Explain to Me Being a Non-WOH No-Kid Wife

[Callie]

This thread is weird.

 

I'm never moving to Seattle, the people sound hideous!! I can list a hundred ways my small, poor Midwestern hometown has helped people that you claim society doesn't give a shit about.

I read about benefits for those with cancer, house fire or others disasters almost weekly in my small town newspaper.  They have auctions, fish fries, chili dinners and all sorts of fundraisers year round for people.

 

And in the following weeks paper the family for who the benefit was held will post a "thank you" ad.

[gardenmom5]

part of meis happy I'm out of likes - that means I've been "giving them out".

part of me is sad I'm out of likes - that means I can't . . . .cry.

[Bluegoat]

Just guessing, but maybe she has always been expected to do everything else too on top of working.  I'd be resentful of that as well.

 

Some of my old fashioned family members are extra weird about this.  My grandfather (no longer alive) was so angry over my grandmother getting a job when money was tight that he outright refused to help around the house just to spite her. 

 

I think a lot of people do feel resentful when they see that they have to do more - work at a job and take care of things at home, ageing parents, or that they have to give up something because of the time crunch.

 

I think that is a very human response.

 

And to some extent, it is just inevitable that some people have more work, and maybe that isn't always what they really want.

 

But - it seems to me that what a lot of people have said is that if there was less necessity for every household to have two full incomes, there would probably be a lot more room for people to NOT be in taht situation.  So - it would be an improvement for many if society valued unemployed people's contributions more.

 

What tsuga seems to be arguing is that it would be better for everyone to feel an obligation to work at employment, presumably so we could all feel like we  - I don't know what.  Like we are very busy and don't have time to do things as well as we'd like?  We don't have to notice some people have less work?

 

That seems to me a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[gypsymama]

Tsuga it sounds like you have had things really rough with lots of shady people that didn't support you. I'm very sorry if I'm misinterpreting that and if I'm not I'm VERY sorry for everything you've been through. I have been exposed to crappy people with crappy personalities and I try hard not to let it affect it. Just because my father was a P.O.S. and said I was worthless doesn't make it so. Just b/c my father abused us and said the world would be a better place if I'd never been born doesn't make it so. Just b/c other girls had loving, devoted fathers doesn't make them better daughters than I was. It doesn't make them more worthy of love than me. It doesn't mean I somehow deserved what I got or that I didn't "earn" love. I didn't deserve it. He was a sick man with issues that had nothing to do with me or my family. I AM worthy. I AM a good person and I don't let his attitude bring me down. You can't let other people's prejudices and attitudes write the story of how you value yourself and see life. I know that's easier said than done. I STILL struggle with this. I find myself falling apart and apologizing for "being worthless and everything is my fault" if dh and I have one of our rare fights. I don't let myself stay there though. Every day, every year I get better and better at keeping his voice out of my head. I hope you can find peace and get those awful voices out of your head.

 

(Again if I'm way off base here I'm terribly sorry but my understanding of the comments you've made sounded like you have internalized all sorts of nasty comments about what you are worth and whether or not you have value as a human being just for being you.....  And regardless of what they said  YOU DO :001_wub: )

[Arcadia]

I think OP is looking for something equivalent to the book "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" or "What Colleges Don't Tell You (And Other Parents Don't Want You to Know): 272 Secrets for Getting Your Kid into the Top Schools".

 

She is looking for unwritten rules of the game that supposedly people in the know are hiding so that others cannot rise to their SES.

 

So she is saying what are the rules so that she and her children can benefit. So that odds are to her favor instead of stack against.

 

If you want advice to give your kids tsuga, advise them to marry rich. Seek out wealthy ppl, court them. Marry them with a bulletproof prenup.

 

I mean, that is not invalid advice.

:iagree: reminds me of what Kate Middleton's mom said about trying to increase the odds of her daughters marrying well.

[hornblower]

Tsuga, I hope you read my long post in this thread  :D I spent a lot of time typing that sucker up LOL 


I just want to add another thing - lots of us have rushed to list the things the wife probably does or give her reasons for being a sahw.

