than others.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I was a stay-at-home wife for *8 YEARS* before I had a baby, and I don't feel the need to justify it to anyone. 

 

So many of you have shared such words of wisdom in this thread. Thank you.  

Edited May 26, 2016 by MercyA

[frogger]

Don't let outsiders place a value on your life Tsuga. Your husband may have left but you are worth a billion to your children, I'm sure. So they can't pay you. Who cares? They love and need you. There are many people walking around hurting and they need to step on someone else to feel a little higher. Don't let them. Move on with your own life, doing for those you love and don't join them. Life is not fair but it sure is easier when people are kind to each other not stepping on one another so don't be tempted to join in.

 

Wages aren't for valuing people. They are the value of a task. If I was paying someone to mow my lawn and it became too expensive I would do it myself or not have that money for other things. That says nothing absolutely nothing about how much I value the actual person who mows the lawn. In fact my children work cheaper than anyone else and trust me, they are very valuable to me. So don't confuse wages or jobs with people's values even if you've heard someone do that. Money values are for things and for tasks. It stinks that sometimes we don't have enough to trade. The trick is recognizing that those values don't apply to us as people but the things we are selling, specific skills or tasks.

[marbel]

Really? why not? It's a very west coast thing to talk about your passions to everyone. 

 

It just sounds so cliche to me.  It made the BBC's list of overused words in 2013 (which I know is a long time ago now).  it sounds very personal, but I don't mean as in romantic/sexual.   "How do you enjoy spending your time?" seems to be the same question but less personal/loaded/cliche.

 

I prefer less personal things like:

 

How do you know...? (host, bride, groom, etc if at a social event)

 

What brings you here?  (such as to a visitor at church)

 

Have you always lived in this area?  (similar to "where are you from" which was a typical question when I lived in Cali and Oregon, because most people were from somewhere else, but not a welcome question here in the Philly suburbs, because of course they're from here and where else should people be from?)

 

:-)

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

 

What's really damaging is trying to fit into someone else's mold. Being told what role you should fill. Going against what is best for your family simply because it might look bad to others destroys the family. 

 

My mom was a SAHM until I was 4 and she hated it. 

 

And that is the Problem That Has No Name.

 

Have you ever read "The Women's Room" (novel) or "The Feminine Mystique" (serious sociology) or "Decades" (trashy but illustrative novel)?  I think you will find your mom in those.  I know I found a lot of my friends' mothers there.

[regentrude]

I grew up with this too. In this area it is still the common, prevailing thought that women should be quiet, stay at home wives, subservient to their husbands. I have been judged A LOT for working outside the home.

 

When dh cut himself so badly a few years back, Jane in NC, Nan in Mass, Creekland, and Regentrude might remember me posting about being a little worried about our deductible and some medical bills related to it, I went to work on weekends in a quilt store, and part-time during the week for a private school teaching an hour per day of chemistry, tutoring in algebra, and teaching a three hour per week ACT prep course as well as doing a little guidance counseling work. I did that so we could pay off those medical bills rapidly and not incur debt. I was ridiculously looked down upon for going into the work force. It was nuts! Around here the hallmark of middle classdom is a stay at home wife. A dear friend of mine has gone back to work to help pay the EFC for their college aged daughter so she doesn't have to take out private loans. The women in her church have all been very catty about it, and have said things to her face like, "Well, a godly woman's place is in the home. Clearly you are outside god's will. Your daughter shouldn't be going to college if it means you have to earn money. Tell your husband to get a second job." And all manner of crap like that.

 

 

Reading these experiences is very interesting to me, because I have never encountered views like the bolded. I move in two distinct circles which have virtually no overlap and different socioeconomic profiles. My work related circle consists of academics with advanced degrees, and almost all women work unless they are caring for young children, even though the families could live on one income (college instructors do not make big bucks, but in this low COL area one income goes a long way). My other friendship circle consists of people with rather eclectic/alternative lifestyles, and there, too, almost all women work (some part time, some self employed), even those who homeschool - partly out of necessity, and partly because they are passionate about the work they do as artists, instructors, doulas.

In both groups, men are supportive of their wives working; in some cases, the wives earn the bigger or even sole income.