I just want to say that even if she does not actually do a whole lot of anything & even if she doesn't have a reason & even if she isn't ill or invisibly disabled or anything all, I think it's still ok for the man to love and adore and treasure her.

 

Just for being.  

 

If they love each other and she's home when he gets home and he can talk to her and she can ease his burdens and share his life and listen to his stories or whatever it is that they like then that's ok too. In my books she doesn't need to pay the bills or have hot meals ready or volunteer....

 

[Arcadia]

DP

Edited May 27, 2016 by Arcadia

[Carol in Cal.]

Only the best ever. Hold onto your butts..

 

Good gosh.  

 

I actually cried.

[gypsymama]

I read about benefits for those with cancer, house fire or others disasters almost weekly in my small town newspaper.  They have auctions, fish fries, chili dinners and all sorts of fundraisers year round for people.

 

And in the following weeks paper the family for who the benefit was held will post a "thank you" ad.

 

When I bartended we did these all the time. Multiple benefits a year. We'd put together a large day fundraiser with jump houses, food, a local cop volunteering in a dunk booth (always a big draw LOL), and more. We also did poker runs between the local bars for the bikers to join. Add in ticket sales, bake sale, and auctioning items donated by local businesses and we would bring in a large amount of money. If it wasn't a big need we'd just set up donation jars and make decent money... bought ALL the baby stuff needed by a young mom that way in one night. We did these for all sorts of things too... housefires, cancer, funeral costs, car accidents, other medical expenses, etc. Great fun for everyone and benefited the community as a whole. The rest of our community also did other things like the chili dinners and fish fries. I swear we must have ate a chili dinner/fish fry at least once a month LOL. 

[LucyStoner]

I was born in seattle. my parents grew up in seattle. I have family members who live in seattle. the city itself can be whacky, but I also know people who are very generous of others.

 

the ONLY person I've ever heard spout anything near what tsuga is saying, is my grandmother. she's from the rural midwest. she grew up a poor farmers dd, and was very resentful of anyone who didn't have it as hard as her perceptions of herself. she would never consider doing anything for someone else. (other than her favorite immediate family members.) however, she had an entitled attitude that people *owed* her.

 

eta: my paternal grandparents were born in seattle/area. (and my grandfather was born in the 19th century)

I think you, Tsuga and I all live near Seattle but not in it.

 

My life is fairly Seattle based- that's where my kids take most of their outsourced classes, that's where many of our HCPs are, where my husband works and where we spend a fair amount of recreational time. I agree with you that these attitudes are not especially common here.

 

In 30ish Seattle/Seattle area based years I have not commonly observed the same attitude that Tsuga is describing. There are a lot of families here who are laid back about all types of work configurations.

Edited May 27, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Joker]

I do not understand the biological and social set ups that would lead a man to give his wealth, while alive, to a woman who is not related to him except by contract. That is what I am asking about. Is there a standard of wife you have to meet?

 

 

 

This is something I don't understand because I don't view my marriage as a contract. Dh is my family. He feels the same. Even if we never had children, he is still my family. Actually, not just my family but the most important person to me in my family. Neither of us view marriage as a piece a paper or contract we've entered into.

 

We want the best for each other and the best for our family. Right now, that means dh works from home and I stay home (not working), even though our dds are both teens and in ps. We will continue this as long as we are able even when they go off to college and move out.

 

It's what works for us and has nothing to do with what standard of wife I am. It's simply what we want to do and we are fortunate right now to be able to do so. 

[Murphy101]

Even in Nazi Germany when everywhere they turned the value of people was basically nothing beyond their work contribution and their blue eyes - there was a solid underground working at threat of their own lives to thwart that "rule" of how to live to get ahead.

 

I don't think we are quite so awful a social system as tsuga seems to think.

 

I think we easily could be. I think any society easily could be.

 

Vigilance is always paramount to preventing that.

 

And even if it was. it wouldn't change a thing about my insistence that it's wrong and my refusal to live by those rules.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Murphy101

[LucyStoner]

This thread is weird.

 

I'm never moving to Seattle, the people sound hideous!! I can list a hundred ways my small, poor Midwestern hometown has helped people that you claim society doesn't give a shit about.

Bear in mind that what Tsuga is describing is not especially widespread. There are at least 3, and I think 4, people who live in the same county as Tsuga posting on this board and aren't sharing her views. I've been in Seattle or close by most all of my life and I wouldn't say this outlook is dominant here. It's also an area with a lot of public and private social services for those in need, formal and informal. Edited May 27, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Murphy101]

Yeah. I'm more than a contractual obligation to my husband. If that is all I was going to be, I wouldn't even want that much.

 

That's a seriously messed up view of what a marriage should be and really has nothing to do even with who is working or not.

[SKL]

Well another thing.  How much does a SAHW actually cost?  If I were a SAHW, I would hardly cost anything.  A little bit of food, but that doesn't count if you net it against the value and savings of home cooked meals for the husband.  The rare purchase of a garment to cover my arse - but that is nothing compared to maid service.  I don't take up much space, and am not too good to live in a small home.  I hardly ever go to the doctor, but if I did it would probably be covered by my mate's subsidized insurance through work.  Why, the tax break for marrying me would cancel out the whole cost of my day-to-day existence.  So, how hard should I really have to work for my keep, even if that were needed?

[Guest]

I read about benefits for those with cancer, house fire or others disasters almost weekly in my small town newspaper. They have auctions, fish fries, chili dinners and all sorts of fundraisers year round for people.

 

And in the following weeks paper the family for who the benefit was held will post a "thank you" ad.

One of my earliest memories is my Dad bidding hundreds of dollars for a pie at a pie supper. And we were poor. Country poor. I didn't understand why my Dad thought that that pie was worth so much when Mom could make him one for free!

[Slojo]

This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I've ever read on this forum.

Oh, I don't know. There's been some bizarre threads. The bizarrest part of this one has been one person trying to communicate against a sizable number of people, and that always makes a thread a little strange. Sounds like Tsuga has had some really difficult, disequilibrium producing experiences in life, and that the woman in her original post triggered some things that maybe were just feeling "settled". I've read bits and pieces of the thread, and think I have the gist. 

 

I think it is hard for many of us to square the realities of someone's life that just don't make sense or align to our realities -- we are just in a "how does that work out for them" moment. I'm not going to say I've never once thought that about someone else's life. And people have certainly thought it about mine, I'm sure (I mean, I'm a homeschooler - a whole lot of people just don't get.how.that.works. LOL!) So there is a piece of me that doesn't want to be too harsh with Tsuga. There are lots of realities that I just can't relate to, and do have a passing, "just how does that work for them" judgments about. That's human. 

 

It may well be that the wife in the OP is or is not "contributing" in her family (there ARE moochers in the world, even in marriages). It may be that the wife in the OP is setting herself up for a "hard fall" later in life -- maybe she is as demanding and not particularly thoughtful as Tsuga has portrayed, and 5 years from now, hubby will walk -- and if she hasn't developed an independent income or way of generating an income, that probably will be a very hard thing to deal with. Thing is - no way for Tsuga to really know the "closed door" situation, and not really her business - not her sister or her daughter, and even then, only so much you can do. (And Tsuga, I agree with the posters who have advised you to "have no opinion" with your co-worker about his marriage - not that you have expressed it, Just best to stay away from 'here's what I think of your marriage' type comments, especially as a female co-worker to the husband. Just not something you want to be in the mix of.)

 

I don't have an opinion of the wife. I can understand that Tsuga's life experience seems to be saying to her that the wife's choices feel unwise or less-than-thoughtful. I think what Tsuga can do is shrug and say, "not my business... but does motivate me to do X, Y, Z in my life." or teach my daughter to keep an oar in the water work-wise or have a plan if life changes, etc... But you don't have to understand the wife or the marriage dynamic -- there's no lesson for you there. Their relationship is what it is. You gloriously have neither a stake in or responsibility for their relationship. (Yay! - life's too hard managing the relationships in which we do have a stake or responsibility. There will be enough to manage with your own life, and with appropriate and loving supports to what is sure to be the wonderful, messy, complicated lives of your close friends and family -- that's enough to keep you busy for a lifetime).