[Carol in Cal.]

One last thing.

 

It's really tempting to be bitter.  But that kills all the good in life.  It's hard not to be, sometimes, when things go wrong or plans don't work out.  But it's like poisoning yourself.  

[hornblower]

 

 

Have you always lived in this area?  (similar to "where are you from" which was a typical question when I lived in Cali and Oregon, because most people were from somewhere else, but not a welcome question here in the Philly suburbs, because of course they're from here and where else should people be from?)

 

 

 

just as a btw, that question is sometimes considered as racist / xenophobic. I know 3rd & 4th generation people of Asian descent for ex who will be asked this question over & over again. Vancouver is not enough of an answer. 

 

As a caucasian immigrant who passes for local after I changed my name, I don't get it as much but I'm aware of it because I used to be asked & it's not a friendly "oh you're from Ottawa v. Toronto" question. It's a question that signals "you're not one of us"   

 

[FaithManor]

Reading these experiences is very interesting to me, because I have never encountered views like the bolded. I move in two distinct circles which have virtually no overlap and different socioeconomic profiles. My work related circle consists of academics with advanced degrees, and almost all women work unless they are caring for young children, even though the families could live on one income (college instructors do not make big bucks, but in this low COL area one income goes a long way). My other friendship circle consists of people with rather eclectic/alternative lifestyles, and there, too, almost all women work (some part time, some self employed), even those who homeschool - partly out of necessity, and partly because they are passionate about the work they do as artists, instructors, doulas.

In both groups, men are supportive of their wives working; in some cases, the wives earn the bigger or even sole income.

Well,Regentrude, it was a real shocker when we moved here. We lived for part of our marriage in Danville, Indiana while dh and I worked on the out skirts of Indianapolis and we never encountered anything like this. It was the same when we lived in Oregon, again just a non issue and no one was "up in everyone's business". Even where we lived in Florida, there was a general "not having an opinion about what the neighbor's are up to".

 

Maybe it is because in this area a ton of families have lived her for multiple generations. We are outsiders, so is friend and few others in our circle so maybe they think that gives them the right to judge us because we don't "fit" with their status quo.

[TammyS]

Really? why not? It's a very west coast thing to talk about your passions to everyone. 

 

Well, I'm from the east coast, and I would find it a rude, probing, overly personal question coming from a stranger.  Ick.

[Bluegoat]

just as a btw, that question is sometimes considered as racist / xenophobic. I know 3rd & 4th generation people of Asian descent for ex who will be asked this question over & over again. Vancouver is not enough of an answer. 

 

As a caucasian immigrant who passes for local after I changed my name, I don't get it as much but I'm aware of it because I used to be asked & it's not a friendly "oh you're from Ottawa v. Toronto" question. It's a question that signals "you're not one of us"   

 

 

So our passions are ok to ask about but not our origins?

 

Seems a little weird to me.

[Bluegoat]

About these people who only value work for pay.

 

Why would anyone give a flying fig about their opinion?

 

If someone is so blinkered that they don't see how unpaid work can benefit both individuals and communities, I don't expect much wisdom from them and will not be put out if I don't somehow meet their approval.  Chances are, I don't approve of them.

[SparklyUnicorn]

About these people who only value work for pay.

 

Why would anyone give a flying fig about their opinion?

 

If someone is so blinkered that they don't see how unpaid work can benefit both individuals and communities, I don't expect much wisdom from them and will not be put out if I don't somehow meet their approval.  Chances are, I don't approve of them.

 

Yeah really.

 

I haven't gotten much flack in either direction thankfully.  (Meaning nobody pooed on me when I worked for money or when I didn't.) 

[Carol in Cal.]

Yeah, it's important not to confuse value with money.

[heartlikealion]

Yes, sometimes "where are you from?" can be a loaded question. Not always for reasons around race. Sometimes I feel like it's a way for locals to categorize you as an outsider. I don't always offer my birth place for that question. Sometimes I just say the last place I lived, but I know sometimes the reason they ask is because I do not have a Southern accent. I want to ask a new friend where she's from, but I have held off because I'm nervous it might come across as offensive. She is Asian and has an accent.