 

I am trying to make sense of contradictions in society by addressing many points--not assuming everyone here believes all the things in the same way.

 

I do recognize that many people have different opinions.

 

 

 

 

But they sure as heck can punish you for not knowing all the rules, and blame you for not doing it the Right Way, so it's best to figure it out. :)

 

Try asking for financial help after a divorce. I assure you, there are many rules and many exceptions that successful people know and follow. They will tell you all about it. But only the ones you screwed up. Having learned my lesson, I am trying to go all pre-emptive.

 

There's not one rule, there are sets of rules. Usually underneath them there is a general set of principles.

 

I was raised by a hippie. She raised me with the "Wouldn't it be nice" principles and now as an adult I am working my way through "Here's how you actually deal with life" principles.

 

As for generalities... easy to tell me that generalities won't apply.

 

But I have to answer to generalities. When I fail, someone is going to come to me and try to prove it was my fault, and that's why I can't go to college / my kids can't go / I can't buy a house. They are not going to come out and say 'well it's complicated'. They are going to give me rules that I should have known. Anyway that's my experience. Just try to get empathy when your life is underwater. Plenty of people will tell you the rules THEN. Why it's your fault.

 

If I had not been repeatedly beaten over the head with a sock full of, "Dude, didn't you know how it worked? What were you expecting?" I probably wouldn't be so insecure and so keen to figure things out. But I got the sense that there was a lot of knowledge people had, well off people, and that they could explain to me. Since they could see so easily how I was going to fail before I even started out. And they would tell me about this in excruciatingly self-congratulatory words as I asked how to get help because I'd screwed up. So they must have some rules. Or instincts. Or something. Otherwise how could they whip out the "what you should have done" so quickly after a fail?

Sounds like you felt undersupported/prepared by your parents. Your mother could only parent you out of her reality - which, if only that she was a woman from a different era, is going to be different than your reality. We can only do what we can do. Your children are likely to say that you didn't prepare them for something either. Oh well! How can you possibly prepare them for all possible realities? Barring neglect or abuse, we're doing the best we can vis a vis our children. 

 

I get what you are saying about the "unspoken rules" of life - I do think there are sometimes unspoken rules, and, yes, sometimes they are delivered in an overly harsh way by unkind people. But I'm not sure 1) that they are so cut and dried, 2) that you can "hear" them until you're ready to hear them and they apply. And even then, grain of salt, grain of salt!  Ten years ago, would any of the lessons you are learning now made sense? There is some amount of "keep on living" that we all have to deal with, and we don't know until we know. I do hope that you have or can cultivate more people in your life that can communicate "the unspoken rules" but also provide genuine support. It doesn't have to be an either/or. Divorce is a doozy for everyone I know that has experienced it, and we have aspects of our culture that can be overly harsh in judging others' "failures."  

 

I would say that "both" realities you've experienced are valid and have value -- your hippie mom (we need hippie, dreamer moms too - many a social movement were born from those hands rocking a cradle or two)/fulfilling but low paying career experience, AND the one you experienced later in life in which you "had to get yours for yourself". Try to celebrate them both for what they brought to your life. 

 

The thing is, you can only deal with life for you and your family. 

 

So what Mrs co-worker and her type do, what they think is successful for them, is irrelevant to you and not really worth you spending mental energy on. There is no rule that they know and you don't. 

Yes, this. And you only see a small bit of her reality (both the good and the bad - and believe me, there's both). She doesn't know something you don't -- and what she knows may not work for you (sounds like it wouldn't/you'd be miserable trying to be in her situation). Sounds like you are doing a great job being you, and don't need to figure out the inner workings of another model for womanhood.   

Edited May 27, 2016 by Slojo

[QueenCat]

Well another thing.  How much does a SAHW actually cost?  If I were a SAHW, I would hardly cost anything.  A little bit of food, but that doesn't count if you net it against the value and savings of home cooked meals for the husband.  The rare purchase of a garment to cover my arse - but that is nothing compared to maid service.  I don't take up much space, and am not too good to live in a small home.  I hardly ever go to the doctor, but if I did it would probably be covered by my mate's subsidized insurance through work.  Why, the tax break for marrying me would cancel out the whole cost of my day-to-day existence.  So, how hard should I really have to work for my keep, even if that were needed?

 

Well, that will really vary, as to how much a SAHW costs or if it equals out in savings. I do buy clothes and like to look good when I leave the house. In fact, gasp, I bought TWO pairs of shoes and a skirt yesterday.... spending all of that man's money, lol.......... Dh almost croaked when he found out what I spend on my hair (he doesn't care that I spend it, we have it, he was just shocked that it costs so much). We do eat out a couple of times a week, and I don't garden (and I do buy bagged salad)..........

[Guest]

Good gosh.

 

I actually cried.

I know! Full reba.

 

I must say "i might have been born just plain white trash..." at least once a day lol. Very uplifting.

[Murphy101]

One of my earliest memories is my Dad bidding hundreds of dollars for a pie at a pie supper. And we were poor. Country poor. I didn't understand why my Dad thought that that pie was worth so much when Mom could make him one for free!

Once when my dad was over he arrived in the middle of a conversation me and the kids were having about Lenten sacrifices. And commented "that's just stupid. It's just people thinking they can buy their way into heaven."

 

I'm sure some people are going to be surprised by how wrong they are then and no, that's not why we were donating milk to the food pantry.

 

But dang. Wouldn't that be a bargain? Some jugs of milk for entry past the pearly gates to heaven for eternity. That's some scam Jesus is running.

 

*smh*

[TammyS]

, what is the value in this.

 

The value is that she is free person making a choice with her life and not burdening anyone.  She doesn't have to work, or do anything else, to justify her existence.

[Slojo]

Well another thing.  How much does a SAHW actually cost?  If I were a SAHW, I would hardly cost anything.  A little bit of food, but that doesn't count if you net it against the value and savings of home cooked meals for the husband.  The rare purchase of a garment to cover my arse - but that is nothing compared to maid service.  I don't take up much space, and am not too good to live in a small home.  I hardly ever go to the doctor, but if I did it would probably be covered by my mate's subsidized insurance through work.  Why, the tax break for marrying me would cancel out the whole cost of my day-to-day existence.  So, how hard should I really have to work for my keep, even if that were needed?

That's variable, and it doesn't matter. My mom cost a lot - not because she is particularly spendy, but because she's had a life-long, somewhat debilitating illness that costs a lot in medical bills to keep her at a good quality of life. But absolutely (of course) of value to our family. When my dad had a bout with cancer, the "tables turned" and she was the most gracious caregiver -- having extra understanding of the ups and downs of being sick/not 100%, in a way that the rest of the family struggled more to understand and respond to because we hadn't lived that experience and developed as much grace (not that we were slouches, but she had a leg up in understanding the psychology of dealing with an ongoing illness). 

 

Sometimes those that look like they are not "contributing as much" or "the greater burden" end up being the very people you need to turn to at a later point in life. Not that you, SKL, were saying that, but I think that's one of the lessons of this thread. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Slojo

[gypsymama]

Well, that will really vary, as to how much a SAHW costs or if it equals out in savings. I do buy clothes and like to look good when I leave the house. In fact, gasp, I bought TWO pairs of shoes and a skirt yesterday.... spending all of that man's money, lol.......... Dh almost croaked when he found out what I spend on my hair (he doesn't care that I spend it, we have it, he was just shocked that it costs so much). We do eat out a couple of times a week, and I don't garden (and I do buy bagged salad)..........

 

LOL I don't spend much on clothes or hair but dh has come home to a random $150 dutch oven purchase before ...  :lol:

[Guest]

LOL I don't spend much on clothes or hair but dh has come home to a random $150 dutch oven purchase before ... :lol:

And don't even get into preferences - my husband requests I get my hair and nails done! I'd not bother with either but he likes them, to the tune of $250 a month :o. Sometimes what looks like a frivolous wife is really a frivolous husband :lol:

 

I told him as long as he could make it work in the budget I'd wear annoyingly long nails ;)

Edited May 27, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[QueenCat]

LOL I don't spend much on clothes or hair but dh has come home to a random $150 dutch oven purchase before ...  :lol:

 

Dh is more likely to come home with one of those than I am.......