 

I'm not a huge fan of all alternative question suggestions for "what do you do for a living?" but I think the concept of pushing that question aside and getting to know someone with other questions is nice. I don't know that I'd say, "what are you passionate about?" but I might ask something similar. Depending on the person asking and how the conversation was going, it may not seem like such a strange question. If you just shook someone's hand and they said, "hi. What are you passionate about?" that would be really awkward to me lol.

[Murphy101]

So our passions are ok to ask about but not our origins?

 

Seems a little weird to me.

I don't think it's not okay, I think sometimes it is not used with friendly intent. Which really anything can be.

 

It's no different than I know when people ask me what my dh does for a living, sometimes what they really want to know is whether we are baby popping moochers on the govt dole or is he rich. It never seem to occur to people that one can be neither or both. Yes, the question is the same and on the surface there's nothing at all wrong with it, but we all know a lot of communication is not in the actual words.

[heartlikealion]

This thread reminds me of something I read that essentially said be humble, we all get the same size grave.

 

So our passions are ok to ask about but not our origins?

 

Seems a little weird to me.

 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, to me many questions can be rude if asked with that intent, or even just cluelessly sometimes.

 

OTOH, it's also possible to read your own issues into other people's questions.

 

A lot of rural areas here, most people have lived there forever, so people always ask newcomers where they are from.  I can't imagine seeing that normally as a way to exclude - I mean, everyone there knows you are from away, so people take it for granted.  Usually they are just interested to know your background.

 

 

[G5052]

I grew up with this too. In this area it is still the common, prevailing thought that women should be quiet, stay at home wives, subservient to their husbands. I have been judged A LOT for working outside the home.

 

When dh cut himself so badly a few years back, Jane in NC, Nan in Mass, Creekland, and Regentrude might remember me posting about being a little worried about our deductible and some medical bills related to it, I went to work on weekends in a quilt store, and part-time during the week for a private school teaching an hour per day of chemistry, tutoring in algebra, and teaching a three hour per week ACT prep course as well as doing a little guidance counseling work. I did that so we could pay off those medical bills rapidly and not incur debt. I was ridiculously looked down upon for going into the work force. It was nuts! Around here the hallmark of middle classdom is a stay at home wife. A dear friend of mine has gone back to work to help pay the EFC for their college aged daughter so she doesn't have to take out private loans. The women in her church have all been very catty about it, and have said things to her face like, "Well, a godly woman's place is in the home. Clearly you are outside god's will. Your daughter shouldn't be going to college if it means you have to earn money. Tell your husband to get a second job." And all manner of crap like that.

 

Mostly, I think an awful lot of people in our society are insecure about their lot in life, about their feelings about their lot in life, and feel threatened by someone doing it "differently". They want everyone else to do the same thing they are doing because they think their decisions must be right because "this is what everyone does". Yet, what they really need to do is take ownership of their own choices and butt out of other people's business. Our decisions are informed by our past, by our family culture, by our economics, our communities, our needs, and our families, and that represents a lot of diversity so there isn't any "one right choice". The lifestyle of the couple in the OP is morally neutral, no different from my friend who went back to work. No need for community input or judging.

 

Exactly. When mine were babies, I worked one night a week, "in case."

 

Then as our medical bills pilled up and up, I added more and more hours. Our medical bills have run into the tens of thousands every year for over a decade. No way can DH work more, and up until just recently, my teens couldn't work either. Family couldn't help.

 

And the flack from our church has been ugly at times. Everything from talks at baby showers about how working women are undermining society and people telling me that they were praying that God would restore "proper" order to our family.  There are only three women in a church of several dozen families who work. One of them thankfully is an elder's wife, but it still flares up here-and-there.

 

Frankly if it weren't for DH, I would go elsewhere to church. When we met we attended a church in the same denomination that was far more balanced. I actually go there 4-5 times a year just to refresh and enjoy being with them again, although it's about 90 minutes each way. Both of these churches are in a major metropolitan area BTW. Our current church wasn't as strong that way either when we moved here, but one of the elders comes from a Gothard background. Their family has unfortunately become a major influence, and others have since come with that mindset.

Edited May 26, 2016 by G5052