 

[TammyS]

 If the love is equal, why aren't the gifts?

 

Because gifts are NEVER equal.  If you're trying to equalize, you aren't giving a gift, you are making an exchange. 

[Murphy101]

And don't even get into preferences - my husband requests I get my hair and nails done! I'd not bother with either but he likes them, to the tune of $250 a month :o. Sometimes what looks like a frivolous wife is really a frivolous husband :lol:

 

I told him as long as he could make it work in the budget I'd wear annoyingly long nails ;)

YES!!!

 

My dh is MUCH more likely to spend money on my clothes, hair and nails than I am. I usually act confused if it's more complicated that reach in the closet for a less stained tshirt and frayed jeans. I don't think I've bought my own clothing in over 20 years. He is downright thrilled I took up knitting bc now he buys yarn and stuff too. I think I've bought maybe 4 skeins on my own. The rest of the stash is all his purchases for me. This is pretty much our entire house. I hate shopping and I hate having lots of stuff to keep and maintain. One of our first marital arguments was dh wanting to buy a sofa bc we didn't have any living room furniture, just two folding lawn chairs, in our first appartment and I thought that was nuts. Lol

[Liz CA]

Ha! I must've missed that one! LOL

 

Search for it...when you have an extra hour and need some deep belly laughs. :lol:

[TammyS]

But if you're a volunteer firefighter who didn't get a raise at his paid job and you go and ask for help when you are sick because the plan doesn't cover your issue, you will see how society values that. You will see becuase they will say "Well why did he choose to volunteer when he could have been working? I worked my whole life and I wanted to volunteer but I didn't and now I'm supposed to pay taxes for his health care?" You will see then.

 

I HAVE seen this.  Repeatedly.  Where I live all of the fire departments are volunteer.  And sometimes men get sick.  And the community rallies around them.  And there are fundraisers, and meals delivered, and child care provided, and rides given.

 

I'm sorry that you lived around nasty people who didn't value your volunteer work.  But please don't believe that the whole world is like that.

[eternalsummer]

Did you miss the part where MORE people voted AGAINST that? You know he lost, right? 

 

(this was originally responding to a post by the OP claiming that Romney wanted to completely cut out all social welfare)

 

----------------------------

 

At any rate, the entire argument is nonsense.  Romney (and most Republicans, and the vast majority of Americans) support a graduated tax rate, where the wealthier pay more; they don't advocate getting rid of the social safety net; most of them even believe in giving foreign aid to poorer countries.

 

On the other hand, if you are making a moral argument that one must believe in the fullest extent possible of those things in order to be loving one's neighbor, you owe a lot more of your income to the poor.

[eternalsummer]

Honestly, the more I read this the more I think you happen to be exposed to or listening to a small segment of people who are just jerks. 

 

Turn off the right wing radio/TV. Spend some time listening to NPR. Maybe read some stuff on The Christian Left page, or listen to Elizabeth Warren's speeches. Realize that the people you are talking about might be the loudest, but they are not the majority. That candidate you mentioned, with the "I built this" individualistic mentality, he LOST. So in other words, more people disagree with that mentality than agree. I think you are stuck in a bubble somewhere with people of that mentality, but they are not the majority in this country, or in this world. They really really aren't. 

 

 

Complete BS.

Conservatives are not jerks for believing that one way of running a society is better than another way.

 

Elizabeth Warren does not give all but 1% of her income to the poor in Africa.  If you are claiming that the Left is morally correct because they believe in more social welfare and higher taxes - that is to say, the standard of moral correctness is how much you are willing to support other people in society to whom you are not related - then liberals fail your standard just as surely as conservatives.  You fail your own standard!

[Guest]

I HAVE seen this. Repeatedly. Where I live all of the fire departments are volunteer. And sometimes men get sick. And the community rallies around them. And there are fundraisers, and meals delivered, and child care provided, and rides given.

 

I'm sorry that you lived around nasty people who didn't value your volunteer work. But please don't believe that the whole world is like that.

Seriously!!

[hornblower]

um, can we not make this about specific political parties and specific politicians?  

I think some people should go back and edit their posts. 

[LucyStoner]

Complete BS.

Conservatives are not jerks for believing that one way of running a society is better than another way.

 

Elizabeth Warren does not give all but 1% of her income to the poor in Africa. If you are claiming that the Left is morally correct because they believe in more social welfare and higher taxes - that is to say, the standard of moral correctness is how much you are willing to support other people in society to whom you are not related - then liberals fail your standard just as surely as conservatives. You fail your own standard!

This is an interesting thread. Let's not see it deleted over partisan political talk.

[TammyS]

I

I do not understand the biological and social set ups that would lead a man to give his wealth, while alive, to a woman who is not related to him except by contract.

 

Now, finally, I understand you, I think.  Perhaps.

 

This, right here, is why, IMO, the gov't should get out of  marriage entirely.  Because it leads people to see marriage as a contract.  Because it turns family into economic exchange.

 

Marriage is not a contract.  Marriage is a covenant.  It is the giving of two persons to each other, completely.  MORE than all that they have, they give all that they ARE.

 

His wife is not "related except by contract".  She is his family.  Not only family, but she is first among family.  Two become one.  That's why he does it.  Because he does not view her as (prostitute, slave, property, business associate, fill in the blank contractual relationship).  When they got married, they created a family, at that very moment, before and regardless of whether there were ever any children.  She is his family.

 

He does it for his family?  Would you not do it for your family?

[Callie]

This is an interesting thread. Let's not see it deleted over partisan political talk.

Agreed.

[Pawz4me]

.

 

I do not understand the biological and social set ups that would lead a man to give his wealth, while alive, to a woman who is not related to him except by contract. That is what I am asking about. Is there a standard of wife you have to meet?

 

Well, this is how it happened for us -- I was on maternity leave and it was the dead of winter and we were debating whether or not I would or should go back to work when my maternity leave was up in early April.  And DH said "You know, I really like coming home and all the lights are on. And I like not having to set the trash out."  And that was that.

 

So I guess those are his standards.  :lol:

 

(Kidding aside--we went into our marriage with the idea that there would never be a "his" or "hers' but only "ours."  That's worked out very well for us.  YMMV.)

[OneStepAtATime]

um, can we not make this about specific political parties and specific politicians?  

 

I think some people should go back and edit their posts. 

 

 

This is an interesting thread. Let's not see it deleted over partisan political talk.

 

 

I agree.  Bringing politics into this will cause this to go off the rails.  

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

Marriage is not a contract.  Marriage is a covenant.  It is the giving of two persons to each other, completely.  MORE than all that they have, they give all that they ARE.

 

 

The trouble is, family law to an ever-increasing extent treats marriage as a contract.  So those who view it covenantally are seriously legally disadvantaged relative to those who don't.

[Callie]

Now, finally, I understand you, I think.  Perhaps.

 

This, right here, is why, IMO, the gov't should get out of  marriage entirely.  Because it leads people to see marriage as a contract.  Because it turns family into economic exchange.

 

Marriage is not a contract.  Marriage is a covenant.  It is the giving of two persons to each other, completely.  MORE than all that they have, they give all that they ARE.

 

His wife is not "related except by contract".  She is his family.  Not only family, but she is first among family.  Two become one.  That's why he does it.  Because he does not view her as (prostitute, slave, property, business associate, fill in the blank contractual relationship).  When they got married, they created a family, at that very moment, before and regardless of whether there were ever any children.  She is his family.

 

He does it for his family?  Would you not do it for your family?

You may be on to something.  Maybe the OP feels that her co-worker values his spouse much more than her partner values her.  And it is leading to some really ugly jealousy. 

[eternalsummer]

This is an interesting thread. Let's not see it deleted over partisan political talk.

 

I 100% did not bring up a political figure or a partisan group.

 

I will be happy to delete mine when the post I responded to is deleted.

 

I don't think the issue has anything to do with politics, either.

[marbel]

Nm.  Reading comprehension problem on my part, I think.

 

Edited May 27, 2016 by marbel

[ktgrok]

YES!!!

 

My dh is MUCH more likely to spend money on my clothes, hair and nails than I am. I usually act confused if it's more complicated that reach in the closet for a less stained tshirt and frayed jeans. I don't think I've bought my own clothing in over 20 years. He is downright thrilled I took up knitting bc now he buys yarn and stuff too. I think I've bought maybe 4 skeins on my own. The rest of the stash is all his purchases for me. This is pretty much our entire house. I hate shopping and I hate having lots of stuff to keep and maintain. One of our first marital arguments was dh wanting to buy a sofa bc we didn't have any living room furniture, just two folding lawn chairs, in our first appartment and I thought that was nuts. Lol

 

Your DH and mine are very similar, I think. He loves to spoil me. In fact, I have a gift card to Soma to buy expensive bras sitting in my purse. He spent SO much money on my birthday, it was obscene. He encourages me to spend money on myself, not just the kids like i tend to do. He loves to spoil me, and I love him.

 

I guess I'm saying, ain't love grand? :)

[Murphy101]

Idk. I actually know two couples that have arranged marriages and they don't share this contract only view of marriage either.

 

I do agree though that should my dh ever decide to ditch me for whatever reason, legally I'm at a disadvantage bc the courts attribute little or no value to me as a sahm and view it mostly as a stupid decision on my part.

[ktgrok]

Complete BS.

Conservatives are not jerks for believing that one way of running a society is better than another way.

 

Elizabeth Warren does not give all but 1% of her income to the poor in Africa.  If you are claiming that the Left is morally correct because they believe in more social welfare and higher taxes - that is to say, the standard of moral correctness is how much you are willing to support other people in society to whom you are not related - then liberals fail your standard just as surely as conservatives.  You fail your own standard!

 

Sorry, the "jerks' part was reffering to the blowhards on television/radio. I can't stand the conservative OR left leaning ones. Because they act like jerks, yelling and putting down the other side. I didn't mean conservative are jerks, not at all! Mea Culpa.

 

And no, I don't believe the Left is morally correct, I think the whole system is a mess, but was trying to provide an alternative to the view she was talking about, because she seemed to think that the view she was discussing was what everyone believed. I was just trying to provide a counterpoint, to show that no one has a monopoly on the "rules" she is talking about. That there is a broad spectrum of belief. 

[Pawz4me]

Not to continue the politics bunny trail, but every time I open this thread the name Ayn Rand runs through my head.  And I don't find it pleasant. ;)

[eternalsummer]

I agree, there is a broad spectrum of belief; I don't know many people, except maybe on the *very* extreme end on either side, like actual anarchists, maybe, or actual full-blown communists, who think either that you owe nothing to your neighbor or that you owe everything to your neighbor.

 

Most people (everyone I've ever met, I guess) think that you owe some kindness and support to your struggling neighbor and that it is natural to reserve the best of your efforts for your family.

 

eta: and they think (and I think) that the latter belief is not contradictory.

 

 

Also, it is true, as a PP mentioned in passing, that women working outside the home as a default position, in order to make more $ for the family or prove their value or whatever, do depress wages.  More workers = lower wages.

 

I wouldn't argue that women must be SAHWs just to preserve good wages, though.

Edited May 27, 2016 by ananemone

[Carol in Cal.]

Not to continue the politics bunny trail, but every time I open this thread the name Ayn Rand runs through my head.  And I don't find it pleasant. ;)

Interestingly enough, Ayn Rand's heroines are usually loved and desired for themselves, not for their paid work.  But I know what you mean.

[Murphy101]

Your DH and mine are very similar, I think. He loves to spoil me. In fact, I have a gift card to Soma to buy expensive bras sitting in my purse. He spent SO much money on my birthday, it was obscene. He encourages me to spend money on myself, not just the kids like i tend to do. He loves to spoil me, and I love him.

 

I guess I'm saying, ain't love grand? :)

Yes it is.😊

[TammyS]

 

 

 

 

 

But they sure as heck can punish you for not knowing all the rules, and blame you for not doing it the Right Way, so it's best to figure it out. :)

 

 

Who is "THEY"?  Who are these people you are so bitter about?